Sage/Demon Last Words

XxArchmagexX - Dreamweaver

After thinking about this for months and looking at Sage/Demon pros & cons the hole thing is resumed this way:

Pure Wizards Best Choise: Sage
Pure Wizards are 100% Damage so...

Sage masteries add 5% more damage than demon masteries.
Sage = More Chi = More Dragon Strike, Mountain Sieze, Blade Tempest etc.
(Note this are only some reasons)

LA Wizards Best Choise: Demon
Demon Wizads are more a Crit & Damage Mixture so...

Demon masteries add 1% more crit rate (Sage adds no crit rate)
Demon LA Wizards oviously have more crit than AA Wizards pluss the extra crit that demon gives helps u max this Crit advantage.
(Note this are only some reasons)

Adroit - Lost City

XxArchmagexX - Dreamweaver wrote: »

After thinking about this for months and looking at Sage/Demon pros & cons the hole thing is resumed this way:

Pure Wizards Best Choise: Sage
Pure Wizards are 100% Damage so...

Sage masteries add 5% more damage than demon masteries.
Sage = More Chi = More Dragon Strike, Mountain Sieze, Blade Tempest etc.
(Note this are only some reasons)

LA Wizards Best Choise: Demon
Demon Wizads are more a Crit & Damage Mixture so...

Demon masteries add 1% more crit rate (Sage adds no crit rate)
Demon LA Wizards oviously have more crit than AA Wizards pluss the extra crit that demon gives helps u max this Crit advantage.
(Note this are only some reasons)

uhmmmm its really not that simple.. sry

Herne_Hunter - Sanctuary

Well it really depends on your playing style, whether you go LA / AA or Sage/ Demon

Its really clear that

sage = more chi

demon = more damage


If you look at it neutrally then see sage wizards would prefer doing uber damage so they use skills like BiDs, Ms , BT correct, it also helps you to use Distance shrink as much possible, and you wouldnt have a huge issue in putting up shields quickly. these area few extra additives i would like to add to you examples,

where as LA wizards who have comparatively less damage than a AA wizard would need the extra power demon provides along with it the criticals from elemental masteries.


though at the end of the day there are wizards who know and love to kite, these would definitely go for Sage, cause these are not the kind who would prefer to stand and take hits upon hits, and there are wizards who specially go LA cause they have probs in kiting or just simply love to stand and face meelee attacks, these would go LA

its really debatable topic, people with different playing style go for different skills.

Also note,

Skills like Glacial Snare and Divine pyro sage version got a water and fire debuf respectively, which helps a lot too.


this is my own opinion dont think everyone will agree to it though, and some of my own additions to your examples, just thought it might be a bit useful for other readers.

Astoru - Heavens Tear

Herne_Hunter - Sanctuary wrote: »

sage = more chi

demon = more damage

lolwut?

Good luck out-DDing a sage wizard with all of its masteries.

Herne_Hunter - Sanctuary

yeah some really do, but as i said its really on how you look at it or how you play, for me yeah demon skills tend to have more damage effect on them than sage ones


i mean the way i look at it is this

skills with reduced channeling gives you the chance to cast more skills which for me is counted as more damage, there ar certain skills which adds a huge amount of damage too. Thats what i meant...


Where as Sage skills like Ms and BT, they have a chance to be casted with one spark instead of 2, now you can also take it as a chi additive cause i get more chi to use other stuff

FireWizardEX - Dreamweaver

Herne_Hunter - Sanctuary wrote: »

demon = more damage

no way, sage masteries up ur dmg.
at dps maybe cuz of pyro -chan and demonic spark but when u face sutra+bids i rly think there is no doubt sage have higher dmg especially when the crit buff hits b:shocked

Dvalinn - Lost City

Neither path is good for a LA Wiz cause that means you'd have to go LA beyond 89.

Herne_Hunter - Sanctuary

meh i guess u guys failed to understand what i meant or i couldnt get the point right to you sorry for the inconvenience,

evilramen

umm, for all you 90- talking about sage damage > demon's, in one of the THUOSANDs of sage vs demon thread, it is proven that it is ONLY the case if you can refine 10 or higher on your weapon. so ya do your research plz >.>

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver

Aaaa, if only it was that simple as with archers where there is one better than the otherb:thanks

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Herne_Hunter - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well it really depends on your playing style, whether you go LA / AA or Sage/ Demon

Its really clear that

sage = more chi

demon = more damage

I stopped to argue what is better sage/demon because it depend on preferences but when I see this BS I cannot be quiet. I did it few months ago mathematics with comparing demon/sage damage with purgatory +10(which in these day is quite often). I don't want to search all forum just for that. But I can tell you, that sage has thanks +5% from masteries about ~900 more damage(if i remember correctly). It little less if we counting with 1% critical demon masteries, but is still more than demon. Hypothetically with +12 rank 8 is more than 2000 in damage. And also I didn't count with new nirvana weapon, because they wasn't in game. I forgot to tell, that just demon SS is little comparable with output damage to sage. And I will not argue anymore so Peace b:chuckle

Mage_Fizban - Dreamweaver

It really boils down to personal preference. There is not "right" choice. Both are pretty equal. In fact, I'd say demon is probably better than sage until 99, then they're more even.

Generally, demon is much better for 1v1 pvp. Sage is better for other stuff. . .like pve. and tw.

And you guys are seriously underestimating 3% crit. I think I'd rather have another 3% crit than 5% damage because frankly, even though math-wise 3% crit is only 3% more damage on average, you gotta remember crits are spike damage. When you're in pvp, crits kill. 5% more damage doesn't.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Mage_Fizban - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It really boils down to personal preference. There is not "right" choice. Both are pretty equal. In fact, I'd say demon is probably better than sage until 99, then they're more even.

Generally, demon is much better for 1v1 pvp. Sage is better for other stuff. . .like pve. and tw.

And you guys are seriously underestimating 3% crit. I think I'd rather have another 3% crit than 5% damage because frankly, even though math-wise 3% crit is only 3% more damage on average, you gotta remember crits are spike damage. When you're in pvp, crits kill. 5% more damage doesn't.

Question
Message:
> Dear GM,
>
> I have a question about the demon and sage effects of the masteries of the wizard class.
> Now as you know there are 3 masteries, one for each element. The sage description of the mastery is that it gives 25 % extra damage of that particular element instead of the 20 % extra damage you get from the level 10 mastery. This is very understandable.
>
> Now the demon mastery says that it gives 1 % critical hit. Now my question is, does it give 1 % for all magic attack (all elements) or only 1 % extra critical for that particular element? So if you have all three masteries, does that mean you have 3% extra critical to all magic attack, or 1% extra critical to all magic attack? (1% for each element).
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Celia.
Answer
Here is the same question asked by Erik:
"Greetings Erik,

The 1% Crit Bonus will only apply to spells of that particular element. In the case of the Demon ability "Fire Mastery," only fire spells will receive this 1% Crit bonus! Thus, having 1 point of each "Mastery" ability will NOT give you a bonus of 3% Crit.

Hope this clears things up."

Personally I think nobody know the truth. I would send mail directly to the china.

Softie - Harshlands

the above post has been questioned b4 since the GM wasnt completly sure

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

You're right, here's the question:

Why should 1% crit in one mastery carry over to spell of a different type? That makes no sense, sheesh use some common sense.

Anyway why are there even still Demon vs Sage argument, let people choose based on the way they play, not the opinions of people that THINK they know everything there is to know about each side because no matter which side you choose your opinion is bias. You're going to tell someone to chose Demon/Sage because it's better than the other side for xxx reason and let's you do yyy better. It's pointless, just stop the damn Demon Vs Sage arguments already!

(My personal choice for a Wizard is Sage)

Adroit - Lost City

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

If I understand your point of view, properly, you have a buff which adds water damage to your normal attacks and yet you claim that having water mastery boost your critical chance for spells you actually use makes no sense and yet you have no other evidence to support your point of view?

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

There is no proof from what I have seen, however look at the Sage masteries. Each elemental mastery gets an extra 25% damage respectively, which is an extra 5% damage for each skill. They don't stack on each other.

Demon masteries boost each element's crit rate by 1%, meaning every skill of that type gets an extra 1% chance to crit. They don't stack to give you 3% crit for all of the elements...

Well.. you know.. unless Sage masteries stack with each other and gives them an extra 15% boost in damage but... if that were the case there would be no Demon vs Sage argument for Wizards, you'd all be Sage because no matter what adds the Demon skills get Sage would out DD them by an insane amount.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is no proof from what I have seen, however look at the Sage masteries. Each elemental mastery gets an extra 25% damage respectively, which is an extra 5% damage for each skill. They don't stack on each other.

Demon masteries boost each element's crit rate by 1%, meaning every skill of that type gets an extra 1% chance to crit. They don't stack to give you 3% crit for all of the elements...

Well.. you know.. unless Sage masteries stack with each other and gives them an extra 15% boost in damage but... if that were the case there would be no Demon vs Sage argument for Wizards, you'd all be Sage because no matter what adds the Demon skills get Sage would out DD them by an insane amount.

You are right. Sage gives just 5% not 15%.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is no proof from what I have seen, however look at the Sage masteries. Each elemental mastery gets an extra 25% damage respectively, which is an extra 5% damage for each skill. They don't stack on each other.

Demon masteries boost each element's crit rate by 1%, meaning every skill of that type gets an extra 1% chance to crit. They don't stack to give you 3% crit for all of the elements...

Well.. you know.. unless Sage masteries stack with each other and gives them an extra 15% boost in damage but... if that were the case there would be no Demon vs Sage argument for Wizards, you'd all be Sage because no matter what adds the Demon skills get Sage would out DD them by an insane amount.

dmg output and critical rate.3% critical not huge and 5% amplify is similiar than 50genie dex (extremity poison, each 10dex=1%dmg).

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Um.. If you're trying to say "Demon does give a crit +3%, and even though Sage has a 5% damage boost a Demon Wizard can use the genie skill Extreme Poison to up their damage to that of a Sage Wizard."

I'm talking about damage without genie skills or any other bonuses. This is about what the Demon masteries do, as in do they give 3% crit to all elements or 1% to each element respectively.

If I'm wrong and that's not what you're trying to say, forgive me... your post looks like a bunch of words hastily bunched together to make a barely readable sentence. One that I barely understand.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Um.. If you're trying to say "Demon does give a crit +3%, and even though Sage has a 5% damage boost a Demon Wizard can use the genie skill Extreme Poison to up their damage to that of a Sage Wizard."

what i wanted say 3% critical similiar good than 5% dmg boost (damage boost or amplify, same).

both can use extremity poison ofc but example +20% amplify and 3% crit and 25% dmg boost, point was on boosted dmg not on extremity poison, because extremity poison is genie buff with low duration but 5%boost is permanent same like 3%crit.

yes that 3% but how much cost ahve to get that 3%? u need both 3 mastery book,sage mastery 5% boost nice too if u compare with genie skill than its similiar than permanent 5% extremity poison to everytarget what u hit :P

Mage_Fizban - Dreamweaver

Zan go troll cleric forums. Or get 89 on your main before you troll other classes cultivation threads.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Mage_Fizban - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Zan go troll cleric forums. Or get 89 on your main before you troll other classes cultivation threads.

So even though I have a respectable amount of information on the subject of Wizards at end game my opinion isn't valid unless I'm 89+? Or just because my main isn't actually a Wizard?

That hurts Fizzyb:sad

EDIT: I'm 89 now Fiz, so shut it. -.-

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So even though I have a respectable amount of information on the subject of Wizards at end game my opinion isn't valid unless I'm 89+? Or just because my main isn't actually a Wizard?

That hurts Fizzyb:sad

I respect your opinion as everyone's else.
And don't worry. Today I will make email directly to PW china and I will send them this question. So maybe we will know correct answer soon.b:victory

Softie - Harshlands

do people really go sage just for the sage BIDS?

dnt get me wrong best skill in game but im not going 2 go sage for one skill

plus if u say chi i can easily fix that with genie skill and pots (wife has alot)

seems 2 me demon is better at everthing but ULTs

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Sure you can use pots and genie skills for chi gain, but in doing so you won't be able to use more useful pots or genie skills. Which is more valuable in a fight, a skill/pot that gives chi or a skill/pot that reduces damage taken?

I'd rather go Sage and have a lot of chi anyway so I can use my genie for something more useful and still have the option to pop a reduce damage apoth, instead of waiting for the cooldown from a chi boosting apoth.

Kristoph - Lost City

Softie - Harshlands wrote: »

do people really go sage just for the sage BIDS?

dnt get me wrong best skill in game but im not going 2 go sage for one skill

plus if u say chi i can easily fix that with genie skill and pots (wife has alot)

seems 2 me demon is better at everthing but ULTs

Then go demon, nobody cares. And yes, chi is a good reason. I don't want to waste genie energy on chi in the middle of a damn fight and if I use pvp pots it's anti stun... I don't want to waste anything on chi pots unless it's in tw, where sage wizards are better because of the ults.


The amount of chi you save from BT, seize and distance shrink along with the chi gain from pyro and ML's tech adds up FAST in the middle of a fight. I blink at least 3-4 times per minute, that's an easy 30-40 chi saved over a demon. One pyro proc = another 30 chi, ML's tech = another 50 chi.


The only thing I miss from Demon is extra pdef from Stone Barrier and target control from Pitfall/Hailstorm, which are too unlikely to proc for a sage to really bother with. The extra damage on sandstorm? Would be nice, but with earth mastery the difference isn't big and honestly the damage wouldn't give me a large benefit over the sage version. Faster channeling? I'm not a fan of Wellspring and Snare/DPyro are skills I rarely use anyway.


Both sage and demon are good, there's no real point in arguing which is better 'cause it's situational, depends on playing style and personal preference, and 9/10 people are probably going to be biased and say their choice is the best anyway.

Mage_Fizban - Dreamweaver

Like Kristoph said, going demon vs sage is based on playing style. BOTH paths of wizard cultivation are very good. The only reason why there's a never-ending argument about this is BECAUSE of that fact.

Don't you guys realize that if one was actually better than the other, there wouldn't be so many of these darn threads.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Mage_Fizban - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Like Kristoph said, going demon vs sage is based on playing style. BOTH paths of wizard cultivation are very good. The only reason why there's a never-ending argument about this is BECAUSE of that fact.

Don't you guys realize that if one was actually better than the other, there wouldn't be so many of these darn threads.

there is only 15 sage wizards on Dreamweaver b:avoid

SurferGirl - Dreamweaver

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

there is only 15 sage wizards on Dreamweaver b:avoid

we are rare creatures that slowly involve and eventually will take over DW b:dirtyb:dirtyb:dirty

sage wiz for eva

Softie - Harshlands

can someone sticky jus one of these sage vs. demon threads we have 2 many b:surrender