Frostcovered Land-FC What's going on?

Mephistic - Dreamweaver

So umm... I'm an Archer and I have been denied entry to a few FC runs in the past week because the person preferred an Assassin more. I am experienced and an all round good archer/DD, so my skills are not the issue. I just want to inquire as to why Assassins are picked over Archers lately, is there any big bad reason? Frankly I just find it annoying when I respond before a party is full and the person says "we'd prefer an assassin sorry".

The cherry on top was earlier today, I joined an FC run all was dandy, I was like "woooo" . Then the squad starts talking...in SQUAD chat that they would rather have an Assassin as if i'm not there lol, so I just left! "Let them find their precious assassin", I said.

My guess for the favoring would have to be the difference in APS, but is that what this games has come to? throwing aside the value of intermingling and teamwork for a quicker kill? I just don't see it folks... such a shame.

Can anyone out there enlighten me on this situation? let me hear your thoughts.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

I have seen that lately too. Disheartening because I love FF on my archer. b:sad

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Assassin's are **** in FC, if someone would rather have an assassin in FC than an archer then they are an idiot and you shouldn't be running with them in the first place.

Allisandre - Sanctuary

It's like venos without hercs not getting runs. Pretty soon you won't be accepted unless you have R8 or better.

Shulkie - Dreamweaver

its all about EXPERIENCE these days - thats experience (to level) not experience of the game. They are of the mindset not to take archers because if you sharptooth - boom less experience for them from the boss. waah waah QQ you lost me .01% exp on that boss ragequit/rageboot. I miss when FC squads before hypers. Even with just esoterics the exp gain was higher than rebirth gamma for about 1/3 of the time so you could get almost 3 runs and 3 times times the exp in the same time (and with less chance of failure) than RB gamma. Now with hypers it is even more exp. so people dont want to take the chance of losing even the smallest amount.

it's the players themselves that are taking the fun out of the game imho.

Mephistic - Dreamweaver

Lol, I thought as much ces't dommage. Glad I am not alone in this feeling. I HATE using the word noob, but I get the feeling these people are exactly that b:surrender

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

A sin with decent base aps and demon spark means way quicker bosses. It also means that you can skip the first two rooms which are pretty quick to do though. Sin AoEs aren't too good but it doesn't actually matter as the mobs die pretty quickly anyway. If you have two or more sins demon spark at bosses with HF + mire, it's very fast.

Having one or more sins is nice but definitely not necessary.

Okeano - Harshlands

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Assassin's are **** in FC, if someone would rather have an assassin in FC than an archer then they are an idiot and you shouldn't be running with them in the first place.

tbh, Sins aren't bad in FC really. We suck in RB(GV), because all the mobs have a lot of HP and our AoEs do almost nothing to them in terms of % HP per combo. However, the mobs in FC are low enough HP that the 2 AoE moves from Sin with CoD on can take out a significant portion of their HP. Even for the EXP room pull, triple spark + 2 AoEs do enough damage that I use to take aggro and have to force stealth right after. Bloodpaint also makes BM and Barb's life a bit simpler.

Solution? Go with friends. You see that everyone asks for Sin now, but back then, almost no one wanted Sins and I had to make squads with friends only.

CuteButEvil - Harshlands

I'm a sin and I actually like squads that have both. Archers are better at hands than me but I can solo shades so barbies can pull. Besides, I notice archers are good at heads :P If it's my squad I'd honestly pick an archer over a second sin.

But if you want somebody to go solo the shades, you're gonna need at least one sin.

tweakz

Blood Paint alone means the tank doesn't need healing = more dd from cleric.

*And rank 8 requires lvl 100+ and probably should be minimal for such an ff run.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

Lately people have been using assassins for pulling halls and DDing at bosses. Their AoE dding nowhere compares to what an archer/wizard can deal (especially needed for the big room).

Also at 9x, 1 AoE damage dealer would more than suffice in conjunction to heaven's flame (even the mobs in big room die quickly).

This would mean that squads go faster when you have good DDs for bosses which could explain the frenzy for assassins. Ive seen really bad assassins on runs and good ones just like any other class.

So yea, I guess its just luck or what some people are used to. At my lvl I have never been preferred over an assassin if there were no AoE DDs in the squad, besides I also use fists at bosses whenever possible. Also it could be that at my lvl things die fast enough for people to not simply care what sort of DD they have.

All I see are tank, puller, cleric and 3 DDs needed for FC, doesnt matter who does what role (except for the cleric).

Edit: Rephrased after Sasha and Myra's Comment

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

A sin with decent base aps and demon spark means way quicker bosses. It also means that you can skip the first two rooms which are pretty quick to do though. Sin AoEs aren't too good but it doesn't actually matter as the mobs die pretty quickly anyway. If you have two or more sins demon spark at bosses with HF + mire, it's very fast.

Having one or more sins is nice but definitely not necessary.

I would agree, except for his lvl which, if the icon is correct 86. At that lvl sin suck... They barely have any aps, their aoe skills suck; & unless it's an alt of some decent high lvl player, the skills will suck as well. Only they get their demon sparks, if they do, then I agree.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Sins are not bad in FF runs, especially lower levels (OP is in the 80s so I'm tailoring response to that level), besides a herc veno, they are likely one of the best DDs on bosses. In several I've done on my sin 80-90 I've been picked over wizards, psychics, and archers.. but generally along side of herc'd venos.

Sure other classes can AOE much better but **** mobs here that need to be AOE dies too fast for that to be much of a concern, unlike RB. It's the bosses that need to die faster and a sin is good DPS as well as heals per hit for a barb and bm. They can take out a shade on their own so less concern pulling the first few rooms (which are **** XP for anyone that can actually partake in opening a FF). Barb has beastial + surf impact + bp and they, as well as the bm (can sweep/fissure/cleave to their heart's desire thanks to bp) are far less concerned about dying, especially on the magic group pull where it's usually deadliest to those two classes.

CaffeineEvil - Harshlands

I never really have a problem getting FC squads. I'm amazing at the hand job...b:laugh

Okeano - Harshlands

CaffeineEvil - Harshlands wrote: »

I never really have a problem getting FC squads. I'm amazing at the hand job...b:laugh

Practice makes perfect.

TigerLily - Lost City

Well 90+ Frost is always looking for BM + Sin DD first, since its the fastest setup.

Sins run a head and kills of all the Shades + Bishop and barb can pull all mobs at the same time. A lvl 90 sin have way better dps on the bosses than archer do, a fist BM have better dps on bosses to. Mobs dies so fast in Frost at 90+ so you really dont need powerful aoe skills like Barrage or Heavens Breath. Its more beneficial to invite classes that makes the bosses die faster.

The few active barbs that does Frost will of course join the party with the best DDs since its less repair and faster leveling. So you cant really say "but go Frost with other archers, wizard, psychics than" since its pretty much impossible to find a tank on same level.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

tbh, Sins aren't bad in FC really. We suck in RB(GV), because all the mobs have a lot of HP and our AoEs do almost nothing to them in terms of % HP per combo. However, the mobs in FC are low enough HP that the 2 AoE moves from Sin with CoD on can take out a significant portion of their HP. Even for the EXP room pull, triple spark + 2 AoEs do enough damage that I use to take aggro and have to force stealth right after. Bloodpaint also makes BM and Barb's life a bit simpler.

Solution? Go with friends. You see that everyone asks for Sin now, but back then, almost no one wanted Sins and I had to make squads with friends only.

I see your point, but still, archers > assassins.


And, the two sin AOEs are probably enough at 90+ but for 8x doing FC the mobs need a little bit more abuse before they go down.

Blood Paint alone means the tank doesn't need healing = more dd from cleric.

lolwut? Bloodpaint isn't nearly enough healing if the people running are under level 99

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

All I see are "Need tank, puller, cleric and 3 DDs for FC", doesnt matter who does what role (except for the cleric).

wait... how many people can you have in a squad?

the main reason is blood paint, since either a BM a barb is pretty much running the show both of them love bloodpaint to death, as do the clerics, since it reduces their required attentiveness to the barb/bm.

not only that but a lot of archers, that i've run with anyway, hit the mobs first, especially leading up to the bishop-spawning boss, which is just annoying to the melees in the party because they have to chase after mobs 1 by one, slowing everything down.
ST + wingspam = annoyed BM and barb.

with a sin, that doesnt happen, and a BM can do most of the pulls with very minimal heals.

the problem with wizards (more so in the 80's) is that a lot of them go pure magic to max their DD without too much focus on physical defense, so on every physical group pull, they end up pulling agro from the group and dying, though the mobs are grouped up, so its more of a personal problem for the wiz than a group annoyance like the archers can be. sins with low defenses will generally tail the tank on the pulls, because the only place they can be show-offs in on bosses.

Lanyiara - Harshlands

Everyone has pretty much already said everything that needs saying.

People are too concerned over time and not concerned enough about learning or even considering they might need to learn how to work together with the whole range of classes.

Its getting even worse now tho, its becoming specific enough that people demand Demon Sins and that you PM your weapon and APS to join some particularly fussy FC squads now. Almost as bad as Nirvana. Havent seen many of those though.

Seriously, I actually got booted when I Sage sparked on that first shade once. And asked if I chose the wrong quest while I timed out of the instance. Haters lol.

--"lolwut? Bloodpaint isn't nearly enough healing if the people running are under level 99"
Combined with Crab Meat, any decent geared BM can tank FC pulls on bloodpaint. Even in 80 gear. As for the bosses, BP + Crabmeat means things also tend to die without much healing aside the bosses that do AoEs.

---

Also imma start posting on my sin since this cleric is just a nirvana ***** and no longer played aside that. P:

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Lanyiara - Harshlands wrote: »

Everyone has pretty much already said everything that needs saying.

People are too concerned over time and not concerned enough about learning or even considering they might need to learn how to work together with the whole range of classes.

Its getting even worse now tho, its becoming specific enough that people demand Demon Sins and that you PM your weapon and APS to join some particularly fussy FC squads now. Almost as bad as Nirvana. Havent seen many of those though.

Seriously, I actually got booted when I Sage sparked on that first shade once. And asked if I chose the wrong quest while I timed out of the instance. Haters lol.

--"lolwut? Bloodpaint isn't nearly enough healing if the people running are under level 99"
Combined with Crab Meat, any decent geared BM can tank FC pulls on bloodpaint. Even in 80 gear. As for the bosses, BP + Crabmeat means things also tend to die without much healing aside the bosses that do AoEs.

---

Also imma start posting on my sin since this cleric is just a nirvana ***** and no longer played aside that. P:

My sin is going sage. I would note down who is giving you **** for being sage (esp if it's a bm or barb or another sin) so when it comes time for Nirvana and you're a 4 APS sage sin with sage BP, make sure they don't get it. Kick the sage sin, don't get the benefit of it later on. Quite simple. I've known sage sins willing to just BP themselves because ppl gave them **** for it in the 90s.

Mephistic - Dreamweaver

Thanks for all your thoughts guys, I guess i'll just have to deal with the times and adapt. Hopefully it gets better for me b:victory lol

Naivety - Harshlands

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

My sin is going sage. I would note down who is giving you **** for being sage (esp if it's a bm or barb or another sin) so when it comes time for Nirvana and you're a 4 APS sage sin with sage BP, make sure they don't get it. Kick the sage sin, don't get the benefit of it later on. Quite simple. I've known sage sins willing to just BP themselves because ppl gave them **** for it in the 90s.

lol4aps

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=878db4747e93b1cb

Il never be 4APS. Il have 2.5 while my wrists and boots are TT, il be using those til ive farmed up everything else, and I mean everything, including the 500 cannys and the cits for the nirvana'ing them.

I plan to drop what im supposed to (Other sins and archers. Sometimes Mage types) in a few hits, not lolAPSrape barbs and BMs. Im determined to prove that Sins can be more than just spark-kill bore machines. b:cute

Not that im against APS btw, I just dont think its the only path.
*Edit*
Why does my sin not have a damn avie >_>
Also this is Lany.

Okeano - Harshlands

Lanyiara - Harshlands wrote: »

Seriously, I actually got booted when I Sage sparked on that first shade once. And asked if I chose the wrong quest while I timed out of the instance. Haters lol.

ROFL. Yeah... that's a bit extreme.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

lol4aps

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=878db4747e93b1cb

Il never be 4APS. Il have 2.5 while my wrists and boots are TT, il be using those til ive farmed up everything else, and I mean everything, including the 500 cannys and the cits for the nirvana'ing them.

I plan to drop what im supposed to (Other sins and archers. Sometimes Mage types) in a few hits, not lolAPSrape barbs and BMs. Im determined to prove that Sins can be more than just spark-kill bore machines. b:cute

Not that im against APS btw, I just dont think its the only path.

Ok, that kinda went way off into left field. You don't think APS is the only path, esp for a sin, until you don't get into Nirvana squads when they ask "need DD for nirvana pm aps", then you go "2.22 APS but i r got teh skillz" and you get ignored and/or laughed at.

I'm making a sage sin specifically for 4 aps (I already have the tome -- my wife and I are already farming raps and cannys for the barrier thorn and legs, the 99 gear is cake), and while I have a 5 APS BM and, in 3 levels, a 5 APS archer, I like the "solo" way a sin can play in places like FF when I want to help friends level (I'm not leveling any char past level 101 with the current XP setup). The damage reduction helps in case there's a cleric fail, the sage bp is useful for self-sustainment, obviously lower APS means you aren't healing yourself as often with your hits. For a sin that means less survivability. Unfortunately APS is still the best way when it comes to bosses.

Btw, if you're gonna fork over that much for Citrine Gems, might wanna do +10 vit instead as that's more HP. I'm not gonna be terribly impressed about one's skillz if they don't even know what to shard in their own gear.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

wait... how many people can you have in a squad?

ST + wingspam = annoyed BM and barb.

1.) Having a full squad of 6 people is wrong now? b:shocked

2.) I usually use TB + (If HF is done) Wingspan and the mobs are too dead for the barb and BM to be annoyed unless they like to chase after dead stuff.

Myralis - Sanctuary

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

1.) Having a full squad of 6 people is wrong now? b:shocked

Theres a 7th person whos looking for said classes lol
Whatever class he himself is, if neither tank, cleric or DD xD

And I personally dont care if we take an archer around or a sin.
Bloodpaint is very nice but so is archer DD.

And getting kicked from squad for being sage... wow you met some stuck up idiots there b:shocked

Elviron - Dreamweaver

@Myralis
Well I wasnt stating whats being put on WC but more so like what people need and aim for in a FC squad. Guess it was not clear enough.

Naivety - Harshlands

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ok, that kinda went way off into left field. You don't think APS is the only path, esp for a sin, until you don't get into Nirvana squads when they ask "need DD for nirvana pm aps", then you go "2.22 APS but i r got teh skillz" and you get ignored and/or laughed at.

I'm making a sage sin specifically for 4 aps (I already have the tome -- my wife and I are already farming raps and cannys for the barrier thorn and legs, the 99 gear is cake), and while I have a 5 APS BM and, in 3 levels, a 5 APS archer, I like the "solo" way a sin can play in places like FF when I want to help friends level (I'm not leveling any char past level 101 with the current XP setup). The damage reduction helps in case there's a cleric fail, the sage bp is useful for self-sustainment, obviously lower APS means you aren't healing yourself as often with your hits. For a sin that means less survivability. Unfortunately APS is still the best way when it comes to bosses.

Btw, if you're gonna fork over that much for Citrine Gems, might wanna do +10 vit instead as that's more HP. I'm not gonna be terribly impressed about one's skillz if they don't even know what to shard in their own gear.

Old calc is old. And I mean OLD. I didnt know how much HP sins got for vit, since I dropped it to 3 at level 1 and never added a point. I only recently bothered to work it out and I still cant at this second remember if its 12 or 13. Its more than a Cit Gem tho, I know that.

As for Damage, PvP > PvE. I really couldnt give a flying **** about soloing FC, although it would be nice. As for Nirvana? Got my Cleric, and shes in high demand when I actually want to go Nirvana. Bloodpaint? Nice buff, but potting isnt that hard. 2.22 vs 4? I seriously couldnt care, I go with my friends enough on my cleric anyway. Barb, 2 Demon sins who are (I think) 2APS one of 2 BMs and a Wizard. Yeah, we take a Wizard to Nirvana. It might take us an hour to do the run, but its solid and weve never failed a run. We make money instead of QQing that noone will take us on runs cos not 4/5APS.

People can laugh all they like, but being teh pro at PvE means nothing if I drop you in PvP. Im on a PvP server, PvE is a means to an end, not what we play for. In most cases anyway. And because I can see it coming, trot off little people saying theyve killed my sin a lot. Everyone has, she was a corpse 50% of the time she was leveling to 74 because she wasnt really a serious alt, just some fun. Nowadays... She doesnt end up dead quite so much b:chuckle

I see no reason not to take APS as a Sage, but making a Sage sin specifically for 4APS/Bloodpaint? Why bother, go Demon, its cheaper and easier. Sage has other things to it than Bloodpaint, just like Demon has more to it than Spark.

Also, thread derailed, lets drag it to the Sin forums if you wanna continue

---

FC is just a prologue to how Nirvana has become. (On topic ftw b:victory)

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

jsut a quick note one the whole STA exp loss thingy:

even if it causes loss of EXP (never confirmed it personally/i never really cared anyway if i get some more exp or not) the archers could just not use it xd

on the other hand, a bm/arcer/sin/barb with deicides cannot really avoid the hp decrease.
so yeah, if you are an exp per boss ***** you better avoid deicides users too.

however with a deicide users u could probably do 2 runs in the same time so more exp even if it's decreased.


@OP: just follow some -int build it's pretty much the only option in the end

Naivety - Harshlands

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

jsut a quick note one the whole STA exp loss thingy:

even if it causes loss of EXP (never confirmed it personally/i never really cared anyway if i get some more exp or not) the archers could just not use it xd

on the other hand, a bm/arcer/sin/barb with deicides cannot really avoid the hp decrease.
so yeah, if you are an exp per boss ***** you better avoid deicides users too.

however with a deicide users u could probably do 2 runs in the same time so more exp even if it's decreased.


@OP: just follow some -int build it's pretty much the only option in the end

Actually, thats a good point.

I want proof if this has any effect. Not "so and so said". Not "I think". Not "In my last run". Proof.

(People who know how to set up an experiment, ignore this)
Several runs, where the only difference is use and lack of use of STA. Screenshotted EXP differences on each boss, static party (No changes, runs with different people are discounted, and if anyone levels between runs, discounted). Oh, and the exp per boss not overall, because some mobs reset and various other things. No bishop boss either, thatd mess with the exp too due to the mobs. (Stop ignoring this)

Mainly because I seriously see NOTHING in this rumour, theres no reason behind it. Mobs have EXP based on the monster, not how much HP it has. So why the hell would STA have an EXP reducing attribute?

I dont actually care about the result either way, ive done runs with 102's and 88's in the same squad and not been that bothered about the exp difference, due to the sheer speed of such a run, but id love to see this rumour put to rest. Or to surrender to my friends and say I was wrong, its not bullcrap.

Im willing to do this if any HL people want to help me test it. Need an archer ofc, I cant play one for my life lol.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

As for Damage, PvP > PvE. I really couldnt give a flying **** about soloing FC, although it would be nice. As for Nirvana? Got my Cleric, and shes in high demand when I actually want to go Nirvana. Bloodpaint? Nice buff, but potting isnt that hard. 2.22 vs 4? I seriously couldnt care, I go with my friends enough on my cleric anyway. Barb, 2 Demon sins who are (I think) 2APS one of 2 BMs and a Wizard. Yeah, we take a Wizard to Nirvana. It might take us an hour to do the run, but its solid and weve never failed a run. We make money instead of QQing that noone will take us on runs cos not 4/5APS.

Well, this topic is about FF, so.. soloing FF would be nice especially if taking friends on a run, especially if you're a much higher level and being in a higher level would **** on their XP, whereas just you being there wouldn't matter too much. I already sometimes play two characters in this instance, so one less is certainly a better idea for someone already doing it.

As for potting, true, but uh.. that doesn't work much for Nirvana, and is nothing compared to high dmg output + faster self-healing, which is like free IH's. 30-45 min Nirvana runs just my wife and I, so a random, full squad taking longer than that, to me, is not worth it. More APS, the better.

People can laugh all they like, but being teh pro at PvE means nothing if I drop you in PvP. Im on a PvP server, PvE is a means to an end, not what we play for. In most cases anyway. And because I can see it coming, trot off little people saying theyve killed my sin a lot. Everyone has, she was a corpse 50% of the time she was leveling to 74 because she wasnt really a serious alt, just some fun. Nowadays... She doesnt end up dead quite so much b:chuckle

I can see what you're saying in PVP, however, this wasn't about PVP, and I'm on HT, not HL. PVP doesn't matter a single bit to me nor this thread.

I see no reason not to take APS as a Sage, but making a Sage sin specifically for 4APS/Bloodpaint? Why bother, go Demon, its cheaper and easier. Sage has other things to it than Bloodpaint, just like Demon has more to it than Spark.

1. 25% reduction.
2. BP.
3. Passive dmg.
4. RS
5. ER/SS
6. Do I need to go over every skill that I like and/or prefer that's sage?

I'm well aware that technically it's cheaper to go 3.33 and spark 5 -- if you buy all your **** with real money. I've been farming raps/cannys, which are free, not expensive, so when my sin hits 100 I'll have all the stuff waiting for it. That's already the path my bm and archer have gone, though both may end up changing to sage as well. It also would be easier on HP and pdef to not bother with the Lionheart set but go with cube/warsong ornaments. However, I want 4 APS and closer to 5 with windshield.

FC is just a prologue to how Nirvana has become. (On topic ftw b:victory)

That's how squads have always been concerning classes. You do things their way or you make/find your own squad. There's always someone that gets treated unfairly but that's why you prove yourself useful to a squad. In the case of dmg, there is few cases in PVE instances where skillz alone is gonna get you in a squad when they don't know you, and you would easily be passed on in terms of someone with higher APS, because yours is particularly low. Sage 4 and Demon 5 don't matter much at all because they're both permaspark, and you'd still need to get most of the same gear anyways, especially the most expensive parts if you wanted to pass on the Lionheart ornaments.