Close Range Penalty Should be Removed?

Aeldur - Lost City

SneakyStalk - Harshlands wrote: »

most ppl posting are other classes. not surprising.

and how do I know about high lvl archers on PvP... => via forums?

Then how about you listen to the majority of sane, none fail archers here that are making valid points then>_>

Ikurei - Dreamweaver

Aeldur - Lost City wrote: »

Then how about you listen to the majority of sane, none fail archers here that are making valid points then>_>

Wouldn't that defeat his argument that every high level archer thinks archers suck? Yes, I do believe it would.

Yo Sneaky dawg. You have stuns and **** yo. Use em and pwn sum nubs.







Also, kiting.b:bye

Teh_fishey - Dreamweaver

SneakyStalk - Harshlands wrote: »

So, we have seen the thread "I should have chosen another class" and stuff.
Every possible archer and every possible class agrees when they state that our class is the weakiest class. It doesnt matter if you go Pure, Hybrid, Magic or whatever, we are still the weakiest class.

So, with an expansion coming, wouldnt it be fair if the close range damage penalty should be removed? I think a very large poll where archers can leave their opinions about it should be useful, right?

If you still don't know what Close Range Damage Penalty is, try to hit a mob from your max range and you'll hit lets say 2X damage. If the mob is next to you, you will only do X damage at most. No other class have that penalty.

I didnt post in General Discussion because obviously the other classes might QQ about it and vote "No", but I trust GM's would carry our thoughts and suggestions to the developers.

Please leave your thoughs and vote because this might be the chance that we finally have a bearable life. I know it does not sound logic that the damage from an archer is consistent no matter distance but its not logic that either Pandas, Lions and Wolves transform in White Tigers, right?

EDIT: I dont have problems, Im just afraid that when I reach high lvl and start PvPing its gonna be difficult, since every possible archer claims archers are in clear disadvantage.

Few stuff. First of all your edit. ARCHERS ARE PROLLY THE BEST FKIN PKERS THERE ARE!

Every class has its advantages and disadvantages. Also perhaps if your QQing 'bout the range deal. Stay away from the mob. If you wanna pull more damage you can either kite or start from a distance. Plus according to lots of archers I meet, they can usually kill the thing before it reaches them.

"finally have a bearable life"?
LOL! If you dislike archers, don't be an archer. If you can't handle being an archer, don't be an archer. Every class has its ups and its downs and every class is both hard and easy. The classes aren't fair in every aspect, however when you look at all the aspects from a whole they are fair. Your life should be bearable, I know plenty of archers who are just fine with it.

Balint - Dreamweaver

SneakyStalk - Harshlands wrote: »

most ppl posting are other classes. not surprising.

Because it's TOTALLY not possible for people to have more than one class.

Rillien - Heavens Tear

Surprised this hasn't been said already...

Reroll a mage and then you'll learn about gimpy pvping. Archers are widely regarded as better DD, more survivable, and easier to play. The reduction is there for a reason.

deli

Bad SneakyStalk, we are losingb:laugh

OOCKYOo - Sanctuary

I dont think the penalty needs to be taken away, but could really use knockback.
Whole purpose of being an archer is keeping your distance, which is why you have skills that slow, stun or stop targets.
We also have closerange skills that dont get the penalty, but as I recall they are mainly magic. (Melee mainly goes Heavy armor)
Only thing I think needs to change is knockback, even if all the classes got their pushback skills activated (Like barbarian's Slam or BM's Atmos Strike) I doubt they would want to use it on archers.
I guess this is the reason why it has no effect, since only archers would benefit from it, but the penalty should be enough to balance it out. (knockback also gets the penalty if youre trying to get your opponent away from you when already at close range)
Just a thaught :P

SneakyStalk - Harshlands

I think I stated my opinion with more drama than I intented to in the first place.

I agree, the knockback could be a nice add. Although.. I have seen some high lvl bows ith Knockback and even Berserker... does that knockback works in PvP?

Kiting is cool but when a barb stuns and beats you from 0 to holy **** in 3 secs, kiting is not possible lol.

Well, poll has a winner already. Just hoping that Assassins come soon to pawn Nixomancers.

Aeldur - Lost City

Knockback doesn't work in PVP cause then we could simply knockback aplayer intoa group of obs that aggro like **** and wipe you out, giving you the satisfaction of killing someone without actually doing it, and turning red.

SneakyStalk - Harshlands

Aeldur - Lost City wrote: »

Knockback doesn't work in PVP cause then we could simply knockback aplayer intoa group of obs that aggro like **** and wipe you out, giving you the satisfaction of killing someone without actually doing it, and turning red.

LOL sounds right but IIIII dont think thats the main reason

Quilue - Sanctuary

ilystah wrote: »

If you want to remove the penalty, think about class balance. How are mage suppose to beat archer, when archer have decent magic resistence, but mage physical resistence is not a par? Archer also have longer range than mage, and also higher DPS.
When Deceptistar said 2X bonus, she meant archer deal high damage to begin with. Compare archer damage with barb damage and you will see.

decent magic resis? we have higher magic resis than heavies, but not nearly as much hp. barbs can have **** magic resis but they end up with what? 18k hp or something? even more? archers? probably like a 3rd as much.

and a mage's pdef is totally on par with an archer. dont give me that. even a robie socketing garnets and wearing pdef orns end up with more pdef because they have earth barrier, and mdef, we don't even need to go there. if the mage is LA, we probably deal less damage to them than to another archer. it's a fact: lategame mage > lategame archer

archer's high damage is as a result of going pure dex, it's as a result of stats only; if all the barbs on this server didn't go vit, then they'd do pretty big damage as well. oh wait, have we forgotten about zerk?
barb >> archers lategame, i dont think anyone would care to argue this one.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

Look at your other skills too like the 89, 92, and 99. If they are as useless as the 79 then you should start a thread stating how it can be utilized to the best. If they are balanced as in some are good and some are bad, then you are just picking out the bad ones just to complain. You seen cleric 92 skills? they all pretty much suck munky balls unless you go money, sp, and too much Old Book pages to sell. Even the purify is not worth the cost unless they go down as much as apoc pages.


well i hope to god you do know how to socket your armour at that lvl,<_< and know that clerics similarly do NOT put up a earth barrier >>; You DO know that your stats put into VIT and STR as a melee make alot of diff. with base HP and def right?.....

no, i'm not picking the bad ones to complain, i just think that the fact that we have a suck 59 skill says enough already. and the 79 skills of both classes is familiar to me - not the clerics 89+ tree

archers will socket hp, that doesn't give us good defense. if we socket anything else it just makes us suck in the other defense department. clerics have a pdef buff as well (60%?); that's what i meant when i said "clerics probably do similar things as a wiz for pdef". and a LA cleric would socket similar to how an archer socket - except they get buffs. all in all, LA clerics become very hard to kill for archers - prove me wrong

Accelerated - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

decent magic resis? we have higher magic resis than heavies, but not nearly as much hp. barbs can have **** magic resis but they end up with what? 18k hp endgame? even more? archers? probably like a 3rd as much.

and a mage's pdef is totally on par with an archer. dont give me that. even a robie socketing garnets and wearing pdef orns end up with more pdef because they have earth barrier, and mdef, we don't even need to go there. if the mage is LA, we probably deal less damage to them than to another archer. it's a fact: lategame mage > lategame archer

archer's high damage is as a result of going pure dex, it's as a result of stats only; if all the barbs on this server didn't go vit, then they'd do pretty big damage as well. oh wait, have we forgotten about zerk? also, archer vs barb at high levels is HARD. **** that ****

You realize zerk is an additional skill that can apply to any physical weapons. It's not just limited to barbs and blademasters.

Magic is worthless to a barbarian. They use melee weapons, not bows. Dex is only good for crit rates, armors/weapons, and accuracy, nothing else for a barbarian. The amount of physical attack and physical defense benefits are extremely tiny for pure str build as well. Damages differ due to weapons and skills, not builds. The point of barbarians going pure vit build is usually due to the high damage outputs that Perdition can bring.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Accelerated - Sanctuary wrote: »

You realize zerk is an additional skill that can apply to any physical weapons. It's not just limited to barbs and blademasters.

Magic is worthless to a barbarian. They use melee weapons, not bows. Dex is only good for crit rates, armors/weapons, and accuracy, nothing else for a barbarian. The amount of physical attack and physical defense benefits are extremely tiny for pure str build as well. Damages differ due to weapons and skills, not builds. The point of barbarians going pure vit build is usually due to the high damage outputs that Perdition can bring.

o? find me a zerk bow, or a zerk magic sword. the only things i've heard of zerk being an attribute is melee weapons - or are you suggesting for archers and the caster classes to realistically fight with zerk melee weapons? i mean, it's pretty much limited to the barbs and bms.

builds do affect how much damage you do. you think an archer who goes vit build, with less crit, less base damage, would out dps a dex archer? i mean unless the vit archer is super rich and the dex archer is super poor, there is no way in hell the dex archer loses in damage output. the gap in damage between the two builds only goes up as the weapon is refined more and more.

Accelerated - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

o? find me a zerk bow, or a zerk magic sword. the only things i've heard of zerk being an attribute is melee weapons - or are you suggesting for archers and the caster classes to realistically fight with zerk melee weapons? i mean, it's pretty much limited to the barbs and bms.

builds do affect how much damage you do. you think an archer who goes vit build, with less crit, less base damage, would out dps a dex archer? i mean unless the vit archer is super rich and the dex archer is super poor, there is no way in hell the dex archer loses in damage output. the gap in damage between the two builds only goes up as the weapon is refined more and more.

Read it again, I said physical weapons, I never knew magic swords were for physical attacks O:.

☆Broad Land
&
☆Guardian of the Realm
Not exactly the same "moar attack powah for moar damage taken", but nevertheless, you gain moar attack powah.

And I clearly meant large differences in damage outputs are due to your weapons. Let's be quite clear, would you get the same average damage outputs using a level one bow vs a 8jun bow with the same builds? No, the weapon drastically changes your damages between the two weapons, while the build doesn't, unless you're a pure dex built. A pure dex archer's high crit damages are high because the weapon adds much to the base damage of an archer which is multiplied by two, since that's what a friggin' crit does. A barb can't even be a "pure dex character" due to them being unable to wear and use heavy armors and axe/hammer weapons, which completely takes out the reason for being a heavy armor wearing class.

And sure a pure str barb might do a few more points of damages around the time when they actually have a lot of str so they look different from a tank built barb, but until then, the difference is extremely tiny.

To be quite frank, why should archer's have their close range penalty be removed if they crit in close range? it's the normal damage while in range. =/

Archers_Soul - Lost City

LordSnow - Lost City wrote: »

wtf are you talking about.................... how are archers the weakest class???

On my archer mobs dont even get close enough to me where the damage penalty can take effect. You obviously suck at this class if you are having that much trouble.

to the best of my knowledge only pre end game archers are truely good. end game we get ****ed up badly b:sad

Quilue - Sanctuary

Accelerated - Sanctuary wrote: »

Read it again, I said physical weapons, I never knew magic swords were for physical attacks O:.

☆Broad Land
&
☆Guardian of the Realm
Not exactly the same "moar attack powah for moar damage taken", but nevertheless, you gain moar attack powah.

And I clearly meant large differences in damage outputs are due to your weapons. Let's be quite clear, would you get the same average damage outputs using a level one bow vs a 8jun bow with the same builds? No, the weapon drastically changes your damages between the two weapons, while the build doesn't, unless you're a pure dex built. A pure dex archer's high crit damages are high because the weapon adds much to the base damage of an archer which is multiplied by two, since that's what a friggin' crit does. A barb can't even be a "pure dex character" due to them being unable to wear and use heavy armors and axe/hammer weapons, which completely takes out the reason for being a heavy armor wearing class.

And sure a pure str barb might do a few more points of damages around the time when they actually have a lot of str so they look different from a tank built barb, but until then, the difference is extremely tiny.

To be quite frank, why should archer's have their close range penalty be removed if they crit in close range? it's the normal damage while in range. =/

assuming same equipment, build makes a lot of difference. something like 20% more damage or something on pure dex as opposed to vit. (not counting the gap in crit) i never denied that weapon doesn't make a difference in damage output (of course every archer, regardless of build, seeks to get the best weapon possible)...it's like you're refuting that apples grow on trees by saying oranges do. why don't you also tell me that level makes a difference in damage output too?

technically a pure dex barb would be str req to wield axe (3/lvl), rest into dex, just as pure archers are str req to wear light armor, rest into dex. but whatever...a truly pure dex archer would live on rank armor but won't even have a bow :P

to be quite frank, every other class also crits in close range, and they'd do 2x damage; like, what is your point?...i don't know why you people would think archers without close range penalty would be sooo overpowered. what is this? you people think archers would hurt like bms in close range w/out the penalty applied? first of all, even slingshots attack slower than axes, second of all, no archer uses normal attacks against heavies in the first place; whether we're 30 meters away, or we're 2 meters away. the change, if ever applied, wouldn't make much of a dent on archers' pvp. i'm not saying archers need this, i'm just saying it wouldn't matter. the rest of you other classes can stop worrying about the scary archer without melee penalty, because it wouldn't be much more scary at all. that's all i'm saying.

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Rillien - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Surprised this hasn't been said already...

Reroll a mage and then you'll learn about gimpy pvping. Archers are widely regarded as better DD, more survivable, and easier to play. The reduction is there for a reason.

ya so true b:shedtear
and QQ seriously I should QQ tons more then you but I don't like 80% of the people who PK me are archers.
but the magic hamster has a list and will shoot them down.
lol I don't even PvP at all but.... right after reading this I decided to see if i could be like an archer you know fly a good distance behind em land shoot your strongest thing and watch em die.... well they just turned around and started chasing me
gah dang I want undine strike b:cry
b:shutup
only class I have a chance against is like a BM whos like 5 levels lower then me and completely unaware i'm there DX

Elviron - Dreamweaver

I guess the developers tried to keep in mind physics while adding the damage penalty for close range for archers. However, I guess they got it inverted or maybe wrong.

Archers -> Ranged Physical Damage Dealers
Mage -> Ranged Magic Damage Dealers
Venos -> I guess they are similar to mages when it comes to ranged skills (ranged magic that is)

Now magic damage being in energy form would require any penalties since the intensity wouldnt vary much in distances (atleast the distances we work with). I hope this is clear.

As for physical projectiles (arrows, shots, bolts), the damage done should actually increase as the range decreases as the speed and force of the projectile would increase as the range decreases. An arrow would penetrate a target better at close range than at long ranges as as the arrow travels for a longer distance the speed decreases. The same principle applies to a gun fired at close range and a gun fired from a long range.

Now from a developer's point of view,
Developer #1: "Hmm I am going to give a damage penalty when the distance is more between the archer and the target to keep in line with physics"
Developer #2: "Err wouldnt that mean, archers would let others get near to them to get better damage? In which case, they would become as good as a melee class"
Developer #1: "Oh ****!!! Youre Right!!! I will invert the penalties and give a damage penalty when the distance is less"
Developer #2: "Dude, that doesnt make sense at all. How can it be less when the force/speed of the arrow would be much higher at closer range?"
Developer #1: "Thats where my new system comes in!!! The bows and slingshots will be auto-adjusting devices that reduce the force with which they release arrows at short range. This means that the damage would be lower. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA"
Developer #2: *Gives up and leaves the room*

In truth, archers should actually get 2x damage during close ranges since that would keep the mechanics of projectile motion in line.

The possible penalty could have been than we get hit 2x harder when the target is near us which would make sense. This would mean a BM/Barbs close range attack would hit archers 2x harder than their ranged atks.

MagicHamsta - Lost City

WHOA careful there Elviron if they go with your suggestion to do 2x damage at close range then they just as easily can make it do 1/2 damage at max range since that keeps in line with physics too as force will be reduced due to air resistance. And all heavy armor wearers will become completely immune to normal arrow attacks at far range as arrows can't really penetrate properly refined and reinforced steel/iron alloys. which incidentally is also MAGICALLY IMBUED in this game. b:shocked
next thing you know you see archers chucking spears to penetrate armor and developing guns~ *sarcasm ^.^'*

also shouldn't magic do more damage too since it's obviously a type of energy originating from the caster and has a set range closer to a fire = more hot?. and for that matter shouldn't wizards have like jedi mind powers since they already have Force of will which is just a step behind forcing your will to make the other person make you a sammich or cutting off a blood vessel or something b:shocked

Elviron - Dreamweaver

So now we actually come down the point to question what does the base attack/physical attack actually signifies. Following are the options for physical ranged attacks:-

If physical attack signifies the attack for long range, then the short range attack should be doubled

If physical attack signifies the attack for short range, then the long range attach should be halved.

So it finally comes down to how it is precieved.

For magic attacks, the enegy doesnt vary over distance because of the said "Jedi" powers b:laugh.

Anyways if we were to include physics in here, we would have make this a FPS game with the following stuff:-
1.) Targetting system for ranged attackers since theres no way a projectile is going to follow the target like a heat-seeking missile.
2.) Melee Attackers' speed for charge is reduced everytime they are hit with a projectile since that effectively always reduce movement speed. God dammit, you cant run the same speed with an arrow lodged in your **** [can mean any 4 letter part of your body], youre supposed to be lying on the ground.
3.) Headshots are one shot KOs. Common, i dont see how a person can be alive with an arrow or an energy blast thru his/her head.
4.) Melee classes can dodge or block incoming projectiles using their weapons etc. I guess this is valid enough.
5.) Can use the environment to support their gameplay. i.e. Arrows/Energy blasts do not pass through trees and rocks <.<.
6.) Wearing a heavy armour makes you move slower for obvious reasons.
7.) Archers can carry at the max 50 arrows on them and not thousands. How is this even possible? b:shocked. If they run out of arrows, they would need to make arrows using wood or switch to using blades like the elves in Lord of the Rings.
8.) Slingshots should be removed. The whole thing about archers is that they use bows and arrows and not stone propelling catapults <.<.
9.) Decrease the size of the higher level weapons. Come on, blademasters and barbarians are not hercules to weild 20 foot hammers/axes/swords and that one one in each hand. Imagine the effort taken to swing something that big. This applies to archers and mages as well <.<.
10.) Barrage of Arrows from an archer? Huh, I didnt know an archer could shoot that many arrows in a single shot b:shocked.

List Could go on.....

So given the complications involved in sticking to physics and realism, keep the mechanics as is but perhaps include knockback effect against players as well.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

3.) Headshots are one shot KOs. Common, i dont see how a person can be alive with an arrow or an energy blast thru his/her head.

I think BM and barb might like this concept lol

4.) Melee classes can dodge or block incoming projectiles using their weapons etc. I guess this is valid enough.

and mages will open their mouths and swallow them up

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

What do you mean by close range penalty I was aware of this?

SneakyStalk - Harshlands

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So now we actually come down the point to question what does the base attack/physical attack actually signifies. Following are the options for physical ranged attacks:-

If physical attack signifies the attack for long range, then the short range attack should be doubled

If physical attack signifies the attack for short range, then the long range attach should be halved.

So it finally comes down to how it is precieved.

For magic attacks, the enegy doesnt vary over distance because of the said "Jedi" powers

Anyways if we were to include physics in here, we would have make this a FPS game with the following stuff:-
1.) Targetting system for ranged attackers since theres no way a projectile is going to follow the target like a heat-seeking missile.
2.) Melee Attackers' speed for charge is reduced everytime they are hit with a projectile since that effectively always reduce movement speed. God dammit, you cant run the same speed with an arrow lodged in your **** [can mean any 4 letter part of your body], youre supposed to be lying on the ground.
3.) Headshots are one shot KOs. Common, i dont see how a person can be alive with an arrow or an energy blast thru his/her head.
4.) Melee classes can dodge or block incoming projectiles using their weapons etc. I guess this is valid enough.
5.) Can use the environment to support their gameplay. i.e. Arrows/Energy blasts do not pass through trees and rocks <.<.
6.) Wearing a heavy armour makes you move slower for obvious reasons.
7.) Archers can carry at the max 50 arrows on them and not thousands. How is this even possible? b:shocked. If they run out of arrows, they would need to make arrows using wood or switch to using blades like the elves in Lord of the Rings.
8.) Slingshots should be removed. The whole thing about archers is that they use bows and arrows and not stone propelling catapults <.<.
9.) Decrease the size of the higher level weapons. Come on, blademasters and barbarians are not hercules to weild 20 foot hammers/axes/swords and that one one in each hand. Imagine the effort taken to swing something that big. This applies to archers and mages as well <.<.
10.) Barrage of Arrows from an archer? Huh, I didnt know an archer could shoot that many arrows in a single shot b:shocked.

List Could go on.....

So given the complications involved in sticking to physics and realism, keep the mechanics as is but perhaps include knockback effect against players as well.

Couldnt you just say "knockback effect agains players be kept?"

b:surrender I mean come on, you wrote half a page bordering physical laws of perfect world lol ... b:surrender

MagicHamsta - Lost City

if this game did follow actual physics then barbs/bms would be the most gimped class seeing as how all ranged characters have to do is AIM FOR TEH HEAD! im assuming you meant head instead of a 4 letter word starting with D or a C b:shocked interchangeably. but that would make sense too... who would still be standing after getting shot there. b:bye
also wizards would own seeing as they can make frigging mini meteors appear and water spout of out thin air and even in the water. as well as explosions of fire and even a dragon made of ice. I mean a giant rock that large to the head will definitely hurt alot more then any single arrow to the shin or something.
b:shocked


or they would suck even more then barbs/bm since "real life physics" says magic isnt real~ QQ~~ (T.T)
and you'll be the crazy person playing the class who twiddles their arm in the air imagining things.

Aeldur - Lost City

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

if this game did follow actual physics then barbs/bms would be the most gimped class seeing as how all ranged characters have to do is AIM FOR TEH HEAD! im assuming you meant head instead of a 4 letter word starting with D or a C b:shocked interchangeably. but that would make sense too... who would still be standing after getting shot there. b:bye
also wizards would own seeing as they can make frigging mini meteors appear and water spout of out thin air and even in the water. as well as explosions of fire and even a dragon made of ice. I mean a giant rock that large to the head will definitely hurt alot more then any single arrow to the shin or something.
b:shocked


or they would suck even more then barbs/bm since "real life physics" says magic isnt real~ QQ~~ (T.T)
and you'll be the crazy person playing the class who twiddles their arm in the air imagining things.

Make a game and incorporate these rules, cause well...****s and giggles really.b:victory

Elviron - Dreamweaver

@SneakyStalk
I couldve put in just that 1 line but then it wouldnt be fun b:laugh

@MagicHamsta
Well I did include the fact that Melee classes can dodge the arrows and energy blasts. If you run like a bull straight into it, then you really deserve it.

As for magic not existing in real world, well the wizard could be an ascetic in half-torn clothes who has spent a lifetime learning to manipulate elements using his/her mind. But they would end up looking like beggars b:laugh

PS: And i did mean all three b:quiet

LordRaptor - Heavens Tear

my opinion: if you are to stupid to play an archer....

LEAVE IT, or TRY TO LEARN IT

first you need time for you archer, alright.
I'm a lvl 64 archer, i think since the lvls 50+ i know how to play the archer right. thanks to HELLMUT for the "archer lessons" XD. If a noobie have to much probs on HT with his archer, just pm me i help you

Negerzoen - Dreamweaver

This penalty should never be removed. The point of archers is high critical hit strike and i mostly kill mobs when they aren't even attacking me. i am lvl 57 and got 16%. The lower the archer the harder it is. True, but this makes the archer class a hard char to play in lower lvls. I like this penalty.

Think over..
Use knockback arrow (lvl1) and Earthquake skill by the genie, both skills knock back the enemy a bit.
Besides upgrade the passive skill, which allows you to shoot from an extra 10 metres.

so from like 35m and 10/12m knockback and high crit hitstrike you should be able to survive this penalty.

MrConce - Harshlands

Archers are the most fail class in game. Believe it. If venoes didnt have bugged bleed, they would be (PVP, not PVE wise). If you encounter a good cleric, the fight will end up on you losing. Doesnt matter what you do, you can pot, you can use all your sparks on whatever you want, unless they stupid, you aint killing a cleric as an archer anytime soon. Same goes with mages, @ 79+, is gg. +7 weapon at 90+, and ur an damn ez 2 shot even with +6 on gear and all your defensive skils. Venoes, God remove that bleed and show their true colours (Im have a veno, so that goes both ways ^_^). Last but not least, we have the melee classes. Barb is pretty self explanatory. Unless u crit or triple spark, no way u taking one down. The moment u spark, any sane person would run from spark. Go on ahead and seal, paralize whatever, Genie will counter you and stab u in the back (tree of protection). They get close, GG. And bm... Wow. Most OP class agaisnt Archer. With Bms, they are same as barb, high hp, GX axes, and outrageous genie skills. Literally invincible, bm only needs to wait for you to waste all your sparks and anti stun moves and all you can do is run. They can tank ur hits with Marrow which is spammable so they can always have it on and if they are lazy and/or smart, they can alter marrows for chi building as they use their Balance genie skill to get chi and eventually dragon/spike with stun. GG trying to dd when every time u do u deal 20 damage or less than half of what u should be dealing. Sux knowing that the slihgt chance u have of beating a good bm, could easily be missed in a split second. At least every other class can sumhow manage to beat every other (except for barb vs bm and bm vs bm and barb vs barb cases. Those are obvious and only the pro of the proest will take down another melee wether it might be by skill or by pure cash shopping)

Defensive skills

Clerics have both seals and heals. If that is not good enough, then throw 79 skills. They can both run away easily and kill easily. Mages........Teleport. Id mention more, but I dont think there is more to say than teleport (ok maybe not, forgot their insane phys def buff). Barbs have high hp and amazing magic defense considering how crappy light armor is. When my barb was 60, it had more magic defense that my lv 80+ archer with HH80/lv 78 molders. Bms... woot, stun and run at insane running speed. If you actually wanna fight, use marrows. Nice defensive skills. Venoes... Bramble hood, a few stuns and decent running speed. What does that leave? Archers... hmmm a 79 skill that raises ur evasion by 1000%. Nice.. except it only last 6 seconds and it takes ur own evasion buff away, so all that godliness that archers are supposed to be great at (Miss Miss Miss) and they take it away. How come a cleric doesnt lose phys def buff when they plume shell? And what about bms? Use physical marrow and lose their golden bell? Anyways, back to archer, then they get a neat 79 that allows u to be immune to stuns for 8 seconds and puts u at max speed. Neat. Wow, One spark cost, Insane cooldowns for both 79 skils when 79 undine strike for wiz completly spammable and op. Fwi, it also removes ur speed buff if u have one -_-. Other honorable mentions for defensive skills? Winged shell and Wings of Grace. One spark move and another defensive move that goes down in one shot. Good luck trying to kill those opponents before they get to you when they got all of those ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Mentioned above defensive qualities. More could be elaborated from. But ima be clear on this. Archers are great dders. Tons of damage and great snipers and assasins. But when it comes to 1v1 pvp. Gross. Pathethic. IF anybody does not agree with me here, you are either drowning on your own ego or drowning on your own money. ANybody can +7 and higher a gear and be good. Dont let that get to your head when you say archer is great and op when we all know all you do is pick on people with lower refines and be like "Im ******N sexy" once u kill em. Bet those same people you always make fun off (Unless they archers as well) could get similar gear and **** you and then you be like wtf, Unless then again, they are jsut completly stupid. But i rest my case, the whole point of this is to show how weak archers really are. =] Flame on.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

Hmm perhaps the presentation couldve been a little better and organized but I guess this is the best you can do.

Anyways so your point is that our damage at close range be increased right? b:laugh considering youre theory is that archers are the weakest class at the moment.

Seeing how you have a 8x character (Cleric i presume), I thank for supporting our cause to augment the archer class.

The following is what I would like added to the archer class so that the other classes dont seem as overpowered as you mentioned:-

1.) A 10% chance to 1 shot KO any class irrespective of Defense buffs, HP, etc since headshots are 1 shot KOs unless you have Titanium protecting your skull (I guess this should take care of most of the classes here and we wouldnt even need high level equips or skills for this)

2.) Knockbacks enabled in pvp which means the melee classes would have a hard time (or never) getting near archers.

The above two additions would suffice to ensure archers are not as weak as you state them to be.

Can we have your support for our noble cause or great 8xer? b:laugh

On a more serious note, just becase they dont fare well in a 1on1 pvp doesnt mean the class is a failure. Different classes have different roles to play in a game.