Class Nerfs?

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jsxshadow

aradya6793 wrote: »

but we can work around that f.e. by removing defense charms or perhaps remove just elemental damage defense charms, that would be a proper nerf ​​

Well...when g17.5 is meta..the guys caught in a storms vortex that are getting zerkcritted from deity psys/Storms/Wizards will definitly disagree ;DD

lonesbank

jsxshadow wrote: »

a storms vortex

This is still the only thing that sounds unfair/OP to me in that whole sentence

jsxshadow

lonesbank wrote: »

jsxshadow wrote: »

a storms vortex

This is still the only thing that sounds unfair/OP to me in that whole sentence

No, it's not OP. You can get out of the vortex. Something that can be avoided/negated isnt OP nor unfair. Stuff you can do nothing about is OP/unfair.

dingo488

jsxshadow wrote: »

No, it's not OP. You can get out of the vortex. Something that can be avoided/negated isnt OP nor unfair. Stuff you can do nothing about is OP/unfair.

You have an interesting definition of OP

I wonder why they nerf certain weapons in CS:GO, it's not like you can't kill people that use them.
I wonder why they nerf certain heroes in Overwatch, it's not like you can't beat them.
I wonder why they nerf certain champions in LoL, it's not like you can't beat them.
I wonder why they nerf certain cards in HS, it's not like you can't beat them.

Oo, right, its cuz they are too oppressive and wipe out all other alternatives, and are overall unhealthy for the game because it makes for a bad gameplay experience, because their power level is too high...you know, overpowered.

Lets see, a single ability that costs 1 spark that makes a 12x12m area (144m2) or even a 15x15m area (right?) completely unplayable for the next 12 seconds, with a cooldown as low as 30 seconds (thats 40% uptime). Ye...

''that doesn't sound oppressive at all. That's clearly on the same power level as other crowd control abilities in the game.''
- Stormbringers

Surely its just a coincidence that a Duskblade, who can steal 1 skill from any of the 12 classes, ALWAYS chooses to steal Vortex above all 11 alternatives in mass PvP...

''Mass PvP has not felt the same since this class came out, and has taken a massive turn for the worse due to the oppressive nature of this single skill.''
- Me


A pointless hypothetical but if PWI came with an expansion tomorrow and allowed every class to choose a skill from another class, any skill (minus weapon requirements ofc). I'm willing to bet that at least 90-95% of the ppl that mainly focus on TW/xTW would pick either vortex itself, or probably more commonly a skill that synergizes with vortex extremely well. Because we don't even need that many more vortexes, it already completely dictates the way mass PvP works, just 1 single skill, and yes you can ''avoid it'' but that doesn't mean that it isnt extremely overpowered. And it's sad, I like Stormbringers, I think they are actually really fun but sadly somewhat weak in mass PvP, I would love for them to get a nice buff on all their skills at the removal of the vortex.

dregenfox

Vortex is a problem for some classes, but it's possible to leap out of it or holy path out. It's defintely the primary reason I end up burning my immunities though, so it's a strong skill as far as that goes.

jsxshadow

@dregenfox Yap, Vortex alone is no problem at all. It is the follow-ups, the support you get that is OP. If it is just the vortex then you simply walk out of it with anything that is not just normal walking speed and even then..depending on ping, you could be able to just walk out of it. If you have 10 people wasting all their Cooldowns just to be pulled into the next vortex + AOE Disarm + HF + AOE Purge...well yeah. They most likely all die. The vortex on its own isnt that powerful. The synergy it creates is OP but I thought that is what mass-PvP is about, no?

In this thread we are discussing skills/classed that are absolutely devestating on their own without even the slightest bit of support. That is the mother of all difference, if you ask me.

Also, loads of people instantly throw their immunities our of the video just when they see the vortex appearing...in 90% of all situations thats just stupid. If you see an AOE disarm and can expect a HF to hit next then thats the point on which you could pop any sort of immunity if you can. A vast majority of people simply hardcore panics when they see a vortex...

just chill out.

blazerboy

@jsxshadow I know you did not just call vortex fair.... That skill is why DA TW is so dead and a huge reason crisis beat origin 1v1 vortex is in no way a positive for this game esp when you can glitch ppl in the air cuz of it nope don't try that xD. Negated? I've yet to see a endgame or even very decent gear/skill sb vortex ever negated xD. I'd sooner see that skill removed from xtw and tw than tidal xD

dregenfox

jsxshadow wrote: »

@dregenfox Yap, Vortex alone is no problem at all. It is the follow-ups, the support you get that is OP. If it is just the vortex then you simply walk out of it with anything that is not just normal walking speed and even then..depending on ping, you could be able to just walk out of it. If you have 10 people wasting all their Cooldowns just to be pulled into the next vortex + AOE Disarm + HF + AOE Purge...well yeah. They most likely all die. The vortex on its own isnt that powerful. The synergy it creates is OP but I thought that is what mass-PvP is about, no?

In this thread we are discussing skills/classed that are absolutely devestating on their own without even the slightest bit of support. That is the mother of all difference, if you ask me.

Also, loads of people instantly throw their immunities our of the video just when they see the vortex appearing...in 90% of all situations thats just stupid. If you see an AOE disarm and can expect a HF to hit next then thats the point on which you could pop any sort of immunity if you can. A vast majority of people simply hardcore panics when they see a vortex...

just chill out.

Yeah umm you could say Vortex isn't op if it's used the wrong way, you could also say Tidal isn't op at all if no one uses CC on the sin, since it has no other purpose except blocking CC. But that's not exactly what happens.

DB ult isn't op either if the DB pops it at the start of the battle before using any skills. But people don't cast Vortex in a vacuum...

dingo488

blazerboy wrote: »

That skill is why DA TW is so dead

Same on Twilight Temple, tho I disagree that its the reason we lost to Crisis, that wouldn't be a fair claim.

jsxshadow

Mhm. I got caught in alot vortexes myself and only in the very minority of it I died due to it.

I admit to the point that the skill is awesome if you use it right, maybe even OP. Granted. So is Wizards Spark combo and SS/QPQ and so on and so on. Player skill is needed to make that skill count which is why I can accept it. Now tell me..where do you need playerskill to automatically evade nearly all debuff and CC for 60 seconds straight? Where do you even remotely need playerskill to kill someone with 1 skill alone? Yeah. You don't. Not in 1v1. Not in Mass-PvP. Never. However, you could abuse it be make it even more broken. An awesome sin player isnt even broken anymore. It's just unfair in every way imaginable whatever it may be for being tankier than 2 barbs together or for being able to kill max buffed, equally geared people with the same gear while the majority of classes wouldnt even be able to bypass the charm when a fully buffed class just afks. GG.

blazerboy

@dingo488 perhaps it's a bit far fetch since I was 3 vids but main reason nobody wanna fight crisis tw beyond the fact it's a mass of geared ppl. It have enough vortex to send all our ping to hell.I can't blame them for having the numbers gear or storms/db it's their right and NOTHING wrong with it. But even on the best computers all our fraps go to hell. I can play pwi max graphics 0 fraps lag NP then we get into lowest graphical setting possible use 1 vortex I go from 60-70 to 5-7 on lowest setting? Yeah okay that skill is lovely even if it effects both a sides that's total bs...I hardly noticed in origin tw vids a vortexe that wasn't crisis. Perhaps not much in video but that skill should completely be discarded from tw in general esp tw when you can fly just off ground and air glitch ppl.... A major norm even in infamous is db and sb spam vortex together and watch Nemki aoe dead like 10 ppl in 3-4 aoe skills... really... that's completely rediculous if you ask me... Unless that sb is behind in gears cards or sky lvls he/she won't die in a reasonable amount of time to take vortex down... come on.. Everything is fine to me with sb but for the fact you can effect EVERYONES fraps so negatively even your own ppl? Yea no that skill is total bs xD

jsxshadow

@blazerboy Origin didnt have alot less Stormbringer then us. I counted roughly 5. Not even sure if we got that many, but it should be approx the same. We had alot more Duskblades (I think) cause I didnt see alot of Dusks in Origin and we had like what? 8? But cept for SoSinFull the rest is pretty low geared afaik. We didnt have the gear advantage on our side in this xtw at all. We had 2 NP chars vs 8-ish? When I look at the squad setup..holy moly. So many people with way lower gears than even my Storm and I consider my Storm heavily outdated already.

The point is, I dont think that the vortexes nor gear have been the reason why Crisis has won. If I could guess I would bet my money on the fact that Origin is still pretty new and needs some time to know each other to play most effectively. Next time wont be like this time, I am 100%...especially since they got what...8 more NP chars now? xDD We got some too..but make it 3-ish? xD

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csquared5

Joe you are just so wrong on this one mate ^^; Mass pvp has never been the same since vortex. 'Some classes' can leap out of vortex sure, I'm assuming you mean bm, archer, sin, and db. News flash, that means 8 classes without leaps, aka, the majority of classes. And 'walk out of it'? WTF lol. Thats just a lie. You know that is a lie. Sometimes you can't even holy path out of vortex before it yanks you back in again.

Tell me Joe, of all the classes you could choooose to play in PWI for mass pvp (referring to tw and svs mostly here)... which one would you play if you wanted to have the greatest impact on the outcome of the match?...

Yah, I thought so. Your main char is a sb. Telling, isn't it?

A db is pretty scary in 1vs1, while also being 'good' at mass pvp. But a sb is by far the most incredibly strong annoying thing in mass pvp this game has ever seen, strong enough to make it feel like wiz, psy, and archers are almost obsolete in comparison. The pairing of vortex + aoe stun is so powerful that whether your faction wins or not can often be dictated by who has the greatest # of geared bms and sbs.

Problems with vortex:
-it can pull you from air to ground. healers in the air, prepare to be royally fcked up while people on the ground can do full dmg to you ground-to-air. outrunning vortex is tough---outflying it is almost impossible
-you can't tell where the boundaries of its pull range are. You think 'avoid that pink area' but you have no clear way of telling just how far around it you have to step or fly. Stray just a little too close and you get yanked
-low chi cost and low cd---spammable, and sbs do spam it. if it wasn't as effective as I'm describing sbs wouldn't use it so bloody often!
-the amount of time between yanks is low. If if yanked you back to the center a little less frequently, you really might be able to walk out of it. but you can't. Not without some sort of speed buff or teleport. Do I need to mention that clerics, sage mystics, and psychics do not have speed buffs of any sort, and 8 classes don't have teleports? Even if you do have a teleport or run skill, if its on cd, you aren't getting out of vortex without genie or apoth intervention.
-combined with other sb aoes that do aoe slow, it becomes even more unlikely that you can get out
-and, of course, combined with aoes from other classes in general, vortex can have the effect of deleting entire enemy squads at once, since you are all stacked on the exact same spot for every aoe to hit you, no matter how miniscule it's range (I'm looking at you, sage veno purge)

SB Vortex does not do dmg, of course. It is a cc skill. Lets compare vortex with other aoe cc skills.

Vortex (sb)
-cc lasts 12s?
-yanks around 4 or 5 times I think with 100% chance? (there are some sage/demon differences I'm not familiar with)
-antistun does not prevent yank, only belief or immunity
-has 30s cd and... 1 spark cost I think?
-affects an area of 12 or 15m in diamater
-RANGED skill--no warning that skill is coming
-*bonus*---induces major lag for everybody nearby \o/
-*bonus2*---you can escape the center of the vortex, only to get pulled back in again---this is almost unique among cc aoes. Most other aoe ccs you only need to escape once. Only one I can think that is also like this is barb ulti, which is melee, 5min cd, and has much lower range than vortex, so not really comparable in terms of danger.
-*bonus3*---the horrible and oft-repeated scenario of having 2 or more vortexes up at the same time, and bouncing between them helplessly like a ping-pong ball while enemies rain dmg down onto you!

Roar (bm)
-cc lasts 6s
-applies stun and disarm with 100% chance
-stun part can be blocked with a variety of antistuns from class skills, genie, and apoth
-belief and immunity can block it as well
-has 15s cd and costs 35 chi
-affects area of 10m diameter
-MELEE skill--often telegraphed by bm rushing in with speed skill
-roars do *NOT* stack onto each other, unlike vortexes

Paranova (veno)
-cc lasts 8s
-applies immobilize+seal with 95% chance (and +30% hf if demon) and does some dmg
-seal can be blocked with anti-seals, immobilize can be blocked with antistuns
-has 30s cd and costs 2 sparks (sage has chance to use 1 spark I think)
-affects an area of 12m
-RANGED skill no warning skill is coming
-paranovas do not stack onto each other

Veno ulti technically does a very short immobilize, though I doubt its long enough to be considered cc... the veno ulti is more dangerous for its non-cc debuffs by far. Fortunately, the ulti has a 5min cd, so its not really a suspect for most annoying skill in group pvp.

Mountain's Seize (wiz)
-cc lasts 6s
-applies stun and does some quite good dmg
-stun can be blocked with variety of antistuns
-has 30s cd and costs 2 sparks (chance for 1 spark if sage)
-affects an area of 12m (sage) or 17m (demon)
-RANGED skill-sometimes there's no warning if wiz uses sutra first; however the skill has a very long channel of 5 seconds (I think the only class skill in game with a longer channel is sage revive? lol) and can often be detected and avoided before it hits you
-stuns don't stack on each other

Psychic has an aoe stun with a 6s duration and a 6 or 8meter range, not usually large enough to catch a lot of spread out enemies, and a 4m range immobilize not really worth mentioning for aoe cc either. Dbs have an aoe weapon disable and a (short) aoe paralyze I believe, though vague on the specifics. Barbs ulti does short repeating burst of paralyzes---fortunately it has a 5min cd like all other ultis. Mystics can do an aoe sleep with their plant, but since most dmg breaks sleep and all antistuns avoid sleep, this isn't really worth mentioning either in comparison to sb vortex.

To me, it seems pretty obvious that vortex wins on most counts for best aoe cc. It lasts the longest, has close to highest range (only demon wiz Mountain Seize has higher), it ccs you multiple times for its duration, is tough to avoid because antistun doesn't block it like it does most other aoe ccs, it has low cd (similar to other aoe ccs) and low chi cost (lower than most, only roar is lower), it can stack on itself (bouncing between 2 vortexes). And, as a bonus point, it adds a lot of lag to the battlefield. You say, well that means it affects the enemy team too, which it does yes, but when you need the most to not be lagging is when you are caught in a cc that moves your character around, *not* when you are standing still button mashing skills onto enemies caught in the vortex.

The flow of mass pvp irrevokably changed after vortex became prevalent. Before, with good player spacing, you could effectively avoid how many ppl were hit by aoes. I remember always telling people to spread out. Avoiding normal aoes means, 'an aoe is coming, spread out before it hits'---afterwards you can, if needed, group together a bit more, and then spread out again as situation requires (eg, think of multiple melees attacking the same people, by necessity they'll be clumped, it can't be avoided). Spreading out helps against vortex too, but you have to *stay* spread out afterwards for a really really long time. As somebody else said above, a large patch of the playing ground becomes un-enterable unless you wish to get caught. Vortex is more than just an offensive skill---it is a WALL which protects the players behind it. Anybody who wishes to get to the enemies on the other side of vortex has to make a massive half-circle around the vortex, which takes a lot of extra time, all while you are taking dmg from the enemies. Think of SvS and all of the narrow passageways you must enter into if you wish to progress further, such as the side lanes, or the final entry to the enemy dragon boss. Vortexes are persistent violet-colored walls that no sane person will try to get through to reach the enemy players on the other side. Therefore vortex is highly defensive and offensive at the same time.

In addition, many classes have aoes, but often many of those aoes don't have that big of a range. Most classes have 1 or maybe 2 aoes of good range, and multiple other aoes of rather mediocre range. Some examples of skills of mediocre range might be Sharpened Tooth Arrow or Thunderous Blast (archer), Earth Vector and Glacial Shards (psychic), Hailstorm and Will of the Phoenix (wizard), sage purge (veno), etc, etc, etc. But when vortex conveniently yanks everybody within 12-15m into the exact same spot, *every* aoe *no matter how small in range* can hit them. This is really the crux of what makes vortex so dangerous.

I wouldn't be terribly sad if dbs and sbs weren't a part of the game and I suspect a lot of players agree with me... I'm sure they are very fun to play, but they are just a little too strong, as can be expected of new classes from PWI. As another person said, give sbs boosts on some of their skills and take away vortex and I'd be ok with the sb class. I'd agree with that. I suspect though, that YOU as a sb wouldn't though. Because deep down, no matter how many other cool tricks you can do with a sb, vortex is *THE* skill which defines a sb, just like roar+hf are the 2 skills that define a bm, and purge is the skill that defines a veno (and triple spark is the skill that defines a sin *lol*).

As realistic fixes, I think if vortex cost 2 sparks, it might be a little tougher for a sb to use it on cd *and* pump out so much dmg/survive at the same time. Or, if its cd was extended to 1 minute instead, and keep the chi cost at 1spark. Or perhaps make the channel on vortex really long, so you have time to spot the sb attempting to channel it, and target them with cc before they complete the channel (similar to the scenario of a wiz charging up Mountain Seize). Maybe even change the animation on vortex so that (a) its not so laggy, and (b) you can see the boundaries of its pull-zone. Meh. I might as well ask for the moon, PWI isn't listening. But I still wish for it. Because vortex is just that strong and annoying, that I believe it could use fixing.

To sum up this post, I'll say that trying to downplay the power of vortex is an argument you cannot win. The latest class addition by PWI has always been easy to sum up. Db is the new scariest 1vs1 thing. Sb is the new scariest group pvp thing. End of discussion.

catgirldesu

I'm also of the opinion that Stormbringer vortex needs to be modified. To me it's not even about it being "overpowered", it's purely the fact that it makes the game not fun and removes the interaction between players.

Honestly, I prefer getting 1-shot by someone with crazy damage than getting dragged among 3+ vortexes. If I get 1-shot at least I can quickly return to the battle. On the other hand, with 3+ vortexes you can't see what's going on, your FPS drop and the area becomes unplayable until the vortexes are gone.
​​

jsxshadow

@csquared5 I disagree. You maybe right about Vortex's impact on Mass-PvP in general but it is still not nearly as broken as the aforementioned Assassin skills. Again, a sin doesn't need backup at all. Tell me what happens if I go along in Mass-PvP (alone) and put up a vortex on a group of people. Sure, I can use my Frigid Thunder to Freeze the enemies inside for a short while (only 60% chance as demon) so that they can't immediately escape. However, even if my Storm was NP, full deity I would not be able to deal nearly enough damage to kill anything on my own AND to protect myself at the same time from counter-CC. Same in 1v1. I mostly only use Vortex in combination with my Devouring darkness (3x 1 sec paralyze over 9 seconds) vs melee classes or vs caster if I gain my range advantage via Waxing Crescent (+15m range).

If I could trade this skill for a flat out 6/8-seconds AOE stun, I would. Immediately, without hesitation. The most dangerous CC-AOE is and will always be Roar of the Pride. IF you get caught in it and your genie isnt ready and you get followed up by an HF/AOEs you also nearly die to 100%. Compared to RotP, vortex is nothing on its own and RotP even has lower CD, lower Chi cost and only has slightly lower range.

For Sage/Demon differences on Vortex: Sage has 12m range and reels in every 2.3 seconds. Demon has 15m range and reels in every 3 seconds. The Vortex lasts 15 seconds. Duskblades copy vortex has 12m range and reels in every 3 seconds and also only lasts 12 seconds.

So, if we really compare RotP with vortex we can clearly see that even on its own RotP is awesome and can have a huge impact on the battlefield (remember when I said that the faction with the majority of BMs wins automatically in Mass-PvP and as far as I can tell that is true because at the point in which Crisis now has a BM in every squad...we started to become ALOT stronger. We always had ~ the same amount of Stormbringer tho ). Don't also forget that BMs are alot tankier than storms and are thus a bigger Problem in general because kill the storm = all vortexes end immediately.

As I mainly focus 1v1 I just can't name a skill OP that is pretty weak on its own, especially compared to other AOEs. 1 sec CC every 3 seconds for 15 seconds is equal to Barbs ulti with the exception that Barbs ulti also Paralyzes for 2 second every 3 seconds and that it also deals loads of damage. Sure Barbs ulti is alot stronger on its own but it is an Ultimate after all. Storms Vortex deals none on its own. A skill that is pretty much only really strong when you combine it with other classes abilities cannot be considered OP (in my opinion). It becomes OP with the synergy of your Team-Mates. However, a RotP, followed up by an HF, a Barb Ulti and some other AOEs can kill groups of people just fine, even without a vortex. If I had to chose between vortex and RotP when attempting to kill someone I would chose RotP ESPECIALLY since g17.5 def weapons are coming and RotP's disarm just negates them completely.

IF someone would ask me if I'd like to change the current cortex for a RotP effect but for 2 sparks...I wouldn't waste a split second and take it.

This thread is about really broken skills that can destroy people on its own, just the skill itself or keep you alive forever (like Tidal). Churning Vortex is not even remotely comparable to this stuff xD

Besides, as I said before, I did not die that often in a vortex myself as of yet. Maybe all the other Stormbringer are just bad. Maybe they just don't have any follow-up Support. Maybe the skills isnt as OP as you think it is. As a caster I MUCH rather get vortex on my head than a disarm. Any day of the week.

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blazerboy

@jsxshadow once agian not saying crisis didn't fight well but fact of the matter stands crisis had more vortex bots in that war. The sheer control vortex brings to table is just rediculous. In normal tw two sb or db can get on flyer both use vortex next to each other and ur dragged back and forth being sky glitches. What kinda bs is that... If you honestly feel that's fair then I have no words. Also vortex and ulti Hardly takes individual skill. Just listen to what someone says and use skill weather the storm follows up correctly is individual. I can throw even a less desirable vortex and still cause deaths of half a dozen ppl.

Crisis won that war fairly imo but doesn't negate the fact I'm sure a large community can agree vortex shouldn't be allowed in anything nearly coming it's just too much continuous fsp dropping. Perhaps a better engine first but atm no thanks. The guild with more vortex spam and accurate placing can completely turn the tides. Plus I don't think they had nearly enough DBs for the lovely 45% crit nerf. Better start recruiting dbs origin, guild with more NightShade will do well even facing stronger opponents xD also @aradya6793 made a valid point sb vortex + ulti + ulti means you better insta pot/genie "if you aren't dead or cc dead" agian another way this takes no real individual skill just someone else telling you how to play your char which isn't exactly bad but it mutes arguement previously made "no skill and vortex isn't op"

jsxshadow

@blazerboy Like I said. I'd trade Vortex for an effect equal to Roar of the Pride anytime.

I don't know about others but when I die in mass-PvP I either get paralyze locked to hell OR I get disarmed by Roar of the Pride. It's fast and if the enemy has enough BMs it could hit you at any given time. Follow-up DD and you are dead. As long as I can move, cast skills, use apo I am not threatened. Not even if I have to stay in place for 15 seconds. When your genie is gone and a Roar + HF hits you chances are you die.

NO ONE can tell me that the Vortex is stronger than Roar of the Pride. No. That is just not true. Roar of the Pride on its own is a perfect CC-Skills. No flaws, just perfect and thus the strongest CC skill in the entire game. IF a vortex hits you then you can still use IG, even with storm ulti on top, even if you cant use your genie. Roar in such a situation will get you killed with WAY higher odds in such a situation and situations like these are very, very common in Mass-PvP these days, especially fighting a fact with SO many BMs as Origin has.

Reminds me that I've also begged on the forums to remove Roar of the Pride when it was released. I still wonder why :DD

My Point is: Yes Churning Vortex is strong. Maybe even OP when combined with other classes skills. However, not as much as Roar of the Pride. Both offensively and defensively. If a whole group attacks the BM and he uses RotP then he can Holy Path and use both leaps afterwards and is in China long before the Stun even ends. IF a storm does that then he/she just gets range-DD focus-fired and dies anyways. I tried staying alive by using Vortex many times and if I didnt have follow-up CC-Support, no matter how fast I ran, they mostly still got me killed.

15m AOE-range also shouldnt be that much of a Problem. Just keep a longer distance and pay attention to the surroundings and you won't get reeled-in. The lag is a problem, yes, but that is hardly a Stormbringers fault and yes, that does count for everyone that is close by. Lag might prevent you from using skills to stay alive sometimes but lag could also **** up the offensive skills you wanna use.

A suggestion: A nice trade for an effect would be that everyone in the range of the vortex just gets disarmed (perma while in range as long as the vortex stands) and paralyzed for 1 second (in the same interval as it reels now). That would be a fair trade-in. Then people will complain even more because any follow up AOE-Stun/Damage will just wipe everyone, no matter which weapons they use. Just saying

csquared5

You are approaching this from the wrong perspective. You think that a flat out stun would let you kill better. Thats not the POINT though is it. This is MASS PVP. You don't NEED to be able to kill ANYTHING by yourself. What vortex does is clump people over and over again, so that EVERYBODY on your team can easily use even their normally-ineffective aoes and kill groups of people at the same time. Stop thinking about this from a 1vs1 perspective!

You say 'vortex is only strong because of other people's skills'. Umm... so your point is? Of COURSE! Vortex is a cc that vastly amplifies the deadliness of all your allies, by allowing them to hit many more people than ordinary with their aoe skills. And, naturally, your squad's dmg output exceeds your own >.>'

I feel like I run the risk of repeating myself, but many aoes are pretty ineffectual without vortex. Sage veno purge is probably the ideal example. It has a teeny tiny range. In normal gameplay you'd be lucky to purge more than 2 people at a time---people almost literally have to be standing right on top of each other for it to hit them.

But now add vortex to the mix, THE sb skill. And suddenly... sage veno purge is ENORMOUSLY INCREDIBLY dangerous. 10 people caught in vortex? 10 people purged. OMFG.

Now you want to tell me 'sage veno is OP'. NOOOO. Vortex is the enabler skill. Sage venos cannot HAVE the opportunity to be that strong WITHOUT vortex.

Roar of the pride from bms cannot set up that situation for a sage veno. The only way sage veno purge gets to hit 10 ppl is if 10 people are all basically standing on top of each other. Again, give people some credit here, nobody clumps that hard of their own volition, ever >.>' Roar doesn't clump people, but vortex does... over, and over, and over again.

Look at all the ranged classes or melee classes, and count up all the aoes with mediocre range (say, 2-8 meters in diameter). There are quite a few of them. By THEMSELVES, those aoes are pretty weak. They rarely hit more than 2-4 targets in normal gameplay. Often those targets are moving, so, if you are an archer say, you can use thunderous blast, and it hits 3 people, then you go to use sharpened tooth, and those people have spread out, and you hit maybe 2-3 or people, but probably different people. Your dmg is diffused, spread out, less effective.

When vortex clumps all the people into a little spot though, you use sharpened tooth, you hit maybe 10 people. Then you use thunderous blast, and you hit the SAME 10 PEOPLE. OMFG. Are you going to tell me thunderous blast should be considered OP now? NOOOOO. Without vortex, these skills are just ordinary! Vortex is the ultimate ENABLER of all this deadliness.

You are claiming vortex isn't so bad because it does nothing on its own. I counter your claim by saying, vortex is deadly because of how it amplifies the deadliness of everybody else. It doesn't need to do anything else that clump the players. The clump of players *is* what makes it so deadly.

~

Now we need to talk about assassins. Because yes, like dbs, they are very dangerous in 1vs1. A single person isn't likely to have enough cc to string together a lock through tidal. But we aren't talking about 1vs1 here, even though I do know that is your favorite thing. We are talking about mass pvp.

In mass pvp, a sin risks much to go into enemy lines. When a sin sneaks up on a cleric, double sparks, and attempts to kill that cleric, one of three outcomes can occur. (1) the sin is successful---2 sparks (well maybe 4 if we add headhunt) were traded for a kill. (2) the sin wasn't successful in killing, but forced the cleric's genie. or (3) the sin wasn't successful and failed to force the cleric's genie at all.

Regardless of which outcome occurs, though, the sin always takes significant risk going behind enemy lines (the home of all good healers). They can very quickly become the tab target of multiple squads. Tidal is indeed strong, but when 10 people all switch to attack the sin, some sorta cc is gonna get through, and a single stun or seal that gets through could very well be all it takes to kill that sin with all of those attacks flying in (defense charms long gone by this point).

I'm a healer, I know who dies a lot in mass pvp. Pop quiz, who dies the most in mass pvp? Squishy arcanes? Brrrp. Not at all. The prime suspects for most deaths are (assuming equal gear): bms; dbs, and sins. In mass pvp like tw, those are the classes I end up rezzing over and over and OVER again. Why? Aren't sins supposed to be OP? High dmg? Hard to cc? OP??!

YES IN 1vs1 sure. In groups... sure they can be hard to pin down... but they are melee, and melee is inherently risky. In laggy conditions people are often just tab targetting, and sins, bms, and dbs end up on many people's tab targets. Simple fact. And not to mention, people know that bms, sins, and dbs are going for their team's healers, and they make it a priority to discourage them from that pursuit ASAP! If a cc doesn't worm its way through tidal, then the sheer raw dmg of groups of people tab targetting you will often do the trick.

So we have a situation where you have sin, a melee class, whose real specialty is killing people one at a time. Sure, they can do a few aoes... but just as I described above, sin's aoes are often ineffectual, because they fail to hit many people. Throw in vortex, and then sin aoes are much deadlier, but that increase in deadliness goes for every class. Again, that doesn't mean the sin aoes are deadly, it means the vortex is deadly.

The sin's forte being killing individual players, and being melee and risking much to go after targets, I would honestly rank them as below average in group pvp. Unless a sin can take out the one healer at the back of a squad that nobody else can reach, and that one healer is the only one who is keeping the squad alive, a sin can rarely have the overall impact on a squad that, say, an archer, or psychic, or wizard can---true mass ranged mass pvp classes. Those classes bring range + an abundance of aoes to the table, to allow them to deliver more dps and thus be more effective in mass than a sin. And if we compare sins to the other melee classes? They rank lower in my opinion there as well. Bms have useful squad buff + a lot of aoe cc and the all powerful hf. Seekers lack aoe cc, but have a seriously OP single target debuff, and a variety of strong aoes, and are *far* tankier than sins (I heal these classes, its not even a comparison, seekers can tank way more dmg than sins). Barbs are the tankiest of all, have extremely good squad buff, and are the best front-line disruptors along with bms, using a mixture of single target and aoe cc to disturb the enemy, while remaining very hard to kill and doing good dmg to arcanes.

And compared to sbs?... not even close. Sbs beat the living snot out of sins in group pvp. Sbs are ranged, have the best aoe ccs, excellent single target and aoe dps, and a good squad buff. Assassins are melee, have no aoe cc, very excellent single target dps and moderate aoe dps, and no useful squad buff. Both classes are hard to pin down, but sins are always more exposed. Sbs may not have tidal, but they just get hit less often anyways, and lets not forget about purify proc shall we. No, sins are not anywhere remotely as dangerous in mass pvp as sbs. Holding up sins as some example of broken-in-mass-pvp-thing isn't helping you at all.

Pop quiz: what classes attack me most in mass pvp? Answer: sins, dbs, archers, bms, barbs, seekers, sbs... well I mean everybody likes to go for a healer. But mainly those guys. Pop quiz: who actually ends up killing me most often? Answer... sb vortex, duskblades, archers, and seekers, mostly. Sbs, because of vortex. Dbs, because of the paralyze. Archers, because of purge and sheer dps output, safely plunking away on me from 32 meters away (34 if sage). And seekers because that 100 defense level debuff is basically like a single target hf, and if the seeker doesn't kill me after that debuff, then anything hit me at the same time will. Oh and venos get their fair share of assist kills too, via the action of purge and demon ironwood scarab. I'm not saying sins don't get kills on me, they certainly try and they certainly do. But I'm telling you that sins, whose puported job is to kill healers, are not often the ones to kill me. A cleric is designed to protect themselves from bursts of physical dmg, that is what plume shell is for mostly. Again, the risk for a sin to try and attack me is very significant! Tidal stops debuffs but it doesn't stop raw dmg. A db may actually have it a bit safer. A db doesn't get to avoid all the cc, but they do have that unpurgeable buff which makes ranged dmg be very much reduced. So if a db goes for me and then pops anti stun and will surge, effectively cutting off most forms of cc, I can call for help from my allies, and my archer and psy friends will valiantly try to hurt that db, to no avail---he'll take minimal dmg while forcing my genie and leading to my death. (In fact, this situation is sometimes arduous enough that I recruit a sin or db to stay in the air with me at all times and protect me from whoever comes my way. I assure you, my protector stays busy fighting off all the people who want a piece of this beautiful face!) In comparison, sins will take full dmg from the archers and psys and other ranged dps below who answer my call to protect me from the sin on me in the air, which means sins have to run sooner or die.

I think you need to re-evaluate your assumptions. As a healer I have years of experience evaluating incoming squad dmg, and I can assure you, nothing is worse for setting up a squad wipe than a vortex that gets followed up by the aoes of other classes. Nothing.

Cheers,

Aeliah

eirghan

I love you.

dingo488

csquared5 wrote: »

You are approaching this from the wrong perspective. You think that a flat out stun would let you kill better. Thats not the POINT though is it. This is MASS PVP. You don't NEED to be able to kill ANYTHING by yourself. What vortex does is clump people over and over again, so that EVERYBODY on your team can easily use even their normally-ineffective aoes and kill groups of people at the same time. Stop thinking about this from a 1vs1 perspective!

This is probably the main disconnect in this discussion. Over-prioritizing 1v1 kill-potential in mass PvP. I think out of everyone in Crisis that we fought that day Reapa was amongst the worst and most easy to kill players, always self-buffed, always out of position, never working with his squad. I think almost everyone else in Crisis did a really good job though. I agree sins probably have the strongest 1v1 kill potential, and maybe their damage is a bit too high, but in mass PvP that doesn't matter at all, sins won't change the way the battle is fought, sins won't force their whole faction to focus on their abilities alone and do nothing but look for the sin skills to assist on. But that's exactly what we do with vortex, it literally controls the whole battle. And while I agree with you that its not that good if no one assists the vortex... its a giant purple AoE, there's always someone that'll dump stuff in it, it's nothing to be ''good'' at, it's literally the most easy thing in the world. Perfect flow chart for anyone that wants to get into xTW/TW (there's no mention of sins anywhere)

jsxshadow

@csquared5 I'm afraid you are alot too biased based on personal experience and your own class.

Sins are the tankiest class. Well maybe not the brain-dead full deity ones...but trust me. On equal gears a max def lvl sin, as long as he stays fully buffed, will live longer than ANY OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME considering he gets hit by the same people. Sure, if purge gets through, debuffs get through and CC gets through tidal all together the sin will die quick BUT when does that actually happen? Often? Nope. Not at all. And even if Tidal just blocks 66% and lets to other stuff through...any other class without tidal will get pulverized without even the slightest chance of doing anything whilst sins have the possibility to be able to walk away or stealth, at the very least.

Duskblades are not more effective than sins. They might be as long as their immunities are up..but the moment their genie runs dry and they get caught in any CC by 2 or more people they are dead. Instantly. No chance. Same as any other class except for sins. 2-3 people are enough to kill any other class out there. Easily. But not sins. You don't always have 10-20 people that can afford to target that one sin (and even then...as long as he stays buffed and has decent defensive shards he could still live. it's in the luck and the odds are in favor of the sin) all together whilst there is another full squad (or more) right in front of them. You explained a situation in which a sin is completely alone, far off the main battle and tries to pick off a whole group by himself. In a real battle...if they try to focus the sin and leave the rest be they might end up getting wiped. There is no way a squad under pressure can afford to focus a single target for the amount of time that is probably needed to kill a sin. This will get SO MUCH WORSE if such a sin get a g17.5 weapon with the "incoming damage is reduced to 1" proc. Sure, go ahead and focus fire the sin with 30 people. This will spam trigger the proc, he will get nearly no damage. Most CC won't get through, including disarm. Even if purge gets through there are still 200+ def lvl on that sin + that proc. What are the chances to land CC, debuffs, Disarm and a purge? Could happen, true, but most likely it wont. If it doesnt work you could hit the sin with 30 people and he wouldnt die. Why? Tidal. Ah, the best thing is. Even if some stuff ends up getting through tidal and he could die-> AD/Faith -> Ulti and "bye, bye suckers".

Most sins that chose to use offensive shards always made a huge mistake and don't even tap into the potential of the assassin class in the slightest. Purge/Def g17.5 weapon and the basic r9 is good enough to purge single targets and one-skill killing them after the proc no matter which shards you chose. Lower amount of hits needed to kill someone also counteracts defensive procs. While he does that he is pretty much immortal. Picking off such a sin with 2-3 people? :DDD Never. Any other class even with g17? Yap. No problem.

When I think about such topics I don't always go by personal experience. The only times I had trouble with assassins myself was when I 1v1ed them on heavily undergeared characters of mine. They never bothered me once in Mass-PvP. I don't care. Only just because they don't bother myself personally doesnt mean that the class is OK. No, this class is stupid. And, as I said before, it will become even dumber with a vast availability of G17 weapons.

This game has long since no clear-cut roles anymore and giving a single class such a massive tanking advantage + the highest single target damage in the game is just stupid. Let them have their damage but normally they would be glass cannons then. I don't see them being glass cannons. Not. At. All. Or just let them have their tidal but gimp their damage to a point in which they really need skill to kill someone (Even tho Tidal is the biggest problem in mass-pvp).

The problem I see with the opinions of most people is that they only focus on one class alone. Sometimes maybe 2 classes in a direct contrast. That is not enough. Every class has to be compared to every class in every possible situations. Then and ONLY then can we make suggestion on how to balance a class.

If I would make nerfing suggestion on those classes that are a problem for me then I probably would suggest cutting off one of my arms cause I have trouble with no class myself. I play a huge stack of classes and could just pick the most effective class for every match-up possible and would never lose. It is not about personal preference. It's about balancing the game for everyone so that everyone can enjoy it more. If they were to remove tidal, Chill of the Deep and the base damage multipliers then they can gladly take Duskblades Ulti, Paralyze as a whole and Churning vortex with them. Even tho the latter 3 are not even that big of a deal compared to the assassin stuff. When I look at their runes I wanna cry. Seriously. All runes of the other classes add versatility and give new gameplay options and sins runes just built open the already existing BS and make it even more BS.

dingo488 wrote: »

This is probably the main disconnect in this discussion. Over-prioritizing 1v1 kill-potential in mass PvP. I think out of everyone in Crisis that we fought that day Reapa was amongst the worst and most easy to kill players, always self-buffed, always out of position, never working with his squad.

Well, my video would disagree Easy to kill? Sure, when 10 people are on me that's true. Alone, neither of you could ever kill me fully buffed. When I compare myself to your Storms that made absolutely no difference at all...well what would you consider them to be? Always hiding behind the squad and throwing in a vortex here and there. That's pretty much it. APPLAUSE! That got you far in this xTW even tho you guys had even more SBs that day. Yap, I was doing it wrong :DDD Maybe tell your storms that the time they waste to run away and try to stay alive..they could also just die and regroup. But that's just me.

dingo488

jsxshadow wrote: »

Well, my video would disagree Easy to kill? Sure, when 10 people are on me that's true. Alone, neither of you could ever kill me fully buffed. When I compare myself to your Storms that made absolutely no difference at all...well what would you consider them to be? Always hiding behind the squad and throwing in a vortex here and there. That's pretty much it. APPLAUSE! That got you far in this xTW even tho you guys had even more SBs that day. Yap, I was doing it wrong :DDD Maybe tell your storms that the time they waste to run away and try to stay alive..they could also just die and regroup. But that's just me.

Pretty much sums up what I was saying. I think that whole xTW there was only 1 bash on you that didn't result in your immediate death. I don't think I had that with anyone else in Crisis, where I knew that they'd die as soon as I bash them. You should look at how gnar or Auragen play their wizards, for me to lock them down I have to take a considerable risk myself, you literally walked up to me in melee range asking to get locked down. Sure, u were unbuffed and sure, half my squad went on u when I called out my bash, but that doesn't matter, it's a team game, no one cares how you get killed and how many people attacked you. If you're out of position and unbuffed you're going to die, no reason to have a ''1v1'' or to do it ''alone''. Anyway, I shudn't have mentioned it, my bad -_-''

jsxshadow

dingo488 wrote: »

jsxshadow wrote: »

Well, my video would disagree Easy to kill? Sure, when 10 people are on me that's true. Alone, neither of you could ever kill me fully buffed. When I compare myself to your Storms that made absolutely no difference at all...well what would you consider them to be? Always hiding behind the squad and throwing in a vortex here and there. That's pretty much it. APPLAUSE! That got you far in this xTW even tho you guys had even more SBs that day. Yap, I was doing it wrong :DDD Maybe tell your storms that the time they waste to run away and try to stay alive..they could also just die and regroup. But that's just me.

Pretty much sums up what I was saying. I think that whole xTW there was only 1 bash on you that didn't result in your immediate death. I don't think I had that with anyone else in Crisis, where I knew that they'd die as soon as I bash them. Sure, u were unbuffed and sure, half my squad went on u when I called out my bash, but that doesn't matter, it's a team game, no one cares how you get killed and how many people attacked you. If you're out of position and unbuffed you're going to die, no reason to have a ''1v1'' or to do it ''alone''. Anyway, I shudn't have mentioned it, my bad -_-''

Yap, just as much as it is a team-game that when you got reeled in a vortex followed by 10 AOEs you're going to die. Just as much as when you get caught in a Roar followed by 10 AOEs. You're going to die just as much. #Logic

Also, in most cases, if you didn't Bash me, I still wouldn't have died. If you'd have picked any other random Crisis caster that was there besides me, they would've died too. This is what I feel is what you always forget. Stormbringer are not solely ranged. If I could use my knock-back AOE from 30m away then I would. If I could use my mini-Occult Ice (Tidal Force) from 30m away, I would. I go up close to be able to use my CC-Abilities to its potential and I have thrown off-guard LOADS of people with the follow-up knockback after my vortex just for them to be sucked back in right away cause that leads to a sort of Stun-lock. Short, yes, but it can be enough to kill the people inside the vortex. If that style of gameplay would be useless, I wouldnt do it.

csquared5

And the class you pick for mass pvp? Is it sin?...

Some important points:

-G17r4 and r5 weapons aren't meta yet and, as such, are largely irrelevant.

-any class takes more dmg when debuffed. I do hope you'll recall that clerics can purify debuffs. I spend an awful lot of time in mass pvp purifying debuffs. I know which ones are nasty and need to be purified right away, and which ones to leave on the target and just heal that person instead. Yes the seeker who has 10 debuffs on him will obviously take more dmg than the sin who has just 2 debuffs on him. However, with a single skill, that situation is immediately reversed, and the seeker goes back to being significantly tankier than the sin (my purify or his qpq, whichever occurs first). Also when you said 'sins are tankier' I hope you weren't including barbs, who can have 2.5 to 3x the hp of a sin, and I sure hope you weren't including bms with magic marrow in, whom I hit for 50% less dmg than sins normally, and I wonder if you were including arcanes who get purify proc frequently removing all those nasty debuffs (somehow purify proc doesn't even get brought up anymore but its still an important part of how arcanes manage themselves in mass isn't it?!). Hmmm. Hmmm indeed.

-tidal doesn't imbue magical dmg-reducing properties. When debuffs are factored out, sins do in fact take more raw elemental dmg than arcanes, and more physical dmg than heavy armors. Light armor is non-ideal defensively, recall that.

-tidal isn't always up. either a sin ends up taking a 30 second break from the action for tidal cd, or they take their chances, get caught, and then end up using genie or apoth to get away. If no genie or apoth is available they are kaput. If they mostly kite when tidal is down, that is an awful lot of downtime in their dps compared to ranged classes, which further helps justify their better dps when tidal is up. Tidal is not the end-all be all.

-you still haven't explain how a class that is
>>>melee
>>>primarily single target
>>>has no significant squad buff
>>>has few aoe skills (cannot spam aoes)
>>>has NO aoe cc whatsoever through class skills
can somehow be more effective in mass pvp than a class that is
>>>ranged
>>>mix of single target and aoe
>>>has a good squad buff
>>>has many aoe skills
>>>has excellent aoe cc skill.

I'm just not seeing it. A sb can output more dmg in mass pvp hands down! They get to hit stuff while moving for god's sakes, a sin spends so much time chasing people and kiting away with tidal is down. They get to group people into a nice tight clump and aoe the sh.t outta them! (If the sb is good he tells the squad first, then the group of people tends to die a horribly swift death, intead of just being annoyed by the sb attempting to solo them... gg.) If a sin shards deities, they get kills, but get killed more often. If a sin shards jades, they often fail to get kills, but don't get killed as much. Of course there's a tradeoff, a jades sin is more support, while a deity sin is more the 'kill them before they can react' thing. Either way, sins are still a single target melee class, and even if we assumed what you said was true (that they are the tankiest thing ever with tidal in) they still end up dying a fair bit because they just get hit by a lot of people, or a cc sneaks its way through tidal, the sin is forced to genie, and then the sin dies once tidal expires because this time genie isn't ready. 66% resistance to debuffs isn't 'immunity to debuffs'. Even barbs who overextend past my healing range can die horrible swift deaths, despite their massive hp pool and defenses, because they'll have entire squads focusing on em for a few seconds. Even if that barb only takes 2k dmg per hit from each person, with 10 ppl hitting, thats like 20k dmg every couple seconds... you can bet he'll die, same goes for a sin, same goes for anybody. Melee is tough to survive.

-may I direct your attention to this quite-skilled db and allow you to see that, a db can have pretty decent survival even in mass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC6NHWVN15I
and please take note, what is the one skill they copy over and over and over again from another class? You have one guess :<

Anyways, I'm done on this topic, clearly we will not convince each other. However, I have the luxury of having quite a few people agree with me, so really, it is your responsibility to convince us that the majority of people in this case are somehow wrong. So far I find your arguments lacking. To recap, my positions are that:

-sins are very strong in 1vs1, probably strongest, but average in mass pvp (basically the more people there are, the less effective sin becomes, and the more ranged is favored, because fighting in melee becomes very very hard when there are too many people. Sins can survive, but it'll involve frequent kiting backwards to wait for cds, which will significantly reduce their dmg output.)
-sbs are good in 1vs1, and the strongest in mass pvp via the action of vortex
-dbs are very strong in 1vs1, possibly strongest, and good in pvp (extra vortexes, good squad buff, and paralyzes bumps their usefulness higher than sin imo)
-bms are good in 1vs1 and very strong in mass pvp; the bm and sb classes amplify each other in mass pvp, and deciding which is more deadly without the other present is pretty much a pointless debate, since nowadays, they always work together. Suffice it to say that the combination of (bm+sb) is ridiculously effective and avoiding the cc of vortex + aoe stun is very hard.

Cheers,

Aeliah

Unknown

This content has been removed.

dingo488

aradya6793 wrote: »

now tell me which other class can survive this and take solokills even​​

A sin with 45k hp... I have no clue what his gear is, but something tells me you didn't exactly pick the average sin to fairly represent the class in general :^) Maybe I'm wrong, I've never heard of this sin, but something tells me this video showcases how strong gear is more than it showcases how strong a class is.

jsxshadow

@csquared5 Exactly @aradya6793 No other class can survive this.

To finish off the sin argument. Sins are not made to sneak into a group of people, stealth amd walk away or even kill them all. They should be like any other class. If they try the above mentioned they have a full AD/IG duration and if they make a mistake, they instantly have to die just as even the tankiest of classes would. Go in without full immunity should always be 100% certain death. It isnt even justified that sins only have a "chance" to survive that because no other class even has a chance. Caster, Tank, LA...doesnt matter. There is always a paralyze class around and 10v1 its hardcore game-over. Tidal is cancer. It reduces players skill and strategic gameplay by 99%. At the very least sins have to worry alot less about debuffs and such and no, they dont deserve this because..yet again, no other class has it.

As for the vortex: I cannot and will never consider a skill as broken that is only that effective if people use it right. That is the big difference. If you put the vortex(es) at the right spot and have decent follow-ups then you've done that right. You've proven at least basic strategic skill and deserve the kills. If a storm puts a random vortex on a single person on the edge of the map then its hardly an OP skill. If a storm gets left behind by her group and uses the vortex without follow-up (happened to me alot back in the day) then its also not very OP. Everyone values teamplay so much and now its too OP because people can utilize it that much? Err... Reward people for playing together decently.

Also, any faction can utilize their stormbringer and can pull nice AOE-wipes aka its open for anyone. People can watch out for storms, even put dbs on their heads to take them out before they can do anything. I try to focus other storms as well as much as I can. Again, i dont see anything unfair here.

People shall watch out and insta focus assassins that appearently are not that strong..but they cant look out for strombringer and get them killed? What?! That does not make any sense.

Tidal especially is broken and unfair because it requires 0 skill to be effective. Even people with an IQ of literally 80 could be OP tanky if they have a tanky built sin and kite to china everytime tidal is off. I hate skills that require not even basic skill. That is exactly why Tidal and Churning Vortex cant be compared and are miles ahead of each other. Vortex requires a good situation to be OP. Tidal is always OP.

I don't get what is so hard to understand about that.

Also, most of the times when people die massively in a vortex it is their own fault. If they know that the enemy uses them alot why cant they split up a little further? Back in the day people split up to not get hit by a 12m aoe and all of a sudden 3 more meters are too much? C'mon.

PS: Just because you could kill a class with 10+ people rather easily (which is still not always true vs sins) doesnt mean the class is balanced while EVERY OTHER CLASS requieres ALOT less to be killed effectively.