Someone help me figure out how this is logical.
Comments
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@Aesp, who would offer to buy the mat 150k over the highest cat shop price?
Also, just wondering how many of you guys farm random squad for the drops? Random squads are mainly for the coin amiright? So wouldn't you want to maximize your POTENTIAL earning?
Catshop B>1.5mil Member 6> 1.5mil (1 Rapture dropped, nothing else) Catshop S>1.8mil
Members / Bank / 1 hour later (rap has been sold)
1. 250k / 0 / 250k
2. 250k / 0 / 250k
3. 250k / 0 / 250k
4. 250k / 0 / 250k
5. 250k / 0 / 250k
6. 250k + Rapture, / -1.25mil / 550k
^ That's not equal to me? Provided the person buying from squad is going to resell it, this is why I don't feel they should get their "earned from particpating coin." Even just selling they still made 50k more than anyone else.
Kindly point out what I did wrong there please. This is what I've been arguing all evening...0 -
People like this that ruin the game. They get 101 by facerolling on a keyboard and still still win. Please go to school!! Ur mind.. it is empty!!!
P.s. Teletubbies arent realzzzzPVP: 3800 kills in the name of KD lawl
Retired as of 18/11/09
Back as of 22/11/10
Archer retired as of 26/12/100 -
SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »@Aesp, who would offer to buy the mat 150k over the highest cat shop price?
Also, just wondering how many of you guys farm random squad for the drops? Random squads are mainly for the coin amiright? So wouldn't you want to maximize your POTENTIAL earning?
Catshop B>1.5mil Member 6> 1.5mil (1 Rapture dropped, nothing else) Catshop S>1.8mil
Members / Bank / 1 hour later (rap has been sold)
1. 250k / 0 / 250k
2. 250k / 0 / 250k
3. 250k / 0 / 250k
4. 250k / 0 / 250k
5. 250k / 0 / 250k
6. 250k + Rapture, / -1.5mil / 550k
^ That's not equal to me? Provided the person buying from squad is going to resell it, this is why I don't feel they should get their "earned from particpating coin." Even just selling they still made 50k more than anyone else.
Person 6 has no coin until he sells his rapture.
He pays: 1.25m
Gets a rapture
Currently he has:
-1,250,000 coins
+1 rapture
1 hour later he sells a rapture to somebody for 1,500,000 coins.
His gross profit from the whole operation is:
1,500,000
(1,250,000)
250,000
You're assuming his 250,000 he took was a positive cash flow, when in fact he paid out a net of 1,250,000 coins.
His actual cash flow is (1,250,000) until he sells the rapture. Which then we can see the actualization of his 250,000 gain.
Which is the same as everyone else.
You're also assuming he sells it at 1.8m, which is catshop selling price. You guys sold it to him at catshop buy price. That's your problem. You should determine what fair market value for the rapture for you is, before sellign it to him.
What he sells it for is an arbitrary number that fluctuates. For all we know, PWI gives out raptures for free, and they become worthless, in which he then loses all his money.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Ajani - Harshlands wrote: »People like this that ruin the game. They get 101 by facerolling on a keyboard and still still win. Please go to school!! Ur mind.. it is empty!!!
P.s. Teletubbies arent realzzzz
I said kindly explain to me what I did wrong, you were neither kind nor did you add any insight to where I am wrong. Bye love.Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »Person 6 has no coin until he sells his rapture.
He pays: 1.25m
Gets a rapture
Currently he has:
-1,250,000 coins
+1 rapture
1 hour later he sells a rapture to somebody for 1,500,000 coins.
His gross profit from the whole operation is:
1,500,000
(1,250,000)
250,000
Well, why is he selling the rapture at the same price he bought it for? You did that in your favor to help you be right. He would never do that, he would sell it around the other catshops which in my example was stated at 1.8 million. Which in turn would give him +550k off the run to everyone elses 250k0 -
SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »I said kindly explain to me what I did wrong, you were neither kind nor did you add any insight to where I am wrong. Bye love.
Well, why is he selling the rapture at the same price he bought it for? You did that in your favor to help you be right. He would never do that, he would sell it around the other catshops which in my example was stated at 1.8 million. Which in turn would give him +550k off the run to everyone elses 250k
So why would you sell it to him at a catshop buy price (1.5) when you could sell it for catshop sell price (1.8)?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »So why would you sell it to him at a catshop buy price (1.5) when you could sell it for catshop sell price (1.8)?
-_-' You being serious? This is a squads rapture, not MINE...
I'm arguing that buying it Catshop price is beneficial enough, why do they need the extra coins for participating. If you want to buy raps/unc just set up a shop don't do a run. But people have spoiled others into buying the mats from the run and allowing them to abuse it where 1 person doubles what the others make when it's all said and done.0 -
SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »I said kindly explain to me what I did wrong, you were neither kind nor did you add any insight to where I am wrong. Bye love.
Sorry love. All i see is 7 pages of people teaching you... a 5 year old would get it by now but ur either too dumb, too stubborn or just a fail troll.PVP: 3800 kills in the name of KD lawl
Retired as of 18/11/09
Back as of 22/11/10
Archer retired as of 26/12/100 -
SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »-_-' You being serious? This is a squads rapture, not MINE...
So someone banks it, sells it for 1.8 and then mails everyone the money.
Your comparison doesn't make sense because you're taking the cost of a good and comparing it to the retail value.
Of course the retail value is going to be higher.SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »-_-' You being serious? This is a squads rapture, not MINE...
I'm arguing that buying it Catshop price is beneficial enough, why do they need the extra coins for participating. If you want to buy raps/unc just set up a shop don't do a run. But people have spoiled others into buying the mats from the run and allowing them to abuse it where 1 person doubles what the others make when it's all said and done.
What the person sells it for is an arbitrary number determined by economic events, consumer tastes and supplier capacity. That's a fluctuating number, and the retailer runs the risk of his inventory dropping in value.
For all you know, prices could drop to 1.3m tomorrow and he loses his investment.
Or for all you know, somebody could be selling a Love: Up and Down for 250k and you had the money to buy it, and he didn't (since he bought the rapture).
You see, what happens after your transaction is purely hypothetical, and thus beyond scope of our discussion.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
You keep going back to what the person who buys the rap will do with it AFTER the squad has disbanded. Catshop S>1.8mil has NOTHING to do with making this calculation... Until you get that point, nobody can help you understand the logic of a fair split because YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO LISTEN!SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »@Aesp, who would offer to buy the mat 150k over the highest cat shop price?
Also, just wondering how many of you guys farm random squad for the drops? Random squads are mainly for the coin amiright? So wouldn't you want to maximize your POTENTIAL earning?
Catshop B>1.5mil Member 6> 1.5mil (1 Rapture dropped, nothing else) Catshop S>1.8mil
Members / Bank / 1 hour later (rap has been sold)
1. 250k / 0 / 250k
2. 250k / 0 / 250k
3. 250k / 0 / 250k
4. 250k / 0 / 250k
5. 250k / 0 / 250k
6. 250k + Rapture, / -1.5mil / 550k
^ That's not equal to me? Provided the person buying from squad is going to resell it, this is why I don't feel they should get their "earned from particpating coin." Even just selling they still made 50k more than anyone else.
Kindly point out what I did wrong there please. This is what I've been arguing all evening...
You're problem is that you somehow think that someone collecting raptures, for whatever purpose, is relevant to your squad trying to SELL raptures. If your squad is SELLING the only thing that matters is what the best BUYING price is you can find from a cat-shop or from any other player (in squad or out doesn't matter). I bought raptures from squad mates because I was saving them up to make a Nirvana weap, but I could care less if someone else in squad was buying raps to flip them for a profit on an alt catshop because the only thing that matters to my Nirvana squad was the BUYING price. If you count what people would do with them afterward you can convince yourself of all sorts of illogical claims...
You asked for someone to help you figure out how this is logical. Your error is that you are considering what people do with raptures after your squad sells to them. Regardless of whether you sold to a squad member or a catshop it is illogical to consider what they do with the raptures or uncannies after the transaction by your squad to convert their drops to coin.
If you want to insist that it matters, then consider the guy that hoards his raptures after buying them from squad for a mere 1.5m and sells them at 3.0m six months from now when an expansion comes out with a new Nirvana 3rd cast the blows away R9. Will you be crying then that you were ripped off now? If you say yes, that's an illogical response as you don't know what the person will do with the raps after you sold them, you only care about what price you were able to get when YOU sold it.
To use another analogy, say you have a beat up used car that you sell for $1000 to some kid; you have 5 other offers but they are all < $1000. Are you going to be crying foul if it turns out that this kid is actually a mechanic's apprentice and rather than just driving the car into the ground he fixes it up out of spare parts in his dad's garage and sells the car to someone else for $5000. The point is that when YOU sold the car, the best offer you had was $1000. What happens to that car after you sold it is not part of your equation.
Edit to add....
So compounding the problem of you not listening, you have made the arrogant assumption of HOW people should buy raps/uncannies. Sorry, but it's not for you to tell others how to do their business. It is up to you to not get snookered by an unfair trade, and you seem to think that if anyone buys from a squad that it is unfair to you, but you're wrong there and until you get it that only the buy price matters, you'll continue to be wrong.SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »If you want to buy raps/unc just set up a shop don't do a run.0 -
Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »So someone banks it, sells it for 1.8 and then mails everyone the money.
Your comparison doesn't make sense because you're taking the cost of a good and comparing it to the retail value.
Of course the retail value is going to be higher.
No one will do that in a random squad...0 -
The sentiment here is, what happens after your transaction with your squadmate is hypothetical.
When you sell your rapture after the Nirvana run, you are selling it for a price you are willing to accept - fair value.
What happens after this transaction has no bearing on the validity of your transaction, because given the circumstances of your transaction, they were fair (unless you consciously sold it for a lower price, in which case it would be your fault).
Using my above example, for all you know, right after you sell the guy your rapture, someone throws a Love: Up and Down on sale for 250k.
You would then have the money to make that purchase, while the person who just bought the rapture would not.
In that case, you would be the one making a big gain, and not him.
In either case, both events occur after the transaction, and thus has no effect or implications on the initial transaction at all.
They are separate from each other.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »@Aesp, who would offer to buy the mat 150k over the highest cat shop price?
Also, just wondering how many of you guys farm random squad for the drops? Random squads are mainly for the coin amiright? So wouldn't you want to maximize your POTENTIAL earning?
Catshop B>1.5mil Member 6> 1.5mil (1 Rapture dropped, nothing else) Catshop S>1.8mil
Members / Bank / 1 hour later (rap has been sold)
1. 250k / 0 / 250k
2. 250k / 0 / 250k
3. 250k / 0 / 250k
4. 250k / 0 / 250k
5. 250k / 0 / 250k
6. 250k + Rapture, / -1.5mil / 550k
^ That's not equal to me? Provided the person buying from squad is going to resell it, this is why I don't feel they should get their "earned from particpating coin." Even just selling they still made 50k more than anyone else.
Kindly point out what I did wrong there please. This is what I've been arguing all evening...
Maybe you will understand this logic better if you place yourself as the buyer in the picture.
Say you have 1.5 mil in your inventory before you go on the nirvana run, and the 5 other members in your squad goes into the run with 0$ in their inventory. After the run, the only thing that is dropped that has value is one rapture that is valued at 1.5 mil. You yourself decides to buy the rapture at 1.5 mil.
Before run:
You the buyer: 1.5 mil
Member 1: 0$
Member 2: 0$
Member 3: 0$
Member 4: 0$
Member 5: 0$
So you drop 1.5 mil onto the ground and your inventory now has 0$. Someone in the squad picks up that 1.5 mil, and the game splits that amount by 6 and every one including yourself now get 250k.
Now the other 5 members of the squad walks away with 250k in their inventory. You walk away with 250k only in your inventory and a rapture that is valued at 1.5 mil. You no longer have that 1.5 mil you started out with before the run. You as the buyer only became 250k richer like the rest of the squad members if you resale that rapture for 1.5 mil.
After run:
You have: 250k + raputre valued at 1.5 mil
(your total worth is 1.75 mil, so you only had gain 250k)
Member 1: 250k
Member 2: 250k
Member 3: 250k
Member 4: 250k
Member 5: 250k
If you don't understand this, then all I have to say is that I wished you were on Sanctuary server so we can do nirvana runs together, and you can be the buyer for our drops, but the way of splitting is like you prefer - 5 way split only and the buyer (you) gets no money from the run
I am certain that there will be no objection to this by any one in the squad , and yourself as the buyer thinks you gain an equal share of the drops farmed.0 -
I'm actually going to defend you here.SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »That's not equal to me? Provided the person buying from squad is going to resell it, this is why I don't feel they should get their "earned from particpating coin." Even just selling they still made 50k more than anyone else.
Your logic is actually a lot more common than what others might think. It is human nature to be jealous of others when they see them being smarter or more resourceful about what they do with their portion of the earnings.
The player who buys the Stone from the rest of the party does indeed benefit more because they are being more resourceful. By putting in extra effort, they earn extra. I say more power to them, and if you want then you too can bid to buy it instead and be equally as resourceful.
But you don't want it, and they do, so you won't bid and thus you will not benefit as much as they did.
That part of your argument does indeed make sense.
The divergence in opinion, though, is that the majority of players aren't interested in punishing the resourceful player by dragging him down to the same earning level as the players who are not willing to put in the extra effort. They don't care that the resourceful player is able to buy a Stone for cheaper than he would have otherwise, because they do not feel entitled to receive a portion of the earnings from what the resourceful player does outside of the party.
You, however, do want him dragged down. While you're not willing to put in the effort yourself, you also don't want anybody else to be able to put in the effort either, because that would make you jealous.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Neodaystar - Sanctuary wrote: »Maybe you will understand this logic better if you place yourself as the buyer in the picture.
Say you have 1.5 mil in your inventory before you go on the nirvana run, and the 5 other members in your squad goes into the run with 0$ in their inventory. After the run, the only thing that is dropped that has value is one rapture that is valued at 1.5 mil. You yourself decides to buy the rapture at 1.5 mil.
Before run:
You the buyer: 1.5 mil
Member 1: 0$
Member 2: 0$
Member 3: 0$
Member 4: 0$
Member 5: 0$
So you drop 1.5 mil onto the ground and your inventory now has 0$. Someone in the squad picks up that 1.5 mil, and the game splits that amount by 6 and every one including yourself now get 250k.
Now the other 5 members of the squad walks away with 250k in their inventory. You walk away with 250k only in your inventory and a rapture that is valued at 1.5 mil. You no longer have that 1.5 mil you started out with before the run. You as the buyer only became 250k richer like the rest of the squad members if you resale that rapture for 1.5 mil.
After run:
You have: 250k + raputre valued at 1.5 mil
(your total worth is 1.75 mil, so you only had gain 250k)
Member 1: 250k
Member 2: 250k
Member 3: 250k
Member 4: 250k
Member 5: 250k
If you don't understand this, then all I have to say is that I wished you were on Sanctuary server so we can do nirvana runs together, and you can be the buyer for our drops, but the way of splitting is like you prefer - 5 way split only and the buyer (you) gets no money from the run
You did nothing but rewrite what I did...I never buy from NV but I probably will start now tbh, for the "potential" gain. It is hardly a risk at all, due to prices being consistent around 1.6-1.9mil range. (on LC)
It's become clear that I am the only one who thinks this way, therefore I have no risk of being buyer and only the 5 members split my money for the Rapture.0 -
SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »You did nothing but rewrite what I did...I never buy from NV but I probably will start now tbh, for the "potential" gain. It is hardly a risk at all, due to prices being consistent around 1.6-1.9mil range. (on LC)
It's become clear that I am the only one who thinks this way, therefore I have no risk of being buyer and only the 5 members split my money for the Rapture.
Then there's one of two things you can do:
1. Sell the rapture as a squad for the going market price. This shouldn't be difficult at all since you said prices are consistent and stable.
2. Buy the rapture yourself, put in the effort and sell it for a higher price. Just don't complain 2 hours later if you can't sell it
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »I'm actually going to defend you here.
Your logic is actually a lot more common than what others might think. It is human nature to be jealous of others when they see them being smarter or more resourceful about what they do with their portion of the earnings.
The player who buys the Stone from the rest of the party does indeed benefit more because they are being more resourceful. By putting in extra effort, they earn extra. I say more power to them, and if you want then you too can bid to buy it instead and be equally as resourceful.
But you don't want it, and they do, so you won't bid and thus you will not benefit as much as they did.
That part of your argument does indeed make sense.
The divergence in opinion, though, is that the majority of players aren't interested in punishing the resourceful player by dragging him down to the same earning level as the players who are not willing to put in the extra effort. They don't care that the resourceful player is able to buy a Stone for cheaper than he would have otherwise, because they do not feel entitled to receive a portion of the earnings from what the resourceful player does outside of the party.
You, however, do want him dragged down. While you're not willing to put in the effort yourself, you also don't want anybody else to be able to put in the effort either, because that would make you jealous.
Finally, someone who sees my point here, while I guess you could call it jealousy, it's just frustrating to me when someone buys something and then immediately starts shouting, drop coins, drop coins. Mainly because I don't feel they should be rewarded with mat and coins, since you may or may not have read my previous posts, they already got it cheap. We'll stop here and just call it jealousy though.0 -
SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »You did nothing but rewrite what I did...I never buy from NV but I probably will start now tbh, for the "potential" gain. It is hardly a risk at all, due to prices being consistent around 1.6-1.9mil range. (on LC)
It's become clear that I am the only one who thinks this way, therefore I have no risk of being buyer and only the 5 members split my money for the Rapture.
No, I did not just rewrite what you did, I only tried to make you see that everyone had an equal share of the drops from the run if it was a 6 way split, and the person with the drops sells it for no higher or lesser than what he/she bought if for.
If you decide to be the buyer for all the runs now, and agree to a 5 way split for the profit and the buyer gets no coins, then best of luck to you I am positive you will find squads very easily. 0 -
After read 7 pages and all the fair split examples, pizza ones was the best, LOL.................
If you are thinking that the rapture buyer is going to resell it later for some more profit you NEVER will understand the split.
Next Vana run: Buy the dam rapture, drop the buy price coins, pick up coins, every squad member get his profit, leave squad, now you got a rapture crystal, set a shop selling raptures more expensives, have fun..............[SIGPIC]C:\Users\Fatima\Pictures\neivindicatequickfix.png[/SIGPIC]0 -
since this thread keep growing, i'll ask something else.
if u sell to the catshop (i think that more catshops resell them than players that say that they need it) then the catshop makes profit from reselling it. ~200k or so according to your numbers.
now ofc you might argue that the catshop stays there all day waiting for raptures so it deserves the profit; on the other hand the catshop sells the raptures in the same time while the squad mate will have to spend extra time to sell them.
in any case; u get the same coins as if u sold it to a catshop, someone maybe will make more profit in both cases (Assuming that the squad mate lied and wont use it for his weapon).
in the end, it's up to you to play with the rules u think fair
fariness and justice is mostly based to what most ppl think that is fair and changes during the time and societies. practical limitations also apply (for example it is impossible to find out if the catshop is an alt).0 -
Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »Then there's one of two things you can do:
1. Sell the rapture as a squad for the going market price. This shouldn't be difficult at all since you said prices are consistent and stable.
2. Buy the rapture yourself, put in the effort and sell it for a higher price. Just don't complain 2 hours later if you can't sell it
@Warren, just realized I could have worded it different. Not punished. Just not rewared twice.
And no, I'm a decent merchant in my eyes, not anywhere near warren and roid and countless others, but to toot my own horn, which may not seem like a lot to someone is quite a bit to me, but in the past month went from 3mil-~90mil atm, bought 99 boots/wrists/neck/belt too though
Selling it shouldn't be a problem.0 -
Perhaps the fact that you've had experience as a merchant is why you're seeing things differently than most people do. You're seeing the potential profits and seeing that they're not getting divided up.SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »@Warren, just realized I could have worded it different. Not punished. Just not rewared twice.
And no, I'm a decent merchant in my eyes, not anywhere near warren and roid and countless others, but to toot my own horn, which may not seem like a lot to someone is quite a bit to me, but in the past month went from 3mil-~90mil atm, bought 99 boots/wrists/neck/belt too though
Selling it shouldn't be a problem.
My advice is to simply shrug and walk away. As a merchant you can't worry too much about somebody else earning money that could have been yours, because you should instead be spending your time and effort on the bigger profits and letting others have as many scraps as they want. b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
Why are you still stuck on that 1.8 mil? Ok, why would you guys ever sell it to the catshop when it'll sell for 1.8 mil and make 400k? By your logic, that catshop just made 400k and it didn't even do the run! ZOMG don't ever sell crystals to catshops again? IT got the benefit of buying at catshop price... for being a catshop! Buying at 1.4 mil is not a benefit but the market price. He didn't have to do the run to able to buy it for 1.4 mil. If other shops are buying at 1.35, he could have easily set a shop for 1.4 mil and you guys would have sold it to him anyways.
I have bought hundreds of raps at catshop price, by leaving a shop alt there. If I had to be on the each run that produced the crystals to able to buy at catshop price... good god I'll be dead. So there you go, being able to buy raps for 50k higher than the rest of the shop isn't a privilege.
If you guys are not going to wait and find a buyer for 1.8 mil, then you would have to sell at 1.4 or 1.35 right? The fact that you guys are not going to sell it for 1.8 mil anyways means that SOMEONE, if resold the crystal at 1.8, will make 400-450k. Now would you rather it be the catshop or someone who farmed it? For all you know, he's saving it for his weapon so will never resell. If there's another way to get crystals for 1.4 mil, (set up shop himself next to the 1.35 mil ones), then he'll never have to pay 1.8 mil in the future for a rap anyways, so he's not saving any money for a future purchase either.0 -
try making a logical complaint/argument before making a thread calling someones logic into question b:surrender0
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WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »Perhaps the fact that you've had experience as a merchant is why you're seeing things differently than most people do. You're seeing the potential profits and seeing that they're not getting divided up.
My advice is to simply shrug and walk away. As a merchant you can't worry too much about somebody else earning money that could have been yours, because you should instead be spending your time and effort on the bigger profits and letting others have as many scraps as they want. b:chuckle
I 'spose you're right.0 -
Wow how did this go on for so long lol?
Is this like a joke thread?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Gahzirraaaaah!Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
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Qui: b:dirty0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Wow how did this go on for so long lol?
Is this like a joke thread?
I was just wondering that lol b:laugh0 -
Dsholder - Dreamweaver wrote: »Just be careful when you let people buy something. If squad decides to sell rapture for 1.4m then make the buyer in squad trade 1.4m instead of (1.4M minus their share) that way it will be split evenly when the squad leader does drop the 1.4m
Easier way, Trade the rapture and drop and pick up 1.4 mill coins. Everyone gets their share.
To OP, you are wrong. You actually got more coins than you would have if you sold to the catshop.0 -
Christ, I can't believe this thread is still going on. I have dealt with this very same issue, where I bought rap, split coins, and was accused of dishonestly. Here's what I did....
I told the guy banking I would log onto my catshop to buy the rap (going rate was 1.8m at the time). I log catshop, pm him, buy rap in catshop, log back onto my sin, and the guy drops coin so we split evenly. I explain to him that it doesn't matter whether he sells to someone else's catshop, or my catshop, or sells to me, or simply gives me the rap and I drop coin; we ALL get the same split, regardless.
I want to say I never squadded with the guy again, but he has +12 striking dragon b:sad0
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