Bm loosing its awsomeness

135

Comments

  • Trista_Zel - Dreamweaver
    Trista_Zel - Dreamweaver Posts: 273 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It's not a narrow-minded view, it's just being honest about what we all already know. The term "DD" gets used because we all know exactly what it's referring to.

    Besides, what's so horrible about admitting that certain classes are interchangeable? I have a Wizard alt, does that mean I'm upset that I basically do the same thing as an Archer? No, why should I be?

    "And the rest" isn't derogatory. It's simply a statement about how many modern MMORPG have adopted the Tank-Healer-DD paradigm as the standard model for class balancing. PWI just happens to have embraced that standard.

    I've played several games where it's possible to tank as any class as long as you're prepared to do so, be it melee fighter, archer, mage, or cleric.
    Courage is the magic that turns dreams into reality.
  • ChaoticTears - Harshlands
    ChaoticTears - Harshlands Posts: 323 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It's simply a statement about how many modern MMORPG have adopted the Tank-Healer-DD paradigm as the standard model for class balancing. PWI just happens to have embraced that standard.

    Very true but they are all bar mostly clerics interchangable ( I say mostly clerics since I have tanked Fats with Wiz heals alone.. <3 Wizzies)

    Tank: Barbs, Bm, Veno, Some bosses Cleric's Wiz, Archer
    Healer : Clerics
    DD : Clerics, BM, Veno, Archer, Wiz, Depending on gears sometimes Barbs

    The only class that in most (not all) situations isnt interchangable is cleric's.

    Now wether Tibeborn Phy's changes that about cleric's we will have to wait an see
    [SIGPIC]http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb311/gav-d29/Crithit.jpg[/SIGPIC]
  • Kaizona - Harshlands
    Kaizona - Harshlands Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    So all my hard work (I'm still a nub) will go to waste????I been working on this char for months.And soon I'ma go bubbye because the assassin is to powerful. T.T
    Appliance perfect world.

    Death refridgerator vs dark oven.Who will win?
    Death refridgerator takes 902134 damage.
    PWND.
  • _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,294 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    ChaoticTears - Harshlands wrote: »
    Very true but they are all bar mostly clerics interchangable ( I say mostly clerics since I have tanked Fats with Wiz heals alone.. <3 Wizzies)

    Tank: Barbs, Bm, Veno, Some bosses Cleric's Wiz, Archer
    Healer : Clerics
    DD : Clerics, BM, Veno, Archer, Wiz, Depending on gears sometimes Barbs

    The only class that in most (not all) situations isnt interchangable is cleric's.

    Now wether Tibeborn Phy's changes that about cleric's we will have to wait an see

    Yeh, but the problem is your definition of interchangeable. Sure, a high level arcane wiz could be used instead of a lowbie nub cleric on an easy boss, but try doing BH69 with a single level 80 wiz healing and see how it goes. You'll need a cleric. And sure a high HP BM could tank a regular boss with a lowish squad holding back their damage, but try popping your BM infront of 2-3 wurlord, AE or a WB and telling him "K, we're gonna spam damage like mad so hold that agro, cancel all spells and tank all damage k =)". You'll need a barb.

    BM's, Archers and wizzies on the other hand... you don't NEED for anything. In pretty much every aspect, they can be easily replaced.
  • ChaoticTears - Harshlands
    ChaoticTears - Harshlands Posts: 323 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sure, a high level arcane wiz could be used instead of a lowbie nub cleric on an easy boss, but try doing BH69 with a single level 80 wiz healing and see how it goes. You'll need a cleric. And sure a high HP BM could tank a regular boss with a lowish squad holding back their damage, but try popping your BM infront of 2-3 wurlord, AE or a WB and telling him "K, we're gonna spam damage like mad so hold that agro, cancel all spells and tank all damage k =)". You'll need a barb.

    BM's, Archers and wizzies on the other hand... you don't NEED for anything. In pretty much every aspect, they can be easily replaced.

    Yes true but being NEEDED for a few doesnt mean they are not interchangable for most.

    Ofc sometimes you NEED a Barb be stupid to think otherwise, but they are not as needed for as much as alot of players think they are.

    like I said earlier:
    Classes:

    1) Cleric
    2) The rest
    [SIGPIC]http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb311/gav-d29/Crithit.jpg[/SIGPIC]
  • IDaun - Dreamweaver
    IDaun - Dreamweaver Posts: 261 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Tanks are kind of interchangeable. Barbs are needed in a few specific places-- but really anything that can take the damage and live can be a tank. A barb is NICE, and, of course, would take priority over a BM of similar skill level, but it's not the only one that can do the job every time.

    And whoever says, "I NEED this or I take aggro!" Stop it and learn to play your char. I know I'm not that high level on my wizzie, but, I've never taken aggro off someone if I didn't want to. I've seen venos and archers take aggro off our BM tank for Qingzi multiple times.

    Why? Because they don't know how to hold back their damage until the BM is ready. Having a secondary tank takes a group effort. The archer can't just afk attack while a BM is tanking-- use your brains.

    /One/ of the only reasons that Barbs are so 'needed' is because DDs want to go all out with no consequences. If a Wizzie or Archer has enough common sense not to rush ahead of the group-- why in the world would they 'rush ahead' of the BM on a boss?

    Or venos... at level 53 you can solo FB39, right? On a veno? Well, most venos can, 'cause my high vit one could... anyways. We had a squad of four venos and a tabber-- 5x, 5x, 6x, 7x, and a 3x barb. We invited a cleric for heals on Farren and just general watching out for us.

    She left, saying that "It could not be done without a barb". I know this is a fairly low level example, but, it's people like this that are setting the stage for 'free wine' and PAYING a barb on TOP of free wine.

    Yeah, the barb is the BEST tank, but, not the ONLY one. And I'd take a good BM/Veno/whathaveyou over a bad Barb any day.
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=7660692001&dateline=1259283228[/SIGPIC]
  • Conavar - Heavens Tear
    Conavar - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,193 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    IDaun - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    it's people like this that are setting the stage for 'free wine' and PAYING a barb on TOP of free wine.

    Thats pretty much only BH69 though, since thats the BH people panic over most because of the Debuff of Polearm. Bm's can tank it but the higher HP of Barbs give the Cleric some leeway with Purify.

    Before and after that (up to BH89, I havent done 99 yet), they cant get away with asking that, since other classes can easily tank the bosses.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    1. The only needed class that is never truly interchangeable is not a barb. It is not a venomancer. It is the cleric. BH 59 is a perfect example. Wizards, venos, archers, BMs, they can tank Drake and they can tank Qianji.

    Since we're all being so generic here in fact, we should be honest and say any class can tank. After all at level 80 I can FBs 19-59 and some of the mobs in 69. Therefore, by MMO standards, I am a tank. We don't need barbs 24/7 and people need to get this into their heads.

    Barbs are also supposed to be tanks. The fact that they get people paying them to join a squad does little more than inflate their e-peen. I couldn't care less if you were the best barb on earth, if I had to pay you to make you do your job in a BH squad (especially if you need that BH) then you're going to find yourself either not invited or getting kicked. You're part of the team and I assume you need the BH if you're coming along and are around the right level. Therefore, you can pay like everybody else does if I wine it. Why? Because you aren't that damn special and there is no reason to pay you for doing your job. You don't see me paying a veno for pulling or a cleric for healing. You don't see me demanding money for DDing. Don't think you're about to get money for doing your own job and tanking.
    A generic you there, by the way, but this idea barbs are so needed all the time, for any boss in existence, is a ridiculous notion and shows either oracle noobs are starting to get the better of all of us or people just don't know how to play their own class any more.

    2. Yes, DDs are interchangeable. We aren't your needed class, technically. But unless you like spending hours in dungeons with only a cleric/barb/veno combo you'll more often than not take one.

    Ever seen those "DDs needed for TT!" world chats? Yeah. We might be interchangeable, but this doesn't actually mean we aren't needed. Because most people don't have four to six hours to try and stomp through FB89 or whatever dungeon you happen to be doing.

    So, all in all, clerics are the only true needed class because you cannot replace them in a squad. But this doesn't make the other classes unneeded, and the idea a DD is an unneeded member of a squad does very little besides promote a bad attitude towards DDs in squads.

    This said, several DDs need to wrap their heads around the fact that they are not built to be tanks or healers. If a wizard runs into the middle of fifty mobs, I say let the guy die for his own moronic mistake. Maybe he'll learn something. If an archer doesn't pass on their damage for a lower level barb or for a BM tank then let them steal aggro and die, they might learn something too. Namely the thing they learn is if they don't play their class properly they die.

    If they QQ like a noob once they're dead you'll know to blacklist them for being an oracle baby, amirite? =D
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary
    WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary Posts: 1,686 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    1. The only needed class that is never truly interchangeable is not a barb. It is not a venomancer. It is the cleric.
    I'll agree to that.

    Just look at the somewhat absurd number of HPs that many bosses have, despite the bosses being almost no threat. The quest descriptions should really just say, "Fetch a Cleric and (X number of) Mana-Pots/MP-Charms, then proceed to co-ordinates xxx,yyy and stand there for 20 minutes while the Cleric uses up the items you brought."
    Trista_Zel - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I've played several games where it's possible to tank as any class as long as you're prepared to do so, be it melee fighter, archer, mage, or cleric.
    True, there are lots of games that don't rely so heavily on the Tank-Healer-DD model, and they work just fine.

    In fact, I prefer games where healing is a luxury that only the survivors of a (very brief) combat get to indulge in, and protecting your squishies depends upon careful positioning and tactics, rather than "make the monsters really stupid" aggro skills.

    However, those kinds of games don't really lend themselves to casual mass-market RPG gaming.
    IDaun - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Yeah, the barb is the BEST tank, but, not the ONLY one. And I'd take a good BM/Veno/whathaveyou over a bad Barb any day.
    Me too.

    The way I see it, as soon as Aggro skills were invented they became a trump-card that solved the problem for game designers of how to allow un-skilled or un-organized players to still progress. They're like training wheels for people who just want to play click-until-it's-dead.

    I'd much rather play a game that doesn't have aggro skills, thus forcing players to actually think-before-they-click. This is why when I play other classes I like to play solo, or at the very least WITHOUT a Barb around. I enjoy the challenge.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com
  • Sharea - Dreamweaver
    Sharea - Dreamweaver Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    You shouldn't worry about the Assassin taking the place of the BM. For one they're LA so they can't tank. Ever. The Assassins in other MMO's are fast hit n run. They don't stand around and get hit. They cant take it. There the Ninja's. They come in, do some damage then there out. If the fight lasts to long they die. There fun to play but they wont replace any other class because they are like no other class.
    It will take time for the new classes to find there place. Alot of players wont accept them. they will want to stick to the tried and true Party. If it works why fix it. It will take some time for the Tideborn to show what they can do.
    A Barb is meant to hold agro. They don't do alot of damage but they can take alot.
    The BM is a DD. They are suppose to hit hard and survive the hits they take to a point. They cant take as much as a Barb and shouldn't.
    Every class has a purpose. Thats the way the game is designed. Thats where the balance is. No one class can replace another because there all different. One BM can replace another BM because of skill but no other class can.
    Important things to remember:

    1) Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

    2) If at first you don't succeed, failure may be your style.

    3) If your going into an fb and the BladeMaster screams "LEROY JENKINS" as he runs into the cave, leave the party. It's only going to get worse from then on.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DeadlyGhostT - Heavens Tear
    DeadlyGhostT - Heavens Tear Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It's a nice sentiment, sure, but let's face reality. A lot of times you NEED a Cleric, sometimes you NEED a Barb, a Veno doesn't NEED anybody but themselves. And then there's the rest. Competent or not, they're interchangeable.

    usually barbs are only for tanking not damage dealers if the others as bms arent there a boss with only cleric and barb or others would last way longer than with a bm with high damage^^
  • Wolfgore - Heavens Tear
    Wolfgore - Heavens Tear Posts: 293 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    ChaoticTears - Harshlands wrote: »
    Lol imagine a full squad of Barbs, never get anything done, be to busy moaning about charm ticks and repair bills b:chuckle

    Now imagine a squad full of barbs, gathering huge packs of mobs then Armageddon em x6 b:bye
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Multi-BM squads are actually wonderful to watch. Everything around them just... falls down.

    Then they reach the boss and come to a screeching halt and have to play ping-pong with aggro.

    anyhow, yes - assassin seems like they're more DD than a BM and even less tank, but with a better self heal and a really interesting buff.

    Will they steal BMs role in squads? Who the heck knows. BMs don't have a particularly well defined role in most squads. I'm not sure you'll see any worldchats asking specifically for assassins though.
  • Silver - Dreamweaver
    Silver - Dreamweaver Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »
    this really makes me wonder... WHY would they make a melee weapon rely on DEX for damage? that absolutely does not make sense. DEX in almost all MMOs increases ranged damage, i dont think daggers are ranged :P.

    Waffles...I swear I explained this 2 you in other thread.... But since im in a good mood i'll explain it again.

    They want assassin to be an ASSASSIN!!! Assassin shots are accaurate, they are fast, they can hit you in "Critical Spots" and if they wanted all of that (excluding attack intervals) guess what they need... Dex!!! omg its crazy isnt it.

    Also if they made it so they needed str whats the point, your just making a different looking Fist BM, thats it
    Most Ironic phrase in the English language is Common Sense, its easiest concept to understand yet few people ever grasp it.

    ~Silver
  • Lu_ - Heavens Tear
    Lu_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Death r u kidding? Assassins r a hit and run character. Regardless of what u read, u WILL NOT BE a 2nd tank w/ an Assassin! Any questions, think of them like this, Archer w/ Melee Weapons!
  • _Mr_ArcheR_ - Sanctuary
    _Mr_ArcheR_ - Sanctuary Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Lu_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Death r u kidding? Assassins r a hit and run character. Regardless of what u read, u WILL NOT BE a 2nd tank w/ an Assassin! Any questions, think of them like this, Archer w/ Melee Weapons!

    exactly... so they can't replace archers, melee and ranged attack are two complete different things b:worried
  • AlbireoTwo - Lost City
    AlbireoTwo - Lost City Posts: 2,056 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    So, first people QQ about BM's not being considered strong.
    Then they QQ about BM's being weak.
    Am I missing something here?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Thank you Forsakenx for the picture. b:thanks
  • Deathsscion - Sanctuary
    Deathsscion - Sanctuary Posts: 325 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    AlbireoTwo - Lost City wrote: »
    So, first people QQ about BM's not being considered strong.
    Then they QQ about BM's being weak.
    Am I missing something here?

    The natural desire to QQ about everything and anything. You will figure that out eventually.
  • XylolyX - Heavens Tear
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    DeathX - Lost City wrote: »
    Ok i want to discuss something about bms. The expansion is coming soon and it kinda pisses me off now that thier is a new race and to tell u why is because when the new race is out what is the point of a Bm now. i looked at al the tideborns skills and now that i see them bms are toataly useless now.Every class in PWI IS NoW OVERPOWERING THEM. the tideborns now have longer stuns and awsome aoes along with fast DD skills and on top of that we have a new mag dmg class and thats the last thing we need if ur a bm. i just want ur opinion on this topic.

    Wow you're jumping ahead of the gun a bit don't you think?

    BMs that know how to play their toon will ALWAYS be useful. All toons have their place in a squad. We don't know what the squad dynamics of the new classes will be yet.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Lvl10XBarb
    Lvl10XArcher
    lvl10XAssassin
  • Conavar - Heavens Tear
    Conavar - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,193 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    If you are in a halfway decent Faction you will always get into squads no matter what your class.
    Since they should always be willing to help you out.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • XylolyX - Heavens Tear
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    ChaoticTears - Harshlands wrote: »
    Lol imagine a full squad of Barbs, never get anything done, be to busy moaning about charm ticks and repair bills b:chuckle

    Ran an FB19 with 6 3X and 4X barbs. It was amazing and fast. No clerics or DDs needed. None of us had charms at the time.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Lvl10XBarb
    Lvl10XArcher
    lvl10XAssassin
  • WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary
    WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary Posts: 1,686 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you are in a halfway decent Faction you will always get into squads no matter what your class.
    Since they should always be willing to help you out.
    Cool! I was wondering how to make my next character playable, and now you've given me the solution!

    *Shouts on WC*
    "Robe-Bowbarian looking for halfway decent faction to join!"b:chuckle
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you are in a halfway decent Faction you will always get into squads no matter what your class.
    Since they should always be willing to help you out.

    You said "help you out". Am I right when I say that when your factionmates go to help YOU when you are supposed to be the helper, then something is wrong? Not sure about you, but I couldn't ask my friends/factionmates/anyone to help me if I was the helper in the first place. I understand if I needed fb19 then it's okay but when I would be helping someone in fb19, asking for more help would be... wierd.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Mosabi - Heavens Tear
    Mosabi - Heavens Tear Posts: 378 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    I dont have have to worry about not bieing needed anymore since am the number one go to guy when it comes to magic bosses.....

    No one can deny mages are the best magic tanks u can say cleric are good but we can always double or magic ressistence you know ;)
    Is Back once more.

    sorry med school needs some time.
  • Deathsscion - Sanctuary
    Deathsscion - Sanctuary Posts: 325 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Mosabi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    No one can deny mages are the best magic tanks u can say cleric are good but we can always double or magic ressistence you know ;)

    Also fun to hit Elemental Shell when someone asks what your resistance is and tell them that number. Better when they don't know about that spell and ask "How is that possible!?"
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There have only ever been 4 classes in PWI, and that's not changing:

    1) Cleric
    2) Barb
    3) Veno
    4) and the rest

    I'd say:
    1) noobs like you
    2) ppl that know how to play their class and know other classes inside out too.

    for 1) I have an example from today:
    WC- need tank for fb39
    me: I can tank
    WC: lvl?
    me:94
    WC: Class?
    me: what lvls are u guys?
    WC: 39-50, class?
    me: wizard
    WC: I got a tank, ty.
    me: ok, what lvl?
    WC: lvl 45 barb, better than u.
    b:shocked

    Poor idiot has no idea I can solo that fb ... but hey, knowing that isn't necessary, right?
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Maragon - Dreamweaver
    Maragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 645 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Mosabi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    No one can deny mages are the best magic tanks u can say cleric are good but we can always double or magic ressistence you know ;)

    They may be the best tank with a healer but i would like see you tank drake in fb59 for BH without a healer...or charms...or spamming HP pots...or using apoth or any of that
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Deathsscion - Sanctuary
    Deathsscion - Sanctuary Posts: 325 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Wonder why they don't like wizards? I had someone asking for a tank for FB59 and the squad only wanted a barb eventhough I offered to help. I watched the leader shouting in Arch for about 10-20 minutes looking for one. Alot of fun watching people always looking for squads for the easiest FB in terms of getting a tank.
  • Maragon - Dreamweaver
    Maragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 645 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I'd say:
    1) noobs like you
    2) ppl that know how to play their class and knows other classes inside out too.

    agree 100% some ppl in my faction came back from a fb39 where there was a 75 veno in the squad who asked who was pulling.... when they said she was she asked how.

    I've been in, as far as class composition goes, perfect fb/bh squads that ended in epic fail as well as very horrible arranged squads that were the best i've ever been in all because the first didn't know what they were doing and the second did
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Conavar - Heavens Tear
    Conavar - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,193 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You said "help you out". Am I right when I say that when your factionmates go to help YOU when you are supposed to be the helper, then something is wrong? Not sure about you, but I couldn't ask my friends/factionmates/anyone to help me if I was the helper in the first place. I understand if I needed fb19 then it's okay but when I would be helping someone in fb19, asking for more help would be... wierd.

    I think you misunderstood since I cant really see where anyone has mentioned "Helping the helper"

    What I ment, to make it clear is :

    If they are half decent they will form the squad from within their own ranks to help any class out

    Ie: If a Wiz/Bm/Bowbarian etc needed a TT, a decent faction would form a Squad to help him/her. Regardless of what people view as the "norm needed" classes for TT

    @ Warren
    Robe-Bowbarian looking for halfway decent faction to join

    Whats the problem with that ? Aslong as they are a nice person to have in the Faction who care's how they build or play their character.
    Its a game, so its all about having fun. If thats how they choose to have fun good luck to them
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Categories