You cant un-scramble an egg

amandisha74

Lets start a thread with realistic alternatives to nurfing aps. PWI had no forsight when they made the class but now that pandoras box is open what do we do.

To many people have invested in there aps. pwi is stuck. <there own fault imo>

Problem A:
If it remains the same ALOT of people will quit.

Problem B:
If they nurf aps ALOT of people will quit.

So with out to much QQ'ing how do you guys we suggest we fix pwe's tremendous blunder?

Freizer - Lost City

Well, at least for barbs, I would happily take a rout that just made it more realistic to tank an aps player pvp. So higher defense, and Hp bonuses from gear, or stats would be an acceptable trade off to me.

For pve, just make fleshreme as OP as aps, (aggro mechanics ). I can't for see too many DD's complaining about a barb's weakest damage skill getting an overhaul to keep up with them.

I don't know if these are easy to implement into the game, i'm not a programmer so just my two cents.

amandisha74

Being 100 barb myself. That is for sure the first thing that needs to be done. and simple to just make FR create better hate. Cant figure out why they have not done that yet. Only thing I can think of is if barb tanks int dd can't feed there precsious little ego's. <oops did I say that out loud>

Kinir - Lost City

I would love wb tanks to come back. APS has been around for quite a while and isn't a mistake. It just became to easy to get. The difference between Problem A and Problem B is if problem B happens only the 10x's who can't play would quit so I say go with that.

Edit addition: Why not remove bloodpaint so at least they need a healer again? I have noticed on LC, idk about other servers, that ep's have become a rare find anymore. Self healing is a joke from punching/stabbing something anyway.

Waterfal - Sanctuary

I fully agree that barbs need to generate more hate. At least the demon/sage skills, since at those lvls people with higher aps show up.

Maybe it isn't that aps has to be fixed.. but the game as to change around it fixing it if you know what I mean b:surrender
Per example making the barbs generate more hate will tune a different mechanic to "fix" aps.

EDIT: Even though I'm not very fond of aps being able to farm like.. everything.. I don't think they should remove/nerf it. It's like giving a kid a candy and then taking it away. b:surrender just that this is a pretty pricey candy too >.>"

Klinsy - Dreamweaver

Overpower everything else to match 5APS' overpowering.

It'll be equal again then.

Cheze - Lost City

Waterfal - Sanctuary wrote: »

I fully agree that barbs need to generate more hate. At least the demon/sage skills, since at those lvls people with higher aps show up.

Maybe it isn't that aps has to be fixed.. but the game as to change around it fixing it if you know what I mean b:surrender
Per example making the barbs generate more hate will tune a different mechanic to "fix" aps.

EDIT: Even though I'm not very fond of aps being able to farm like.. everything.. I don't think they should remove/nerf it. It's like giving a kid a candy and then taking it away. b:surrender just that this is a pretty pricey candy too >.>"

I will try to help.

I HATE BARBS. I HATE BARBS. I HATE BARBS.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

If you want to fix something that's fundamentally broken, you need to return to the fundamentals of it. The APS cap remaining at 5 is the heart of the problem, and the issue will not go away until it is lowered. All other suggestions I've seen would cause further issues and not fix the problem itself.

"ALOT" of people will NOT quit over this. Even some of the APS users on this board admit that it is one of the PW devs' failures. We've had enough **** thrown at us in the last year or two that fixing something that's actually broken won't hurt us that badly.

If nothing else, they should fix it as a "may as well" strategy, because this game as a business is not sustainable as-is.

amandisha74

Game isn't sustainable and I have invested two years and SOME money, not enough to be any good apperently. but lately the game has become frustrating to me. They have all these classes, and all these areas and mobs to go hunt. Yet there really isn't any point in going to them or interacting with them.

Would it help to have regular mobs provide better rewards so that some of the weaker classes can actually get some rare stuff to?

I'm kind of old school grinder, I would like to see mobs be more entertaining to hunt. if not more money rewards least some rewards for like braging rights.. like medals or trophies and stuff for performing certain tasks.

Maybe the answer isn't to gimp aps, but make them less needed by providing alternate content for classes so they can go off and have fun without them if need be.

I dunno somthings broken if I'm out trolling the board instead of playing.

Elmut - Heavens Tear

amandisha74 wrote: »

Game isn't sustainable and I have invested two years and SOME money, not enough to be any good apperently. but lately the game has become frustrating to me. They have all these classes, and all these areas and mobs to go hunt. Yet there really isn't any point in going to them or interacting with them.

Would it help to have regular mobs provide better rewards so that some of the weaker classes can actually get some rare stuff to?

I'm kind of old school grinder, I would like to see mobs be more entertaining to hunt. if not more money rewards least some rewards for like braging rights.. like medals or trophies and stuff for performing certain tasks.

Maybe the answer isn't to gimp aps, but make them less needed by providing alternate content for classes so they can go off and have fun without them if need be.

I dunno somthings broken if I'm out trolling the board instead of playing.

I strongly agree with u

Longknife - Harshlands

5 aps on a BM in PVP is perfectly fine, at least in my experience. 5aps on anyone who wouldn't naturally use claws is an absolute joke in PVP.

5 aps on a sin popping out of stealth, there's the problem. People need a way to react in time. As it is now, the window for reaction is SO small that sometimes the game doesn't even keep up with it and you see yourself dying before the sin even unstealths on your screen.


5aps a problem for farming? Perhaps not, perhaps so. I dunno about other servers, but I noticed a severe difference in how well I did fighting sins before and after this x2 drops event. I thought I was getting crappy at PVP, then I realized no, my opponents were getting better: they all had +12 dags suddenly while I still had my +7 gear, barely able to earn enough to +9 my weapon WHEN the next 10 star orb comes around. It's an issue that can be adapted to of course, but I'm sure a lot of people get frustrated when they struggle in PVP with sins, and then as the icing on the cake, the sin is improving himself 5x as fast as all the others.

Jellytoast - Sanctuary

amandisha74 wrote: »

Game isn't sustainable and I have invested two years and SOME money, not enough to be any good apperently. but lately the game has become frustrating to me. They have all these classes, and all these areas and mobs to go hunt. Yet there really isn't any point in going to them or interacting with them.

Would it help to have regular mobs provide better rewards so that some of the weaker classes can actually get some rare stuff to?

I'm kind of old school grinder, I would like to see mobs be more entertaining to hunt. if not more money rewards least some rewards for like braging rights.. like medals or trophies and stuff for performing certain tasks.

Maybe the answer isn't to gimp aps, but make them less needed by providing alternate content for classes so they can go off and have fun without them if need be.

I dunno somthings broken if I'm out trolling the board instead of playing.

Ah, I agree too. There was an MMO I played where certain bosses would spawn randomly, but were pretty hard. If you were able to kill it, you got a special title over your head, which also gave bonuses depending on ths boss. Like +x amount of hp, or attack or something. I think that would be really cool. And maybe adding more achievments that would actually be worth trying for, along with putting the achievement system ingame. Core is pretty unreliable with telling you what you have. >.<

Kinir - Lost City

The making mobs give better stuff thing got me thinking. Back when this game first came out all the best gear was gotten through really hard in game work. Now most of that is nullified and I think if you give people something hard to work toward it will help motivate people as well.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

amandisha74 wrote: »

Game isn't sustainable and I have invested two years and SOME money, not enough to be any good apperently. but lately the game has become frustrating to me. They have all these classes, and all these areas and mobs to go hunt. Yet there really isn't any point in going to them or interacting with them.

Would it help to have regular mobs provide better rewards so that some of the weaker classes can actually get some rare stuff to?

I'm kind of old school grinder, I would like to see mobs be more entertaining to hunt. if not more money rewards least some rewards for like braging rights.. like medals or trophies and stuff for performing certain tasks.

Maybe the answer isn't to gimp aps, but make them less needed by providing alternate content for classes so they can go off and have fun without them if need be.

I dunno somthings broken if I'm out trolling the board instead of playing.

I agree 100%. If we can't get into Nirvana because we are unwanted lame APS types, give us something else.... but something where a group of 5APS isn't going to make a difference. And I too, for the most part, have always enjoyed questing and grinding... I wouldn't mind some mobs (at least certain ones) being more profitable and perhaps more challenging even.

Jellytoast - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ah, I agree too. There was an MMO I played where certain bosses would spawn randomly, but were pretty hard. If you were able to kill it, you got a special title over your head, which also gave bonuses depending on ths boss. Like +x amount of hp, or attack or something. I think that would be really cool. And maybe adding more achievments that would actually be worth trying for, along with putting the achievement system ingame. Core is pretty unreliable with telling you what you have. >.<

Could be interesting as long as it was actually random spawns.... everything planned is camped and killed by the 5APS types. >.>

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

5 aps really isn't that broken, these threads are really getting excessive.


5 aps is all a BM has in PvP. Sure, they can kill you relatively quickly with 5 aps, you know who else can? That +10 R8/R9 archer/mage/psy/cleric/etc. Who can kill you even faster, and also do it from a distance. If an R9 mage so much as looks at you while your AD is on cooldown then that's it, you're dead.


APS is the only thing making PvE useful. Hell it's the only thing that makes TT3-x possible. Because right now the only way to complete a full TT3-3 is to kill him as fast as possible, because if you take to long then eventually he will just stun/sleep/seal your entire squad, aoe purge, and then one shot your cleric whose res scroll is on cooldown.

Nirvana? A tier 2 nirvana weapon is 250 raptures. You get an average of 1 rapture per 3 runs. So 750 runs total. Without high aps DDs you're looking at around 30 minutes per run and that's with a bunch of +10 R8 archers. That's 375 hours of nirvana for a tier 2 weapon, that's a little bit excessive. 375 HOURS for just a weapon, and then you need to at least farm a helm and probably a cape.


And also, other than merching, having a 5.0 aps character to farm on is really the only thing that allows F2P players to compete with the heavy cash shoppers.




People without high aps who love to complain really need to actually put some effort into getting nirvana squads. I world chat the other day saying I need DDs for nirvana, didn't say I need aps, didn't say must have 5.0 or w/e, just DDs. The only people who replied? BMs, Archers, and Sins. Oh and a claw barb. I actually had to world chat for TEN MINUTES to find a VENO to go on the run.

If you want to run, first of all actually take the initiative to try to go. If someone says they need a DD on world chat THEN YOU NEED TO VOLUNTEER. No one is going to ask you directly if you would like to go, I'm a 5 aps barb and people only ask me during double drops. There's a mage in my guild called KingLulo, he goes to nirvana runs ALL THE TIME, know why? Because he actually will PM me and say he can go when I'm making a squad. I'm not going to say "hey, random psychic, want to go nirvana?" But if I say "Making a nirvana squad who wants to go, and they PM me and say "I can go" then more than likely I will take them.

Also, actually put some effort into being useful to the squad. You wouldn't believe how many times I'll be taking a psychic to nirvana that says he cant do chests, like really? I know you don't have high dps but at least TRY to be useful. Venos get your level 11 amp, everyone get a high magic tangling mire/extreme poison genie and you'll find you're actually welcome. Oh and get a decent weapon, it might not make a huge difference, but when I see someone with a +3 TT90 weapon asking for nirvana then that just shows me they're someone who doesn't even put any effort into their character.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Make a new instance that requires a rainbow squad to farm, one that gives better exp than fc and better gear than other instances. Make it really, really hard. Make it so that only 9x+ can even hope to get in there (that way the other instances are still valuable) by use of a team level cap. Make the gear comparable to rank 9, without it being better than it. Something that people can farm and compete with rank 9 players without being one shotted, but still allows rank 9 to be the best gear in game. Make it take an insane amount of runs to get the good armor, so that the costs are comparable to anything a 5aps can farm but just as good. Make it give rewards that are similar to the trophy, tickets you can turn in for class specific goodies. Such as +hate, axes for barbs, or -chan +Def Level (a comparable, but smaller amount than rank 9 gives) for casters. Make the weapons add new skills, such as the wand that adds purify in the faction bases. Instead of purify though, let them include a bramble type skill. Not as a good as a veno bramble skill, and certainly not things like amp/purge. But something that you could use to defend yourself against them. Include a +detection level skill so that they can only hide from are people lower level than them. Include a 105 set of armor to make up for the drawbacks of reaching that point so that more people will have incentive to be beat the darn game. Make some of the bosses require a wizard tank for example (phys immune) and some a proper barb tank (elemental immune) that way this gear takes time and effort to obtain and requires working together with multiple classes and can't be farmed by an aps squad. Don't even let a squad consisting of less than four classes enter. Sure the aps people could still be taken on as two of you're dds, but you would still need more than them. Finally, put some good alternatives to aps gear out there so that every sin doesn't HAVE to go aps to compete. That way there will be more diversity in PVP.



This instance should not take away all the 5aps power in the things they do well, just give an option to those that are not 5aps and who knows maybe even gives a 5aps sin who is bored with the game now something else to do besides merchanting.

Kinjeto - Raging Tide

I suppose the issue Im seeing. Lately is the lack of 'magical monsters' in Nirvana or monsters that require a little bit more than running up to them and unleashing the fury. (The Constant Auto Spark Issue)

The other issue I am seeing which wasn't in my Malaysian version is 'The Jones Blessing' which adds +30 ATK to everyones attacks. That is all good and well, but you're giving people the equivalent of a Rank 9 Weapon.

If you want to 'learn by example' I could give a certain development team a few hints. There is a monster in FB99 called "The Haunted Headless" http://www.pwdatabase.com/mob/9910 that has PHYSICIAL IMMUNE that is only kill-able with a Cleric and a Wizard. Which I've had the pleasure of dispatching (different tactics of keeping of this wonderful monster -- occupied) with a player called Fenrae from another guild on Raging Tide (Yes the Wizard has R9).

What you want to do in that 'randomisation' of monsters in Nirvana is have the occasional magical set (*cough* physical immune set) appears. So it pulls people of the psychic/wizard and now quite possibly the Earthbound variety into the Mix.

"Oh but Kin you can't do that the dungeon is already underway." you might say. Once again I beg to differ. You can only FORCE people to play by changing the gameplay environment they're playing in before game ideas get to inset

Let me repeat this and put EMPHASIS on the words for you: GAMEPLAY ENVIRONMENT and CHANGE PEOPLES EXPERIENCE before IT BECOMES THE NORM

The only other FIX if you want to call it that is that we implement either A: New level cap B: New Dungeon C: New Set of Gear and then later down the track put a clamp on the weapons.

But I'd say my wisdom posting in this thread is being wasted on the little troll munchkins and developers would never read it. Take it from me. People play games to 'experience' playing them. Eventually they realize that certain combinations go well together. But PW is a very clever game it has building the big stones from the small stones, it has building that really awesome necklace over time from the smaller necklace. It is a elongated game. To get the good gear, you can pay through the behind or take your time getting things.

Oh and believe me the "Im bored at 100" crowd are hilarious.

Katzyn - Sanctuary

Kinjeto - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you want to 'learn by example' I could give a certain development team a few hints. There is a monster in FB99 called "The Haunted Headless" that has PHYSICIAL IMMUNE that is only kill-able with a Cleric and a Mage. Which I've had the pleasure of dispatching with Fenrae from another guild on Raging Tide.

Well, not quite true. My squad's done it with a cleric, veno, psy, sin, archer...and I forget the last, if we had a 6th. The two melees used apoth pots that gave them elemental damage, and with their 5aps, they still tanked and did the most damage. Once we got used to doing it, timing heals and such, the boss dropped so quickly, with no casulties on our side...

Point of my example is, people will still find a way to 5aps it to death.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

amandisha74 wrote: »

Game isn't sustainable and I have invested two years and SOME money, not enough to be any good apperently. but lately the game has become frustrating to me. They have all these classes, and all these areas and mobs to go hunt. Yet there really isn't any point in going to them or interacting with them.

Would it help to have regular mobs provide better rewards so that some of the weaker classes can actually get some rare stuff to?

I'm kind of old school grinder, I would like to see mobs be more entertaining to hunt. if not more money rewards least some rewards for like braging rights.. like medals or trophies and stuff for performing certain tasks.

Maybe the answer isn't to gimp aps, but make them less needed by providing alternate content for classes so they can go off and have fun without them if need be.

I dunno somthings broken if I'm out trolling the board instead of playing.

This post wins the thread.



@Rawrgh: If they fixed TT3, that wouldn't be an issue. They originally buffed TT3 because of solo farmers (or so I heard), and now who are the only people who can do them? And yeah, I know the likelihood of either being fixed is slim, but if we're discussing one we may as well discuss the other.

Kinjeto - Raging Tide

Katzyn - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, not quite true. My squad's done it with a cleric, veno, psy, sin, archer...and I forget the last, if we had a 6th. The two melees used apoth pots that gave them elemental damage, and with their 5aps, they still tanked and did the most damage. Once we got used to doing it, timing heals and such, the boss dropped so quickly, with no casulties on our side...

Point of my example is, people will still find a way to 5aps it to death.

Those pots don't do much elemental damage. Hey. b:laugh

Mendy__ - Sanctuary

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Make a new instance that requires a rainbow squad to farm, one that gives better exp than fc and better gear than other instances. Make it really, really hard. Make it so that only 9x+ can even hope to get in there (that way the other instances are still valuable) by use of a team level cap. Make the gear comparable to rank 9, without it being better than it. Something that people can farm and compete with rank 9 players without being one shotted, but still allows rank 9 to be the best gear in game. Make it take an insane amount of runs to get the good armor, so that the costs are comparable to anything a 5aps can farm but just as good. Make it give rewards that are similar to the trophy, tickets you can turn in for class specific goodies. Such as +hate, axes for barbs, or -chan +Def Level (a comparable, but smaller amount than rank 9 gives) for casters. Make the weapons add new skills, such as the wand that adds purify in the faction bases. Instead of purify though, let them include a bramble type skill. Not as a good as a veno bramble skill, and certainly not things like amp/purge. But something that you could use to defend yourself against them. Include a +detection level skill so that they can only hide from are people lower level than them. Include a 105 set of armor to make up for the drawbacks of reaching that point so that more people will have incentive to be beat the darn game. Make some of the bosses require a wizard tank for example (phys immune) and some a proper barb tank (elemental immune) that way this gear takes time and effort to obtain and requires working together with multiple classes and can't be farmed by an aps squad. Don't even let a squad consisting of less than four classes enter. Sure the aps people could still be taken on as two of you're dds, but you would still need more than them. Finally, put some good alternatives to aps gear out there so that every sin doesn't HAVE to go aps to compete. That way there will be more diversity in PVP.



This instance should not take away all the 5aps power in the things they do well, just give an option to those that are not 5aps and who knows maybe even gives a 5aps sin who is bored with the game now something else to do besides merchanting.

since lunar nirvana (stat wise not add wise) is pretty much the same as rank 9... just have them change lunar back to the old way and farm lunar gear, then nirvana it ^^ i dont know dont how 100+ squads with this gear out now would do in old lunar (it might be easy now xD no idea)... i just remember when i was in my 90's doing old lunar... it was hard as hell and you needed range classes as well as melee but it was by far the best instance because it was so damn hard xD its fun to squad wipe over and over

Sthenith - Dreamweaver

True, in comparison to the 5 aps DD's and the high DPS toons, barbs are UNderpowered.

Personally i love having a barb in squad, no matter on what toon i'm playing.Not only are their buffs really yummy b:victory, they can, if they're any good, keep aggro from the more squishy toons quite often.

I do however feel sorry for the relatively "new" barbs b:sad

I went into a bh69 with a bunch of lvl 80+'s just because i needed gaurn for a divine order. As a lvl 100 sin i knew i would take aggro constantly, but what amazed me and especially the others in sq, was the speed at which those mobs went down, and i'm not even full aps.

That barb present couldn't really do much...just DD a bit and that's it. IF however they had a skill that would keep aggro no matter what damage others do, then at least one would give them a more meaningfull function and return everything for them back to "normal" a bit.

People used to ask for a "tank" (meaning barb) in BH squads. Now any high lvl aps with enuf hp seems to be becoming the norm.

p.s. :

Finally, put some good alternatives to aps gear out there so that every sin doesn't HAVE to go aps to compete.

As a sin my self : best idea EVER.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Also you people who think pure vit barbs would tank if aps was nerfed are delusional.


You think you can keep aggro from a +10 rank 8 weapon using flesh ream? Don't make me laugh.

You raise the amount of aggro generated from flesh ream? Fine, but it's irrelevant. Why would you have a barb tank when you can have someone else tank who can tank perfectly fine AND do more damage.

Sereneai - Dreamweaver

Cheze, wrong kind of hate dude b:chuckle

I agree that the first step is to tweak the older classes to match the newer ones. Make FR generate more aggro to balance the DPS aggro of a sin or fist BM, etc, etc. Even though i enjoy the challenge of tanking, I will happily nerf my DPS and let a heavy do it, when that is an option...

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

You raise the amount of aggro generated from flesh ream? Fine, but it's irrelevant. Why would you have a barb tank when you can have someone else tank who can tank perfectly fine AND do more damage.

Can I tank? Yes (with some exception, obviously, at my level). When I hit 89 I am most likely going sage, which will make me even tankier, and I enjoy the challenge anyway.

Would I rather let a Vit Heavy tank it FOR ME? Hell yeah. b:surrender much rather a barb than me, not to mention a vit build has better chance of surviving big boss hits. I actually know a 101 sin who likes to have an APS BM in squad, because he hates tanking b:chuckle I suspect he (and i) would happily take a Vit barb if they could keep aggro.

amandisha74

What if the barb had a Berzerker skill that would significantly increase dmg/aps/crit, for a short amount of time, that could only be useable on non-players. That would move them to the top of the hate list and they would use currant agro skills to maintain. That way you still have to learn to play your barb but you could also get that extra hate boost that is needed.

Least make Untamed wrath useable in tiger form :-/

Miugre - Heavens Tear

amandisha74 wrote: »

What if the barb had a Berzerker skill that would significantly increase dmg/aps/crit, for a short amount of time, that could only be useable on non-players. That would move them to the top of the hate list and they would use currant agro skills to maintain. That way you still have to learn to play your barb but you could also get that extra hate boost that is needed.

Least make Untamed wrath useable in tiger form :-/

Somehow I doubt Berserk has proven effective at serious aggro control. Not saying it wouldn't help, but you're still not gonna hold aggro against 5.0s. You may as well be using the BM's stream strike.

Katzyn - Sanctuary

Kinjeto - Raging Tide wrote: »

Those pots don't do much elemental damage. Hey. b:laugh

They do when you're 5aps, lol.

Getter_Robo - Dreamweaver

amandisha74 wrote: »

Game isn't sustainable and I have invested two years and SOME money, not enough to be any good apperently. but lately the game has become frustrating to me. They have all these classes, and all these areas and mobs to go hunt. Yet there really isn't any point in going to them or interacting with them.

Would it help to have regular mobs provide better rewards so that some of the weaker classes can actually get some rare stuff to?

I'm kind of old school grinder, I would like to see mobs be more entertaining to hunt. if not more money rewards least some rewards for like braging rights.. like medals or trophies and stuff for performing certain tasks.

Maybe the answer isn't to gimp aps, but make them less needed by providing alternate content for classes so they can go off and have fun without them if need be.

I dunno somthings broken if I'm out trolling the board instead of playing.

What they should do is change the mobs a bit. Seeing the same skinn on a mob in one area and then seeing it in another is kinda boring. Maybe also give these mobs new abilities too? To change it up a bit so that when you are playing a new toon, you go, "Wow this is different from the last time i fought these things, I better change my tactics in fighting them".

Yoruichy - Lost City

Maybe we should go with Cheze's suggestion. Instead of nerfing APS, ignore all classes that aren't as OP. Problem solved.

Lord_Mot - Harshlands

I may be oversimplifying, but if demon/sage spark had a cooldown of say, 30 seconds, 60 seconds, or even 90 seconds, would that not stop the permaspark monster in its tracks?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

I'd rather they first nerf permaspark.
Give demon / sage spark a 60 second cooldown. Spamming it every 15 seconds is pretty dumb and noone uses any other skill.

Alternatively they can make permaspark available to other classes, at least in PVE. My idea was to give clerics a level 100 skill that is a zhen which gives surrounding squad members enough chi to spark every 15 seconds. Give it like 8 second channeling and I don't think PVP will be impacted much.