Community's opinion on APS [Poll]

Empu - Sanctuary

The exponential growth is a problem imo.
However the biggest problem is not the aps itself, it's the ppl taking it as only possible ultimate way. Fastest vana ever for me (didn't time, but was under 10min), no 5 aps involved; Fastest kill on Snakefist, no 5 aps involved (I was even the only sin, and 1 bm). Still everyone "need 4+ aps DD" for anything, even for FCC!!!! That is the biggest problem for me, and driving me insane.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

_Aubree__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

and...





Read again so you dont feel so foolish. I was merely disproving his point about coin/cash spent = to the rewards. At no where did I say I should have this or that..

I bolded it for you so you can keep up b:cute

If you think you suck so much then you probably just can't play your class.


He said that the same amount of coin/cash spent is the same amount of rewards. You spend more and you will be better at what you do. He did NOT say that you will be able to do the exact same things.


What did you build your character for? Now the extra time and money spent to develop that character means you are more effective at what you decided to build for.

You took it as spend enough cash/coin and you will be able to solo bosses, which he never said.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you think you suck so much then you probably just can't play your class.


He said that the same amount of coin/cash spent is the same amount of rewards. You spend more and you will be better at what you do. He did NOT say that you will be able to do the exact same things.


What did you build your character for? Now the extra time and money spent to develop that character means you are more effective at what you decided to build for.

You took it as spend enough cash/coin and you will be able to solo bosses, which he never said.

I play my class fine. I never said I sucked. I just proved the person I quoted as wrong. But lets go into blood paint. Pretty much takes clerics for heals out of the game. No need to heal other casters who cannot even get squads and only merchant too right? I never get turned down for squads blah blah blah.

Yes he did..

Zeyar - Dreamweaver wrote: »

not one of those stupidity again b:cold

y do i see the majority of ppl complaining abt aps r lower lvls or mediocre players ? who refuse to spend as much $ or time as those aps players ? u know, if u spend as much RL money OR time merchanting like them, ur char might be as good as them b:shutup

Aps classes squeeze other classes out of playing. Proven by how many times you or some other aps person tells them to merchant. they dont need to play the game. -int gets the biggest increase than any other attribute in the game. Thats fact. That is also the topic of this thread.

Escorian - Dreamweaver

no bp takes away from pve aspect not the pvp part of it clerics are still needed to keep barbs alive in tw and also can pk and 1 shot people too. b:bye

edit: not to mention archers still need clerics if they tank and not EVERY squad is so over powered geared they dont need a cleric you just have it stuck in your head they are. and yes i mean 5.0 squads too.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

no bp takes away from pve aspect not the pvp part of it clerics are still needed to keep barbs alive in tw and also can pk and 1 shot people too. b:bye

edit: not to mention archers still need clerics if they tank and not EVERY squad is so over powered geared they dont need a cleric you just have it stuck in your head they are. and yes i mean 5.0 squads too.

she is not talking only about clerics, also for other caster classes. even with r9, they can never compete in pve with 5aps. i dont think aps should be reduced tho. sure its comfortable sometimes for me as cleric, but its not fair to other classes generaly. bms, archers and whoever else worked hard for their nirvana gear to rise their aps, so i find it unfair to reduce it (imo unless its sin). but at least add something for casters, so they can work towards it and compete with aps in pve.
pve is still the base and should be taken as main content of the game. no need to be that egoistic and think that only meeles should have the privilege to kill the bosses fast.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

no bp takes away from pve aspect not the pvp part of it clerics are still needed to keep barbs alive in tw and also can pk and 1 shot people too. b:bye

edit: not to mention archers still need clerics if they tank and not EVERY squad is so over powered geared they dont need a cleric you just have it stuck in your head they are. and yes i mean 5.0 squads too.

I was talking about pve and not pvp. And yes ofc I know about archers, Im married to DrAgOOnZ, but you already know that. But think too... all those 5aps archers are running with the 5aps bms, barbs and sins. Not with caster. My point stands. And if casters are afking all week just for TW, I dont know that that can be rewarding for them. Some people still like squadding and farming in groups of friends etc. Yes they can make an all caster squad but this 5aps toons are so greedy. I know a 5aps toon who left their real life best friend who is a wizard all alone during the 2x drops. I thought that was extremely screwed up. But it was either that or not make as much coin with that op 5aps squad right?

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

but at least add something for casters, so they can work towards it and compete with aps in pve.

not sure about you, but I personally have a group of 5.0 damage dealing friends that i work together with, rather than competing with. Perhaps people are looking at things the wrong way here. Rather than attempting to compete for a spot on the squad in place of a 5.0 DD - make friends with said damage dealer and go on runs with them. If you can't manage to do that much, perhaps roll a class that gets requested on said farm runs (BM, Sin, 5.0 archer, cleric). That one toon doesn't even have to be the best of the best in order to make for a quickish run, so long as they know how to help maximize the squads overall damage.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

not sure about you, but I personally have a group of 5.0 damage dealing friends that i work together with, rather than competing with. Perhaps people are looking at things the wrong way here. Rather than attempting to compete for a spot on the squad in place of a 5.0 DD - make friends with said damage dealer and go on runs with them. If you can't manage to do that much, perhaps roll a class that gets requested on said farm runs (BM, Sin, 5.0 archer, cleric). That one toon doesn't even have to be the best of the best in order to make for a quickish run, so long as they know how to help maximize the squads overall damage.

i dont like to play melee classes, neither i like to invest money in a char that i might end up hating to play.
i m not complaning as cleric. but i do read the worldchat. since they all want aps, then its aps that copmetits with casters like wiz, pys etc.....competition to get into those squads. someone did post before a thread about "its hard to make friends nowdays", at some certain point its true. i never saw so much greed amongs players as now (+scam) and i can asure you, even a "friend" would take an aps into their squad to save 5min, then inviting a wiz into their squad. its not my personal exp. but i was in big factions (before i quit playing my cleric) and i did read what people said and how they acted.
honestly...aps just hate to go with casters to nirvana, cause they prefer 10min run and not 20. thats what i saw and read from other players and i m sure in any other faction it wasnt different at all. if i rely always on my friends to take me always in their squads, i would be broke by now (not cause i lack skills, its just a matter of timing).

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i dont like to play melee classes, neither i like to invest money in a char that i might end up hating to play.
i m not complaning as cleric. but i do read the worldchat. since they all want aps, then its aps that copmetits with casters like wiz, pys etc.....competition to get into those squads. someone did post before a thread about "its hard to make friends nowdays", at some certain point its true. i never saw so much greed amongs players as now (+scam) and i can asure you, even a "friend" would take an aps into their squad to save 5min, then inviting a wiz into their squad. its not my personal exp. but i was in big factions (before i quit playing my cleric) and i did read what people said and how they acted.
honestly...aps just hate to go with casters to nirvana, cause they prefer 10min run and not 20. thats what i saw and read from other players and i m sure in any other faction it wasnt different at all. if i rely always on my friends to take me always in their squads, i would be broke by now (not cause i lack skills, its just a matter of timing).

i suppose then that I am blessed to have 3 5.0 sins in my faction and am friends with the leader of Millenia who is now 5.0 (I believe) BM with Striking Dragons (his wife being a wizard - who we bring along), and have a 102 cleric in faction whose son is a well geared BM and comes along to help out from time to time. But.. I've been around on this server for quite some time now.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i suppose then that I am blessed to have 3 5.0 sins in my faction and am friends with the leader of Millenia who is now 5.0 (I believe) BM with Striking Dragons (his wife being a wizard - who we bring along), and have a 102 cleric in faction whose son is a well geared BM and comes along to help out from time to time. But.. I've been around on this server for quite some time now.

i m also since 2009 here and i did realise the change. i remember the days when we almost bowed to lvl100 people out of respect. today its not a big achievement to reach lvl100 and nothing to be proud of. time changed, playerbase changed, skills changed. i dont mind 5aps generally at all and honestly, i like barbs going aps even (going with the time) cause i do know they are pretty much useless after reaching high level, unless as catas or buff slave. i really want this class to rise again, along with casters. i just dont like how 5aps run to forums and say "you hit harder in tw, so it makes us even"...its an event once a week, that many of us dont attend. that doesnt justify a 5aps to have the only privileg to farm instances, while other classes are still searching for squads.
if someone reaches 5aps, grats, you worked hard for it. but dont be ignorant, cause not one caster can compete with 5aps on demage. thats why i would like to see a change here as well.

xD and now i m going to bed.

Escorian - Dreamweaver

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I was talking about pve and not pvp. And yes ofc I know about archers, Im married to DrAgOOnZ, but you already know that. But think too... all those 5aps archers are running with the 5aps bms, barbs and sins. Not with caster. My point stands. And if casters are afking all week just for TW, I dont know that that can be rewarding for them. Some people still like squadding and farming in groups of friends etc. Yes they can make an all caster squad but this 5aps toons are so greedy. I know a 5aps toon who left their real life best friend who is a wizard all alone during the 2x drops. I thought that was extremely screwed up. But it was either that or not make as much coin with that op 5aps squad right?

thats not pwi's fault that players choose to run with aps only. its the players fault. i run with every class there is i dont care. and on top of that not all 5 aps can go without clerics is what i said. i know alot of archers and sins and bms even who cant solo because their gear isnt uber refined.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

thats not pwi's fault that players choose to run with aps only. its the players fault. i run with every class there is i dont care. and on top of that not all 5 aps can go without clerics is what i said. i know alot of archers and sins and bms even who cant solo because their gear isnt uber refined.

I would say it is mostly their fault for how -int works at such an advantage to any other attribute you can aquire.

Escorian - Dreamweaver

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I would say it is mostly their fault for how -int works at such an advantage to any other attribute you can aquire.

not really. 5 aps doesnt help at all in pk and you cant even get 5 aps till your level 99. yes im an aps bm but i still think that aps is fair for what you have to spend on it and how long you have to wait to get to 5.0

edit: let me rephrase that 5.0 isnt as useful in pk as 1 shotting a player before they can even get close to you.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

not really. 5 aps doesnt help at all in pk and you cant even get 5 aps till your level 99. yes im an aps bm but i still think that aps is fair for what you have to spend on it and how long you have to wait to get to 5.0

Fair would have been if they didnt cap channeling since it is the opposing attribute to -int. As for pk, if you are crying about caster damage, HA gets like 2x the hp than casters get per refine. HP costs us 2x as much as it does you. Thats why damage by caster is more. It is supposed to work that way. HA gets more speed, caster are slower. If you have higher survivability you get lower damage. Not like casters can use the pdef ones as efficiently or get nearly as much hp or pdef per armor piece.

And you dont even pk right? So you are just QQ to just QQ LOL.

Edit: Just to add in psys are OP and do need a nerf. Theres something wrong with them lol

Escorian - Dreamweaver

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Fair would have been if they didnt cap channeling since it is the opposing attribute to -int. As for pk, if you are crying about caster damage, HA gets like 2x the hp than casters get per refine. HP costs us 2x as much as it does you. Thats why damage by caster is more. It is supposed to work that way. HA gets more speed, caster are slower. If you have higher survivability you get lower damage. Not like casters can use the pdef ones as efficiently or get nearly as much hp or pdef per armor piece.

And you dont even pk right? So you are just QQ to just QQ LOL.

Edit: Just to add in psys are OP and do need a nerf. Theres something wrong with them lol

im not qqing here you are lol im stating a fact here. magic classes get to 1 shot people INCLUDING HA so lets see... ha 1 shot what good does all that hp do again? oh wait i should make a QQ thread since my high hp is useless compared to a wizzy 1 shotting. oh and i would like to mention most 5.0 bms have less pdef then a demon wiz with demon stone barrier.

Namari - Dreamweaver

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Edit: Just to add in psys are OP and do need a nerf. Theres something wrong with them lol

Hey, hey, hey, I resent that! Psys are not OP! That's like saying that sins are OP!



Wait...b:avoid

But yeah, there was a time where I was in the "can't beat them, join them" mentality. Which is why I made a sin. But then I realized...

I freaking hate playing melee classes, and while sins are fun, it was a class that was doomed for me to not level past 85. At least not for a very long time. So should my type of play be dampened by some people who like to take an aps class over my psy even though she may be just as well geared as the one they replaced me with? Nah. That's where my fiance comes in--like he said, he doesn't mind running with anyone. And he knows damn well that if he ever decides to ditch me in farming squads, he wouldn't be...erm...nvm.

But yeah, I don't give a damn either way.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i know alot of archers and sins and bms even who cant solo because their gear isnt uber refined.

because this day and age its all about maximizing damage output to make things faster, at the cost of survivability. Ive been on a few runs where the cleric dc'd and one by one the BMs, archers, assasins - even when charmed - dropped dead, all the while I was trying to hold aggro off them with ream, but they'd continue to triple spark thinking BP would keep them alive when it ultimately did not. Then it was down to me and the veno, who I could actually keep aggro from - finishing the bosses out. Sure it took longer.. but i could positively say "at least I didn't die". 5.0 in and of itself isn't broken at all - its people's decisions to build in such a manner that they have high damage output / low survivability.

@ColdSnow - even though you are likely in bed now: I personally think that barbs are far from "useless" in this game even still. Not everyone as many seem to think / claim is 5.0. Sure theres a good deal who are, but there's a lot more who aren't than are. Fact of the matter is that at end game, any decently built player of any class has the capacity to tank a boss - I don't think barbs were ever 100% essential for that role in all honesty. However, there is undoubtedly a specific role each class was designed to fulfill from conception. The way that I personally see it, the whole purpose of playing the game, farming gear, getting to end game - is for TW. At end game, what else is there? Events for sure.. but at the end of the day, all the "event" gear is completely unnecessary for PvE. Barbs are certainly still in high demand for Delta runs. I know for a fact that no other class has the pulling capabilities that a barbarian does. Wizards, hands down, are the absolute best damage dealers in delta - i would take one of those over a 5.0 sin any day for delta.

There are always ways to make coin in this game if you look in the right places. Lets say for instance a squad of 5.0 damage dealers does nirvana every day, using their 3 free keys + 1 from BH 1. With an average earning of about 400-500k per person per run in a full squad - thats 1.6 - 2 mil. Depending on their speed it might take them 40-80 minutes to make that coin. OTOH, a full squad of 6 goes and does delta each day - about 3 hours worth of game play - each member will come out with at least 2.2 mil. Sure the income / hour isn't quite as high as a 5.0 farming squad - but its still more than you had before.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

im not qqing here you are lol im stating a fact here. magic classes get to 1 shot people INCLUDING HA so lets see... ha 1 shot what good does all that hp do again? oh wait i should make a QQ thread since my high hp is useless compared to a wizzy 1 shotting. oh and i would like to mention most 5.0 bms have less pdef then a demon wiz with demon stone barrier.

Everytime I see a bm complain about getting one shot, I know they havent been using their skills correctly. Someone once asked Ajay which class scares him most in PK. He said None. Well when he stopped by last time and did some pking, r9 sins didnt beat him, wizards didnt beat him. Jamis psy whipped his butt. BM have magic marrow too, so gives you a lot of mag resists plus you get better hp, plus you can use magic def charms. If a 5aps gets the stun off on me Im done period. BM gets antistun skill. How many casters do? So you may think HP has little to do with it but it has much to do adding, in the rest of your skills. I understand you dont pk, so you dont know how to use skills for pk. But for the ones that do, they dont get scared of casters. Not all wizards go for demon, but all BM do have magic marrow.

Im not qqing. Im stating arguments to everything you post that is really narrow minded. BM is a very good class to play. And if played correctly is a top PKer and PVPer just like sin.

@Namari, yea sorry didnt mean to impy sins were OP and the reason I dont pk anymore. b:chuckle

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

because this day and age its all about maximizing damage output to make things faster, at the cost of survivability. Ive been on a few runs where the cleric dc'd and one by one the BMs, archers, assasins - even when charmed - dropped dead, all the while I was trying to hold aggro off them with ream, but they'd continue to triple spark thinking BP would keep them alive when it ultimately did not. Then it was down to me and the veno, who I could actually keep aggro from - finishing the bosses out. Sure it took longer.. but i could positively say "at least I didn't die". 5.0 in and of itself isn't broken at all - its people's decisions to build in such a manner that they have high damage output / low survivability.

More like it isn't necessary. If I glitch tiger form with claws I have 5.0 aps with 14.5k hp, and I can tank just about every instance in the game. Delta gives me a bit of trouble but as long as I pay attention I'm fine, and this is with a base VIT of 20 and an average refine of +4

Im not qqing. Im stating arguments to everything you post that is really narrow minded. BM is a very good class to play. And if played correctly is a top PKer and PVPer just like sin.

Maybe, and I mean MAYBE, in a 1vs1, even then he's at a severe disadvantage.

In group pvp/TW? A BM is lucky to get a few stuns off and maybe even a HF before he gets completely facerolled. Most BMs I've talked to in large TW guilds say that on a front line they only last as long as their irongaurd.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

More like it isn't necessary. If I glitch tiger form with claws I have 5.0 aps with 14.5k hp, and I can tank just about every instance in the game. Delta gives me a bit of trouble but as long as I pay attention I'm fine, and this is with a base VIT of 20 and an average refine of +4




Maybe, and I mean MAYBE, in a 1vs1, even then he's at a severe disadvantage.

In group pvp/TW? A BM is lucky to get a few stuns off and maybe even a HF before he gets completely facerolled. Most BMs I've talked to in large TW guilds say that on a front line they only last as long as their irongaurd.

LOL no wonder you are a one shot lmao probably 99% of the time. Also Im talking from what I know from experienced bm. You are not one of them. And yes bms will die very fast when stunning and hfing in tw cause abut 12 people will target them immediately.

And I spent over a year in a top tw guild.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

LOL no wonder you are a one shot lmao probably 99% of the time. Also Im talking from what I know from experienced bm. You are not one of them. And yes bms will die very fast when stunning and hfing in tw cause abut 12 people will target them immediately.

And I spent over a year in a top tw guild.

eh.. i dueled a rank 9 wiz once just to see how much damage they could do to me in a single hit. he sage sparked -> BIDS and i got hit for 55k. The only way i can see of getting around being one shot by that is to be rank 9 myself with max refines and shards. Even then - if im purged and amped, I'm one dead cat if that wizard gets said combo off.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

eh.. i dueled a rank 9 wiz once just to see how much damage they could do to me in a single hit. he sage sparked -> BIDS and i got hit for 55k. The only way i can see of getting around being one shot by that is to be rank 9 myself with max refines and shards. Even then - if im purged and amped, I'm one dead cat if that wizard gets said combo off.

When I compare damage from others, I always try to think of it like this. They have r9 wep +10, my armors should also be r9 +10. Otherwise just an unfair comparison. Thats one of the reasons as a cleric I always worked gear>wep. I needed the survivability for tw. Also hope you aren't one of those pdef barbs, with pdef orns. I see so many of those. Also as a barb if I see a 3spark, you better believe im going to invoke.

azurluen

Yah, since APS are so OP, instead of complaining, I'm building my own. Not easy, because I'm not http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/images/buttons/submit_reply.gifcashopper and that, but possible. =o_O=

EDIT: Why the hell did that word transformed into that link?

Dralighte - Harshlands

to balance the game, we need to put more APS at the boss....

Quilue - Sanctuary

Uh...how does having R9 save you from being 1 shot in that case? The only defensive bonus that R9 offers over Nirvana is like 20 def levels, which is conveniently countered by Jone's. If you get hit for 55k without R9, you get hit for 49k with R9...and did the BIDS crit?

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

Ya'll just are arguing for the sake of argument now <.<;;

SeaCrit_Sin - Harshlands

APS is fair because every player has the option to roll a character that can take advantage of it. It takes a good amount of time/money to accomplish, but it can be done.


Now with that said, I do feel that it has greatly diminished the fun and dynamics of PWI. APS has directly effected the diversity of squads and the number of people playing (or not playing) certain classes. I personally feel that a good MMORPG should showcase pve challenges that are best approached by diverse squads, and involve more than just auto-attacking.


People will likely argue my opinion, and thats fine. They are equally entitled to their own. One thing that is not based on opinion however, is that aps has resulted in players finishing Nirvana in 10 minutes or less, and soloing even the most difficult of all world bosses. Granted, these players have epic gear and well deserve to be among the elite... but it is a clear cut example of how aps has contributed to making even "endgame pve" far too easy. Player's capabilites have advanced much quicker than game content, and the changes to 3-# does not really suffice.

b:sleep

Namari - Dreamweaver

SeaCrit_Sin - Harshlands wrote: »

APS is fair because every player has the option to roll a character that can take advantage of it. It takes a good amount of time/money to accomplish, but it can be done.

Yeah, but why should those who want to play a non-aps class be forced to suffer or re-roll just so they can keep up with the game's ever-changing trend? Why should I, who said earlier in this thread, hate playing melee classes roll one just so I can gear up my psy that can be awesomely geared, but still can't compete with aps?

The way it is now, it's well...if you play a caster, better have friends, great merchanting skills, or an aps farmer, or you're practically screwed.

TigerLily - Lost City

Namari - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yeah, but why should those who want to play a non-aps class be forced to suffer or re-roll just so they can keep up with the game's ever-changing trend? Why should I, who said earlier in this thread, hate playing melee classes roll one just so I can gear up my psy that can be awesomely geared, but still can't compete with aps?

The way it is now, it's well...if you play a caster, better have friends, great merchanting skills, or an aps farmer, or you're practically screwed.

It was like that way before aps, 3 years ago as well. Casters where not included when farming. You average party consisted archer as DDs, veno, barb and cleric. Now its a bunch or sins/bms instead.

Its pretty much common sense/knowledge that you dont go make a caster as first char unless you know how to merchant well or just cash shop. Cleric would be the only exception since they have a special role as healer.

Also how many people only play 1 class...

Even the casual players today have at least 1 high level alt as well as their main. Its really just people who recently started playing who only uses 1 class and as soon as they get it to 100 they tend to start Frosting a new one at some point.

Classes should obviously be balanced individually in both pvp and pve, but until that happens (which is never) its better to adjust than being miserable.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

LOL no wonder you are a one shot lmao probably 99% of the time. Also Im talking from what I know from experienced bm. You are not one of them. And yes bms will die very fast when stunning and hfing in tw cause abut 12 people will target them immediately.

And I spent over a year in a top tw guild.

You are aware that's with my -interval gears and not the gears I'm using for PK right? I don't think I'm running around PK with an ashura's necklace.