should the fish be nerfed to make pvp fair?

Esnemyl - Dreamweaver

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

But sins can use them semi effectively.
xD
A mage with a bow would do practically nothing.
b:chuckle

You dont say >< Damn my psychic took forever to kill KunKun, that thing is terrifying b:shocked

@Loltank if I am correct, doesnt Elven Alicraty/Blessing of the Condor not allow anyone to give you movement debuffs or am I thinking wrong here(typing this at 6am -.o) ?

Shevanel - Sanctuary

Loltank - Harshlands wrote: »

tbh, they don't really need to nerf the tideborn. But they DO need to give mages and archers some sort of buff to set them apart from those classes, TW usefulness alone doesn't really cut it.

Agreed. I dunnowhat you'd do to an archer, but wizzies have a skill called elemental shell. It's a lvl 79 skill and it gives the target an Increase in magic defences. Instant cast, lasts 4 seconds.

Wizzies also have no anti stun skills. My idea was to change the skill to basically give 4 second instant antistun too.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Actually in regards to normal attacks, sins with bows are archers with:

1) less range
2) no bow mastery

They can even out DPS some archers due to their skills such as Inner Harmony (sparking more often) and Wolf Emblem.

b:bye

you need daggers to cast both, the weapon switching would cost you valuable dps time. archers spike harder with blazing arrow, mastery, etc. assassin with any weapon besides dagger is stupid . sure, you can use bow to avoid dangerous aoes, or draw less aggro, but otherwise its pointless.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

would say sins dont need a nerf such as the older casses need an update since imo the TB are what the other classes should have been from a skill standpoint (aka no useless or **** skills)

but on topic...sins really are horrificly overpowered in 1v1 pk and endgame pve

balance is not "but they kinda suck at tw" or "they're squish at 2x" since untill the TB release there was early game broken classes (pre 90 archers or nixes for example) but it all balnced out at 100 with +12 everything so endgame aka the only place balance mattered was about perfect

there is no realistic way to beat a competent sin in 1v1 pk on an = or similar gear level more than 1 in 3 times at best

you can kill the idiots ya...and the poor ones but that has never mattered and never will

to sum it up: all other factors assumed as equal if any class has more than a 1/1 kill/loss ratio vs every other class at endgame pvp its OP. pve was never balanced will never be and does not matter in a class vs class comparison.

@ waffle no they really do out DPS archers useing a bow in pve

@ shev the reason im rolling a wizzie as my PK ton is because they're the only class that can kill sins on a 2/3 kill death ratio at max gear if only because they have a higher gear cap... and a wizzie with a 4 second antistun spamable every 30 seconds thats instant cast...no...just no

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Let's see what sins have and don't have shall we?

Pros:

1. Argue-ably the highest DPS in the game
2. Some of the highest physical spike damage in the game due to attack level buffs
3. Stealth(God like that's not enough)
4. The ability to force stealth and flee from combat
5. 25% chance to reduce damage dealt to them to 1 or a 50% chance to avoid status ailments
6. Can increase their critical hit rate
7. Can increase their critical hit damage
8. Can slow their target's attack rate
9. Can effectively aoe multiple targets for short bursts
10. Receive health back when dealing damage to a target
11. Can lock a single opponent in place better then a bm due to the fact that a bm can be avoided with one anti-stun skill where as no one skill/apoth can neutralize all sin debuffs
12. Can not be one-shot even by the TT hands (come on!)
13. Have more chi gaining skills then the rest of the classes combined.
*14. And have the largest attack range of all classes due to their two teleports (farther than archer range)
*15. Arguably the greatest range DPS also

Cons:

1. Low HP (without heavy refines/sharding)
2. Lower physical and magical defense than HA or AA (though they do have evasion but that's eh end-game

Of course sadly Cons 1 & 2 only apply if the victim survives the initial stun combo and the sin has not forced stealth.


*just came up with this, feel free to add to either list*
*trying to be impartial* >.<

* by edited items

Shevanel - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

and a wizzie with a 4 second antistun spamable every 30 seconds thats instant cast...no...just no

50% chance to ignore movement debuffs?

How about a higher chance to dispell negative status ailments(rather than the lame 10%) and is usable while slept, stunned or sealed. Like a natural (non genie) way of getting out of a stunlock or cleric sleep. Also if It procs, you become Immune to a stun for the remainder of the skill.

*throws ideas around*

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

would say sins dont need a nerf such as the older casses need an update since imo the TB are what the other classes should have been from a skill standpoint (aka no useless or **** skills)

but on topic...sins really are horrificly overpowered in 1v1 pk and endgame pve

balance is not "but they kinda suck at tw" or "they're squish at 2x" since untill the TB release there was early game broken classes (pre 90 archers or nixes for example) but it all balnced out at 100 with +12 everything so endgame aka the only place balance mattered was about perfect

there is no realistic way to beat a competent sin in 1v1 pk on an = or similar gear level more than 1 in 3 times at best

you can kill the idiots ya...and the poor ones but that has never mattered and never will

to sum it up: all other factors assumed as equal if any class has more than a 1/1 kill/loss ratio vs every other class at endgame pvp its OP. pve was never balanced will never be and does not matter in a class vs class comparison.

@ waffle no they really do out DPS archers useing a bow in pve

@ shev the reason im rolling a wizzie as my PK ton is because they're the only class that can kill sins on a 2/3 kill death ratio at max gear if only because they have a higher gear cap... and a wizzie with a 4 second antistun spamable every 30 seconds thats instant cast...no...just no

i never see assassins beat HA classes. there are rare occasions where theyll get lucky with a bramble rage combo, but other than that, those same assassins ive seen attempting it again, even 2v1 lost against the BMs and barbs they attacked over and over again.

saying they out damage archers just because you say so is ****.
1. they do less damage with a bow
2. if archer has quickshot, they dont hit nearly as fast
3. they cant spark more if theyre using a bow, seeing as you need daggers to use your moves. gee, 2 sparks every minute, big damage dif, not. and if youre using a bow to avoid melee range, its pointless to even consider RDS or tackling
4. if you count it, STA is an auto 16.5-20% hp already cut off in favor towards archer
5. assassin cant BOA, giving archer huge dps in terms of multiple mob killing.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

hmm..
A demon archer gets .75 weapon attack from mastery and about .4 from blazing.
With an attack rate of around 1a/s they can demon spark about once a minute. Since demon spark lasts 15s they spend about 25% of the time demon sparked. Demon archers also have 2% more crit than demon sins with bows. Assuming a pure dex build with about 480 dex and 40% base crit.

(1+480/150+.75 +.4+.25*5)(.58*1+ .42*2) = 9.37


Sin has no blazing no mastery.. 240% crits.. and 2 sparks a minute for free while generating about 3 sparks a minute from auto attack. Thats 5 sparks a minute so demon sparking every... 36 seconds. Demon spark lasts 15s so thats 42% of the time sparked

(1+480/150+.42*5)(.6*1+.4*2.4) = 9.83

Sins apparently can out dps archers with bows. I guess you should add having highest ranged DPS to the PRO column in the ever growing list of sin advantages.

Okeano - Harshlands

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

i never see assassins beat HA classes. there are rare occasions where theyll get lucky with a bramble rage combo, but other than that, those same assassins ive seen attempting it again, even 2v1 lost against the BMs and barbs they attacked over and over again.

Really? Because I drop 10X BM and Barbs all the time with my "****" TT80 daggers. And no, I do not have a BR genie.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

@ shev the reason im rolling a wizzie as my PK ton is because they're the only class that can kill sins on a 2/3 kill death ratio at max gear if only because they have a higher gear cap... and a wizzie with a 4 second antistun spamable every 30 seconds thats instant cast...no...just no

Why does gear cap or w/e you are talking about matter to you, personally, in your choice of PvP toon? I doubt you'll reach 50% of that "cap" anyways. You hardly leveled in the past like... year.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

hmm..
A demon archer gets .75 weapon attack from mastery and about .4 from blazing.
With an attack rate of around 1a/s they can demon spark about once a minute. Since demon spark lasts 15s they spend about 25% of the time demon sparked. Demon archers also have 2% more crit than demon sins with bows. Assuming a pure dex build with about 480 dex and 40% base crit.

(1+480/150+.75 +.4+.25*5)(.58*1+ .42*2) = 9.37


Sin has no blazing no mastery.. 240% crits.. and 2 sparks a minute for free while generating about 3 sparks a minute from auto attack. Thats 5 sparks a minute so demon sparking every... 36 seconds. Demon spark lasts 15s so thats 42% of the time sparked

(1+480/150+.42*5)(.6*1+.4*2.4) = 9.83

Sins apparently can out dps archers with bows. I guess you should add having highest ranged DPS to the PRO column in the ever growing list of sin advantages.

couple of variables not listed that could probably lead to a difference:

-weapon switch to use inner harmony
-demon quickshot procs
-(this one sounds stupid, but friend insisted go on the list) crossbows vs bows vs slingshot
-whether or not you count STA into their overall damage
-AOE dps counts as dps, which assassins cannot do

Born_Free - Harshlands

Kaidosan - Harshlands wrote: »

well what the title says. this isn't a suggestion. it's an issue that needs to be enforced to balance pvp again.b:bye

The very INSTANT you hit 30, I'm coming after your ****. Nerf the fish indeed, *I'LL* nurf you in a second. If I do find you, I will be camping the living daylights out of you.

Next you'll be crying about nurfing the barbs massive HP, or disabling hercs and nix's, and archer's critical rates, or the BM's stun lock, or perhaps we can keep Wizards from nuking endgame damage.
OH, here's a thought, we can make clerics stop healing! Fantastic! You Kaido, are a damn genius! In fact, let's just give one another sticks, beat the **** out of one another's pixels, and call THAT PvP.

You don't wanna get killed by sins? Get on a PvE server. You stuck on a PvP server. Get the H3LL over it.b:bye

Okeano - Harshlands

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

-(this one sounds stupid, but friend insisted go on the list) crossbows vs bows vs slingshot

You consult your friends before posting? o.o

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

You consult your friends before posting? o.o

your point? two heads collaborating on one idea > one head trying to think alone.

Okeano - Harshlands

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

your point? two heads collaborating on one idea > one head trying to think alone.

Nothing b:avoid.

Magicsaber - Dreamweaver

Loltank - Harshlands wrote: »

tbh, they don't really need to nerf the tideborn. But they DO need to give mages and archers some sort of buff to set them apart from those classes, TW usefulness alone doesn't really cut it.

Look at Wizard dmg sucks vs Psychic dmg? to see calculations and results of tests of Wizard vs Psychic dps. I saw same results too.

So, author of above topic made following conclusion:

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

a psychic friend of mine ( who has also a 90+ wiz) told me that a nerf in terms of dmg would make lvling for psychics hard in the low lvls since they dont got knockback or distance shrink. But if you ask me a reduction of the dmg for spamable skills would be enough. I'll write a topic about the problem in the suggestion forum maybe there will be a response.

And here my thoughts at Suggestion box, added to thread of HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver.

Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I will vote for any proposition, that will restore balance between classes in Perfect World International.

P.S.
As side note: you can increase duration and/or decrease cooldown time of Wizard's Essential Sutra to reduce channeling time of Wizard's spells if this will be necessary to restore balance.

Or you can include cooldown time into Black voodoo (same way, but from other side), but this will be hard, very hard for Psychic.

Or ... exist many ways.

But this is my opinion as Wizard (my main character in game).

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

couple of variables not listed that could probably lead to a difference:

-weapon switch to use inner harmony
-demon quickshot procs
-(this one sounds stupid, but friend insisted go on the list) crossbows vs bows vs slingshot
-whether or not you count STA into their overall damage
-AOE dps counts as dps, which assassins cannot do

No I didnt count demon quickshot or take aim spam. I also didnt factor in genie skills. Hell I didnt even bother with the increased chi generation during demon spark and ignored the 3s spent sparking.

The question isnt about AOE dps or applying tooth. Its not even about which class can more effectively use a bow.

Its about ranged dps. If you look at what most archers and sins do using basic things like normal attack, passive skills, and sparking, the sin does more dps with a bow than an archer.

Now if you really want to complicate it by factor in everything the archer might come out even but I doubt it. With both spamming chi siphon to get another 2 sparks per minute and factoring in the increased chi generation during spark, the sin is going to have even a greater percent of the time sparked. The more the equation becomes about sparking the less effective archer skills are.

Conavar - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

They made fish OP so people would spend thousands rerolling a sin.

This ^^

And the next new class will be as OP vs Sins as Sins are atm. So people will re-roll to the " sin killer " = more $

But anyway .. No they dont need nurfing but tweaking abit.
Ie :Stealth/Force Stealth need a much longer cooldown, or an average but shared cooldown.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Triple spark in mid-air -> stealth back -> drop down -> stun tele and auto attack.

I hate sins ability to resist death and most importantly, if they double spark in stealth and auto attack it really hurts.

Loltank - Harshlands

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

The very INSTANT you hit 30, I'm coming after your ****. Nerf the fish indeed, *I'LL* nurf you in a second. If I do find you, I will be camping the living daylights out of you.

Next you'll be crying about nurfing the barbs massive HP, or disabling hercs and nix's, and archer's critical rates, or the BM's stun lock, or perhaps we can keep Wizards from nuking endgame damage.
OH, here's a thought, we can make clerics stop healing! Fantastic! You Kaido, are a damn genius! In fact, let's just give one another sticks, beat the **** out of one another's pixels, and call THAT PvP.

You don't wanna get killed by sins? Get on a PvE server. You stuck on a PvP server. Get the H3LL over it.b:bye

The only reason you're not OP is because your gear sucks and you're a terrible psychic.

Get to 9x and start outdoing mages on both the DPS AND DPH level. Until then, you can just keep quiet, or I'll "find your **** and nurf you in a second" since you're a one shot to literally all of my characters but maybe 2.

Dralighte - Harshlands

ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »

That is why Absolute Domain is a must, if sin gets u in 1 stun, use AD, force of will, and nuke em.

Considering your level 28, you cant have AD or force of will.

You forgot their buffs... 50% of chances to not be unbuffed
and without a genie, sins are impossible to kill. But I still have fun against them b:pleased

Aelo - Harshlands

PWI has too many variables to say that any one class is overpowered:
+ing gear
type of gear
gear attributes
pots
genie
network efficiency
luck from opening packs
etc etc

Kaidosan - Harshlands

Aelo - Harshlands wrote: »

PWI has too many variables to say that any one class is overpowered:
+ing gear
type of gear
gear attributes
pots
genie
network efficiency
luck from opening packs
etc etc

im sure u haven't read my earlier posts. what i implied was that the fish skills ~mostly sins~ r OP. they need to nerf the h3LL out of them because i keep hearing these cases of sins killing 9x arcane and archers with ease at 7x. this is a slap in the face when poor players such as myself r stricken to this fact. we absolutely stand no chance against a sin with same gear.

and what i mean is skill list v skill list. not genie nor pot. BUT THE SKILL LIST OF UR CHARACTER!!!

Tatuaje - Lost City

QQ Thread is QQ Thread

Just because your getting pwnd does not mean the world has to change. Try not to be more fail at your class. b:bye

I also smell someone who QQ if they get their rear handed to them constantly. Go join PVE if you can't handle losing.

Kaidosan - Harshlands

ur right this is a QQ thread. but u shouldn't post if ur a cashopper. u stand a better chance against them im sure because u have to use ur GENIE and ur POTS. i am not the only one who has a problem with them for i too use a high lvl sin and i've seen what they r capable of. so b4 u start denying me my right to speak out against the current pvp settings why don't u go hang urself. u would do us all a favor. and i've been on a pve server. that sucks. remember u flaming troll i am demanding they nerf the skills of the tide(sins mostly) to balance pvp and make it either way for a fight to end during a one v one encounter between EACH class.

Tatuaje - Lost City

The way you speak to everyone makes you look like a donkey's behind.

Try talking to people normally and people might actually want to support your theory.

Fail Forum user is a fail forum user. b:bye

Explain how this is not unfair: Veno with NIX owning pretty much all Arcanes using only normal skills. So basically someone can own someone else in someway or another.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Deora - Lost City wrote: »

I really do challenge everyone that calls sin's op, to actually ****ing play one, till then ****, they aren't op, you'll realize that very quick after playing one.

Also, sin's can't really stun lock, thats a bm thing, and why are people QQing about that now when bms have been able to do it for ages?

Not actually giving an opinion on whether sins are OP, but I really do challenge you to reach end game with that char, at least get some TT99s, maybe a +10 wep, 10k or so hp buffed, and then talk about whether the class is OP or not. As of now you probably don't have access to any decent gear unless you have rank VI, it stands to reason that you do not know how a well-geared assassin performs.

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Aelo - Harshlands wrote: »

PWI has too many variables to say that any one class is overpowered:
+ing gear $$$
type of gear $$$
gear attributes $$$
pots Charms for $$$
genie $$$
network efficiency $$$
luck from opening packs $$$
etc etc

hmm....
7/7 be stuff monies can buy......
zmog the cash shop class be overpowered!

Kaidosan - Harshlands

the way i speak to specific people such as ur person is deservant of the matter at hand. and when u say donkey's behind please imply the word of which u mean because a donkey's behind is also know as a donkey's rearend. this is a fail user

---

>Tatuaje<

---

because they can do what other people can't. cash shop and kill sin who r none cash shop. u fail because u have no idea what im talking about when i state that sins skill list in particular is OP in its self.

Tatuaje - Lost City

b:chuckle

Its been a while since the forums have been graced with such a butt hurt individual.

And your assesment can't be any more wrong with me.

But continue your QQ fail rant. Noone cares what your opinion is considering how you think you can talk to others.

Oh noes, CS SIN is so over-powered. PWI change now so my CS-less WIZ can own him b:cry

Kaidosan - Harshlands

listen sir. im not displaying absent remarks.
i state the truth. i have a question, how many times r u on the forums? do u talk to people ingame?
answer those 2 questions and get back to me when something of importance truly dawns on u.