Community's opinion on APS [Poll]

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

Ceiba - Sanctuary wrote: »

Some random thoughts b:chuckle. But yea even PWI staff recognized the problem and promised a way to make APS/-interval less effective in the future.

They supposedly did this by implementing Mystics and Seekers. And while I can kinda see how its not completely prevelant. Also the rune system "helps," but if an APS toon gets a STR, DEX or atk/def lvl rune, then its pretty much the same deal.

R9 is a direct counter to aps, but in the same regard is also another problem to be dealt with.

I myself am a waffler on both APS and the R9 quandry, and am constantly wondering how PvP and PvE are comparable, but people do it all the time. I also wonder why DPH classes complain about end game damage when they dominate the damage scene for 90% of the game.

I've seen the distain towards wiz/psy/cleric at end game, but I often get confused as to why I never see Bms, barbs, archers, sins, and seekers asking in wc for bms barbs archers, sins, and seekers to tank nirvana.

Is it because wizards, Psychics and clerics cant tank? Or because they choose not to?

For a long time, Barbs were the classic meat shield, and clerics were the healers. But faction chat, world chat, and even the forums were filled with complaints about their cost to heal, or tank. They would constantly say things like, "Clerics aren't just heal batteries," and "Barbs repair bills equate their first pick in TT," But now that there's an answer to these complaints, and there is less expense on that end, people are complaining about the fix to the issue? Maybe people didn't see it that way?

Pwi doesnt start at lvl89, it starts at lvl 1, people seem to forget that.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Let us not forget that "what they are able to do" has been augmented, compromised or in some cases made completely irrelevant by the changes our lovable PWE and the devs have made to the game since launch.

But hey, fail is alright as long as it's balanced out with more fail, right? -_-

Give me ONE example of a class that is not useful in PvE or PvP. ONE.

All of it? So everyone who's ever QQ'd about aps is part of that same cadre of TW Wizards/Psychics who're the target of your personal soapbox? There can't be any other reason? :P

Oh yes, how could I forget, there is also the BMs/barbs/sins/archers who are too poor to afford -int gears and don't want to learn how to manage their money and/or choose to use a less useful build.




But yea, go ahead, nerf aps. But if you do that, reduce the attack level damage from R9 or just completely remove it. Get rid of jones blessings or add a +30 DEF level blessing to compensate. Reduce the damage on rank 8. Revert TT to the way it was because it will be impossible without high aps. Reduce soulforce gained from refines, the max should be about half where it is.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Cadeal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

They supposedly did this by implementing Mystics and Seekers. And while I can kinda see how its not completely prevelant. Also the rune system "helps," but if an APS toon gets a STR, DEX or atk/def lvl rune, then its pretty much the same deal.

R9 is a direct counter to aps, but in the same regard is also another problem to be dealt with.

+1. The solution to fail is not more fail.

The EGs were never a "solution to APS," though. The only thing they did right in that regard is ensuring that seekers weren't able to achieve 5.0, but they did this in the kludgiest way possible (and somehow managed to inconvenience the seeker class anyway).



I myself am a waffler on both APS and the R9 quandry, and am constantly wondering how

Cadeal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

PvP and PvE are comparable, but people do it all the time. I also wonder why DPH classes complain about end game damage when they dominate the damage scene for 90% of the game.

I've seen the distain towards wiz/psy/cleric at end game, but I often get confused as to why I never see Bms, barbs, archers, sins, and seekers asking in wc for bms barbs archers, sins, and seekers to tank nirvana.

Is it because wizards, Psychics and clerics cant tank? Or because they choose not to?

In Nirvana, people want the highest possible APS at all times. This would exclude everyone except BMs and sins, as well as those archers and barbs who choose to forgo their normal equipment to fist-tank things. I would assume seekers are ineligible for this due to their inability to attain high APS with their assigned weapons.

If this sounds ridiculous to you, that's because it is. >_>

Cadeal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

For a long time, Barbs were the classic meat shield, and clerics were the healers. But faction chat, world chat, and even the forums were filled with complaints about their cost to heal, or tank. They would constantly say things like, "Clerics aren't just heal batteries," and "Barbs repair bills equate their first pick in TT," But now that there's an answer to these complaints, and there is less expense on that end, people are complaining about the fix to the issue? Maybe people didn't see it that way?

Pwi doesnt start at lvl89, it starts at lvl 1, people seem to forget that.

APS was never a fix to the issue of barbs and clerics' traditional roles, and barbs/clerics were more than entitled to the first picks in TT (if you were a DD and wanted first pick, bring subs). People complain about APS not as a "fix" to that, but because of what it causes in and of itself.

Another +1 to the last statement though.

fuzzywuzz

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Oh yes, how could I forget, there is also the BMs/barbs/sins/archers who are too poor to afford -int gears and don't want to learn how to manage their money and/or choose to use a less useful build.

Choose a less useful build?

There are many barbs like Fuzzy who would have no problem "affording" -int gears but why should we be forced to change our build and use a weapon designed for another class just to be "useful"

Is there not something inherently wrong when a class must change the entire way it operates? Never mind the fact that in doing so negates the ability for said class to use most of their skills?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

The classes are balanced (except for fish) they just have different scenarios and roles where their usefulness comes in.


Can a mage be useful in a TT/Nirvana? Not really.

But they can be an unstoppable force in PvP.

Throw them in a TW and they're one shotting entire squads of people and the minute you get close to them they distance shrink back. Combine that with a well refined cube neck and warsong belt with stone barrier on and you've got a pretty scary class.

PVE and PVP are different aspects of the game and should be balanced individually.
Right now sins are the best at PVE and PK while wiz is only good during TW (but not the other 5 days of the week).

They attempted to do some balancing with the new classes since they both have skills that behave differently in PVE and PVP. I have little faith that the PWE devs have any clue about how those classes will be played at end game compared to the other classes.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Give me ONE example of a class that is not useful in PvE or PvP. ONE.

I don't see how this is a valid question, given that this wasn't my point at all. o.O

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Oh yes, how could I forget, there is also the BMs/barbs/sins/archers who are too poor to afford -int gears and don't want to learn how to manage their money and/or choose to use a less useful build.

But yea, go ahead, nerf aps. But if you do that, reduce the attack level damage from R9 or just completely remove it. Get rid of jones blessings or add a +30 DEF level blessing to compensate. Reduce the damage on rank 8. Revert TT to the way it was because it will be impossible without high aps. Reduce soulforce gained from refines, the max should be about half where it is.

I would actually, unironically, support 100% of these changes. This is what I meant by "the solution to fail is not more fail."

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

Choose a less useful build?

There are many barbs like Fuzzy who would have no problem "affording" -int gears but why should we be forced to change our build and use a weapon designed for another class just to be "useful"

Is there not something inherently wrong when a class must change the entire way it operates? Never mind the fact that in doing so negates the ability for said class to use most of their skills?

THANK YOU, Fuzzy, for summing up my entire build strategy. XD

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Right now sins are the best at PVE and PK while wiz is only good during TW (but not the other 5 days of the week).
.

TWs are on Fridays too

First time I corrected Asterelle, I can now retire happy

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

[QUOTE=Miugre - Heavens Tear;12904161 people want the highest possible APS at all times. This would exclude everyone except BMs and sins, as well as those archers and barbs who choose to forgo their normal equipment to fist-tank things. I would assume seekers are ineligible for this due to their inability to attain high APS with their assigned weapons.

while seekers cant obtain high aps using skills much like an archer or wizard posess they are quite capable of dealing mass damage in a hurry. its, a marry-go-round of hippocracy tbh.

Then explain to me why Psy's clerics wizards, and "primary" builds ask for Aps, and then complain about it behind their backs? That sounds like a double edged hippocracy to me.



APS was never a fix to the issue of barbs and clerics' traditional roles, and barbs/clerics were more than entitled to the first picks in TT (if you were a DD and wanted first pick, bring subs). People complain about APS not as a "fix" to that, but because of what it causes in and of itself.

While it was never intended to be a fix for it, it became one. Repair costs went down, charm costs are gone. Clerics dont have to BB for half an hour, and because BP they are free to attack to their hearts content to bring down a boss. To what end did the community not get what they wanted from aps?

Another +1 to the last statement though.[/QUOTE]

Answers in post, *shrugs*

Sukinee - Heavens Tear

I'm a cleric with a lot of caster alts and a seeker so I'm just on the fence of the APS issue and observing these threads is fun. b:avoid

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

If someone could give a valid reason for both, I'll agree, but honestly, I cant find one, and because both "aps" classes and "DPH" classes are needed, someone needs to give me a better reason than "because I say so."



I've seen Barbs tank Nirvana just fine without APS, many many many times, and each time I'm very thankful. Aps is simply another way for other classes to tank. A great many barbs complained for a very very long time that they built a certain way and their repair bills were in the hundred thousnads

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Cadeal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

While it was never intended to be a fix for it, it became one. Repair costs went down, charm costs are gone. Clerics dont have to BB for half an hour, and because BP they are free to attack to their hearts content to bring down a boss. To what end did the community not get what they wanted from aps?

I still disagree that this was even a "fix" to anything at all. Boss fights (at least in TT) were designed to last more than two minutes each. Barbs had high repair bills, clerics had (and still have) high MP costs, DDs got last pick of the mats. Maybe it wasn't a cakewalk to free gear, but it was at least a workable formula which (roughly) spilt the burden without requiring specific gears to be competent.

Cadeal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then explain to me why Psy's clerics wizards, and "primary" builds ask for Aps, and then complain about it behind their backs? That sounds like a double edged hippocracy to me.

You missed where I said "if it sounds ridiculous to you, that's because it is." I am by no means condoning these squads who require a certain APS. Nirvana can certainly be completed by non-APS squads - the only reason people "require" APS is just to do it faster than it was ever designed to be done.

Chickpea - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

PVE and PVP are different aspects of the game and should be balanced individually.
Right now sins are the best at PVE and PK while wiz is only good during TW (but not the other 5 days of the week).

They attempted to do some balancing with the new classes since they both have skills that behave differently in PVE and PVP. I have little faith that the PWE devs have any clue about how those classes will be played at end game compared to the other classes.

Sins on the other hand are really useless in TW/Mass PvP compared to a Wizard. Also good luck to all sins getting access to map 3,4 and getting third fairy. Sins are about as useful running full Rebirth as Wizards in NV.

But i really agree that PVE and PVP should be balanced individually. Makes no sense having to level different types of classes for different aspect of the game like everyone is forced to do atm.

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I still disagree that this was even a "fix" to anything at all. Boss fights (at least in TT) were designed to last more than two minutes each. Barbs had high repair bills, clerics had (and still have) high MP costs, DDs got last pick of the mats. Maybe it wasn't a cakewalk to free gear, but it was at least a workable formula which (roughly) spilt the burden without requiring specific gears to be competent.


You missed where I said "if it sounds ridiculous to you, that's because it is." I am by no means condoning these squads who require a certain APS. Nirvana can certainly be completed by non-APS squads - the only reason people "require" APS is just to do it faster than it was ever designed to be done.

How do you disagree that aps didnt resolve TT run times, cost and clerical hardships? It litterally absolved the "blame the barb because the barb fails to tank" issue.

I just dont see why everyone has to point a finger at both sides of the issue, and say that you fail because of this, or you fail because of that, or you break the game because of this... get my point?

Sorry, I'm done here, I made my point, and the rickshaw-ride of rebounding hate is annoying me.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

Choose a less useful build?

There are many barbs like Fuzzy who would have no problem "affording" -int gears but why should we be forced to change our build and use a weapon designed for another class just to be "useful"

Is there not something inherently wrong when a class must change the entire way it operates? Never mind the fact that in doing so negates the ability for said class to use most of their skills?

I'm just talking about the ones Q_Qing. Sure there are pure vit barbs like fuzzy and whomper and etc. that could afford -int gears but choose not to go claw build. BUUUUUT


I don't see you complaining very often about 5 aps.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Dezto - Harshlands wrote: »

The whole APS/interval discussion here is pointless.

If you want something like this to change then go over to the PW-CN forums and post it there.

Next topic: Community's opinion on channeling/soulforce/defense levels/etc.!

even with channeling of -50, a caster cant complete with 5 aps, cause a skill requires channel time and CAST TIME, which will always stay same.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I still disagree that this was even a "fix" to anything at all. Boss fights (at least in TT) were designed to last more than two minutes each. Barbs had high repair bills, clerics had (and still have) high MP costs, DDs got last pick of the mats. Maybe it wasn't a cakewalk to free gear, but it was at least a workable formula which (roughly) spilt the burden without requiring specific gears to be competent.

So basically you liked this system and the dependency it created? Also the arrogance some of the barbs and clerics exhibited at the time because they were needed?Sorry I rather have 5.0 aps than return to that state.

You missed where I said "if it sounds ridiculous to you, that's because it is." I am by no means condoning these squads who require a certain APS. Nirvana can certainly be completed by non-APS squads - the only reason people "require" APS is just to do it faster than it was ever designed to be done.

So whats the problem then? o.O

There you go

But i really agree that PVE and PVP should be balanced individually. Makes no sense having to level different types of classes for different aspect of the game like everyone is forced to do atm.

As long as there are different classes, there will always be some sort of imbalance. Each class has its strength and its weaknesses.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Right now sins are the best at PVE and PK while wiz is only good during TW (but not the other 5 days of the week).

Sins are overpowered, not because of aps, but because of incredible stuns, easy attack levels, crazy chi gain, ridiculous buffs that can't be purged, and a stupid stealth system.

As for useless the other days of the week, you should see a mage in a large scale PvP fight.

Hell, just the other day I fought a mage one vs. one. We fought for about 3-4 minutes and then I got hit by a sandstorm crit for 14k by his +10 R8 and died.

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There you go

hey cool someone else who understands logic


Maybe we can tame the forums and bring some symbolance back to the masses....
*dreams*


ok or not...


Death to the infedels! b:angry

RADD_RATT - Harshlands

archers have a 30 meter range QQQQQQQQQQQQ no matter how much i spend my daggers will never have a 30 meter range QQQQQQQQQQQQQ. oh wait...i am not an archer, therefore i should not have the advantages that specific class gives....therefor i dont.


see how that works?

archer really has nothing to do with it though, you can thor in any class and list their strong points to make the same statement

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

RADD_RATT - Harshlands wrote: »

archers have a 30 meter range QQQQQQQQQQQQ no matter how much i spend my daggers will never have a 30 meter range QQQQQQQQQQQQQ. oh wait...i am not an archer, therefore i should not have the advantages that specific class gives....therefor i dont.


see how that works?

archer really has nothing to do with it though, you can thor in any class and list their strong points to make the same statement

you have a 35 meter range <.<

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Cadeal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you have a 35 meter range <.<

b:laugh luv ya

Chickpea - Lost City

RADD_RATT - Harshlands wrote: »

archers have a 30 meter range QQQQQQQQQQQQ no matter how much i spend my daggers will never have a 30 meter range QQQQQQQQQQQQQ. oh wait...i am not an archer, therefore i should not have the advantages that specific class gives....therefor i dont.


see how that works?

archer really has nothing to do with it though, you can thor in any class and list their strong points to make the same statement

My sin has 35 meters range with Shadow jump, Knife throw and Shadow Teleport.

My archer only has 32 meters range.

I think you should pick a better example.

Noctls - Dreamweaver

I vote yes it is fair. That is all. b:bye

RADD_RATT - Harshlands

my daggers have a 35 meter range? i never knew. i mean yeahtheres a skill that has a 35 meter range....and a cool down.....im sure squads wont mind if i stand back and just knife throw everything.

Zenorx - Harshlands

Asthariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

/inb4flamebait

And to answer, I chose no, but I won't start explanations since it seems fairly obvious and I don't wanna start a flame war o.o

Says the lvl 100 EG probably FC'd 2 100 by another 5 aps char..... b:bye

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So basically you liked this system and the dependency it created? Also the arrogance some of the barbs and clerics exhibited at the time because they were needed?Sorry I rather have 5.0 aps than return to that state.

And you're welcome to that opinion, but you speak as if said arrogance isn't still rampant. I've seen arrogance from every class on too many occasions to blame the old dependencies. If anything, DDs have become far more arrogant in the knowledge that they have the APS to not be refused by the "5-minute-attention-span" Nirvana squads.

Ironically enough, the same general solution to said arrogance applies: find some good friends / a faction who won't hold your class, gear, etc. against you.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So whats the problem then? o.O

Oh, it doesn't personally affect me (since when I do ever hit 100, I'll be going with friends who are more than happy to do it normally). But Cadeal was remarking about the state of WCs for Nirvana squads, and that's the attitude they tend to display. *shrug*

I mean, you could make the argument that said 100+ casters should really just find a good faction/FL to call on (and I do), but... well, if you're gonna talk about arrogance, you need to look no further than the people who make those WCs.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

IMO :P let the 5aps alone. they spent mass of money to reach that goal. Sins are OP, just give casters something as well to work on to compete with 5aps.

Barb need new skills..sorry its true.
Casters need faster skill channel+cast time.


Oh..and my herc needs lvl6 bash to be able to tank some poo even with 2 sins in squad (kittys are almost gone QQ).

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Hell, just the other day I fought a mage one vs. one. We fought for about 3-4 minutes and then I got hit by a sandstorm crit for 14k by his +10 R8 and died.

To be fair though you're pretty squishy for a barb b:chuckle

RADD_RATT - Harshlands wrote: »

my daggers have a 35 meter range? i never knew. i mean yeahtheres a skill that has a 35 meter range....and a cool down.....im sure squads wont mind if i stand back and just knife throw everything.

If you are struggling fighting archers you must be the world's most terrible sin. You should just quit now cause a trained monkey can play your class better than you can.

Zeyar - Dreamweaver

i use R8 archer for TW .. and aps sin for anything PvE
they both r on same account & share the equipments
Each class has own use, Learn to use urs

if caster class want to be on par with aps toons on PvE wise, it would only be fair for those aps toons be given the same dmg as casters do on PvP/TW .. right ?

imagine a stealth R8 sin pop out and do AOE with R8 wiz's dmg or a BM from 30m range does 10k crit on ya b:laugh

The__Sun - Dreamweaver

Yeah its nice when you get into a squad with high APS people, but at the same time as a castor, besides BH's, you don't get into squads with APS for places to gear up such as nirvana that often. The main thing that annoys me is when in WC they either say "Looking for 4+ APS for nirvana" (so castors are not welcome) or "Looking for more DD's for nirvana" then you PM them and they ask what your APS is. You tell them your class (Psy, Veno, Wiz) and you get no response. I'm a Psychic and I know I do more damage then a 3.33 BM cause I have held aggro from them in Nirvana before, so idk why some are so strict about full APS squads. Yeah, I could start my own squad but by the time people join (and actually stay) I end up wasting more tele's then it is worth. If -channeling reduced casttime as well then maybe castors would be needed, but then you would have everyone complaining about imbalance in PVP/PK/TW even more so then now, so that wont happen. Not saying I hate 5 APS just wish squads would be more reasonable rather then all about APS