APS solutions

mohatma1

Barbs and archers cannot use most of their skills when equipping fist weapons, but they choose to anyway. This tells me that something is wrong with the current model. High aps weapons not only do more damage than slower weapons, they do so much more damage that people are abandoning everything that makes their class its own class in order to use them.

Here are a couple possible solutions:

1. Change the -int bonuses to positive modifiers to APS so the higher APS weapons don't get such high increases where the lower ones get very low increases. +.13 aps for example rather than -.05 int.

2. Increase damage on slower weapons to account for the lesser effect of a -int bonus on APS when using those weapons so that they all balance out or at least nearly do.

For those of you who are mystified about the relation between APS and -int bonuses like I was until I finally sat down with a calculator, here is a comparison of fist weapons and dual axes. The number that 1 is being divided by is the approximate interval between hits as each piece of -int equipment is added. Notice how little effect there is on APS for the axes compared to the fist weapons. As far as I can tell, this is not accounted for in the damage ratings for weaponry, and it needs to be.

Fists:1.43 base aps or about .7 seconds interval between attacks

1/.65=1.54

1/.60=1.66

1/.55=1.82

1/.50=2.00

1/.45=2.22

1/.40=2.50

1/.35=2.86

1/.30=3.33

1/.25=4.00

---

Dual Axes: .83 base aps or 1.21 seconds between hits

1/1.16=.86

1/1.11=.90

1/1.06=.94

1/1.01=.99

1/.96 =1.04

1/.91 =1.10

1/.86 =1.16

1/.81 =1.24

1/.76 =1.32

1/.71 = 1.41

Sorry for any mistakes in this posting, as I am not a math genius by any stretch of the imagination, but I believe I got it essentially right. If not, I hope you all get a good laugh out of it at least.

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

There wont be a single solution to aps because it makes Pwi money. its either accept it, or quit.

KAZMOENEEK - Heavens Tear

and only skill u need in nirvana is...claw,tangling mire..spark and ep lol

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

They will be no "solution" it simple as that, just realize it..and yeah

mohatma1

You guys seem to have given up on the developers rebalancing the game. The day I give up I will stop playing Perfect World...they made such a good game it would be sad to kill it because of a math error.

The people that spent gobs of money getting high-end aps gear would have spent just as much money on whatever endgame gear was made available to them. And since, under both solutions I offered most of that gear would still be pretty badass since it would actually function with more weapons, I think the backlash would be very minor. If the price of certain fist weapons drops it is a minor thing compared to actually having balanced classes.

Ninnuam - Sanctuary

They could fix it easily. Just take a look at the grim gamble bosses. They won't.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

I'd just like to say that those bosses knocked my minibarb down to about 1 attack per minute. It was painful.

Anyway - to those saying "Balancing APS will cost them money" they could, you know, introduce just as expensive gear for other classes with huge gobs of magic attack and physical attack for the people who like to use skills. (And pets, all too often left out of this...)

However, it seems pretty clear that their actual intent is to reduce the number of mirages people can get (for why?!) instead.

rgog

adding slow debuffs to mobs is kinda stupid, they should just cap APS a little lower at maybe 3.5 that would balance out most classes. They should also change the way -channel gear works so it has some small buff to cast time. That would start to equal things out all around.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

This conversation has been going on for 2 years now. There is no solution. I think the best answer they had was to fix channel cancelling.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This conversation has been going on for 2 years now. There is no solution. I think the best answer they had was to fix channel cancelling.

There is always solutions. Only matters if dev. care about to fix it. It seems, they don't.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

In fairness, this is probably the first thread I've seen on APS that actually states the problem and its origin clearly, and presents an appropriate solution (namely, the first of OP's solutions; the second does not work as the APS calculation is the problem, not the weapons themselves and certainly not non-fist weapons). The only solutions are change the calculation method as suggested, or to lower the APS cap to 2 or 3.



Frankly, although it's easy to accuse PWE of a greedy/uncaring nature (and you wouldn't be wrong in doing so), even that may not be the reason this isn't getting done. Personally, I have a theory that we (that is, PW Beijing) simply have different devs than the originals... as in, most or all of the original devs jumped ship months (if not years) ago. My best guess is that this happened shortly before Rising Tide.

Just look at the recent pattern of updates... "new" instances that aren't really new at all, unnecessary replacements for game elements that worked perfectly well before (I'm looking at you, timed newbie armors >_>)... and the only major updates were the RT and Genesis expansions, which curiously tacked all their new content onto the bottom of the map while sporting complete departures from the game's original theme (though that may be more the fault of artists/musicians).

Perhaps most telling of all is their strange reluctance to modify the original code. That would explain why they haven't fixed APS, rubberbanding, buff overwrite failure (magic shell, blazing arrow, etc.), and similar long-standing problems. Speaking from experience, if you're trying to modify someone else's program and you see a million lines of code, you're more likely to append other things to the end of it all rather than make changes. This is the M.O. of someone who did not have a hand in writing the original code, because someone who did write that code would be far more comfortable with it.



But I digress. Although I must say, coming back from a month's hiatus to find an intelligently-written thread on APS is a rare pleasure indeed. :P Kudos to the OP.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Rank 9 exists and people are still Q.Qing about high dps pve toons?

*facepalm*

Okeano - Harshlands

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In fairness, this is probably the first thread I've seen on APS that actually states the problem and its origin clearly, and presents an appropriate solution (namely, the first of OP's solutions;

Actually, the OP is a moron who just divided a bunch of numbers by 1.

rgog

Rank 9 exists and people are still Q.Qing about high dps pve toons?

I don't understand that statement, can't I get 4 or 5 aps relatively cheap compared to the cost of rank9?

Fenrina - Heavens Tear

Another potential way to at least disrupt aps is to simply provide greater access to -aps stuff. Aps isn't all that great if a boss spams a -150% aps debuff...

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Personally, I have a theory that we (that is, PW Beijing) simply have different devs than the originals... as in, most or all of the original devs jumped ship months (if not years) ago. My best guess is that this happened shortly before Rising Tide.

Given the size of Wanmei, I'd be surprised if we weren't on the 3rd or 4th set of devs. Some people are more willing to work with other people's code.

(It also suggests that the code might not be heavily commented.)

Doqui - Raging Tide

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Anyway - to those saying "Balancing APS will cost them money" they could, you know, introduce just as expensive gear for other classes with huge gobs of magic attack and physical attack for the people who like to use skills. (And pets, all too often left out of this...)

....R9?


My veno can 1 shot about 80% of the server, i'm sure giving me even more Matk would balance things b:bye

Okeano - Harshlands

doqui - Raging Tide wrote: »

....r9?


My Veno Can 1 Shot About 80% Of The Server, I'm Sure Giving Me Even More Matk Would Balance Things B:bye

+1



.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Solutions that cost $1500 are not what I was talking about. But are indeed probably what we'll get more of.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Okeano - Harshlands wrote:

Actually, the OP is a moron who just divided a bunch of numbers by 1.

...wow, trolls these days are awful. >_>

Fenrina - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Given the size of Wanmei, I'd be surprised if we weren't on the 3rd or 4th set of devs. Some people are more willing to work with other people's code.

Agreed. I went general IT instead of Compsci for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that I always felt totally out of place in someone else's code. Kinda feels like you're sitting at someone else's desk in someone else's mess. :P

Fenrina - Heavens Tear wrote: »

(It also suggests that the code might not be heavily commented.)

Also possible.

Fenrina - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Another potential way to at least disrupt aps is to simply provide greater access to -aps stuff. Aps isn't all that great if a boss spams a -150% aps debuff...

Or if it constantly casts reflect on itself.

ijs :P

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Actually, the OP is a moron who just divided a bunch of numbers by 1.

come on math guy, he divided one by a bunch of numbers, dividing by 1 is the same as not doing anything.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Agreed. I went general IT instead of Compsci for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that I always felt totally out of place in someone else's code. Kinda feels like you're sitting at someone else's desk in someone else's mess. :P

there are ways to cope with it, and if you approach it right it can be a great way to learn about coding, but it IS rather like digging through somebody else's underwear drawers. (yes, i do / have done code archaeology for a living. i comment my own new-written code very well, and modularize religiously.)

as for anti-APS, the event bosses this weekend seemed... like food for thought. i only got to do the one in fb51, and that one only twice.

the first run was with a varied squad including high-level melees, and the run went smoothly; i didn't notice anything unusual about the boss, a pretty boring run actually.

the second run was with an all-caster group of comparatively lower levels, and it felt like we were fighting a whole other mob. everyone was getting stunned, channel-slowed, and whatnot, constantly. i could not keep the bugger debuffed for the stun spam. it finally went down and nobody died, but i wish i'd run that squad first and the other one after --- then maybe i'd be better able to tell you what went right the first time and wrong the second.

thinking back, i suspect the first squad's BM and seeker kept the boss stunlocked. or maybe someone was spamming cast-cancels on it then, i should have paid more attention. anyhow, the all-caster squad had a MUCH slower run of it, and suffered much more from those features.

HardToThink - Lost City

I still think a high p-def low m-def in nirvana would be nice. Something not to crazy but maybe one that requires an averagely 7+ refined mage/psy to get through quickly. So then the magic classes could get to help on that boss then do chests =]

Okeano - Harshlands

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

come on math guy, he divided one by a bunch of numbers, dividing by 1 is the same as not doing anything.

b:shocked Damn I keep on ****ing up lately b:cry

Fenrina - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Agreed. I went general IT instead of Compsci for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that I always felt totally out of place in someone else's code. Kinda feels like you're sitting at someone else's desk in someone else's mess. :P

Oh yeah, no doubt about that. o.o;;

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Or if it constantly casts reflect on itself.

ijs :P

True, but -% aps would work better. Reflect would reflect skills to so there wouldn't be as much pressure to move away from aps.

mohatma1

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Actually, the OP is a moron who just divided a bunch of numbers by 1.

Classic. I hope you didn't make yourself look stupid in all those thousands of posts...read and then think before you type maybe...

mohatma1

Regarding the theory that the original devs are gone, that actually does make sense. But, that doesn't absolve PWI from not hiring new devs that are capable of fixing such code. If the current ones can't fix it, maybe they need to be replaced...

My wife is currently downloading League of Legends to start searching for another game to play if and when I give up on PW getting fixed. I seriously love PW and have played it for years, but eventually I'm going to have to find a game that isn't broken.

Okeano - Harshlands

mohatma1 wrote: »

Classic. I hope you didn't make yourself look stupid in all those thousands of posts...read and then think before you type maybe...

You must think you are pretty smart and was the first person to come up with a "solution" to high APS. You are too stupid to understand that it's not there isn't a good solution but the devs simply don't care for a solution. Stupid threads deserves stupid replies.

mohatma1

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

You must think you are pretty smart and was the first person to come up with a "solution" to high APS. You are too stupid to understand that it's not there isn't a good solution but the devs simply don't care for a solution. Stupid threads deserves stupid replies.

How come yours was the only stupid reply then?

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

You must think you are pretty smart and was the first person to come up with a "solution" to high APS. You are too stupid to understand that it's not there isn't a good solution but the devs simply don't care for a solution. Stupid threads deserves stupid replies.

Most people who suggest "solutions" for APS just invent something completely irrelevant to the problem itself... i.e. they suggest buffing casters, buffing flesh ream etc... those things aren't the problem, the problem is the APS cap and calculation. I've been saying this for at least a year, and this is the first person who made a thread about that. There is a good solution, and although the devs aren't implementing it (for whatever reason), that doesn't make the thread stupid.

Honestly, between this and the "1" gaffe, I'd suggest you quit while you're ahead, man. XD

Fenrina - Heavens Tear wrote: »

True, but -% aps would work better. Reflect would reflect skills to so there wouldn't be as much pressure to move away from aps.

But most melee skills aren't designed to inflict massive DPS... except maybe for sins, but if casters can deal with X Immunity bosses, sins can deal with reflect bosses. Even so, skill DPS pales in comparison to 5aps DPS, meaning it is far, far less likely to kill the user in comparison to a 5aps user.

What a reflect boss would accomplish is favoring skills with low DPS but high hate generation used by characters with very high HP. Hmm, didn't we have a class like that at one point? One that wishes its usefulness might come back...? o.o

Fenrina - Heavens Tear

mohatma1 wrote: »

Regarding the theory that the original devs are gone, that actually does make sense. But, that doesn't absolve PWI from not hiring new devs that are capable of fixing such code.

There is one other aspect to this. It is not a coding issue. The code itself is working fine. The issue is one of balance. The 5 aps cap exists because when the game was originally coded, it was assumed no one would ever get that high. If a bug or glitch somehow allowed massive aps* then the cap would limit the damage done.

*I've seen evidence that the game engine can handle 18aps or higher without missing a beat. Granted, that was in JD, not PWI.

Edit:

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But most melee skills aren't designed to inflict massive DPS... except maybe for sins, but if casters can deal with X Immunity bosses, sins can deal with reflect bosses. Even so, skill DPS pales in comparison to 5aps DPS, meaning it is far, far less likely to kill the user in comparison to a 5aps user.

What a reflect boss would accomplish is favoring skills with low DPS but high hate generation used by characters with very high HP. Hmm, didn't we have a class like that at one point? One that wishes its usefulness might come back...? o.o

True.

Either way, it looks one of the better solutions is to just suppress it via outside influences. o.o Oh, the devs could use the veno's bramble spells for that in pvp.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Fenrina - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There is one other aspect to this. It is not a coding issue. The code itself is working fine. The issue is one of balance. The 5 aps cap exists because when the game was originally coded, it was assumed no one would ever get that high. If a bug or glitch somehow allowed massive aps* then the cap would limit the damage done.

*I've seen evidence that the game engine can handle 18aps or higher without missing a beat. Granted, that was in JD, not PWI.

Yeah.

I wasn't going to bring this up in my initial theory, but... admittedly, it does stretch one's threshold of disbelief to think that this one number in the code can't be manually changed, even by the most incompetent of devs. Unless they can't find it at all, which would be hilarious (and would probably warrant someone being paid to do an exhaustive search on the number "5" XD).

As far as hiring new devs, yeah... that's what we need to be demanding. Devs that don't suck.