Myth Buster: make a veno to get rich....

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  • XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver
    XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver Posts: 455 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You can save the aggro archer once... twice... or even more. But once you're out of sparks the aggro archer will die, some other squishy will get aggro and die too. And, of course, it's all veno's fault.

    Note: I'm not being sarcastic. It happened to me more more than once.

    And yet if the Veno HADN'T dropped that skill and saved him, then the DD would have died several more times than they did at the end, eh?

    And if said DD has aggro on something that they can't tank on their own, and someone is actively trying to pry it off them REPEATEDLY while they're just standing their blasting away like an idiot and not taking the chance to regroup and let them...then I'd be more inclined to blame the DD. >.>
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »
    ..............
    b:puzzled
    me wish me could herd 8-10 seaspray bladewolfies......and take no damage meself.
    =(

    how come no one mentions the solo "aoe" grind ability of venos on mobs at or higher then their level....

    Because most people that think of it, quickly realize what a ridiculous comparison is being made. But, lets go through the facts for this one. Lets take my herc right now. It's level 95, it has 86% damage reduction when buffed, meaning it takes 14%, it also has 4360 hp. Unbuffed I have 6787.5 average magic attack and can fire off a heal every 2.095 seconds. Heal Pet 10 is 540 hp+30% of magic attack. What this all means is I heal 1229.7136 hp per second.

    Using the method Solandri thought of to calculate potential reflect dps, 1229.7136 hp/sec with 14% of damage being taken means 8783.6686 damage/sec being taken prior to reductions. Since reflect 5 is 70% damage reflected that means 6148.568 damage is reflected per second when chain healing, ignoring the time it takes to build up to that (and the herc has 2935 attack if you want to work that in there too). If damage goes above that amount for a bit, the pet will die. Infact, since we're using the middle values here it's possible for the herc to die with less damage intake too.

    Anyways, lets say 20% physical reduction (seems about normal) the herc will put out 2386.62 damage/sec. Add that to reflect and we're up to 8535.188 maximum damage dealt. Noxious deals an average of 17880.875 damage to each target for me, with the 7.825 sec cycle time on it that's 2285.0958 damage/target per second.

    If I'm fighting atleast 4 mobs I come out ahead by using noxious rather than relying on a maxed out reflect. Further, it takes me 2.625 seconds to fire off noxious and then another 2.095 seconds to get my heal on my pet. That's 4.72 seconds of no pet healing.

    For my pet to survive 4.72 seconds with no heals, it can't take more than 923.7288 damage/second meaning that maximum reflect damage comes at the cost of being able to AE. If I have any hope of using noxious, the most reflect+melee damage the herc can deal is 7005.264 per second, and in reality need it to be even less than that so I can heal with a margin of error for the pet incase I pull aggro on something, or so it's not being taken to it's minimum hp.

    Basically, to sum it up... it's more effective to kill things in a group of 2-4 than to AE a large group for a veno. While the veno can kill a large group so long as we can heal the pet, doing that costs us too much damage compared to other things we could do, and even when doing it at the optimal point, AE's can never provide more than 49% of total damage, or it will steal aggro from the herc (not taking bash aggro into account, that can push you up to about 60% total damage) and... considering venomous for me (without taking the chi gain into account) puts out 6164.3795 damage/sec, plus the 2386.62/sec from the herc and you can see my 8550.9995 single target damage/sec means the efficiency gain is pretty small.
  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You can save the aggro archer once... twice... or even more. But once you're out of sparks the aggro archer will die, some other squishy will get aggro and die too. And, of course, it's all veno's fault.

    Note: I'm not being sarcastic. It happened to me more more than once.

    Oh, I completely understand. I was just trying to prove a point that the skill is pretty much Squad based, as I honestly have absolutely no use for it alone. And you're right. I've used that to save several archers/wizards... Some of which don't understand the concept of "It's attacking me. I should probably stop blasting it." And then they blame my Herc, (Me) for not holding aggro, when everyone knows that Hercs are crappy, crappy aggro holders. Of course, then, when I do try to switch to my aggro holding pet, I get yelled at for not using my Herc...
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    And then they blame my Herc, (Me) for not holding aggro, when everyone knows that Hercs are crappy, crappy aggro holders. Of course, then, when I do try to switch to my aggro holding pet, I get yelled at for not using my Herc...

    You know, I don't think this is common knowledge really. It seems most common among venos, but even then it's really just the ones that have a herc which realize it (and even some of them don't).
  • BarbHammer - Heavens Tear
    BarbHammer - Heavens Tear Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    If you are one of those that work hard for your coin, don't worry about it, just be happy you worked your **** off for what you got.
    I do as the Romans do, I wash my hands of thee.
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Long post is going to be long.

    I love how the facts I'm reading here are - several of them anyway - all based on "If you spent the MAX amount of money and MAX'd this and MAX'd that" Your maths - however true they may be - are all based on if you had max everything and anything. And really, that's pointless, because if we want to talk about the potential anything of anyone it's easy enough to do.

    If you want to talk about if somebody spent all their money on skills, and levelled to the max, and had the best of everything, then sure maybe you'll decide that a veno is more expensive at, say, level 90! Or the wizard is more expensive at level 90! But... not every veno is level 90. And depending on how you play the game I'm pretty sure that not even all of your maths will prove how much richer or poorer one class is to the next. It's little more than some general statement.

    Early in the game, venos easily have the potential to be the richest of the classes. Less repair costs then the other classes, less need to squad than some of the other classes. Later on in the game, at level 5x or above, people can catshop their way into richness, at which point it doesn't matter what is the richest class. Because anybody with half a brain can catshop and make money - and if you do it properly you make more money than the others.

    My earlier point was that you do not need a Herc to get rich. You can solo the TT instances with a magmite - I never specified which TT instances exactly. When you talk about soloing squad mode, please remember it's called squad mode for a reason. Yes, a Herc can tank that mode. I never said it would turn out profits - unless you farm for continuous amounts of time. But remember. SQUAD mode. Not "Veno with a Herc, solo this and get rich!" mode.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Roin - Harshlands
    Roin - Harshlands Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Arverna - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I made 20 mils from AH, 2-3 mils from TT

    77 pure mage veno with magmite can NOT EVEN take Chintien TT 1-1 in Squad mode, tried many time and I am pure magic :)

    Single mode is not even worth the sub (did TT2-1 single maybe 30 runs killing all 3 bosses and you can make cash (actual benefit) only during dble xp event.

    I repeat again: i am good with my magmite, have a lot of fun, but ppl should maybe start to understand that: "make a veno you will be rich" is an easily busted myth...

    Make a veno without cash transfer from another chara and come back to me in 2 month :)

    Period :)


    i made a 6x veno and i made 5mil allmost only grinding on my bm i have 300k and i need to lvl more skills on my wiz i had 300k after my 59 skills veno grind 4 free and only a fail veno needs 2 worry about repairing
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    My earlier point was that you do not need a Herc to get rich. You can solo the TT instances with a magmite - I never specified which TT instances exactly. When you talk about soloing squad mode, please remember it's called squad mode for a reason. Yes, a Herc can tank that mode. I never said it would turn out profits - unless you farm for continuous amounts of time. But remember. SQUAD mode. Not "Veno with a Herc, solo this and get rich!" mode.

    A veno soloing solo mode in TT, no matter what pet they use, will loose money instead of making money. The exception is during double drop events.

    Therefore your point was not valid, that is why everyone went on to talk about squad mode. The only way a veno can at least break even, is by running squad mode, since the medium mode does not require subs, unlike the solo mode which requires 1, 2 or 3 subs. (same as high mode squad). To maximize your efforts, venos actualy need to have some squad members, since, if they do not, it takes too long to run a TT squad alone. A good compromize is 2 venos (although you still have to skip a couple of the bosses), best for a small squad is 1 barb 1 cleric 1 veno (than you can do all bosses up to 3-1, except belial).
    Roin - Harshlands wrote: »
    i made a 6x veno and i made 5mil allmost only grinding on my bm i have 300k and i need to lvl more skills on my wiz i had 300k after my 59 skills veno grind 4 free and only a fail veno needs 2 worry about repairing

    Only a fail BM cannot AOE grind solo 300k-400k+ per hour after level 89. So what is your point?
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Michael - Harshlands
    Michael - Harshlands Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Equally you can just control your expenses, my brother made a veno and by level 60 had gotten a nix off pure grinding and by level 80 had gotten a herc to go with it and still hadnt enter a single HH. (and yes this was with insane gold prices and paying 40 mill for each).

    Any class can make alot of coin if you plan your expenses and work to minimise them as much as possible. Once you have the things you want then you can slowly increase your expenses (plusing gears, adding shards, learning skills you dont need for grinding coin)
  • eternalnab
    eternalnab Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    i like my tt90 set wat i got at lvl88 for soloing 3-1 in squad mode hrhrhrhr
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Putting slow 5 on my Armored Bear cost 1,850,000.
    Putting bash 5 on my Herc cost 1,000,000.
    Putting FR 5 on my Nix cost 950,000.
    Putting bash 5 on my Magmite cost 600,000.
    Putting toxic mist 5 on my Magmite cost 1,100,000.
    Putting tough 5 on my Magmite cost 1,250,000.
    Putting threaten 5 on my Magmite cost 1,550,000.
    Putting icicle 5 on my Scorpion cost 900,000.
    Putting toxic mist 5 on my Scorpion cost 1,000,000.
    Putting bash 5 on my Scorpion cost 800,000.
    Putting tough 5 on my Marksman cost 1,250,000.

    what is the logic of putting toxic mist on your pet?

    aside from the fact that mobs typically have higher mdef than pdef (like light armor...lol we're mobs), don't you already deal wood damage?
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    A veno soloing solo mode in TT, no matter what pet they use, will loose money instead of making money. The exception is during double drop events.

    Therefore your point was not valid, that is why everyone went on to talk about squad mode. The only way a veno can at least break even, is by running squad mode, since the medium mode does not require subs, unlike the solo mode which requires 1, 2 or 3 subs. (same as high mode squad). To maximize your efforts, venos actualy need to have some squad members, since, if they do not, it takes too long to run a TT squad alone. A good compromize is 2 venos (although you still have to skip a couple of the bosses), best for a small squad is 1 barb 1 cleric 1 veno (than you can do all bosses up to 3-1, except belial).

    It's debatable whether they will loose money, or make it. I cannot solo TT to get mats I may need for my armor. I have to squad up, and pray that the mats I need drop for one, and that I can actually get those mats, for two. A venomancer minimizes the cost of their gear by soloing TT for mats they may need. You won't be able to get all of your mats, sure, but you will probably be able to get more than I am. Therefore, actually, you're mistaken - if you have the patience to farm enough, then you can save money and minimize what you actually spend.
    By being able to spend less, you gain more coin than I do. If you solo single mode TT purely to make money then, yes, you need to be doing it hundreds of times before you actually start to make any profit.

    Secondly, you can talk about soloing squad mode TT all you like, but this in itself brings up the point that other classes cannot solo squad mode. Yes, I will agree your Herc costs a lot of money and that by soloing TT in squad mode that's one of only a few ways you can make that money back. However, it is squad mode TT, it was not designed for you to solo. Complaining that you are not necessarily going to make costs back by soloing a TT anything in squad mode is pointless. And why?
    Because nobody else can solo squad mode. You know, unless they're 10x and have refined their gear to a severe degree and have damned good shards in their gear to boot. The simple ability to solo squad mode easily gives you venos the potential to make more money than other classes, because other classes are not able to do so.

    But again, this is all talking potentials. Like I said the first time, we can discuss potentials all day - but depending on how you play the game you will be spending more or saving more than other players. A 6x barb who can catshop well can make as much money as a 9x veno soloing squad mode TT - it all depends on how you play.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    what is the logic of putting toxic mist on your pet?

    aside from the fact that mobs typically have higher mdef than pdef (like light armor...lol we're mobs), don't you already deal wood damage?

    The all aggro control thing... in order to be able to go all out with skills, we need to have the pet hold aggro, and having only 1 aggro skill really sucks. On non-herc pets, having 3 aggro skills lets you go all out and not worry about loosing aggro. Elemental bashes have faster cooldowns than FR, so they are faster to cycle. As a bonus, some of the elemental bash skills can be bought from AH for 10k-30k, which is a nice price for the skill itself. Unfortunatly you still have to pay full price to upgrade the skill.
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Stuff

    With that we can agree. Merchandizing is where the money is.
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    ehhh i had one pet learn a 2nd bash-like skill, but it's lightning. cuz that's good for the only element that you do reduced damage to - wood mobs
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Putting slow 5 on my Armored Bear cost 1,850,000.
    Putting bash 5 on my Herc cost 1,000,000.
    Putting FR 5 on my Nix cost 950,000.
    Putting bash 5 on my Magmite cost 600,000.
    Putting toxic mist 5 on my Magmite cost 1,100,000.
    Putting tough 5 on my Magmite cost 1,250,000.
    Putting threaten 5 on my Magmite cost 1,550,000.
    Putting icicle 5 on my Scorpion cost 900,000.
    Putting toxic mist 5 on my Scorpion cost 1,000,000.
    Putting bash 5 on my Scorpion cost 800,000.
    Putting tough 5 on my Marksman cost 1,250,000.

    That's 12,250,000 and I'm purposefully excluding rare skills from this as that gets into the same territory as book prices rather than training costs. I also didn't include all of my pets, only the ones that see the most use. For reference that puts Veno's at 1935330 coin below a 3 skill tree BM. Including my plumpfish would put the total for Veno's above a 3 skill BM. Yep, we're the cheapest class when it comes to learning skills.
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I maxed every single skill I have if I use it or not. I'm getting the sage version of them all if I use them or not.

    I'm not sure if I agree with the logic here. Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If you want to play this way, I have 33 skills that I can get Demon/Sage for, you have 25. Granted that the books for the 4 ults will cost a lot more than most of your books(Q_Q poor me).

    As for Nix and Herc cost, my GX axes cost me 50-60 mil. If I were to get Angder, the TT90 gold zerk spear, that'll be 70-80 mils (10 GBA's at 2 mil each thanks to 2X drops, 2 souls at 20 mil each, subs, TT60-80), then another 50-60 mil if I were to get TT90 gold zerk fists. Last and least, the zerk sword probably at 10-20 mil. This is not including when I hit 95 and "need" 4 Lunar weapons of course. I'll need another who-knows-how-much for the 99 debuff spear. Shall I go on?

    12 mil to max those pet skills, that's what, 30 mils if you mentioned all the rare skills too? 50 mils? What about the money to 2-socket, garnet-gems and refine all my 9 weapons to +12? I'll need the 160 mil love tome and the event cape for the -int between hits to support my Lunar Claws of course. And oh boy if I were going for 4 Warsouls...

    Back to reality. The money you spend on Herc is an optional investment. You'll be making those coins back from soloing TT. I can have 4 TT90 gold weapons and still gets squished by the TT boss. At lower levels Venos have almost no repair fee and barely any pot fee after Soul Transfusion. Those 2 alone stack up.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    what is the logic of putting toxic mist on your pet?

    aside from the fact that mobs typically have higher mdef than pdef (like light armor...lol we're mobs), don't you already deal wood damage?

    That's exactly why it gets toxic mist for a secondary bash skill. Those elemental bashes, like nukes have aggro that scales to the mob type. On a wood mob, a venos nukes have less aggro, so less aggro output is needed, while on an earth mob our nukes have more aggro, so a higher aggro skill is desired. Toxic Mist does both of those. Also, being wood, I've found it's more common to run across a demon veno than a wizard in a squad. That means I can take advantage of the wood debuff to make it deal additional damage.

    The reason for the icicle is because djinscream is fire. The max damage pet against him is claw, icicle, and two other damage skills other than fireball. I'm sage rather than demon, but toxic mist seemed to fit well there too. If I were demon I would place more priority on toxic mist than I do, but it still makes a solid elemental bash for non demon venos because of the aggro and potential debuff.
    It's debatable whether they will loose money, or make it. I cannot solo TT to get mats I may need for my armor. I have to squad up, and pray that the mats I need drop for one, and that I can actually get those mats, for two

    The reason you lose money (actually, you're on DW with me, you don't lose money with the prices here unless you do 1-X, but you don't make enough to justify the time spent either as other areas result in more profit/hour) is because the mats that can drop in solo mode are generally inexpensive. With the drop rates and sub costs, you'll find they come pretty close to balancing each other out.
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I'm not sure if I agree with the logic here. Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If you want to play this way, I have 33 skills that I can get Demon/Sage for, you have 25. Granted that the books for the 4 ults will cost a lot more than most of your books(Q_Q poor me)

    Well, to be fair. I was adding up training costs only (and 1050000 coin for each 79 skill for the ink price which is effectively the training cost). Once you start getting into the costs of obtaining the books themselves things start to become very messy and the ability to get/buy a skill varies with the player almost as much as with the class.

    I also pointed out that a BM who maxes all four of their weapon skill trees will have the highest costs. Even when factoring in the costs of increasing skills on veno pets, a veno would still run about 10-15 million short of a 4 tree BM. The important difference to keep in mind though is that short of the level 100 skills (which aren't that big a chunk of the final total) and crush vigor (sage)/soul degeneration (demon) every single skill holds value to a veno. If you would like, I can name a situation where each and every skill is useful to an arcane veno... even those fox melee ones.

    My knowledge of BM's isn't really enough to say if you would find maxing out every skill useful or not but again, what you find useful would depend on the player more than the class. Even in this thread, you've got some venos that are quite content to buy only venomous, ironwood, and heal pet while you've got others like Zoe and I that want every single skill maxed out because we see value in it. I could say the same thing to a BM, perhaps a fist BM only finds value in shadowless kick, drake's breath, and cloud sprint. I would find that pretty dumb, as would several BM's I'm sure, but that's essentially what you're doing when arguing to exclude certain skills from a veno's lineup to fit your argument. The skills are all quite valuable, which provides decent justification to train them. Though, even if they weren't valuable some people like me would train them anyways, because not having things maxed out is unappealing.
    As for Nix and Herc cost, my GX axes cost me 50-60 mil. If I were to get Angder, the TT90 gold zerk spear, that'll be 70-80 mils (10 GBA's at 2 mil each thanks to 2X drops, 2 souls at 20 mil each, subs, TT60-80), then another 50-60 mil if I were to get TT90 gold zerk fists. Last and least, the zerk sword probably at 10-20 mil. This is not including when I hit 95 and "need" 4 Lunar weapons of course. I'll need another who-knows-how-much for the 99 debuff spear. Shall I go on?

    I don't really make an argument for or against herc/nix costs. To me, all pets are just more equipment slots to function as weapons and armor. In the same way that people expect a certain level of damage, or hp, or resists by a certain point in the game, I see hercs/nix's as expected by a certain point in the game. It's just another sunk cost, all classes have them. Some have them up front, others have them recurring, and some have a mix.
    12 mil to max those pet skills, that's what, 30 mils if you mentioned all the rare skills too? 50 mils? What about the money to 2-socket, garnet-gems and refine all my 9 weapons to +12? I'll need the 160 mil love tome and the event cape for the -int between hits to support my Lunar Claws of course. And oh boy if I were going for 4 Warsouls...

    I intentionally left rare skills out. If those were being included I might as well add in two more hercs as well. One herc for blessing and one for claw. Then herc buffs for my marksman, herc buffs for my plumpfish, claw for my marksman, and so on. Then of course, the prices on all of that stuff is inconsistent.

    Shards are a non factor, everyone uses them. Refines are the same. Armor once more is a non factor, your argument here is ridiculous and has nothing to do with costs.
    Back to reality. The money you spend on Herc is an optional investment. You'll be making those coins back from soloing TT. I can have 4 TT90 gold weapons and still gets squished by the TT boss. At lower levels Venos have almost no repair fee and barely any pot fee after Soul Transfusion. Those 2 alone stack up.

    I'm not denying that veno's solo better, especially at lower levels, but other classes do close that lead at higher levels, and eventually surpass it. Take a look at the shouts for various classes for gamma, delta, and frost sometime. I saw a grand total of two wc's for venos in gamma during the time I was 70 to 85. Since 85 I haven't seen a single one for a veno in delta, though people are more willing to take venos in gamma now it seems (not to say venos aren't taken to delta, they do get invited to them but unlike other classes they aren't randomly sought out) and frost, despite some veno demand still isn't near the demand other classes have. I imagine some of that is due to class overpopulation, but at the same time demand is such that other classes do take the lead eventually.

    As for low level maintence costs, sure that helps but... that amount you save is practically nothing when looking at it from a higher level. That's the thing about relative expenses, coin saved earlier doesn't have much impact on you later in the game. Certainly not enough to buy a legendary pet.
  • Divine_Death - Harshlands
    Divine_Death - Harshlands Posts: 323 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    but that's essentially what you're doing when arguing to exclude certain skills from a veno's lineup to fit your argument. The skills are all quite valuable, which provides decent justification to train them.

    I didn't exclude any skills. Venos have 25 skills that have the Demon/Sage option. Leaving out book costs and one path, BM still can get 28 Demon/Sage skills. And that's more towards Zoe's "I maxed every single skill I have if I use it or not. I'm getting the sage version of them all if I use them or not.

    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Shards are a non factor, everyone uses them. Refines are the same. Armor once more is a non factor, your argument here is ridiculous and has nothing to do with costs.

    I didn't mention armor, cape and tome is for supporting fists/claws but we can leave those out. Shards and refines are factors here because we are talking about 4-9 weapons that I COULD have if I want to vs one or 2 weapons you guys use. Same as you don't necessary need all those pets you listed or max all the skills, but you CAN.

    Guess my point is that talking about the cost of skills and pets/pet skills are pointless argument because if we look at what a class CAN get as to NEEDS to get, BM can easily come out ahead.

    Edit: >_> err wrong avatar.
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    I don't get why this thread is still going, veno's can solo farm mobs/instances with ease, hardly any repair/charm costs etc. They make money a lot easier than others no matter how you look at it.
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »
    I don't get why this thread is still going, veno's can solo farm mobs/instances with ease, hardly any repair/charm costs etc. They make money a lot easier than others no matter how you look at it.
    As I explained before, whether or not venos can grind money easier than other classes is irrelevant. Anyone can run a cat shop and make more than 10x the money a veno can make grinding. It's like complaining your parents gave your sister a slightly bigger slice of cake than they gave you, when the entire cake is sitting in front of you and you're free to take 10 more slices if you want.

    Anyone can make oodles of money in this game. It is not class-dependent. Take it from someone who's made more than 300 million in the last 3 months.
  • Coraline - Lost City
    Coraline - Lost City Posts: 867 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    As I explained before, whether or not venos can grind money easier than other classes is irrelevant. Anyone can run a cat shop and make more than 10x the money a veno can make grinding. It's like complaining your parents gave your sister a slightly bigger slice of cake than they gave you, when the entire cake is sitting in front of you and you're free to take 10 more slices if you want.

    Anyone can make oodles of money in this game. It is not class-dependent. Take it from someone who's made more than 300 million in the last 3 months.

    Lol, selling what? Pulling mats and gear out of thin air? Excluding HH, venos can grind, make a decent profit and get exp at the same time, with or without a herc. With catshops, other classes you need to farm or make or however you get what you are selling and wait in adc and sell. Thus losing out on exp and possibly more money from grinding. That is of course unless you have a shop account and just give that the goods you are selling and while you that shop is in adc, you can continue to grind or farm. But unless you have another computer you cant or you get the risk of getting banned with multi clienting. You can set up a shop at night while you sleep, but most get d/ced during the night or their computer cant run 24/7.

    To make that money that you made. I think either you cashshopped and sold gold or anni packs, did the free surveys and sold the gold that way, got really lucky opening packs and sold high lvl gear or buy gold low and sell high.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    eatswithspoons "*roll eyes* real money for virtual property? That's definitely not allowed"

    Lol what?
  • BarbHammer - Heavens Tear
    BarbHammer - Heavens Tear Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Why can't all classes just get along. I mean come on, the ones that QQ about Veno's being to powerful, why not roll one yourself. Venos aren't that cheap, they have some expenses I do not want. But a Repair bill I would love. b:laugh

    But seriously why do people keep bringing up the opinion that a Veno is easy and richest. Think of this way, we all have the same chances to make the same money.
    I do as the Romans do, I wash my hands of thee.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Coraline - Lost City wrote: »
    Lol, selling what? Pulling mats and gear out of thin air?

    To make that money that you made. I think either you cashshopped and sold gold or anni packs, did the free surveys and sold the gold that way, got really lucky opening packs and sold high lvl gear or buy gold low and sell high.
    I've spent a total of $10 on this game, and that was a year ago when I first started, to buy a super inventory stone.

    I usually check all the cat shops in W Archo every 2-3 days for good deals and to get an idea of what prices are. I then set my sell prices a bit lower to maximize my sales volume.

    The anniversary packs I bought (470 of them) were all financed by coin I made with my cat shop and converted to gold. My luck opening them was about average (464 luck tokens, 10 best luck, 4 rare items, 2 plat charms, 96.6% luck tokens vs. 97% nominal). Cost-wise, I spent ~235 mil on the packs, and got ~306 mil worth of items and tokens from them. 271 mil if you exclude one item which I kept, so the packs only accounted for a net profit of ~40 million (basically means I was one rare prize away from losing money on the packs).

    Approx 80 million I made from liquidating items I'd stashed for later resale during the Jolly Jones event back in August. I suppose if you wanted to be a stickler you could attribute that profit to August.

    About half the remaining ~200 mil was from buying tokens, converting them to items, and selling those. If you bought the lowest-priced flawless shards on AH on HT in the last couple months, you probably bought from me. I was pretty ruthless about canceling my auctions whenever someone listed shards at a lower price, and re-listing my shards at an even lower price. Only took about 5 min to do that twice a day.

    The rest was buy low, sell high.

    Maybe 20 mil from TT runs. And maybe a million or two from Cube runs.

    Oh, I did make about 1.5 mil buying gold low and selling high, but that was accidental. One day the spread on gold opened up to 200k, and someone(s) kept trying to spike the price by putting in bids to buy 1 gold at like 50k more than anyone else. I kept selling him my gold to get rid of his bids, and putting in my own bids near the true buy price to replenish my gold supply. When it was over, I had actually made 1.5 mil from the whole thing. It could've easily been a loss if people hadn't completed my bids. It seemed to work though since gold prices settled at about 60k lower the next day (went from 520k to 460k).

    I do have multiple computers and multiple accounts now. But I started like everyone else did, setting up a shop when I wasn't playing (I had to scrounge up some old 3D cards to get the game to run on my other low-end computers).
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Divine_Death - Harshlands wrote: »
    I didn't exclude any skills. Venos have 25 skills that have the Demon/Sage option. Leaving out book costs and one path, BM still can get 28 Demon/Sage skills. And that's more towards Zoe's "I maxed every single skill I have if I use it or not. I'm getting the sage version of them all if I use them or not.

    However, I wasn't comparing book costs at all. Book costs vary by server, and even by the day you price them. That's not something that you can easily account for. BM's have the most skills yes, so it stands to reason they'll spend the most on skill books but what you spend isn't something that can easily be accounted for. It's like comparing a herc and a barb's higher repair costs, the point at which the repair costs pass the cost of a herc is going to vary so widely that any decent sort of range where it occurs is going to be practically 40 levels wide.
    I didn't mention armor, cape and tome is for supporting fists/claws but we can leave those out. Shards and refines are factors here because we are talking about 4-9 weapons that I COULD have if I want to vs one or 2 weapons you guys use. Same as you don't necessary need all those pets you listed or max all the skills, but you CAN.

    I would argue all those pets are needed. Marksman/bear=pullers, marksman=range tank, herc=tank, Magmite=higher aggro tank, scorpion/nix=dps, plumpfish=water tank. Different situations require different tools for optimal effectiveness.

    Can you actually find uses for 9 weapons that warrant their costs? If you can, great. If not, you're taking the most expensive option just to argue. I could do the same thing and take multiple tomes into account depending on human vs fox form, bring up multiple sets of gear (HA/AA veno, physical/channeling ornaments, and so on) but I'm avoiding that comparison as well, because it depends on character build more than anything.

    It also begins to forget exactly what we're arguing over. It's not a matter of arguing are veno's the cheapest like was stated earlier, and quickly disproven. We're arguing over whether veno's/bm's are the most expensive or second most expensive. Even if veno's are the second most expensive, that doesn't mean they're cheap.
    Guess my point is that talking about the cost of skills and pets/pet skills are pointless argument because if we look at what a class CAN get as to NEEDS to get, BM can easily come out ahead.

    Edit: >_> err wrong avatar.

    Needs vs wants are drastically different things. What players need is always far surpassed by what they want.

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