Sage Archer or Demon Archer?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2010

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Demon will be better IF you get all your skills.

Demon skills to look for:

Quickshots
Stuning arrow
Aim Low
Sharptooth
Metal atacks
Passive skills
Blazing arrow
Take aim
Barrage
Wings of protection
Wingspan
winged pledge

^ Any other skill is not required to get to 11.

I'd remove demon aim low and demon wing pledge from that list.

Illyana - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd remove demon aim low and demon wing pledge from that list.

I'd remove even more, but hey, that's just me b:laugh

Chezedude - Dreamweaver · January 2010

I Iz Fail Cashshop Sage Archer. Kthxbai

KedgeSniper - Lost City · January 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd remove demon aim low and demon wing pledge from that list.

b:surrender i hate Wizards or Venos on my face.. sum clerics sleep ya n get close too. It is nice to do extra damage when they close.. its like your last option to kill or die. Also helps killin nyxes, n sum bms wit magic narrow.

Demon Aim Low O______O
I LUV AIM LOW. specially against wizards. first skill i spam.. wishing on the 25% stun n so they dont shrink away. And also gives 1 sec more of imbolize <.<.. how can ya hate that.
Also imbolize n stun effect work separately. So you could imbolize but not stun.. stun but not imbolize or imbolize n stun. <- last one i luv.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2010

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

b:surrender i hate Wizards or Venos on my face.. sum clerics sleep ya n get close too. It is nice to do extra damage when they close.. its like your last option to kill or die. Also helps killin nyxes, n sum bms wit magic narrow.

Demon Aim Low O______O
I LUV AIM LOW. specially against wizards. first skill i spam.. wishing on the 25% stun n so they dont shrink away. And also gives 1 sec more of imbolize <.<.. how can ya hate that.
Also imbolize n stun effect work separately. So you could imbolize but not stun.. stun but not imbolize or imbolize n stun. <- last one i luv.

Does the immobilize last longer? I haven't noticed that. The description says 8 seconds.

Demon wing pledge has a little added damage and has a chance to slow. Whats the point of slowing someone in mellee range?

KedgeSniper - Lost City · January 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Does the immobilize last longer? I haven't noticed that. The description says 8 seconds.

Demon wing pledge has a little added damage and has a chance to slow. Whats the point of slowing someone in mellee range?

yea winged pledge add is kinda lame lol
Unless ya use it on a cleric that tries to run away from ya.. but mostly cleric will die unless they have the shield...

But it adds decent amount of damage.. n as we know.. archers do need extra damage.

Winged pledge Lv10
opponent, inflicting base physical damage plus 2098.3.

Winged Pledge lv11
physical damage with additional 3148.0 physical damage and giving a chance to reduce enemy speed.

Um I swear i member.. when i learn it.. it gave me 1 more sec..

]Aim low lv10
3469.5 and has a 90%
chance to stun the target for 8.0 seconds

Aim low lv11 demon
plus 5403.0 and has a 90% chance to stun the target for 8.0 seconds

Demon version always gives a 25% chance to stun the enemy for 3 seconds.

Well It does add 2K damage extra... which is obviously worth. And its one of the most useful skills endgame.

Toad - Lost City · January 2010

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

BTW, one archer in my guild has 10k HP unbuffed. With +11 lunar fists he's soloing TT 2-x and 3-x.
A run for Belial takes about 200k from his charm. He's a sage archer. He's building chi so fast that basically he can spark (25% less dmg 700% weapon dmg - lol, lunar fists+11 then another 700% on top and 40% crit rate at 5hits/sec)well before the previous spark effect is off. I wanna see a demon archer do that.

I think your missing the big picture... What kind of moron adds 150 str to an archer just so he can equip lunar fists. Although some games give archers the ability to equip daggers and a dagger skill tree to make pvping as an archer more fun, which would be kinda cool.

KedgeSniper - Lost City · January 2010

Toad - Lost City wrote: »

I think your missing the big picture... What kind of moron adds 150 str to an archer just so he can equip lunar fists. Although some games give archers the ability to equip daggers and a dagger skill tree to make pvping as an archer more fun, which would be kinda cool.

lol i could name a couple in our server..

But yea.. i have 91 base str.. i believe 103 wit adds for 99 armor.

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear · January 2010

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

LOL Devoted must be sleeping.

Demon is you want usefull skills for pvp.

Sage if you play on pve server and just wanna do instances + be somewhat usefull in TW. Or if you can afford rank8 to cover up the lack of crit and attack speed.

Sage is pretty gimped in pvp compared to demon, and im saying this being sage myself since i kinda picked the wrong culti 1 year ago. Demon archer has like 12-14% more crit and 30% more attack speed from skills. Sage just have more chi and slightly higher base dmg - which isn't even noticeable. Its kinda how sage barbs are gimped in pk compared to hell barbs, only better for pulling cata really. Devs kinda failed with making the 2 cultivation options equally good with certain classes.

I went Sage. I dont' care to share it. Sure Demon for more damage. Who wants to do more damage? At this level you already have to do pretty much everything except grind, with a squad. I for one, really don't want to do so much damage so fast that the barb has no chance to keep aggro from me.

This recently happened as I was in FB 79 and I did this crit combo on Hooli.

70k+crit/30k+crit/20k+crit/40k+crit/82k crit

Yes, did I mention I went sage? Demons do more damage? I don't know? I don't know any demon archers. I do however know of 3 other sage. 1 who is level 100 and still doesn't regret his choice.

Demon (with all classes) tends to be more PvP oriented. Since I am a PvE carebear sage is suiting me just fine.

DrkLordZ - Sanctuary wrote: »

go demon if you wanna be an awesome DD. go sage if you wanna be a fail tank.

How about go Sage if you wanna be awesome dd, because that is what archers are regardless of sage/demon issue.

And go Sage if you want to be a decent tank. I'd hardly call it fail unless they do in fact have all npc gears and no shards.

There are good points to each choice. I simply looked at what skills I use the most, and which ones were better per choice. The skills I used most were better sage.

Even the passive skills for bow mastery is better sage. I'd choose a constant and consistent 90% increase to attack over a 1% critical hit increase any day.

When it comes down to it, you need to choose what is right for you. Not what some person who thinks they are pro on the forums tells you.

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd remove demon aim low and demon wing pledge from that list.

You would, but that doesn't mean anyone else should.

I rather enjoy wingspan and wing pledge. When stuff gets close and its a mob that can't be knocked back I have a way of doing efficient damage.

I used aim low a LOT between levels 40-70. After that I rarely use it, but I do use it.

Other than be negative and just be critical, how about come up with a good point and reason why you don't think it would be beneficial? The reason the O.P asked the question was for information. Not opinions that this or that is the wrong choice but WHY you feel it is the wrong choice.

I'm not just picking on you either, several others have been rude, hateful and condescending in this thread to those who simply just don't agree with them.

FYI, Sage/Demon doesn't matter as much as a person being happy with what they chose. Some peoples play style is different and dealing the most damage so you can brag about having a 100k crit isn't their goal.

KedgeSniper - Lost City · January 2010

TigerLily Sage - Lost City PVP <=

Demon is you want usefull skills for pvp.

Sage if you play on PVE server and just wanna do instances

OneHottShot Sage - Heavens Tear PvE <=

Demon (with all classes) tends to be more PvP oriented. Since I am a PvE carebear sage is suiting me just fine.

If i recall.. This post was meant for PVP biased.

Then if ya do warsong BH.. N ya bug the boss.. You will know that people prefer an archer DEMON To kill it. Just cus we have triple spark n can spam quickshots...
So Even in PVE demon archer.. is far way better DD.. Unless Red bubble is up.

Other than that Demon archer will DD faster spaming Quickshots n triple spark

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear · January 2010

niiba wrote: »

So, I kinda want to know which path is better for an archer...and also, which skills are basically useless to get, depending of the path you choose?

Please look, in this post which is the OP, I don't see them asking PvP/PvE specific. This is why I even posted at all. Has it said PvP I'd have not even posted as I have no knowledge of it whatsoever. If they made another post asking specifically about PvP I missed it.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

TigerLily Sage - Lost City PVP <=

Demon is you want usefull skills for pvp.

Sage if you play on PVE server and just wanna do instances

OneHottShot Sage - Heavens Tear PvE <=

Demon (with all classes) tends to be more PvP oriented. Since I am a PvE carebear sage is suiting me just fine.

If i recall.. This post was meant for PVP biased.

Then if ya do warsong BH.. N ya bug the boss.. You will know that people prefer an archer DEMON To kill it. Just cus we have triple spark n can spam quickshots...
So Even in PVE demon archer.. is far way better DD.. Unless Red bubble is up.

Other than that Demon archer will DD faster spaming Quickshots n triple spark

When it comes down to it, I don't care what anyone says on my own personal character. I rolled an archer, enjoy it more than anything PWI has to offer. I rolled a SAGE archer and still enjoy it more than anything PWI has to offer. I am content with my choice, and so far the only person in game who has called me fail was a DEMON archer who has never even squaded with me. Just b/c I went sage they said I was fail.

Fail means you fail at your character. The word is thrown around as a means of something people disagree with or don't like. The correct definition of fail is not this.

I am quite good at archer, I enjoy it and that is all that matters.

Sorry for the short rant wasn't really directed at you.

I like how you outlined she was pvp, and I am pve. I really think that is one reason I've only seen 1 demon archer on my server out of the 8 I know above lvl 90. (I haven't asked the rest)

I am in no way a pro on the subject, I don't pretend to be. I only know my experience and what I enjoy.

Quilue - Sanctuary · January 2010

on HT i know Teapot is demon...you should ask Teapot (ElenaCostel) about her demon experience. b:chuckle

and it's not 90% increase to weapon attack over 1% increase to crit, that's misleading, and implies demon archers lose their weapon attack from bow mastery and merely gain 1% crit.

badazmofo · January 2010

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

b:surrender i hate Wizards or Venos on my face.. sum clerics sleep ya n get close too. It is nice to do extra damage when they close.. its like your last option to kill or die. Also helps killin nyxes, n sum bms wit magic narrow

im a pure dex pvp archer and i hate when other classes get close also but thats why i have a full dex geni with lvl 9 (only till i lvl to 76 then it will be 10)thunderstorm, hit someone with that at point blank after useing thundershock and they will regret ever closeing that distance

Shadowvzs - Lost City · January 2010

badazmofo wrote: »

im a pure dex pvp archer and i hate when other classes get close also but thats why i have a full dex geni with lvl 9 (only till i lvl to 76 then it will be 10)thunderstorm, hit someone with that at point blank after useing thundershock and they will regret ever closeing that distance

later its do pretty low dmg to any class(if target not hardly debuffed), when i used pdef neck/belt without anybuff,my bm friend made 1,3k crit on me. Every class get more mdef than archer and sin with pdef neck&belt bcause heavy use refined mdef stuffs or mdef shard too

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2010

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You would, but that doesn't mean anyone else should.

I rather enjoy wingspan and wing pledge. When stuff gets close and its a mob that can't be knocked back I have a way of doing efficient damage.

I used aim low a LOT between levels 40-70. After that I rarely use it, but I do use it.

I promise you you did not use demon aim low in levels 40-70. Demon wingspan is awesome since it gives a free shield which is great for aoe grinding. Aim low and wing pledge arent all that better in there demon variants. Thats why its not important to get them.

Lusca - Sanctuary · January 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

and it's not 90% increase to weapon attack over 1% increase to crit, that's misleading, and implies demon archers lose their weapon attack from bow mastery and merely gain 1% crit.

yeah sage only has +15% more weapon damage vs demons +1% crit

KedgeSniper - Lost City · January 2010

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I am in no way a pro on the subject, I don't pretend to be. I only know my experience and what I enjoy.

b:shutup U change yar mind quick.

Sage has its advantage.. all options for all classes have their up n downs.

Sage stun is gud.. gotta admit the extra 1 sec is kinda nice but hell stun cri rate is superior.

Overall Demon skills are just more pvp biased like everyone tell. Been sage doesnt mean ya fail. Most people suggest to be sage if ya +12 yar weapon, cus ya will do more damage.. But if ya really +12 yar weapon.. 15% wont show as much as shooting faster or cri more.

Like TigerLily once said..

Hell skills have a diferent TWIST that makes them shine more

Aim low and wing pledge arent all that better in there demon variants. Thats why its not important to get them.

I dont see why Aim low is not important.. still ya havent convince me.. why not gettin more damage skill.
Wing pledge probably not a hurry.. but not a OMG IM GONNA KILL MYSELF I GOT IT..
it is a gud add of atack too

Shadowvzs - Lost City · January 2010

let me tell my opinion and few fact what some ppl ignore:

Take Aim -

PVE:
1. against boss is useless, if u plan u spam with this skills then forget it because with normal attack u are better dps (so -1 who say its nice because hell have shorter charging time, bot sage/demon useless agaist boss)
2. against mobs, u cant (can but senseless) spam with this, for starter skill is good.

i prefer with this the Sage.

PvP:
Sage: this very weapon refine depend, if u have good eq dmg then this is the most strongest skill (here i mean most stronger nuker skill, not dps)
Demon: demon version kinda sucks, better if u use dark deadly shot

draw, or if good refined then +1 Sage.

Quickshot:

PvE:
1.Boss.
Sage: useless until u dont forced to getting faster chi.
Demon: this is the only chance for do similiar dmg in longer term than sage, why?
u have 50% to success, u have 6sec duration so u need in avarage luck 2x for this speed buff:
-1sec the casting the skill+normal hit+2508dmg+3sec normal hit and +1 again casting and normal hit+2508dmg+6sec with 30% speed buff.

demon:-2sec wasted+u got 3sec normal hit+5016 dmg+6sec with +30% attack speed (and 270mana used in every 11 sec)
sage: 11sec normal hit with +25%eq dmg(15% from mastery +10% from firebuff)

lets say i have noob eq so in 11 sec (eq and speed gear depend) i get minimum 5016 dmg only from the +25% eq dmg and 2sec free hit when i can hit vs +30% sec attack speed for 6sec (pls dont forget the +4%sharptooth give a bit advatage to sage on huge hp boss)

if u want spam x min only with quickshot for doing maybe a bit more dmg than sage then ur choose, i preder stay during dding on easy but long boss semi afk.

+1 to sage normal hit

2. mobs. here obviousl the speed killer is the demon version.

PvP.
Sage: useless
Demon: luck depend but usefull

so here +1 to demon

Stunning Arrow:

PvE
Sage: against mobs only usefull for saveing a bit more time else normal hit better.
Demon: useless here too because normal hit enough, only in special case usefull in both path.
(i dont talk about boss because its obviously not usefull there)
draw

PvP:
Sage: nice nice the sage
Demon but demon win here

Aim Low
PvE:
Sage: this good in solo mob killing to increase the distance between u and mob, sealed mob run away but in general seal+paralyze same than hell version so here really low the difference between demon and sage, have very little chance for paralyze dont work only the 25% demon/sage effect and pretty similiar usefull/useless.

draw

PvP:
Sage: same effect the paralyze+seal than hell, only difference:
only barb got 1 skill and all others class immune to movement blockage skill is useless against seal, lets say bm do his lv59 skill or archer his wings of grace and if u got luck for seal then he suc-ked for 5sec.
Demon: pretty similiar but here stun+paralyze , both avoidable with pot or skill

+sage

Deadly Shot:
PvE:
Sage: too long casting skill
Demon: best skill for 1st hit but in generally for mobs only mana waste.

0,5 demon

PvP:
Sage: only maybe for blowing up somebody but still cause slow, its pretty useless
Demon: no comment

+1 to demon

Wings of Protection
PvE:
sage: useless
demon: same useless

and same in pvp because the dodge use the sense at high lv when u can learn this skill from book and 0,5m/sec? its kinda similiar useless than sage 1h duration.

Thunder Shock
PvE:

+Sage for longer duration

PvP:

+1 demon (but 10% is really low)

Winged Blessing

PVE:
+1 sage for keep bigger distance and in pve the 10% acc dont change nothing and 1 % crit after 3x% not big deal

PvP:

kinda draw.

Sharpened Tooth Arrow

PvE:

1.against boss the sage win
2.against mobs but useless cause reduce 16/20% exp from mob
3.delta draw

PvP:

both sucks but a bit better the demon.

Winged Shell

both 2 side(pve.pvp) i prefer the sage version.

Blazing Arrow

PvE:
Sage ofc

PvP:

draw (what u can kill in 20sec that u can kill without +10% eq dmg too)

etc etc etc

sry but my opinion is Sage is more dungeon boss oriented until dmeon is more pk oriented BUT if somebody reach then indifferent what class or what path u choosed in pvp, who spent more(with a bit brain) will be stronger.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd remove demon aim low and demon wing pledge from that list.

What Lady Asterelle is trying to say from here is that, comparing between Demon vs. Sage, those two skills are not better for Demon.

She is NOT saying "Don't get these skills," nor is she saying "Don't use these skills." She's just saying those two skills are not pro-Demon reasons when compared to Sage.

For most practical PvE purposes, it does not matter what cultivation you choose. Just shoot things and don't die.

Illyana - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Someone once asked me in PM why I enjoyed sage over demon, so I went about explaining how I felt about it. Many others disagree, but here is what I came up with:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AnoNaWLC4feNdHhQbFk3ZTB2RHBFd2FEdlh6WWhyZHc&hl=en

I'm sure in posting this, more will disagree with it.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2010

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Someone once asked me in PM why I enjoyed sage over demon, so I went about explaining how I felt about it. Many others disagree, but here is what I came up with:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AnoNaWLC4feNdHhQbFk3ZTB2RHBFd2FEdlh6WWhyZHc&hl=en

I'm sure in posting this, more will disagree with it.

Well I do see a couple of points I'd readily disagree with.

for barrage pve:

Sage version is better. As you level into your deltas (which should be one of the few instances you use barrage at your level) you stay alive more. Demon barrages tend to draw more aggro and die more frequently because of it, unless of course there is another demon archer using demon barrage sharing it).

I will never consider a skill that does superior damage a liability. Why is this not an argument against sage bow mastery? Sage's 33% damage reduction bonus also conflicts with BB's damage reduction and I certainly spend alot of time barraging while in a BB.

For shell:

Sage is better. It absorbs more damage. While a demon's shell will last longer, anything that hits you for less than 1000 damage in 10 hits is ridiculous.

It seems no matter what a shell pops in 1 or 2 hits and during that one hit it absorbs some 90% of damage irrespective of the strength of the shell. Even if it behaved as expected you just commented on demon serrated how 200 hp is not significant so it shouldnt suddenly become significant here. Demon shell shines when you see the 30 second duration equals the 30 second cooldown. This means that for bosses with an occasional nasty AOE or random attack a demon can be constantly shelled while a sage can't keep the shell up. Not only this but demon shell regenerates more MP which is good for archers that use it for that purpose.

Wings of Protection PVE:
If anything the better demon evasion buff is only useful in PVE since mobs have much lower accuracy than players. Sage version saving you 150MP every hour seems negligible.

Quizenbort - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Let me settle this one and for all... flip a coin.

Illyana - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well I do see a couple of points I'd readily disagree with.

for barrage pve:

I will never consider a skill that does superior damage a liability. Why is this not an argument against sage bow mastery? Sage's 33% damage reduction bonus also conflicts with BB's damage reduction and I certainly spend alot of time barraging while in a BB.

For shell:

It seems no matter what a shell pops in 1 or 2 hits and during that one hit it absorbs some 90% of damage irrespective of the strength of the shell. Even if it behaved as expected you just commented on demon serrated how 200 hp is not significant so it shouldnt suddenly become significant here. Demon shell shines when you see the 30 second duration equals the 30 second cooldown. This means that for bosses with an occasional nasty AOE or random attack a demon can be constantly shelled while a sage can't keep the shell up. Not only this but demon shell regenerates more MP which is good for archers that use it for that purpose.

Wings of Protection PVE:
If anything the better demon evasion buff is only useful in PVE since mobs have much lower accuracy than players. Sage version saving you 150MP every hour seems negligible.

I will definitively agree with you over demon barrage PvE; the only time in which I do not condone doing massive amounts of damage is if it wipes your squad. Hopefully demon barrage users have good aggro control barbs and BMs in deltas and if they do, demon barrage is superior by far. Sage barrage has benefits in a one cleric IH situation where another barb is not present or people are too lazy to individually pull adds.

As far as 200 HP being significant, it depends on when its necessary. In a PvP setting, I don't know of many demon archers who will pop a serrated arrow just so they could be healed a bit more, but I do know archers of both celestial paths who will pop a shell right before they're being attacked. Considering you'd pop a shell in the appropriate context regardless, I'd want the one that could absorb more damage... even if it is only 200 more. As far as demon shell lasting longer for boss AoE, I can definitely see the utility but given the option of the two I'd still pick sage.

Kristoph - Lost City · January 2010

Quizenbort - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Let me settle this one and for all... flip a coin.

^this is how I did it, no joke

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2010

I really suspect that shell does not work as described. If a boss normally hits me for let's say 3000, with shell it might hit for only 300. It feels as if shells are capable of absorbing more than their limit for that one one large attack that pops it.

Illyana - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I really suspect that shell does not work as described. If a boss normally hits me for let's say 3000, with shell it might hit for only 300. It feels as if shells are capable of absorbing more than their limit for that one one large attack that pops it.

Yes, the "absorb" doesn't fully work... it lets a certain amount of damage through. I have not tinkered with it enough, but that is my suspicion as well.

Illyana - Dreamweaver · January 2010

My comparison is a side by side on a per-skill basis; certainly qualitative differences between each skill exist, some denote these as >>> versus >>>>>>>, like sage versus demon quickshot and celestial spark, for instance.

Red Bubble negates a demon's attack speed enhancement, just as BB negates a sage's defense enhancement. I didn't mention it, I just said that demon spark was better than sage spark on the whole which is still my overall assessment given a skill-to-skill comparison.

My aim in comparison is to highlight the real-game PvP and PvE applicable differences between the paths; of which 30 seconds of mana regen really isn't a significant benefit, but you are right, it is a benefit none-the-less.

Kristoph - Lost City · January 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I really suspect that shell does not work as described. If a boss normally hits me for let's say 3000, with shell it might hit for only 300. It feels as if shells are capable of absorbing more than their limit for that one one large attack that pops it.

That one's pretty obvious... it prevents oneshots in pvp mostly. Try attacking a guard with it on and then again without... or hit the destroyer if you fail gv with it on. It'll absorb over 100k damage.

Devoted - Lost City · January 2010

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

That one's pretty obvious... it prevents oneshots in pvp mostly. Try attacking a guard with it on and then again without... or hit the destroyer if you fail gv with it on. It'll absorb over 100k damage.

No it won't o.o our shield isn't percentage based. As for flipping a coin I will probably be doing that soon as I can't decide between sage and demon because it's much more balanced for a wizard. Strictly talking pvp for an archer, demon wins when you factor in every situation possible in pvp.

Sage Archer or Demon Archer?

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