so whats this age old BS about baning WF's for fb29/gouf?

thom

Lycanthropia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i never cheated. what for? this is a game lol

GM can check logs when they want.

i just wanna have an official answer. ticket sent -> no answer, and for several days.

so i hope they'll answer here, so everyone will have it.

thanks.

~Lycan

Oh well... Guess you should take your own advice of reading then and read the ToS very carefully.
It is clearly stated there. As you were clearly informed in your second thread where you asked about this.

I dont know why they didnt answer to you, but i always get a reply.

I can try to dig up a faq or something, before the servers even opened to CB, there was discussion and answers about those bugs and their exploiting, if i recall right.

Though all that is pointless since even ToS isn't enough for you it seems.

Lycanthropia - Heavens Tear

thom wrote: »

Oh well... Guess you should take your own advice of reading then and read the ToS very carefully.
It is clearly stated there. As you were clearly informed in your second thread where you asked about this.

I dont know why they didnt answer to you, but i always get a reply.

I can try to dig up a faq or something, before the servers even opened to CB, there was discussion and answers about those bugs and their exploiting, if i recall right.

Though all that is pointless since even ToS isn't enough for you it seems.

can you do it , please?

it will be great for me, and some of my friends.

thanks.

~Lycan

Venoblood - Heavens Tear

A glitch is a bug, a bug is a glitch. Stop referring to the two as separate actions, because it is one and the same whether or not you are abusing it. Better yet, stop trying to ease your way around the rules which are clearly written in English. If you can't read English, then you shouldn't even be playing this game probably.

thom

Lycanthropia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

can you do it , please?

it will be great for me, and some of my friends.

thanks.

~Lycan

As for the bugging of Gouf, we periodically check this area and give warnings to players not to exploit this boss. If we observe them ignoring our warnings, then we will banned them, as we have done so in the past.

Please understand that GMs cannot be everywhere at once. If you use the report hacker function then we will do our best to check it out as soon as possible.

Thats the email i got from GM's. All threads about this that you find by using search on forums, state same thing and mods usually tell you to post a ticket.

Lycanthropia - Heavens Tear

thanks

~Lycan

swiftlikeafox

Whoever told some of you people that air pets are not damaged by ground mobs(bosses included) is a liar.... the fact is that air pets will usually get owned by ground mobs of equal or higher lvl due to the fact they generally have less pdef and hp than ground pets..... i've also found that venos attacking strong ground mobs from the air isn't usually the best strategy as the system seems to sense that you are out of the mobs hitting range and will autoheal the mob faster than you can damage it.

And for those who think Venos have such a great advantage, why don't you try it sometime..... sure we can solo most mobs ONE AT A TIME, and can usually kill that ONE mob alot faster than most other classes......but agroing multiple mobs almost always means instant death unless you have a quick escape route planned..... we have no decent AOE.... and that's a GOOD thing because it would probably be detrimental to our health, we are literally NOTHING without our pets, if pet dies in most cases SO DO YOU, we don't really have any good buffs until later levels, our help is always asked to help kill strong bosses, yet we get left on the side of the road when it comes to US asking for help or for FB parties, I'm sure everyone is aware of our weaknesses in PvP and TW, infact many TW focused guilds have a higher level requirement for venos than for other classes, whatever leveling "advantages" we seem to possess at lower levels quickly fades to nearly nothing at higher levels when other classes are gaining cool AOE skills and developing their party support skills, we are usually stuck STILL soloing mobs ONE AT A TIME and killing at a much slower rate than before since the mobs have gotten tougher, without our summer sprint buff we are one of the slowest moving classes in the game.... waiting on a veno to catch up with you is like waiting on a snail!

Ohhh but we can tame pets, and we can craft useless "all class" pets and sell them to you fools for incredibly inflated prices and that makes it all worth it???? Let's take a moment to dissect that statement..... making those useless "all class" pets is incredibly DIFFICULT and EXPENSIVE..... try countless hours waiting at a rare spawn for your intended target to appear with countless other venos ready to snatch it before you can even get a lock on it, only for some fool barb, blademaster, or archer to casually wander through and kill it the second it pops up, and now imagine that you have to go through this same routine as much as 20 times or more before you finally have enough eggs to craft ONE pet....... and then imagine that you have to spend several hundred thousand of your own coin even after you gather all of the eggs to craft that useless pet...... and you actually have the NERVE to tell us that we're overpricing them?!?!?!

So venos are so easy to play and have such an advantage huh??? Why don't you try it yourself before making such stupid and rediculous statements.


EDIT: And yeah I do think a warning system is fair concerning the issue of "bug exploitation", since some may not even be aware that they are abusing a bug. and thankyou for clarifying that.

thom

swiftlikeafox wrote: »

Whoever told some of you people that air pets are not damaged by ground mobs(bosses included) is a liar.... the fact is that air pets will usually get owned by ground mobs of equal or higher lvl due to the fact they generally have less pdef and hp than ground pets..... i've also found that venos attacking strong ground mobs from the air isn't usually the best strategy as the system seems to sense that you are out of the mobs hitting range and will autoheal the mob faster than you can damage it.

And for those who think Venos have such a great advantage, why don't you try it sometime..... sure we can solo most mobs ONE AT A TIME, and can usually kill that ONE mob alot faster than most other classes......but agroing multiple mobs almost always means instant death unless you have a quick escape route planned..... we have no decent AOE.... and that's a GOOD thing because it would probably be detrimental to our health, we are literally NOTHING without our pets, if pet dies in most cases SO DO YOU, we don't really have any good buffs until later levels, our help is always asked to help kill strong bosses, yet we get left on the side of the road when it comes to US asking for help or for FB parties, I'm sure everyone is aware of our weaknesses in PvP and TW, infact many TW focused guilds have a higher level requirement for venos than for other classes, whatever leveling "advantages" we seem to possess at lower levels quickly fades to nearly nothing at higher levels when other classes are gaining cool AOE skills and developing their party support skills, we are usually stuck STILL soloing mobs ONE AT A TIME and killing at a much slower rate than before since the mobs have gotten tougher, without our summer sprint buff we are one of the slowest moving classes in the game.... waiting on a veno to catch up with you is like waiting on a snail!

Ohhh but we can tame pets, and we can craft useless "all class" pets and sell them to you fools for incredibly inflated prices and that makes it all worth it???? Let's take a moment to dissect that statement..... making those useless "all class" pets is incredibly DIFFICULT and EXPENSIVE..... try countless hours waiting at a rare spawn for your intended target to appear with countless other venos ready to snatch it before you can even get a lock on it, only for some fool barb, blademaster, or archer to casually wander through and kill it the second it pops up, and now imagine that you have to go through this same routine as much as 20 times or more before you finally have enough eggs to craft ONE pet....... and then imagine that you have to spend several hundred thousand of your own coin even after you gather all of the eggs to craft that useless pet...... and you actually have the NERVE to tell us that we're overpricing them?!?!?!

So venos are so easy to play and have such an advantage huh??? Why don't you try it yourself before making such stupid and rediculous statements.


EDIT: And yeah I do think a warning system is fair concerning the issue of "bug exploitation", since some may not even be aware that they are abusing a bug. and thankyou for clarifying that.

You went a lot off topic there. this was about bug exploiting and getting bans for it.

Yeah they warn first and ban then, but by now everyone should know about it allready or read the ToS, if common sense isn't enough to tell that a boss standing there,never hitting back is not how it is designed to be.

Faction Leaders should make this clear for their members too. That way there is no "accidents".

swiftlikeafox

thom wrote: »

You went a lot off topic there. this was about bug exploiting and getting bans for it.

Yeah they warn first and ban then, but by now everyone should know about it allready or read the ToS, if common sense isn't enough to tell that a boss standing there,never hitting back is not how it is designed to be.

Yes i did go off topic, however I'm not the one who originally took it there..... I was responding to some of the other comments made in this thread.

And many things in this game are not as they are desinged to be, one can easily come to accept them as a normal part of gameplay, especially when they see other players doing the same thing, or discover it on thier own by accident and decide that bug or no bug the quest still says they have to kill this or that mob, so why not take advantage of the opportunity that has presented itself????

thom

swiftlikeafox wrote: »

Yes i did go off topic, however I'm not the one who originally took it there..... I was responding to some of the other comments made in this thread.

And many things in this game are not as they are desinged to be, one can easily come to accept them as a normal part of gameplay, especially when they see other players doing the same thing, or discover it on thier own by accident and decide that bug or no bug the quest still says they have to kill this or that mob, so why not take advantage of the opportunity that has presented itself????

Because it is cheating and exploiting a bug. Quite simply. Its not the GM's fault people dont read forums or check the ToS and try to get the easy way out.
Also not GM's fault that people exploit this and most don't even seem to try any other way,even if they know its bannable offence.

And you do get a warning on first offence.

Written on rules that GM's enforce.

Spread the word around yourself so there wont be people unknowingly banned for exploiting this, though most are doing it deliberately.

If you are unsure about something, post a ticket through the support page here: Support

Blancheneige - Heavens Tear

thom wrote: »

Go here: Support

Post a ticket to GM's and ask yourself, instead of trying to justify your cheating.

First they warn then they ban. Thats the info they told me.

I got my answers from them. And it is clearly stated on ToS too.

Never heard of an archer beign warned and/or banned for glitching in zhen party.

Why should it be different for Venos glitching monsters?

thom

Blancheneige - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Never heard of an archer beign warned and/or banned for glitching in zhen party.

Why should it be different for Venos glitching monsters?

Post a ticket through support and ask. Believe it or not, GM's do what they can to prevent cheating.
Pointless for anyone to try to explain it if you dont understand what is exploiting a bug.

Never played archer,so cant say anything about that glitch.

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear

TOS:

(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players

I love how the mod in the other post said the tos is VERY clear. I don't quite get the "to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players" part.

Also it has to be noted how the archer glitch DOES gain a massive unfair advantage but no one would dare ban somone for that.

swiftlikeafox

thom wrote: »

Because it is cheating and exploiting a bug. Quite simply. Its not the GM's fault people dont read forums or check the ToS and try to get the easy way out.
Also not GM's fault that people exploit this and most don't even seem to try any other way,even if they know its bannable offence.

And you do get a warning on first offence.

Written on rules that GM's enforce.

Spread the word around yourself so there wont be people unknowingly banned for exploiting this, though most are doing it deliberately.

If you are unsure about something, post a ticket through the support page here: Support

I'm pretty sure that dismounting and dropping out of the sky after aggroing too many air mobs or jumping into the nearest lake after aggroing too many land mobs were not intentional design features either..... yet you'd be a complete idiot not to, what are you going to do just stand there and let them kill you and lose your hard earned exp??? Or perhaps you're some kinda fool who would stand there and shout "They can take our lives, but they can never take our FREEDOMMMMM!!!!" all the while 5 or 6 mobs are brutally pounding the **** out of you????

You call it "cheating" and if the person in question is aware that what they are doing is in violation of the rules then you'd be correct, however if that's not the case then it's just playing smart..... a SMART player continually searches for the easiest and least painfull or least frustrating method of accomplishing any given task, and incorporating that as part of his or her strategy, and it does not present an unfair advantage because other players can learn from him or her and adopt it as their own, but not everyone has the time to continually search the forums or email GMs to find out if what they just did was in violation of any rules..... and what would be the point??? If you discovered it by already having done it, then you have already violated it and are therefore already subject to whatever punishment is attached to it, what kind of moron goes around asking "I think I just did a bad thing.... can you tell me if what i done was wrong????", and I for one find it highly hypocritical for anyone here to bambast players for "exploiting a bug", when they themseleves are most likely guilty of several exploitations of flaws in the game system themselves..... or are they telling us.... well THOSE flaws are OK to exploit.... just as long as you don't exploit THIS one..... those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! It's for this reason that I feel a warning system is the ONLY fair way of dealing with "bug exploitation", those who continually ignore the warnings should of course be punished, but beyond that, how are we supposed to know if the flaws we're exploiting are of the acceptable or the unacceptable kind?????

As a side note..... I wonder how many of the people who were able to purchase a halloween grabbag for 10K due to an appearent glitch on Lost City server will be warned??????

thom

swiftlikeafox wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that dismounting and dropping out of the sky after aggroing too many air mobs or jumping into the nearest lake after aggroing too many land mobs were not intentional design features either..... yet you'd be a complete idiot not to, what are you going to do just stand there and let them kill you and lose your hard earned exp??? Or perhaps you're some kinda fool who would stand there and shout "They can take our lives, but they can never take our FREEDOMMMMM!!!!" all the while 5 or 6 mobs are brutally pounding the **** out of you????

You call it "cheating" and if the person in question is aware that what they are doing is in violation of the rules then you'd be correct, however if that's not the case then it's just playing smart..... a SMART player continually searches for the easiest and least painfull or least frustrating method of accomplishing any given task, and incorporating that as part of his or her strategy, and it does not present an unfair advantage because other players can learn from him or her and adopt it as their own, but not everyone has the time to continually search the forums or email GMs to find out if what they just did was in violation of any rules..... and what would be the point??? If you discovered it by already having done it, then you have already violated it and are therefore already subject to whatever punishment is attached to it, what kind of moron goes around asking "I think I just did a bad thing.... can you tell me if what i done was wrong????", and I for one find it highly hypocritical for anyone here to bambast players for "exploiting a bug", when they themseleves are most likely guilty of several exploitations of flaws in the game system themselves..... or are they telling us.... well THOSE flaws are OK to exploit.... just as long as you don't exploit THIS one..... those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! It's for this reason that I feel a warning system is the ONLY fair way of dealing with "bug exploitation", those who continually ignore the warnings should of course be punished, but beyond that, how are we supposed to know if the flaws we're exploiting are of the acceptable or the unacceptable kind?????

As a side note..... I wonder how many of the people who were able to purchase a halloween grabbag for 10K due to an appearent glitch on Lost City server will be warned??????

Hmmm since when it was a glitch that land monsters cant enter water and vice versa? Lol...
Same goes with dropping fast... Those have never been mentioned as glitches and looks to be designed that way.

Yes, for those who arent aware and cant figure out that boss never hitting back isnt a bug,there is the warning system for first time.

Yes, smart player searches always a better way to deal with the game, within its limits and rules. Sad reality just is usually this: People cheat if its faster and usually a lot easier too and those ways most often are breaking the rules.

Exploiting Gouf for example,Has been said to be a bug and bannable offence if repeated.
For people who don't read forums, they have the warn first, ban then system.

And really, its the responsibility of every player who knows about that bug, to tell people its a bannable offence. Gm's can do only so much, its the community who needs to do the rest.

You can try to justify it to yourself in any way you want to, it still wont change the fact that this one is exploiting a bug and bannable offence.

For those who really do it accidentally, there is the warning for first offence. After that its ban as it should be.

And just for your information, I dont cheat. Never have and never will. There's no point in game if you need to cheat. And yes, i can take 5mins to ask for a confirmation if i think something is a bug.You dont need to be a rocket scientist to know what is bug and what is not.

Also there is just few of these bugs and they are widely known,at least on Lost City server.

Blancheneige - Heavens Tear

thom wrote: »

And just for your information, I dont cheat. Never have and never will. .

Meaning you'll never go in a zhen party with an archer glitching it? b:chuckle

thom

Blancheneige - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Meaning you'll never go in a zhen party with an archer glitching it? b:chuckle

Yep, if GM's say its exploiting a bug and against rules. Guess i ask them. I can level just fine without any zhen party.

Time isnt a matter to me.

Venoblood - Heavens Tear

Blancheneige - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Meaning you'll never go in a zhen party with an archer glitching it? b:chuckle

Would be kind of stupid to, considering everyone in the party is penalized if even one person glitched....if one person glitched the entire party is teleported, or so I hear. That means the entire run would've been a waste of time, money, pots, and skills/health/mana.

Twilyte - Heavens Tear

Okay, my curiosity is piqued. I played on other versions for about a year and never once zehn'd (always seemed like a great waste of money to me), so I have no idea what this archer bug/glitch thing is.

If it is something that goes along the same lines as the Veno/Gouf glitch (ie..being able to kill a mob without the possibility of you or your pet taking damage), then by all means, make noise about it. The staff has made it clear they want a clean and fair game being run and people who knowingly circumnavigate the intended game mechanics will face punishment.

I am not on a "witch hunt" against Venos. My best in game friend uses a Veno as his main and while we will both come help people stuck on the Gouf quest, we will also both leave a party if they ask any Veno (him or another) to bug Gouf.

Bug abusers, however, I do report, regardless of class (or lack there-of sometimes!)

One problem with reporting the zehn glitch, without even knowing what it is, I think is that EVERYONE had to do Gouf at a relatively low level. So everyone had the possibility of being exposed to, at least in topical conversation, the Veno/Gouf issue. Not everyone zehns, mostly vets from other versions and those who have learned it from vets from other versions. And zehning, if I remember from what I heard, occurs mostly after level 60, thus reducing all the players who might quit before then since quests drop off before that.

But, like I said, if it is bug abuse, by all means, find them, take screenies if possible, and alert the staff about it (perferably while they are doing it). Don't bother getting into an in-game debate with someone doing it because then they might stop before "the game police" arrive, thus making it harder to prove. Just quietly observe, document, and report.

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear

The archer skill works like this, you target a mob and start the skill.. The skill will continue to do aoe dmg from the point of origin(the mob you target) until the mob dies or ur mana dies.

The "exploit": you duel a another player and shoot that player till hes about 10% hp, then use the the AOE skill to deliver the killing blow, however the skill doesnt stop there it keeps going on(provided you have a mp charm). Now a priest starts a blue bubble and everyone starts luring mobs and everyone gets tons and TONS of exp.

Don't get me wrong, my initial reason for bringing this up was to point out that in comaprison to the aboe mentioned exploit the killing of 3 bosses int he entire careeer of a veno in order to complete quests is so isignificat that is laughable that anyone would get banned for it.
Lets see :gouf/oggo/kimsha is the 3 boses in question. Two of those are culti quests and the 3rd some regular quest. Total exp gained : about 200-300 per kill and then 5-10k for the quest completion on kimsha, if we add the culti rewards, lets say uhm max 50k exp gained in the entire careeer of a veno from 1-105 with "exploits"
Total exp gained by a whole f-ing party uising the archer exploit: from lvl 60-70 a levelup about every 45-60mins.

Now back to the original issue, you witchunters with your little PW-bibles under your arms run around the world branding venos as some kinda pagans destroying your holy PW and not playing the game corectly(from YOUR point of view). Right infront of your eyes there are exploits that are a MIlLION times "worse" yet you don't complain about that because those are the ones that benefit YOU!

Let me paste again cos everyone just read swifts wall of text and ignored me:
THIS is the TOS:
(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players.

Now I ask again, whos ganing the UNFAIR advantage here exactly? venos or archers.

Also the TOS doesnt say: "Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws" notice the little extra bit where it sais "to gain an unfair advantage".
It makes me sick how ppl can be so uninformed and defend their stance even tho they have no ground to stand on and didint even spend 5mins to actually think it thru before they just start to victimize somone for unjust reasons.

Kyou - Heavens Tear

Tho why would they have anything against Zhen parties (archer)? MP hiero is a must.
It brings them money.

Veno doesn't.

thom

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The archer skill works like this, you target a mob and start the skill.. The skill will continue to do aoe dmg from the point of origin(the mob you target) until the mob dies or ur mana dies.

The "exploit": you duel a another player and shoot that player till hes about 10% hp, then use the the AOE skill to deliver the killing blow, however the skill doesnt stop there it keeps going on(provided you have a mp charm). Now a priest starts a blue bubble and everyone starts luring mobs and everyone gets tons and TONS of exp.

Don't get me wrong, my initial reason for bringing this up was to point out that in comaprison to the aboe mentioned exploit the killing of 3 bosses int he entire careeer of a veno in order to complete quests is so isignificat that is laughable that anyone would get banned for it.
Lets see :gouf/oggo/kimsha is the 3 boses in question. Two of those are culti quests and the 3rd some regular quest. Total exp gained : about 200-300 per kill and then 5-10k for the quest completion on kimsha, if we add the culti rewards, lets say uhm max 50k exp gained in the entire careeer of a veno from 1-105 with "exploits"
Total exp gained by a whole f-ing party uising the archer exploit: from lvl 60-70 a levelup about every 45-60mins.

Now back to the original issue, you witchunters with your little PW-bibles under your arms run around the world branding venos as some kinda pagans destroying your holy PW and not playing the game corectly(from YOUR point of view). Right infront of your eyes there are exploits that are a MIlLION times "worse" yet you don't complain about that because those are the ones that benefit YOU!

Let me paste again cos everyone just read swifts wall of text and ignored me:
THIS is the TOS:
(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players.

Now I ask again, whos ganing the UNFAIR advantage here exactly? venos or archers.

Also the TOS doesnt say: "Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws" notice the little extra bit where it sais "to gain an unfair advantage".
It makes me sick how ppl can be so uninformed and defend their stance even tho they have no ground to stand on and didint even spend 5mins to actually think it thru before they just start to victimize somone for unjust reasons.

Sounds like a real bug to me which GM's should be watching out for and banning people then.

You do report people for these then?

you are now forgetting that it isn't about how much advantage someone gets out of these. That was never the question.

The question in hand is that these are exploits and GM's have informed they handle them as such.

Doesnt matter what little advantage you get or not, and i do believe its up to GM's to think about that anyway,not us. And well, you cant get any new skills if you cant kill these bosses, so yea, it is an advantage. Unfair because not everyone can do it,or know about it,so warn&ban.

Its a bug, and using it is exploiting. Simple as that and nothing more. You can debate does it give unfair advantage or not, it doesn't matter.

Twilyte - Heavens Tear

Thanks for explaining the archer thing, Smex. I agree that any attack that starts during a duel, should terminate when the duel is done. Let's hope that they can put some sort of check flag in the dueling system to correct this "over sight".

I think what people are defining as an "unfair" advantage that venos enjoy with the "Gouf" issue is that no other class can defeat mob bosses in complete safety (ie..no risk of harm). Sure, it can be argued that they can get a veno to join the party and perform the same "over sight" (and I call it an oversight because the staff has commented that it is a bug, I just can't find the thread anymore and my eyes started crossing reading all of Xar's and Dvor's posts searching!) But, then again, it requires the "compassion" of a willing veno to join a group to assist in this manner, where as, a veno does not need anyone to perform said "over sight".

Look, as with any topic of debate posted on the internet, people will inevitably take both sides of the arguement. Let's face it, the only thing people agree on is that we disagree...lol.

If they fix the Gouf thing, then this is a moot point. Regardless of what others have posted, Gouf can be done normally, with out the help of "uber" high levels. So it won't change anything. People will adapt, defeat it, and move on. They chose not to "learn" alternative ways to do it now because they have a "cheap" way of doing it.

And I do say, fix the Archer array bug. They will still make money because the only difference then is that the Archers won't be able to go afk during the parties (like the others with arrays). Whoop-dee-frickin do. So more players will actually have to play instead of sleep walking their way through exp. Wow. What a novel concept.

I just want one thing explained to me. Why, in Archosaur south-west, is the female Elf trainer named Lou, and the male Elf trainer named Jen!! b:shocked

thom

Twilyte - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Thanks for explaining the archer thing, Smex. I agree that any attack that starts during a duel, should terminate when the duel is done. Let's hope that they can put some sort of check flag in the dueling system to correct this "over sight".

I think what people are defining as an "unfair" advantage that venos enjoy with the "Gouf" issue is that no other class can defeat mob bosses in complete safety (ie..no risk of harm). Sure, it can be argued that they can get a veno to join the party and perform the same "over sight" (and I call it an oversight because the staff has commented that it is a bug, I just can't find the thread anymore and my eyes started crossing reading all of Xar's and Dvor's posts searching!) But, then again, it requires the "compassion" of a willing veno to join a group to assist in this manner, where as, a veno does not need anyone to perform said "over sight".

Look, as with any topic of debate posted on the internet, people will inevitably take both sides of the arguement. Let's face it, the only thing people agree on is that we disagree...lol.

If they fix the Gouf thing, then this is a moot point. Regardless of what others have posted, Gouf can be done normally, with out the help of "uber" high levels. So it won't change anything. People will adapt, defeat it, and move on. They chose not to "learn" alternative ways to do it now because they have a "cheap" way of doing it.

And I do say, fix the Archer array bug. They will still make money because the only difference then is that the Archers won't be able to go afk during the parties (like the others with arrays). Whoop-dee-frickin do. So more players will actually have to play instead of sleep walking their way through exp. Wow. What a novel concept.

I just want one thing explained to me. Why, in Archosaur south-west, is the female Elf trainer named Lou, and the male Elf trainer named Jen!! b:shocked

Exactly, best way to handle this would be just to fix the bug.
But before the dev's get to that, GM's have said its an exploit and handled as such.

Yeah, killed Gouf first time with a party of 3 people, lvl49's, its actually really easy boss to kill,no bug exploiting needed.

I very much agree with that archer skill array, it should be fixed asap and while waiting that, handle it like you are handlind Gouf bugging.

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear

NO LETS FREAKING NOT. whats the difference if a party does it or a veno does.. its 0.0000000000000000001% of the gaming content and ultimately makes no difference to anyone whatsoever.

The game is about 6 years old and those are "features" not bugs. Archer zhen is one of only 2 ways to zen (other being legit squishy mages that die to easy) and its just how things work. They havent been fix now and they NEVER will be, devs know about it, they did what any sensible person would do "does it unbalace/destroy the gaming experience as a whole.. nope. Ok fine then leave them be"

Stop crying over "abuse" and "exploits" when its just the way things work. You are like mormons that walk to everyones houses and go "have u given ur heart to Jesus" always watching and spying on other ppl to do something wrong. Why are you trying so hard to get everyone? in the process u'll destroy the game.

thom

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear wrote: »

NO LETS FREAKING NOT. whats the difference if a party does it or a veno does.. its 0.0000000000000000001% of the gaming content and ultimately makes no difference to anyone whatsoever.

The game is about 6 years old and those are "features" not bugs. Archer zhen is one of only 2 ways to zen (other being legit squishy mages that die to easy) and its just how things work. They havent been fix now and they NEVER will be, devs know about it, they did what any sensible person would do "does it unbalace/destroy the gaming experience as a whole.. nope. Ok fine then leave them be"

Stop crying over "abuse" and "exploits" when its just the way things work. You are like mormons that walk to everyones houses and go "have u given ur heart to Jesus" always watching and spying on other ppl to do something wrong. Why are you trying so hard to get everyone? in the process u'll destroy the game.

Hehe well all that you said just there, is up to GM's to decide. Not us.
They decided they are bugs.

So you have talked to the Devs about this? No? thought so.

Yes they have been left unfixed for a way too long time, but i really want to see where they say they are now features, please post a link to where you got that information.

I rather believe the GM's when they say they are bugs and handled as such.

What destroys games is GM's letting people get away with any kind of cheat or bug exploit. Enforcing rules equally on those for everyone, however, never has killed any game. Actually its the opposite.

Meelan - Heavens Tear

swiftlikeafox wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that dismounting and dropping out of the sky after aggroing too many air mobs or jumping into the nearest lake after aggroing too many land mobs were not intentional design features either..... yet you'd be a complete idiot not to, what are you going to do just stand there and let them kill you and lose your hard earned exp??? Or perhaps you're some kinda fool who would stand there and shout "They can take our lives, but they can never take our FREEDOMMMMM!!!!" all the while 5 or 6 mobs are brutally pounding the **** out of you????

You call it "cheating" and if the person in question is aware that what they are doing is in violation of the rules then you'd be correct, however if that's not the case then it's just playing smart..... a SMART player continually searches for the easiest and least painfull or least frustrating method of accomplishing any given task, and incorporating that as part of his or her strategy, and it does not present an unfair advantage because other players can learn from him or her and adopt it as their own, but not everyone has the time to continually search the forums or email GMs to find out if what they just did was in violation of any rules..... and what would be the point??? If you discovered it by already having done it, then you have already violated it and are therefore already subject to whatever punishment is attached to it, what kind of moron goes around asking "I think I just did a bad thing.... can you tell me if what i done was wrong????", and I for one find it highly hypocritical for anyone here to bambast players for "exploiting a bug", when they themseleves are most likely guilty of several exploitations of flaws in the game system themselves..... or are they telling us.... well THOSE flaws are OK to exploit.... just as long as you don't exploit THIS one..... those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! It's for this reason that I feel a warning system is the ONLY fair way of dealing with "bug exploitation", those who continually ignore the warnings should of course be punished, but beyond that, how are we supposed to know if the flaws we're exploiting are of the acceptable or the unacceptable kind?????

As a side note..... I wonder how many of the people who were able to purchase a halloween grabbag for 10K due to an appearent glitch on Lost City server will be warned??????

Well said...i agree with you completely!!!!! b:victory I for one am new to the game and have depended on others who have played before to explain things to me. If they show me how to do something and its the result of a glitch but neglect to tell me its a glitch i'm going on faith that its a normal part of the game. How would it be my fault? Its not like there is a ready list of glitches that says to newbs...hey..this is a glitch and a bad thing so don't use it. The only way for us to know if its a bad thing (because no one in the game has ever told me what was a glitch and what was normal) is to put some kind of warning or fix the glitch. I for one have no clue what they are. I just play the game and if i have a question i ask someone...i've never had someone say to me.."you can do this or that and by the way its a glitch". If the powers that be don't feel it necessary to give a warning so you know its bad or don't take the time to fix the glitch then it must be ok with them to use it. Just an old womans opinion.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Meelan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well said...i agree with you completely!!!!! b:victory I for one am new to the game and have depended on others who have played before to explain things to me. If they show me how to do something and its the result of a glitch but neglect to tell me its a glitch i'm going on faith that its a normal part of the game. How would it be my fault? Its not like there is a ready list of glitches that says to newbs...hey..this is a glitch and a bad thing so don't use it. The only way for us to know if its a bad thing (because no one in the game has ever told me what was a glitch and what was normal) is to put some kind of warning or fix the glitch. I for one have no clue what they are. I just play the game and if i have a question i ask someone...i've never had someone say to me.."you can do this or that and by the way its a glitch". If the powers that be don't feel it necessary to give a warning so you know its bad or don't take the time to fix the glitch then it must be ok with them to use it. Just an old womans opinion.

The thing here is that when you run into a glitch its OBVIOUS. Anyone can tell just by looking. If that boss isn't fighting back as you beat it up, you KNOW something is wrong. (unless its kun kun) If you pull a boss through a wall and bypass half a dungeon you know its wrong.

Common sense tells you what is a bug. Think for once people.b:angry

Meelan - Heavens Tear

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The thing here is that when you run into a glitch its OBVIOUS. Anyone can tell just by looking. If that boss isn't fighting back as you beat it up, you KNOW something is wrong. (unless its kun kun) If you pull a boss through a wall and bypass half a dungeon you know its wrong.

Common sense tells you what is a bug. Think for once people.b:angry

I wasn't talking about the obvious ones (bosses)....i was talking about the whole lure thing....i'm hearing in the forums that singling out a particular monster in a group and luring it to you so you can fight them one at a time is a glitch. Some one tried to tell me thats how a veno works..then i hear ppl in here complaing about it so i don't do it..if i see a big group i just avoid them so it limits what i can do. I would never knowingly use a glitch. But in those cases where its not obvious (again i'm not talking about bosses i'm talking about game play in general) if an experienced player is teaching you to play your char and they don't come out and say...heres a glitch you can use, how would you know its a glitch? I had someone tell me in a fb tell me to do the lure for killing one monster at a time to clear them out. It wasn't said to use on boss..just for clearing the mobs to get to the boss..but now i see ppl complain that venos have some kind of advantage and thats just plain bs. I could in no way take on an instance alone..i don't come close to having the defense for it but so many are so ready to condemn the veno its difficult to even get on a squad anymore. I'm sitting here with a full quest list i can't do because i certainly can't do them alone and getting on a squad is nearly impossible because you get lumped into a group of undesirables. Because they see some ppl exploit the glitches they just assume that you all do and thats just not true. I have no desire to break any game rules..i simply want to play the game the way it was intended but find it impossible to continue. I am lvl 58 and still haven't completed some of my quests from my lvl 40s and early 50's because i can't do them alone and i can't get on a squad because i'm a veno and i'm finding veno's in the game are seen to have some kind of plague. Don't lump the players who simply want to play the game correctly in with those who would exploit the glitches slimply because of the class we chose. I just want to play the darn game. I help ppl out with their quests and would like the same in return. Its as simple as that. I still need gouf ..and several other bosses i can't take alone...and i have no intention of using a glitch to do them. I just simply would like the help of a squad to get these completed the normal way. I just want to be able to do those quests and not have to be lvl 80 first so i can do them myself. b:angry

Onishi - Heavens Tear

Meelan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wasn't talking about the obvious ones (bosses)....i was talking about the whole lure thing....i'm hearing in the forums that singling out a particular monster in a group and luring it to you so you can fight them one at a time is a glitch. Some one tried to tell me thats how a veno works..then i hear ppl in here complaing about it so i don't do it..if i see a big group i just avoid them so it limits what i can do. I would never knowingly use a glitch. But in those cases where its not obvious (again i'm not talking about bosses i'm talking about game play in general) if an experienced player is teaching you to play your char and they don't come out and say...heres a glitch you can use, how would you know its a glitch? I had someone tell me in a fb tell me to do the lure for killing one monster at a time to clear them out. It wasn't said to use on boss..just for clearing the mobs to get to the boss..but now i see ppl complain that venos have some kind of advantage and thats just plain bs. I could in no way take on an instance alone..i don't come close to having the defense for it but so many are so ready to condemn the veno its difficult to even get on a squad anymore. I'm sitting here with a full quest list i can't do because i certainly can't do them alone and getting on a squad is nearly impossible because you get lumped into a group of undesirables. Because they see some ppl exploit the glitches they just assume that you all do and thats just not true. I have no desire to break any game rules..i simply want to play the game the way it was intended but find it impossible to continue. I am lvl 58 and still haven't completed some of my quests from my lvl 40s and early 50's because i can't do them alone and i can't get on a squad because i'm a veno and i'm finding veno's in the game are seen to have some kind of plague. Don't lump the players who simply want to play the game correctly in with those who would exploit the glitches slimply because of the class we chose. I just want to play the darn game. I help ppl out with their quests and would like the same in return. Its as simple as that. I still need gouf ..and several other bosses i can't take alone...and i have no intention of using a glitch to do them. I just simply would like the help of a squad to get these completed the normal way. I just want to be able to do those quests and not have to be lvl 80 first so i can do them myself. b:angry

Not quite sure what you mean by veno's having a plague. Almost every FB run I am in has at least 2 veno's, usually have at least 1-2 veno's on every boss run I've ever done. Only reason I can think of that a veno might have trouble finding a party, might be similar to how hunters were in WoW. They are overpopulated to the point where every party already has at least 2 of them already, and needs the remaining spots for the essential 2 classes (barbarian and cleric).

Twilyte - Heavens Tear

Meelan, the admins have stated that luring IS part of the veno's arsenal, and is working as designed.

However, luring through a closed door (as in fb29 boss area) or a wall is not part of the design, and they have stated that.

Look, Smex, you yourself pointed out, and I quote:

The archer skill works like this, you target a mob and start the skill.. The skill will continue to do aoe dmg from the point of origin(the mob you target) until the mob dies or ur mana dies.

The "exploit": you duel a another player and shoot that player till hes about 10% hp, then use the the AOE skill to deliver the killing blow, however the skill doesnt stop there it keeps going on(provided you have a mp charm).

Then you come back screaming that they shouldn't fix it.

NO LETS FREAKING NOT....Archer zhen is one of only 2 ways to zen (other being legit squishy mages that die to easy) and its just how things work.

You yourself say there is a legit way to do it, but it is more challenging because....here's the part everyone seems to hate....there is the risk of dying!

You argue that they shouldn't fix the veno w/ flying pet bug by pointing out they haven't fixed the archer/zehn bug.

Fine. Fix both bugs. But, as I stated before, everyone has their own priorities and depending on what those priorities are usually dictates their views on subjects such as these

If a character's skill is supposed to end when a mob dies, but they find a way around that by getting into a duel, that's finding a way around the intended game mechanics.

If mobs are supposed to have a fighting chance against all characters or heal fully if they can't hit or auto-path to the character, but players find a way to prevent mobs from attacking by using flying pets, then that's finding a way around the intended game mechanics.

You also said it's such a small portion of gameplay so that they might as well leave it in (referring to the veno issue). The same can be said that if it's not that important, why worry about it if they do fix it? Like you said, it's such a small part of gameplay. It's not like it will cripple venos.

We can rant back and forth continually. You are actually very civil in your points unlike many others that feel so strongly about subjects. I enjoy a good intellectual conversation, point for point. Unfortunately, no matter how strongly we feel on either side of this subject, ultimately, we need a CURRENT "official" word. ( I am starting to wonder if the old threads are hard to find because of the avatar changes or if they were deleted due to flames! I will post if I find them though b:laugh )