Community's opinion on APS [Poll]

Eleabrylla - Sanctuary

Is it fair that Attacks Per Second get increasing returns from -interval on gear?

(While almost everything else in this game has diminishing returns.)

fuzzywuzz

Fuzzy suspects this thread will simply degenerate into madness like all the others on the same issue, however the panda will leave it open for now. However, if it does spiral out of control, Fuzzy will close it.


b:surrender

Miugre - Heavens Tear

It just seems like a simple example of bad coding. -_- I very much wish it were re-coded so that APS would behave like the other stats.

Yeah Fuzzy, it'd be nice to just post polls without allowing comments, wouldn't it? ._.

(inb4flimsyjustificationsofOPness)

Asthariel - Dreamweaver

/inb4flamebait

And to answer, I chose no, but I won't start explanations since it seems fairly obvious and I don't wanna start a flame war o.o

Aranarwa - Heavens Tear

Simple and short answer: no

(voted "No" too off course b:chuckle)

Olbaze - Sanctuary

I'm an assassin so of course I am biased so answering would be pointless.

But just a hint: A sin can out-dps a 4 aps bm with only 2.22 aps.

Dezto - Harshlands

The whole APS/interval discussion here is pointless.

If you want something like this to change then go over to the PW-CN forums and post it there.

Next topic: Community's opinion on channeling/soulforce/defense levels/etc.!

Nael - Dreamweaver

Am I the only one who doesn't understand what the OP is talking about?

Seems to me like OP is saying -int should be a negative thing because it's got negative sign on it...

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Nael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Am I the only one who doesn't understand what the OP is talking about?

Seems to me like OP is saying -int should be a negative thing because it's got negative sign on it...

Um, no. What he is saying is this: due to the mechanics of -interval, the more you have it, the better the effect of the next -interval piece you get, e.g. 0.5-0.05 = 0.45 (2.0-> 2.22, 0.22 gain), vs. 0.45 - 0.05 = 0.4 (2.22 -> 2.5, 0.28 gain). And he's asking if this is fair in the light that most other things, such as defenses, attack and defense levels, skill damage, -channeling and +matk/patk all work the opposite way: the more you have, the less you gain from the next increment.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Nael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Am I the only one who doesn't understand what the OP is talking about?

Seems to me like OP is saying -int should be a negative thing because it's got negative sign on it...

It's like pdef/mdef. Have you ever noticed that the more pdef you put on, say, a BM (through Bell/Marrow/Cleric buff, etc.) the less of a physical reduction % each buff gives? You need more and more pdef to get the same effect. Even Buddha's Guard (+1000% pdef) can't bring a BM to 100% physical resistance.

The OP is suggesting that APS should work in this manner... basically that stacking more -int gear should result in fewer, rather than more, cumulative bonuses per piece.

EDIT: Damnit ninja'd. XD

Zeyar - Dreamweaver

not one of those stupidity again b:cold

y do i see the majority of ppl complaining abt aps r lower lvls or mediocre players ? who refuse to spend as much $ or time as those aps players ? u know, if u spend as much RL money OR time merchanting like them, ur char might be as good as them b:shutup

in short, these players worked for it either in game or in RL.
there is no cheap -int gear where -CT gears r cheaper

how abt starting a QQ thread abt R9 wiz/psy/arch 1shotting everybody and their grandmas in TW ?
like we should cap aps at 2.22 or something and cap casters dmg at 10k per hit max ? b:sin

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary

Dezto - Harshlands wrote: »

If you want something like this to change then go over to the PW-CN forums and post it there.

That's pointless also. You should see the complaint about 5.0 on their forum.

_Aubree__ - Dreamweaver

Zeyar - Dreamweaver wrote: »

not one of those stupidity again b:cold

y do i see the majority of ppl complaining abt aps r lower lvls or mediocre players ? who refuse to spend as much $ or time as those aps players ? u know, if u spend as much RL money OR time merchanting like them, ur char might be as good as them b:shutup

in short, these players worked for it either in game or in RL.
there is no cheap -int gear where -CT gears r cheaper

how abt starting a QQ thread abt R9 wiz/psy/arch 1shotting everybody and their grandmas in TW ?
like we should cap aps at 2.22 or something and cap casters dmg at 10k per hit max ? b:sin

Level 103 cleric and I voted no. By your assumption if I spent as much you on my gear, I should be every bit as good. But it isn't true. Dragons orbs cost me the same as you, but I will never reach the same damage out put with equivalent gears and refines. I have +10 r9 and just as many channeling pieces as an -int user would need for 5aps, but I will never be able to solo a boss in as much time as it takes aps people. And sins should be capped at 2.22 imo.

HeavensRage - Raging Tide

This thread is new and exciting.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Zeyar - Dreamweaver wrote: »

not one of those stupidity again b:cold

y do i see the majority of ppl complaining abt aps r lower lvls or mediocre players ? who refuse to spend as much $ or time as those aps players ? u know, if u spend as much RL money OR time merchanting like them, ur char might be as good as them b:shutup

in short, these players worked for it either in game or in RL.
there is no cheap -int gear where -CT gears r cheaper

how abt starting a QQ thread abt R9 wiz/psy/arch 1shotting everybody and their grandmas in TW ?
like we should cap aps at 2.22 or something and cap casters dmg at 10k per hit max ? b:sin

Here's a hint: people complaining about aps =/= wanting to be "as good" as aps players. -_- The PVP system has a lot of problems, R9 being another one. But the last thing we need is people assuming that those who bring up legitimate problems just have gear envy. >_>

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Yes.


High APS is first of all, one of the only ways free to play players can even hope to compete with heavy cash shoppers.


Second of all, it's completely balanced.

A mage with a +10 rank 8 can completely faceroll any melee in this game, 5 aps or not.

Jones blessing has completely skewed PvP balance in favor of ranged classes, doesn't matter how squishy they are when you're dead before you get to them.

Psychics are pretty much invincible in PvP. Their reflect and soul of silence skills are so ridiculous at high soulforce. Your only shot at killing them is to use will surge, to bad that pretty much every psy out there has expel. Once will surge is done you're pretty much dead. Only way is to 1 or 2 shot them, good luck with that when they have 100+ defense levels. But at least they don't hit hard since white voodoo lowers atk level right? Haha, jones blessing plus full R9 and they have a positive attack level while still having 110+ defense.


In PvP having high aps is pretty much all a melee has. Most of the time you're dead before you even get to someone, and if you do then your genie and apoth is on cooldown. Arcanes have such a huge advantage in PvP. And don't give me that BS of "oh well sins can ____" no one wants to hear it. We all know that sins are OP, it's not aps that makes them OP, it's insane stun lock potential, a stupidly designed stealth system, easy attack levels, etc. Hell an aps sin isn't even that bad compared to a sin running around with 190+ attack levels. All we really have is PvE farming, Mass PvP is easily dominated by range. Hell even small group PvP is dominated by range, unless you're a sin.


tl;dr: PvE farming is all a melee has these days, and endgame content is completely PvP dominated.


All this complaining is by PvP built classes/characters complaining that their char, SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR PVP, cannot PvE very well.

how abt starting a QQ thread abt R9 wiz/psy/arch 1shotting everybody and their grandmas in TW

Way ahead of ya.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1051361

Silchas_ruin - Dreamweaver

This is hardly the community's opinion on anything. What percentage of players visit the forums, and take the time to vote/discuss on anything? Not a large one. Hell, some players are too lazy to even bother coming here to check if there's maintenance of not each week.
Instead another thread that will be fuelled by the same people who go back and forth on APS.

Ceiba - Sanctuary

I have a r9 cleric and a r8 assassin on a different account, my assassin outdamages my cleric to the point that is not even comparable, saying that the more money/time you invest in the game the better rewards you should get is an invalid argument.

The aps mechanic is broken but I am against any kind of nerf to the mechanic itself, I think that other measures should be applied to balance it a bit however, stuff really easy to do:

-APS debuffs to nirvana, fcc, delta and TT/lunar instance bosses.
-All Bosses randomly casting low level bramble for few seconds on themselves.
-Lowering Mdef of most nirvana/lunar/tt/delta bosses.
-Bloodpaint disabled debuff (disables bloodpaint leaching for few minutes).

Some random thoughts b:chuckle. But yea even PWI staff recognized the problem and promised a way to make APS/-interval less effective in the future.

TigerLily - Lost City

_Aubree__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Level 103 cleric and I voted no. By your assumption if I spent as much you on my gear, I should be every bit as good. But it isn't true. Dragons orbs cost me the same as you, but I will never reach the same damage out put with equivalent gears and refines. I have +10 r9 and just as many channeling pieces as an -int user would need for 5aps, but I will never be able to solo a boss in as much time as it takes aps people. And sins should be capped at 2.22 imo.

Yes clerics should have same DPS since its also a DD-class...b:embarrass

Why would you even make a R9 cleric to solo bosses/instances in pve lol

Sins are of course broken in every aspect of the game, but thats more related to skills than aps. Most endgame sins doesn't give a **** about max aps in PvP, they rely on zerk and attack levels and just 1-2 shots everyone from stealth.

@topic: If you think APS is problem, you most likely haven't played this game for a very long time or you never played it more than casually. Majority of long term players already have one or even two 5.0 chars for PvE by now. Its called adjusting and they dont wanna go back to spending 20 minutes killing 1 boss b:surrender.

Than they use archer/psy/wiz for Mass-PvP and TW since ranged classes (specially with R9) are superior in that area compared to meles. Classes are good for different things in this game, not saying thats a good thing tho.

nakhtuul

I always did wonder why the aps was way more than the -int.

I chop it up to terrible coding, that they probably can't figure out how to fix. But I voted yes, despite having an aps archer.

If -chann were the same, wizards would be equally as OP.

TheDan - Sanctuary

It makes no sense for ranged classes to have equal dps 1 on 1 as melees. Ranged classes are supposed to have the best aoe dps, not singular dps. This is why they roll melees in mass pvp or tw. Byt in pve, If you want to pull aggro off me and get 1 shot by a world boss, go for it, but people should know their roles as who the designated tanks should be.

nakhtuul

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

It makes no sense for ranged classes to have equal dps as melees. If you want to pull aggro off me and get 1 shot by a world boss, go for it, but people should know their roles as who the designated tanks should be.

So using your argument, archers, sins, and bm's should be the tanks?

Not the barbs? Hmmmmm....

Considering your past arguments, you must be off track today Dan.

Simple fact is that mathematically, the code does not make sense.

EDIT: Not to mention, some WB's do range magic, which a magic tank would be best at, if I recall. Maybe not, been awhile since I did WB hunts.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

_Aubree__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Level 103 cleric and I voted no. By your assumption if I spent as much you on my gear, I should be every bit as good. But it isn't true. Dragons orbs cost me the same as you, but I will never reach the same damage out put with equivalent gears and refines. I have +10 r9 and just as many channeling pieces as an -int user would need for 5aps, but I will never be able to solo a boss in as much time as it takes aps people. And sins should be capped at 2.22 imo.

Maybe because that's not what your character is built for? Because it seems like that's all you are complaining about.

The more effort you put into your character the better it is at doing what you build it for. Did you build your character to solo bosses? No you didn't because you choose a class that isn't built for that.


Your character IS better at what you chose to build it for, but don't build a character to do something and then complain when it can't do something else.

So using your argument, archers, sins, and bm's should be the tanks?

Not the barbs? Hmmmmm....

Considering your past arguments, you must be off track today Dan.

Simple fact is that mathematically, the code does not make sense.

Where did he say barbs shouldn't tank? If you build a barb to be able to tank endgame instance, you can do so easily.

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

At least the page was free from flaming XD

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

All this complaining is by PvP built classes/characters complaining that their char, SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR PVP, cannot PvE very well.

Quit claiming you know what classes are intended to do. You are not a product manager at pw-beijing. There is no official documentation that says casters are not intended to be used in PVE.

Cheze - Lost City

how about r9 wizzy gush me for 11k crit and I'm almost full +12 with 36 def lvls. not fair imo when I zerk crit on him selfbuffed for only 8k with skills. I have to be next to him and then get pass 2x expel on their genie where as for phys classes there's no such thing similar to expel that makes you immune to all magic damages for 9 seconds useable by all classes.

non aps classes are just as deadly given similar gear and a person who is not BR.

TheDan - Sanctuary

nakhtuul wrote: »

So using your argument, archers, sins, and bm's should be the tanks?

Not the barbs? Hmmmmm....

Considering your past arguments, you must be off track today Dan.

Simple fact is that mathematically, the code does not make sense.

EDIT: Not to mention, some WB's do range magic, which a magic tank would be best at, if I recall. Maybe not, been awhile since I did WB hunts.

Barbs have the best survivability and take the most hits, more suited for pvp tanks as they aren't the best dps tanks. Pve prefers dps tanks against singular opponents. Triple spark 20% hp regen purify and bloodpaint pretty much makes sins the best dps tanks. Two different things. Barbs with aps builds can be good dps tanks as well.

If you're talking machinoslitt or sword tamer, they do massive aoe magic if mage tanked. Whereas if melee tanked, they rarely aoe.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Quit claiming you know what classes are intended to do. You are not a product manager at pw-beijing. There is no official documentation that says casters are not intended to be used in PVE.

I'm talking about character builds as well as the potential of the classes. It's obvious that simply because of what they are able to do what the classes are intended for.


Or do you intend to say that a mage with the worst single target DPS in the game, the worst survivability, and absolutely no utility is designed for instances that are completely designed around single target dps?



But fine, fair enough. Let me reword it then.


All this complaining is by players of characters that perform ridiculously well in PvP, that their character with a HUGE advantage in PvP, cannot PvE very well.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

I'm talking about character builds as well as the potential of the classes. It's obvious that simply because of what they are able to do what the classes are intended for.


Or do you intend to say that a mage with the worst single target DPS in the game, the worst survivability, and absolutely no utility is designed for instances that are completely designed around single target dps?

I don't think the devs paid much consideration at all into the end-game design of the game.
I don't see a problem with dissatisfied people complaining about the game's lousy class balance.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

I'm talking about character builds as well as the potential of the classes. It's obvious that simply because of what they are able to do what the classes are intended for.

Let us not forget that "what they are able to do" has been augmented, compromised or in some cases made completely irrelevant by the changes our lovable PWE and the devs have made to the game since launch.

But hey, fail is alright as long as it's balanced out with more fail, right? -_-

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

But fine, fair enough. Let me reword it then.


All this complaining is by players of characters that perform ridiculously well in PvP, that their character with a HUGE advantage in PvP, cannot PvE very well.

All of it? So everyone who's ever QQ'd about aps is part of that same cadre of TW Wizards/Psychics who're the target of your personal soapbox? There can't be any other reason? :P

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't think the devs paid much consideration at all into the end-game design of the game.
I don't see a problem with dissatisfied people complaining about the game's lousy class balance.

The classes are balanced (except for fish) they just have different scenarios and roles where their usefulness comes in.


Can a mage be useful in a TT/Nirvana? Not really.

But they can be an unstoppable force in PvP.

Throw them in a TW and they're one shotting entire squads of people and the minute you get close to them they distance shrink back. Combine that with a well refined cube neck and warsong belt with stone barrier on and you've got a pretty scary class.