Sage Archer or Demon Archer?

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  • _Pain__ - Sanctuary
    _Pain__ - Sanctuary Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Im going demon since I want to focus more on attack and Damage Dealing ill put savants and primevals on my armour for extra hp lolb:pleased
  • Admante - Dreamweaver
    Admante - Dreamweaver Posts: 323 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    _Pain__ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Im going demon since I want to focus more on attack and Damage Dealing ill put savants and primevals on my armour for extra hp lolb:pleased

    Money is always the issue.
  • Ussichu - Sanctuary
    Ussichu - Sanctuary Posts: 429 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    hahaha double digits and low triple digits on clerics under certain buffs sound about right. we're talking wings, shells, and guardian light. clerics don't have barrier or foxform but their temporary buffs can make them very durable under fire.

    Oooh the utter satisfaction of a purge proc wiping off the cleric's plume shell. And with demon attack speed, increases the unlikely minuscule chance of it happeningb:chuckle
    Navarre was your everyday veno, until she learned her true form. Now she's fox walloping and purging over and over again.. all for a deep stinging, head hunting, wind pushing Assassin. Will there be inner harmony and myriad rainbows? But of course! Yuri&Lemon Find it on Fanfiction XD "Discovering Sanctuary" Chapter 2 is up ^_^
  • Mercinary - Heavens Tear
    Mercinary - Heavens Tear Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ussichu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Oooh the utter satisfaction of a purge proc wiping off the cleric's plume shell. And with demon attack speed, increases the unlikely minuscule chance of it happeningb:chuckle

    now you're asking for a near impossible chance unless you have ultimate BS luck on your side. (assumed 5%) would take about 20 attacks. I'd rather not rely on it as a pro to attack speed.

    But ofcourse you are right b:laugh that would be awesome!
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    If you ever get to the end-game you'll realize that the amount of time you spend channelling and casting the only 3 metal skills you have - you would have dealt much more damage with critical hits.

    hmm lets see I hit about 1.5k-2k on HA wearers right now crit assuming I can do 2 attack within 1 skill cast which on the HA would be about 500. Assuming both are crit that would be 2k total while if I just crit on that 1 skill I can reach up to 4k. I believe thats a big owwie. You're assuming here that all demon attacks will crit, and none of sage attacks will crit.

    If your 3 meters away your outside of their range - thus they cannot hit. I actually enjoy sage archers who think their 2 meter range matters. All a demon archer needs to do is move back while their channelling their aim-low or Stunning arrow - it will cause the skill to be interrupted.

    Really now? As said in an earlier post you'd have to run pretty dam far to interupt that skill, otherwise 2 meters is enough for you to get that 1/4 a sec before they cast stun and you just stick the other archer there with aim low and you attack right outside of their range.

    I think you are dillusional my friend. Let me know what you think when you reach 97, 98, 99, or 100.
    You'll find out your damage on other classess significantly drops as they all get their sub-end game gears.
    If it isn't a shock to you already - your damage will range from the 100-800's or 900's if you dont have the money to refine your weapon.
    You will never see 4 digits unless its a critical - even on arcane classes. Wizards have stone barrier, and clerics have enough buffs and magic shell to keep your damage in the double or triple digits.

    On arcanes I'll admit my damage isnt what it used to be but I have never gone lower than 200(on clerics shield). Even a LA wiz with earth shield on still took a nice beating.
    Archers dont deal anymore than any other physical class. You can say increasing damage per hit is better - but the increase doesn't come from the Sage passive skill. 15% more damage than a Demon isn't much.


    Your metal skills have a long cooldown. You might be able to tick a charm with them - but you certainly arent going to kill someone with them end-game.

    Once again this assumes no crit >.<

    Didn't want to do the multi-quote thing so my reply in red (yes I know i copied XD)
  • Quizenbort - Dreamweaver
    Quizenbort - Dreamweaver Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Got to love that these threads still happen. Read the skills for each and make your own choice. All you will get here is Bias responces from people who already picked and want to justify it.
  • Chezedude - Dreamweaver
    Chezedude - Dreamweaver Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    go demon because the spark is red and cool looking :O
    youtube.com/chezedude
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Quizenbort - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Got to love that these threads still happen. Read the skills for each and make your own choice. All you will get here is Bias responces from people who already picked and want to justify it.

    Then why are heaven archers saying demon is better b:cry
  • TigerLily - Lost City
    TigerLily - Lost City Posts: 1,209 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Demon and sage archers are better at different things.

    Demon is better:
    Any form of pvp
    DDing
    Rebirth

    Sage is better if you like to solo stuff in pve and dont have access to a cleric account. Thats about it.

    Most 90+ players have their own cleric so sage archer is pretty much the most pointless creature developers could ever come up with.

    EDIT in search of proof: Find me 1 sage archer 100+ that didnt pay 6000 USD for rank 8, that still plays, is active in pvp and thinks sage archers are amazing. I dont know anyone tbh.
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    btw lily is a heaven archer :3
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Mercinary - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    now you're asking for a near impossible chance unless you have ultimate BS luck on your side. (assumed 5%) would take about 20 attacks. I'd rather not rely on it as a pro to attack speed.

    But ofcourse you are right b:laugh that would be awesome!



    Didn't want to do the multi-quote thing so my reply in red (yes I know i copied XD)


    Of course you can critical as sage. But you fail to realize the one fundamental fact.


    More Crit + More attacks = More chances to crit = More damage




    If you didn't get that, then I dont know why you picked an archer in the first place.



    And its not hard to move far quickly. Exspecially with skills like Holy Path. But most of the time you dont even need holy path to move out of a sage archers reach. You seem to think 2 meters is a whole lot.



    Next time your in a HH party with a sage/demon combination, see how far 2 meters is. In this game 2 meters is almost 2 steps.







    Cyanea - Lost City wrote: »
    Or, with 22% base you get 32%

    b:chuckle





    You have assumed a particular archer, here, and I think you have assumed a demon archer.



    I do not think you are speaking from experience here, because I can see several flaws in your description.

    One issue would be that interrupted skills do not activate, do not need to cool down and do not cost sparks.

    Another issue would be that you have to move a good distance (and in the right direction) to interrupt a skill. I think you need to move something like 10-15m further than max range to pull off an interrupt (though I do not know precisely).

    You have a total of 1.5 seconds to interrupt stunning arrow and 1 second to interrupt aim low. You probably need a tenth of a second to react, with typical ping that becomes somethig like a quarter of a second and you if you were doing anything else you probably will not be able to interrupt it in time to move that far. You would be better off using condor wings or sparking. If they use stunning arrow on you and the battle has already started and their gear was not super wonderful you might be able to kill them before they finish channeling.




    If you knew how to fight from max range this would not be such an issue for you.



    Sages do not get "15% more damage than a demon", they get +15% of their weapon damage added to their attack from bow mastery, and they get +10% of their weapon damage added to their attack from blazing arrow. You are right though that that will not be very much.

    However, a sage (with all sage skills and with -3% channeling gear) with a 10k average physical attack can land 14k-ish PvP metal damage on a typical barbarian (with 5k metal defense) in 10 seconds. That is without factoring in critical hits nor genies nor spark, but does assume the archer does not get stunned nor interrupted.

    And if that barbarian uses invoke, all of our archer's relevant skills have will have cooled off before invoke ends, and invoke would probably give our sage time to throw in some chi gaining skills (because our sage burned some chi to reduce our barbarian's metal defense to 1.5k and other magic defenses to 4k), and a couple vicious arrows for insult purposes, and triple spark.


    Unfortunately it seems your talking from a major lack of inexperience.


    Interrupted skills when moving back are interrupted, but they still count as casted.



    Secondly its +10% on your critical rate. Not of your critical rate.




    Please get to the end-game levels before giving bad advice. At least the sage archers who are sage archers can argue credibly. Worst off is your from lost city where the ability to side step attacks should be second nature.



    If a sage archer isn't saying he can deal more damage because he can gain Chi faster for triple sparks, or because he can afford a +12 rank 8 bow, then they really have no idea why they chose their class except for the cool looking fairy.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ya when i get sealed trying to open wings too late, i remember that i don't get the antistun and movement buff but i still use a spark.
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    Qui: b:dirty
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ya when i get sealed trying to open wings too late, i remember that i don't get the antistun and movement buff but i still use a spark.

    lol me wuv to seal/sleep archers all the time when me see the *raise bow in air wings appearing animation*
    b:chuckle
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  • iceman000
    iceman000 Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ummm im lvl 88 atm and was going to go sage because of the hp reduce skill and the range. i would love to hit ppl from 6 blocks away lol instead of 4 and also i would love the chi since most of the time i lose in pvp cause i have no chi at all cant even put up shield lol. another reason is that sage books cost less and i want to get like all skills to 11 someday and in my sever sage books much cheaper than demon. plus im a broke **** archer so less money the better.

    and one big big big big big reason i want to go sage is because everybody and there mommy going demon i want to be different.
    every1 told me to go demon well u guys can kick rocks lol sage ftwb:laugh
  • Chezedude - Dreamweaver
    Chezedude - Dreamweaver Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »
    EDIT in search of proof: Find me 1 sage archer 100+ that didnt pay 6000 USD for rank 8, that still plays, is active in pvp and thinks sage archers are amazing. I dont know anyone tbh.

    uhm, I think I fit that description.

    I mean seriously can you even find anyone who paid 6k to get rank8? because that person must have used some very fail method to get rep.
    youtube.com/chezedude
  • TigerLily - Lost City
    TigerLily - Lost City Posts: 1,209 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Chezedude - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    uhm, I think I fit that description.

    I mean seriously can you even find anyone who paid 6k to get rank8? because that person must have used some very fail method to get rep.


    How do you fit in that description when you have rank8? If you paid 4k or 6k i have no clue how many thousands it costs and that was not the main point. Any archer with rank 8 will do well, you dont even have to pick cultivation at lvl 89, you can stay fairy less and have lvl 10 skills and still **** people since you have a grade 14 weapon with 4 % crit + 4 crit from badge and rank 8 interval gear.

    I wanna find a high lvl sage archer w/o rank8 that is pleased with his choice of cultivation.

    I dont know anyone <.<

    All high lvl sage archers either cash shopped for rank8 to make up for the lack of crit and attack speed... or they quit. Or they never pvped in the first place.
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »
    How do you fit in that description when you have rank8? If you paid 4k or 6k i have no clue how many thousands it costs and that was not the main point. Any archer with rank 8 will do well, you dont even have to pick cultivation at lvl 89, you can stay fairy less and have lvl 10 skills and still **** people since you have a grade 14 weapon with 4 % crit + 4 crit from badge and rank 8 interval gear.

    I wanna find a high lvl sage archer w/o rank8 that is pleased with his choice of cultivation.

    I dont know anyone <.<

    All high lvl sage archers either cash shopped for rank8 to make up for the lack of crit and attack speed... or they quit. Or they never pvped in the first place.

    i agree, the good weapon and eq the most important in high lv , more than player experience or path skills.

    example that guy in pw my with gr16 wepon and 14k unbuffed hp/55att lv dont must annoying if a another archer attack him in 1vs1 until opponent dont ahve similiar good and refined eq.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »
    All high lvl sage archers either cash shopped for rank8 to make up for the lack of crit and attack speed... or they quit. Or they never pvped in the first place.

    b:bye http://pwi.perfectworld.com/rank/dreamweaver_pvp b:victory

    Not saying I'm good, but I do prefer sage culti.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Pvp rankings on a pve server.

    Who cares how many people you killed? Last I checked at least 25% of the people on lost city pvp rankings blow.

    yur killz aint directly proportional to yur skillz
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    Pvp rankings on a pve server.

    Who cares how many people you killed? Last I checked at least 25% of the people on lost city pvp rankings blow.

    yur killz aint directly proportional to yur skillz
    I've heard this argument before; while it has some merit the populations (and perhaps amount of cash flow per person) will vary per server type, but they will vary as a whole across the board. The fact remains, on a PvE server if you're white named, you're white named usually for good reason. If you're white named on a PvE server, you're likely charmed. If you're out of safe zone, you're likely to be buffed, in a squad and have attack charms and/or apoc.

    I was responding to TigerLily as I met her criteria; I assume he/she would have said, "Oh, and your celestial path now only counts if you're on a PvP server", or did I miss something? b:chuckle
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Varscona - Sanctuary
    Varscona - Sanctuary Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    i don't know about you but a lot on my server on those rankings never went white named lol. TW kills.

    also, (mostly dead) pk on sanct involves mostly heavies, so some of the few archers that pk are sage and the sage path has advantages against them; that's also why we had Wizzeled's non-8jun sage with 5k mdef "endgame cash shop archer", remember that? why hasn't he been 1shot by a mage? cuz there are like non

    PvP servers have all classes going white, they are exposed to more in PvP than my server's pkers are ever going to experience cuz the number of non-heavies that i see go white can probably be counted on the fingers of my hands. sorry if i'm generalizing my server's PvP situation to yours. if you guys actually have healthy PvP then i stand corrected.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Varscona - Sanctuary wrote: »
    PvP servers have all classes going white, they are exposed to more in PvP than my server's pkers are ever going to experience cuz the number of non-heavies that i see go white can probably be counted on the fingers of my hands. sorry if i'm generalizing my server's PvP situation to yours. if you guys actually have healthy PvP then i stand corrected.

    Dreamweaver.... depends on the day; To be honest, most of my kills are TW related, however a large number of 85+ will be white named or various shades of red.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    about fail sage...

    if u failed allways at 9x without demon skill? then its not something wrong there if u cant kill without lv11 skill?

    then wh more failed the sage skilled archers? maybe because somebody cant play but then he was sucks before 89 too, failed archer allways failed indifferent ur path, only $ and a bit experience need in ur class b:surrender
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »
    about fail sage...

    if u failed allways at 9x without demon skill? then its not something wrong there if u cant kill without lv11 skill?

    then wh more failed the sage skilled archers? maybe because somebody cant play but then he was sucks before 89 too, failed archer allways failed indifferent ur path, only $ and a bit experience need in ur class b:surrender

    it did make a difference for me, (probably because of my cheap weapon)

    at lvl 88, i stepped into TW and realized that i couldn't power through a 10x mage's charm. i just kept hitting and hitting and the charm just ticks until the mage noticed me and 2 shot me.

    at lvl 90 i stepped into TW and the same mage dies to quickshot procing and a chain of crits. so i would say it makes a lot of difference. although sometimes quickshot doesn't proc or i doesn't get a chain of crits and people doesn't die (lol), at least there exists a chance. now you could say i need a better weapon or i just suck that bad, but me with my +5 windcatcher killed robes in full event gear cuz quickshot proc'd i can at least say the path made me less fail hahaha.

    after all, why get these skills if they don't make a difference?
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  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    after all, why get these skills if they don't make a difference?

    make difference but not that huge,u dont will be uber cause u got lv11 skill not lv10, u can fail with pro skills too.

    like u said if quick shot not activated then u can suck, same if i dont crit with nuke skill after hiero ticked i suck too XD

    in tw mostly i use aoe skills (sharp-bigger robe group,enemy cata,barrage-cata team/crystal,t.blast bm/barb teams) and stun+aim lowand i am aimed agaist clerics and bm's (because cleric ress the another cleric and another buff the enemy etc and i must clear them what work in general with crits+mattack skills if i have spark and about bm's, everybody know how they **** up the defensive with their suicide rush aoe stuns)

    overall i love the tw and i choosed sage and i dont see the much disadvatage.
  • Chaotiic - Lost City
    Chaotiic - Lost City Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I dont really think the sages here are getting it. Its not about whether u can be good sage or demon we are all archers and we can all be good in pvp. Its the fact that in (my server at least) the other classes once they reach 9x and 10x are superior to us. To overcome this we have to play smart and use all the tricks we have be it kiting or investing tonnes of money into our chars.

    What we are trying to say is that demon path is another factor to even the odds and make us better than the other classes. It has much more useful skills which make it easier to kill. Sure u can still be amazing at pvp as a sage but u could be better as a demon.
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  • Selfish - Harshlands
    Selfish - Harshlands Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »
    I dont really think the sages here are getting it. Its not about whether u can be good sage or demon we are all archers and we can all be good in pvp. Its the fact that in (my server at least) the other classes once they reach 9x and 10x are superior to us. To overcome this we have to play smart and use all the tricks we have be it kiting or investing tonnes of money into our chars.

    What we are trying to say is that demon path is another factor to even the odds and make us better than the other classes. It has much more useful skills which make it easier to kill. Sure u can still be amazing at pvp as a sage but u would be better as a demon.

    thats all.
  • Smobo - Heavens Tear
    Smobo - Heavens Tear Posts: 386 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    There are 3 kinds of 89+ archers:

    -Archers who seen it more mathimatically efficient to be a demon over a sage.
    -Archers who where brainwashed by Devoted into being a demon.
    -Archers who didn't believe that Demon is infact better, and are sage.

    SHUN THE NON BELIEVERS!!!!! SHUUUUUUUUN!!!!!!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo
  • Selfish - Harshlands
    Selfish - Harshlands Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    There are 3 kinds of 89+ archers:

    -Archers who seen it more mathimatically efficient to be a demon over a sage.
    -Archers who where brainwashed by Devoted into being a demon.
    -Archers who didn't believe that Demon is infact better, and are sage.

    SHUN THE NON BELIEVERS!!!!! SHUUUUUUUUN!!!!!!

    devoted has some points..
  • Smobo - Heavens Tear
    Smobo - Heavens Tear Posts: 386 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Selfish - Harshlands wrote: »
    devoted has some points..
    Devoted does have a lot of good points, and is a good sport about being poked fun at a little.
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    Archer: devoted is a ****** and brainwashes everyone to go demon. lol math everywhere.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Chezedude - Dreamweaver
    Chezedude - Dreamweaver Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »
    How do you fit in that description when you have rank8? If you paid 4k or 6k i have no clue how many thousands it costs and that was not the main point. Any archer with rank 8 will do well, you dont even have to pick cultivation at lvl 89, you can stay fairy less and have lvl 10 skills and still **** people since you have a grade 14 weapon with 4 % crit + 4 crit from badge and rank 8 interval gear.

    I wanna find a high lvl sage archer w/o rank8 that is pleased with his choice of cultivation.

    I dont know anyone <.<

    All high lvl sage archers either cash shopped for rank8 to make up for the lack of crit and attack speed... or they quit. Or they never pvped in the first place.

    Because I didn't pay 6k to get rank8 and that's specifically what was said.
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