Whats your build? come and be counted. (POLL)

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

so he +12's his xbow and hits hard, but that's not really because of his stat build is it? it's cuz of his xbow. i think we can still conclude that pure dex build itself is the hardest hitting build out of all the other options right?

pure dex does ****. he can drop any pure dex archer 1 vs 1. its all about refines for an archer. i would gladly give up 30 dex for a +12 weap. fyi, 30 dex is going to give you another what... 300-400 dmg? thats nothing against top refines.
people need to stop thinking going pure dex will let you own all non dex archers. you'll just end up walking down the street and get dropped by a vit archer.

Quilue - Sanctuary

you're missing the point. the discussion about stats builds is completely independent of equipment and equipment refines. you can go pure dex and +12 your xbow, then what would you have? pure dex is the hardest hitting build, no one said it necessarily means you'd be the harder hitting archer.

i would gladly give 30 dex for refines worth about 3000 bucks, like, no ****?

all you're proving is that refines make you do more damage, which no one is arguing against.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

you're missing the point. the discussion about stats builds is completely independent of equipment and equipment refines. you can go pure dex and +12 your xbow, then what would you have? pure dex is the hardest hitting build, no one said it necessarily means you'd be the harder hitting archer.

i would gladly give 30 dex for refines worth about 3000 bucks, like, no ****?

all you're proving is that refines make you do more damage, which no one is arguing against.

how can stat build be completely independent of equip? you build your stat around your equip at ALL levels. if they are completely independent, then you might as well reset your str to 3 and go "pure" dex and see how much dmg you'll be doing. people tell you to have str+4 for pure builds... why? because your armor REQUIRES str+4 at the level. what people doesn't realize is that stat point should always come 2nd to equipment. the hardest hitting archer will prioritize equip/refines over dex... why? because dex itself doesn't do jack. its a modifier for equipment stat... and without the proper equipment dex might as well be mag. people talk about dex being the greatest asset of an archer because its the easiest obtainable of the two. but in reality, archers is even more gear dependent then barbs.

at top levels, you don't impress people with your 350/360 dex. you impress people with your weapon. its only at low level that people give a **** about dex. talking about 1 being independent of the other is like crossing a 2 way street only looking at 1 side and hope you don't become some hood accessory for some guy.

Quilue - Sanctuary

well i meant independent of equipment as in both a dex built and a vit built archer would presumably wield the same kind of equipment; fine, they're not completely independent of equipment in the sense that both builds are restricted to the equipments their stats allow them to wear, but they are still independent of refines, since there's nothing stopping a pure dex from refining to +12.

and it's a fact that a pure dex build will hit about 17-18% harder than a vit build, assuming they are wearing the same equipment. of course you can say that a vit build with +12 refines will hit harder than a dex build with less refines, you can say that refines is more important than stat builds, and i'm not arguing against that because i agree with that

i'm just saying pure dex build is still the hardest hitting stat build. you said the hardest hitting archer is anything but pure dex built, as if there's some other build that lets you hit harder, when there isn't.

ClassySassy - Sanctuary

I only recently started this character but I've been using the pure build and loving it so far. Having 16% crit rate at this level (including gear bonuses) is just phenomenal. Thanks to practice and advice I received early on, most mobs die before they even come close to reaching me at this point in the game.

Devoted - Lost City

if a cash shopping pure archer fought a cash shopping vit archer with the same skill the pure would win easily. archers stack -interval endgame so more dex = more dps = more crit = way more damage. it'd take that over 1500 more hp when i already have 9k.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

if a cash shopping pure archer fought a cash shopping vit archer with the same skill the pure would win easily. archers stack -interval endgame so more dex = more dps = more crit = way more damage. it'd take that over 1500 more hp when i already have 9k.

sadly thats not how it works. every dex gives about 10-15 extra dmg if memory serves, a crit would push that to 20-30 extra dmg. 75% pvp reduction that would bring crits to have 5-7.5 more dmg (non crit of 2-3 extra dmg). if that point would be put in to vit thats 13 more hp. and if that point along with a few other point would to be put in to str, the archer would wear better helm and hence get more hp. with that aside, archer vs archer pvp isn't about who have that extra 20 dex. its soloy based on who has the lucky coin flip and string his crits.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

and it's a fact that a pure dex build will hit about 17-18% harder than a vit build, assuming they are wearing the same equipment. of course you can say that a vit build with +12 refines will hit harder than a dex build with less refines, you can say that refines is more important than stat builds, and i'm not arguing against that because i agree with that

i would like to see where you get 17-18% harder? lets just assume a non pure dex have 10k base dmg. to hit 17% harder, it would require the dex archer to hit for 11.7k. and to accomplish that you'll need 113 more dex then the non pure (15 dmg per dex, and this is the upper end of dmg per dex). i'll be the first to admit that i am not a pure dex archer, and i have well over 300 dex (can't recall the exact number). so... now which of those pure dex archers have over 400 dex?
i am sure you can argue that an extreme pure vit archer would have over 100 less dex then a extreme pure dex. but seriously, are we talking about realistic situtions or that 0.00001% extreme sitution?

Quilue - Sanctuary

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

sadly thats not how it works. every dex gives about 10-15 extra dmg if memory serves, a crit would push that to 20-30 extra dmg. 75% pvp reduction that would bring crits to have 5-7.5 more dmg (non crit of 2-3 extra dmg). if that point would be put in to vit thats 13 more hp. and if that point along with a few other point would to be put in to str, the archer would wear better helm and hence get more hp. with that aside, archer vs archer pvp isn't about who have that extra 20 dex. its soloy based on who has the lucky coin flip and string his crits.

the extra damage that more dex gives is based on your weapon attack. it gives more as you refine more. the formula that i trust is the following:

Ranged Attack Formula:
( ( 1 + ( ( 2 * DEX / 3 ) / 100 ) ) + MAS ) * ( LVL + EQA )

if you believe otherwise then please present it.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

the extra damage that more dex gives is based on your weapon attack. it gives more as you refine more. the formula that i trust is the following:

Ranged Attack Formula:
( ( 1 + ( ( 2 * DEX / 3 ) / 100 ) ) + MAS ) * ( LVL + EQA )

if you believe otherwise then please present it.

or a better way is to go on your account... switch in a gear that gives you some extra dex. take note of the dmg increase. and calculate the increase per dex that way. the range is generally in the 10-15 area... and i gave you the benefit of using the high end of the calculation.

edit: i am sure you didn't come up with that forumla yourself. you prob just got it form some guy some where. it might well be the most accepted forumla to calculate ranged dmg. but as long as there is no real proof behind it. i believe that my average joe way of testing dmg increase per dex will yield more tangable results.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

edit: i am sure you didn't come up with that forumla yourself. you prob just got it form some guy some where. it might well be the most accepted forumla to calculate ranged dmg. but as long as there is no real proof behind it. i believe that my average joe way of testing dmg increase per dex will yield more tangable results.

That formula is exact not some guess. The damage formula is well known. The benefit to total damage from each bit of dex is dependent on the damage of the weapon.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

That formula is exact not some guess. The damage formula is well known. The benefit to total damage from each bit of dex is dependent on the damage of the weapon.

that may be so. and i have seem the formula else where before. but here is the thing, i have no idea of who got it and how s/he got it. it sorta just pop out of no where as far as i am concerned. i am not going to make it complicated for myself and try to verify the formula when i can just click on some equipment and see the difference in dmg.

Quilue - Sanctuary

but the point is that the gap in damage varies based on your equipment attack; if you don't trust it, use this formula to calculate your own base damage and see for yourself.

17-18% more damage from having about 4/3 times the dex? just make a comparison of that formula with 1 side having 4/3 times the dex than the other and plot the ratios? the ratio should approach 17% at lvl 90. assuming some 300 dex from the vit archer and 400 dex from the dex archer, the ratio is about 17.7% at lvl 100.

and at lvl 100 a pure dex would surely have 401 dex minimum. ask Asterelle how much dex she has.

Olba - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

the extra damage that more dex gives is based on your weapon attack. it gives more as you refine more. the formula that i trust is the following:

Ranged Attack Formula:
( ( 1 + ( ( 2 * DEX / 3 ) / 100 ) ) + MAS ) * ( LVL + EQA )

if you believe otherwise then please present it.

Ah, personally I'm more interested in whether Critical Hits actually double the damage. If so, then you should add a final multiplier of 1+(crit%/200) to get the average increase per hit.

Also, unless you are looking for the maximum damage or range, you should use the average damage of the weapon instead of the maximum. After all, each amount of damage is equally likely and therefore the expected amount per hit is indeed the average.

17-18% more damage from having about 4/3 more dex?

You know, that would mean that you would have 7/3 or 2.3 TIMES the amount of dexterity. How the hell are you planning to do that?

that may be so. and i have seem the formula else where before. but here is the thing, i have no idea of who got it and how s/he got it. it sorta just pop out of no where as far as i am concerned. i am not going to make it complicated for myself and try to verify the formula when i can just click on some equipment and see the difference in dmg.

Ladies and Gents, we have ourselves a practical physicist! No one else would want to attempt to prove a theoretical model via empiric tests. Or to derive a theoretical formula from empiric tests.

And for the record, pwcalc has slight inaccuracies. I tested it by putting in my own character exactly as it was in-game and there was a slight difference in damage. Though that's probably just something minor like a truncation or so.

Legerity - Sanctuary

As a template:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1080b7e515009cc4

Dex build, +12 Lunar:
Phys Damage: 12287-15683
Dex: 420+40
HP: 5907
Vit: 3+28

Hybrid Build (100 into vit), +12 Lunar:
Phys Damage: 10586-13512
Dex: 320+40
HP: 7207
Vit: 103+28

Average of Dex = 13985
Average of Hybrid = 12049

Damage increase over Hybrid on average = ((13985/12049) - 1)*100 = 16.07% +- 0.5% error.

Since PWcalc is not 100% accurate, I can claim a 0.5% error on its behalf.

17-18% higher in damage output is realistic if we factor in the missing 5% crit too.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

And for the record, pwcalc has slight inaccuracies. I tested it by putting in my own character exactly as it was in-game and there was a slight difference in damage. Though that's probably just something minor like a truncation or so.

pwcalc doesnt quite get the rounding of the refinement bonus correct is often off by a point of HP or attack on a refined weapon or armor. This 1 point error in equipment is often multiplied by buffs or whatever so the final values is like 12 points off.

Still that formula doesnt only apply to pwcalc. I have plugged in values from my own gear and it comes out exact to what I see in the character sheet.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

As a template:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1080b7e515009cc4

Dex build, +12 Lunar:
Phys Damage: 12287-15683
Dex: 420+40
HP: 5907
Vit: 3+28

Hybrid Build (100 into vit), +12 Lunar:
Phys Damage: 10586-13512
Dex: 320+40
HP: 7207
Vit: 103+28

Average of Dex = 13985
Average of Hybrid = 12049

Damage increase over Hybrid on average = ((13985/12049) - 1)*100 = 16.07% +- 0.5% error.

Since PWcalc is not 100% accurate, I can claim a 0.5% error on its behalf.

17-18% higher in damage output is realistic if we factor in the missing 5% crit too.

oh come on... be realistic here. whats the point of taking close to extreme stat and use that as your arguement? if anyone have the money to +12 a weap. why would he put 100 pts in to vit? why not just put 30-40 in to str and wear the event helm and refine that for hp? you might as well say put enough dex to wear the bow and put everything else in to vit. and you do know that your self proclaimed 0.5% error rate can swing both ways right? so instead of pushing you closer to that magic 17%... it could push you the other way. and in your calculations, you are using the ring of heavenly lord to push up atk power. but in reality any archer who can afford the +12 lunar weap will be using the lunar ring (which has slightly lower atk power, but offer the extra crit %). there are also very few archers that can even wear the ranked chest. and for the archers that can afford it... quiet a few of them are forgoing the tt99 boot for the event shoes.
as far as i am concerned, realistically i doubt there will be more then 50 dex difference between any of the lvl 100 archers out there.

Legerity - Sanctuary

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

oh come on... be realistic here. whats the point of taking close to extreme stat and use that as your arguement? if anyone have the money to +12 a weap. why would he put 100 pts in to vit? why not just put 30-40 in to str and wear the event helm and refine that for hp? you might as well say put enough dex to wear the bow and put everything else in to vit. and you do know that your self proclaimed 0.5% error rate can swing both ways right? so instead of pushing you closer to that magic 17%... it could push you the other way. and in your calculations, you are using the ring of heavenly lord to push up atk power. but in reality any archer who can afford the +12 lunar weap will be using the lunar ring (which has slightly lower atk power, but offer the extra crit %). there are also very few archers that can even wear the ranked chest.
as far as i am concerned, realistically i doubt there will be more then 50 dex difference between any of the lvl 100 archers out there.

That's the same as you comparing a Hybrid Archer with +12 xbow to an average Dex Archer without a +12 weapon...

Dex is the hardest hitting stat build. Dex is in the damage formula. Vitality isn't.

I agree with you that Aluba hits hard, but come on, you're comparing apples and oranges here. It's his weapon that hits hard, not his build.

edit: I used that template because it was loaded on my PC already and all I needed to do was switch the refine levels... it was for simplicity.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's the same as you comparing a Hybrid Archer with +12 xbow to an average Dex Archer without a +12 weapon...

Dex is the hardest hitting stat build. Dex is in the damage formula. Vitality isn't.

I agree with you that Aluba hits hard, but come on, you're comparing apples and oranges here.

edit: I used that template because it was loaded on my PC already and all I needed to do was switch the refine levels... it was for simplicity.

here is the thing. i am sure i have more dex then that orange over there... but that does me little good when that orange is dropping me with 1 shot. you sorta have to compare apples to oranges when the damned apples are being crushed by the oranges. after a certain benchmark of dex has been reached, quiet a few archers would opt out of raising dex anymore and go for better equip that offer more hp.... why? because they feel that the extra dmg from that couple of extra dex isn't worth the extra hp/res that can be obtained by using diff gear or putting pts elsewhere.

edit: i am giving aluba the benefit of the doubt by saying that hes prob not a stupid person. if he think by going all dex and not wearing the event helm would be more benefinctial... he would prob do it. and yet he opt out of that extra dmg in favor of more hp. there gotta be a reason behind it all. and i believe its cause there is really no need to have that extra damage when you can have double the hp of any normal archer. if he can already drop you in one shot... does it really matter if he drop you with 6k or 7k dmg? NO. it matters that he can survive long enough to drop a few more guys.

Olba - Sanctuary

On a side note, I have a fail archer in my BH right now.

Evasion ornaments, Thundercrack, Genie Shins, P Atk ornaments (no +crit%). Oh, also, Frost Arrow lvl 1. Apparently, Frost Arrow lvl 1 is some "PvE spec build" or something. I managed to **** her off majorly when I told that she should get some crit rings, ditch the eva ornaments and get some crit rings.

Legerity - Sanctuary

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

here is the thing. i am sure i have more dex then that orange over there... but that does me little good when that orange is dropping me with 1 shot. you sorta have to compare apples to oranges when the damned apples are being crushed by the oranges. after a certain benchmark of dex has been reached, quiet a few archers would opt out of raising dex anymore and go for better equip that offer more hp.... why? because they feel that the extra dmg from that couple of extra dex isn't worth the extra hp/res that can be obtained by using diff gear or putting pts elsewhere.

edit: i am giving aluba the benefit of the doubt by saying that hes prob not a stupid person. if he think by going all dex and not wearing the event helm would be more benefinctial... he would prob do it. and yet he opt out of that extra dmg in favor of more hp. there gotta be a reason behind it all. and i believe its cause there is really no need to have that extra damage when you can have double the hp of any normal archer. if he can already drop you in one shot... does it really matter if he drop you with 6k or 7k dmg? NO. it matters that he can survive long enough to drop a few more guys.

I was responding to this:
"fyi for all your wannabe archers out there. the heaviest hitting archer on ht is no where near pure."

He's the hardest hitting Archer because of his bow. Not his stats. Someone then went to flame you that Hybrid doesn't hit harder than Dex builds do... and then 3 pages of discussion followed.

I'm not dicussing about him downing the average Dex build Archer. It's true that he will with that weapon, and it makes sense to push his stats into Vit with his sheer firepower. But his firepower is from his bow, not his build.

Again, Dex is in the damage formula, Vit isn't. This means that no matter what, Dex builds will always do more than a Hybrid build provided equipment are equal in refines.

Another way to put it is: If Aluba restated his Vit to Dex, would he do more damage?

Legerity - Sanctuary

Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

On a side note, I have a fail archer in my BH right now.

Evasion ornaments, Thundercrack, Genie Shins, P Atk ornaments (no +crit%). Oh, also, Frost Arrow lvl 1. Apparently, Frost Arrow lvl 1 is some "PvE spec build" or something. I managed to **** her off majorly when I told that she should get some crit rings, ditch the eva ornaments and get some crit rings.

I had eva orns until I was able to get the OHT belt and Skydemon's. Why? Double Dex modifiers. Otherwise eh... no reason to go eva orns. xD

Olba - Sanctuary

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

I had eva orns until I was able to get the OHT belt and Skydemon's. Why? Double Dex modifiers. Otherwise eh... no reason to go eva orns. xD

She's got dual vita and acc on the necklace and the belt is Mystical Realm Pendant.

Quilue - Sanctuary

that orange hit harder than the apple not because the orange has less dex than the apple, it's probably because the orange has a +12 orange seed while the apple only has a +8 appleseed. can we make that more clear? it's not because some other build can make you hit harder than pure dex, as you implied in "hardest hitting archer is not pure dex".

nobody said pure dex was the best build (ok Devoted did), we only assert that it's the hardest hitting build. also, it is very possible to have near pure dex base stats and also wear the event helm. possible now through the addition of super cape and hax tome. b:victory

Devoted - Lost City

Kiyoshi, I don't like your logic, everyone has a different preference. Some like more hp, some like more defense. There are arguments for both and it's nice that you are trying to help people but pvp wise, it's clear that dex is always better than vit. You can only refine 1 thing for damage and 6 things for hp. We aren't tanks, we kill stuff. Each dex adds up at 1.25 attacks a second. I'm not sure who you are fighting but with the people I pvp against I would love to do more damage; not have more hp.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Kiyoshi, I don't like your logic, everyone has a different preference. Some like more hp, some like more defense. There are arguments for both and it's nice that you are trying to help people but pvp wise, it's clear that dex is always better than vit. You can only refine 1 thing for damage and 6 things for hp. We aren't tanks, we kill stuff. Each dex adds up at 1.25 attacks a second. I'm not sure who you are fighting but with the people I pvp against I would love to do more damage; not have more hp.

here is the thing... people make it sound like going absolute pure dex is the only way to go. my point is a small divergent from the one track "pure dex" mind set would possibility yield a better overall character. when a sacrifice of small amount of dex that yield hundreds of hp is a well off sacrifice.

btw. i just checked. i don't have over 300 dex. i have over 400 dex... closer to 450. and i am not a pure dex archer. so the logic that a pure dex archer would do 17% more dmg, would require that said archer to have close to 600 dex. and i am pretty f-ing sure no archer in existence have that.

Quilue - Sanctuary

so if some pure dex can presumably get 550 dex with similar gear, still about 14% more base damage. count in 5% more crits, (assuming a pure dex still has 5% more crits than you)

the multiplier would be oh...

1.14*((x+0.05)*2+(1-(x+0.05)))
(x*2+(1-x))

so, what's your crit%? (correct please if above is wrong in attempting to take crits into account)

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

so if some pure dex can presumably get 550 dex with similar gear, still about 14% more base damage. count in 5% more crits, (assuming a pure dex still has 5% more crits than you)

the multiplier would be oh...

1.14*((x+0.05)*2+(1-(x+0.05)))
(x*2+(1-x))

so, what's your crit%? (correct please if above is wrong in attempting to take crits into account)

everyone start with base of 5 of each stat point, and at lvl 100, they'll have 500 more points. that makes a total of 520 base stat point. take off 3 for vit, take off 3 for mag, and 103 str for tt99 armor. that leaves 411 base dex.

411 dex base
9 dex from tt99 (rank 8 gives 8 dex max)
8 dex from rank 8 legs (tt99 gives no dex)
10 dex from event shoes (tt99 gives 9 dex max)
8 str to be restat in to dex from tt90 gold brace (but most ppl use tt99 brace that doesn't give dex)
7 dex from event cape
7 str to be restat in to dex from cape
8 str to be restat in to dex with sky demon neck
45 str to be restat in to dex with the 45 str event tome
17 dex from lunar bow

for a grand total of 530 dex, which is no where close to the 550 that you claim. now i am not sure where you "presumably get 550 dex", but i have yet to see a single archer with over 500 dex.

Quilue - Sanctuary

cuz you said you had almost 450...i'm just assuming vit build having 450, then pure dex having 550 at lvl 100, since the 17% - 18% more damage is referring to the gap in damage output of a pure dex build versus a vit build (strictly 3dex-1str-1vit)

if that's not what you have, then the gap i cited obviously doesn't apply to you. it'd be less. you know what i failed to define vit build clearly, so i'm sorry

Wolfgore - Heavens Tear

When i started this toon...it was an archer...

I kept putting all my points in vitality, though everyone was telling meh to put em on Dex...I wouldnt listen b:sad

One morning when i logged in teh game...i saw...i saw that i had FUR!! it was all over meh! Even my face!! b:shocked

I should have listened to the advices, Cause now i have to save all my body every day and hold lvl1 bow b:chuckle