Class Nerfs?
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People who think that sins are not broken just need to compare it to all the other classes and see what they can do or rather can't. It's so easy.
Good point.
Sins can't lock down a large group of people to set up big AoEs. [pretty much all other classes can]
Sins can't use strong debuffs effects. [pretty much all other classes can]
Sins can't purge reliably.
Sins can't effectively lock down a single target, while maximizing DPS.
Sins can't skirmish as long as heavy armor classes since without tidal they are super vulnerable.
Sins can't disarm, which is one of the stronger effects right now with purify/def lvl weapons.
Sins can't use displacement effects. (knockbacks/reel ins)
Sins can't attack from range effectively.
Sins can't heal anyone.
Sins can't buff anyone.
All these things are probably amongst the most important assets a class can have in mass PvP and an assassin doesn't have a single one of them... But we've been over this ''they can do this damage with a skill with no CC and no AoE'' bla bla bla, its always just the 1v1 focused nonsense.
Teamwork wins, solo play does not, and most other classes contribute more to this teamplay than sins do. Sure, great solo-kill potential, amazing, too bad that isn't worth a thing, have fun doing 1v1's in the corner of the map.
Don't get me wrong, a sin that's good at assisting is worth more than almost anything else... but we don't need the sins to be effective, the sins need us to be effective. Doesn't quite qualify as broken to me. Unless you're always caught out of position without any buffs... in which case ye, its an assassin, in which game do assassins not punish bad positioning? Sins kill noobs that can't stay with their team, they always have and always will, in any game.
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Quality response...
Up next, why aren't cars good airplanes.
Can't Fly who cares its a car0 -
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aradya6793 wrote: »i recently watched some pk videos of HH
I'm talking about mass PvP, not the clownshow that is Twilight Temple PK. I hope the PK is higher quality on other servers because the PK on Twilight Temple is quite possibly the lowest quality PvP I have ever seen in my life, so ye... solo classes do pretty well in a setting where no one plays together, shocker. Fight them in xTW (or even during RW) and you're left wondering if they are even there or not.
Also, I do agree Duskblades are broken, you guys were talking about sins, Dusbklades is a completely different story... Duskblades can CC people forever while at the same time dealing optimal damage, completely different story than assassins.
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Best arena squad is going to be 3 db's, each DB takes 1 person and beats their helpless CC'ed enemy repeatedly until their body turns into a bloody pulp.
Same for mass PvP, a carefully thought out, balanced squad of 10 people will get rekt by 10 DB squad who takes on 1 person each.
The only reason DB isn't as good in mass pvp is because other classes suck and aren't as good as DB's, so the lone DB gets CC'ed and focused by everyone. Once the DB is dead all the sucky classes who arent DB/sin can fight it out with each other while secretly wishing they were a DB.
The only squad that has a chance to beat 10 DB is a 10 sin squad with tidals.
This is called PWI's Holy Order of Balance.0 -
The way I have always seen it is you can control a db, you can kill a sin. If you're having problems with a sin in (x)tw/pk/rw, then you have a coordination problem. I can honestly say even with fighting an op af nuema portal sin, I'd rather have that than almost any other class. Because sins have to single target people down, it's not hard to kite and stay alive. Db's are the broken ones with their constant locks and immunes to stuns, do not whine just because the duskblades you all made can't lock a sin down. Sins are the only real counters to a duskblade and you want to get rid of the way they counter? Big shocker.0
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Nobody CARES if a sin 'solo-kills' somebody in mass-pvp lol! A sin kills me, I use rez buff and get right back up, couple seconds later I'm buffed and back to healing, and that sin is left there looking a little foolish if the rest of my squad is still up.
If a vortex ropes together half my squad and I die as a result, good chances are its not just me who died, but also several other people. So this time when I take the rez buff, I have a lot more work to do... rebuff myself, rez several people, rebuff them as well, and all this time my surviving squad mates are taking more focused dmg, since the dmg is being spread out between fewer people, so probably another death or 2 occurs while I'm rezzing, so I rez more newly deads... we get to the point where half my squad has died, we are low on chi, need rebuffing, we need to kite back to avoid just dying again... all this results from the action of vortex and how easy it makes it for enemy players to just dump aoes onto huge #s of ppl at same time.
It almost doesn't matter how strong the single target dmg is (within reason, sins aren't landing one-shots on all their skills after all), that dmg is melee, kitable, avoidable. In terms of which class puts more pressure onto opposing team, its a no-brainer. Sb and vortexes can lead to either a massive retreat, or the deaths, of many ppl at once. No matter how dangerous a sin is, they are mostly dangerous to just one person at a time.
Observe how an imbalance in vortexes (Karma had more sbs than us) can allow a team which is outnumbered to still put up a fierce resistance, simply because we cannot advance without getting sucked into vortex.
Anywhere in 2nd half of video shows how strong vortex is at slowing our advance onto enemy dragon in narrow corridor
In particular, check out 39:35 and tell me a sin can pressure our squad like that. I dare you!
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Let's make Vortex and storm ulti proc chance based on SF so we can make g16 sb a lot less affective than they currently are
and now I patiently wait for the Stormbringers lynchmob lol....
I've also given up the arguement of Duskblade damage even though he if you look at it at base perspective I would agree, no sparks included they do out DD sins oh wait dusk not even sage can spark uncontrollably with hardly consequences. All I gotta say is current meta db can be op let's wait for next meta hell g17 will make it so most db won't be a problem besides the fact certain classes will darn well become gods105/105/105 Seeking ScallyMode
http://mypers.pw/5/#2589580 -
Duskblades are hardly broken in Mass-PvP. Heck, If you dont have a maxed out damage dusk you deal nothing on fully buffed josd targets. Sins could still deal massive damage on those classes. Dusks have a few very usefull CC AOEs for Mass-PvP and they can lock-down single targets...but did I forget something? When can DBs lock down a target forever? ah, yes. When no one is bothering them. They dont have limitless Cooldowns, they cannot avoid paralyze themselves. Counter-CC them and they deal 0 damage and cast 0 CC. Good luck trying that with an assassin.
I much rather deal with a duskblade in mass pvp than a sin. If I catch the db without genie then I could solo-kill him even, the more easier with mates to AA. Sins are not remotely as easily killed as a DB...so that comparison is lacking. I thought we value mass pvp that much? Who cares about solo lock-ability?
Besides..Duskblades Damage is only then greater then a sins if the DB applies his debuffs. Nothing a sin can pull off equals a nice Quad-Combo. Cooldown tho. single target tho. Not like that combo would be faster then a sins one-shot-skills. Duskblades need a bigger setup than sins, you see them coming. you can counteract/counter-CC with all your team and you have way more time for that compared to when a sin attacks.
If anyone ever dies in a group of 10 by a single duskblade then I suggest those players uninstall the game. When a sin comes out of stealth in 2 spark and zerkcrit charmbypasses someome out of the blue...well..thats a different story. Not to mention that he can just chain ulti and stay alive 100% no matter what the team does.
Also, a well timed subsea + rift can also obliterate entire groups. Sins deal alot more AOE damage than duskblades in those 2 skills. Sure Quadrature is a very very small AOE too, bit gl pulling that off in a real battle
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Sb vortex in xtw is significantly less rediculous due to no flying and heck the server even feels more stable imo. I can play with much less fraps drop in xtw than normal tw, I've given up on vortex. I don't honestly feel a sin is a counter to a db in general. Maybe in 1v1 it's a good counter but so is a bm barb if skilled due to HP pool counter cc and damage. For mass pvp the most annoying class to me would be BM can spam disarm easier and more efficiently than even db. A squad of 5 BMs vit stone/jade on me or a squad of 10 jade/deity db hmm I'll take my chances with the dbs but just me105/105/105 Seeking ScallyMode
http://mypers.pw/5/#2589580 -
Sb vortex in xtw is significantly less rediculous due to no flying and heck the server even feels more stable imo. I can play with much less fraps drop in xtw than normal tw, I've given up on vortex. I don't honestly feel a sin is a counter to a db in general. Maybe in 1v1 it's a good counter but so is a bm barb if skilled due to HP pool counter cc and damage. For mass pvp the most annoying class to me would be BM can spam disarm easier and more efficiently than even db. A squad of 5 BMs vit stone/jade on me or a squad of 10 jade/deity db hmm I'll take my chances with the dbs but just me
10 BMs vs 10 Duskblades on equal gears and the BMs will wipe the floor with the dusks. 10 Cap Pdef chars, even on selfbuffs, which render nearly all debuffs useless with a near constant disarm, HF, glacial Spike + AOE spam. Bruh, the BMs would destroy the DBs so hard I doubt that even 3 BMs would die while the whole DB squad lies flat on the floor.
@aradya6793 Yes, Roar of the Pride is the strongest Mass-PvP skill in the entire game. By far. BMs are in general a much..MUCH bigger threat in Mass-PvP than Stormbringer. Superior Def, superior Debuffs, Superior CC. Stormbringer have one skill that can save themselves. 1. That is the lowest amount of save-skills of any class in this game and people call Stormbringer a dumb, OP class for Mass-PvP. Maybe if the storm is good, yeah.
Since I never had a single problem with an enemy Stormbringer it must really be as I said before. Sorry if I'm too good on my storm and the rest just sucks or doesnt have any kind of Teamplay-Synergy. It is the responsibility of any good Faction-Leader (or the person responsible for the squad setup in xtw/tw) that squads are being setup in a way that it benefits their playstyle and team-synergy. Can't remember if I ever had a problem with an enemy vortex or that I died due to a vortex. However, I do remember nearly only dying by a BMs disarm/paralyze and AA on me. So whats more OP...a skill that can be evaded by as much as good positioning or a skill that renders you pretty much defenseless...
If any skill needs to be removed for mass pvp cause its too OP then it is Roar of the Pride with its disarm effect. Churning Vortex doesnt come even remotely close to that. ofc you fight random, nub players that let themselves get farmed like noobs in every vortex they got reeled in but I expect the majority of people to not be that noob.0 -
-_-'' why do u keep mentioning/posting vids about sins of who no one has a single clue what kind of gear they have... thats like me saying psychics deal too much damage and then posting Dani's vids as ''example'' and then conveniently not mention their gear... hardly an example if they have twice everyone's gear. Not to mention he's fighting Defiance, not exactly the most endgame players, I doubt the gear between him and the people he's fighting is even close0
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-_-'' why do u keep mentioning/posting vids about sins of who no one has a single clue what kind of gear they have... thats like me saying psychics deal too much damage and then posting Dani's vids as ''example'' and then conveniently not mention their gear... hardly an example if they have twice everyone's gear
That sin prolly has the highest Rbed NP set in the entire game xD dunno about the date of the vid..but as of today he is full devil/serenity sharded, 4x 2nd rb, 2x 1st rb NP cards xD rest of the gear is maximum too, ofc.
Still, there is a nearly equally geared psy on our server and that guys dies within seconds if he gets focused. So @aradya6793 's example is still correct. A caster with that gear gets purged, disarmed, debuffed and still gets 40k zerkcrits from random classes (if the right debuffs are applied). The Assassin not so much. The tankier the sin gets the more OP tidal becomes. IF that sin had full serenity stones and a g17.5 weapon and would insta stealth before tidal runs out and only show up with tidal on he would never die. NEVER.0 -
That sin prolly has the highest Rbed NP set in the entire game xD dunno about the date of the vid..but as of today he is full devil/serenity sharded, 4x 2nd rb, 2x 1st rb NP cards xD rest of the gear is maximum too, ofc.
=_=' surely you understand why that's not the right sin to use as an example for the class in general...
Also, definitely not the highest RB NP set, we have a full RB2 NP wizard on Twilight Temple
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That sin prolly has the highest Rbed NP set in the entire game xD dunno about the date of the vid..but as of today he is full devil/serenity sharded, 4x 2nd rb, 2x 1st rb NP cards xD rest of the gear is maximum too, ofc.
=_=' surely you understand why that's not the right sin to use as an example for the class in general...
Also, definitely not the highest RB NP set, we have a full RB2 NP wizard on Twilight Temple
We all know bele is a very, very bored but also very, very rich lad 0 -
ARCHERS ARE BROKEN!!
I got one shot by an archer that was using barrage, and I was BUFFED
Please remove archer barrage
Oh wait i forgot to mention he had x1.5 my spirit (or was it x2? i already forgot), deity, rb NP vs my seat set +10/partly vit stones0 -
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Exactly. any class with np set gets AAed by decent geared people and they die in seconds. No problem. Because debuffs and CC are stronger than gear. Now if you cant apply them...well..
@aradya6793 I dont understand why those guys dont understand it. It's mind-devestating. They know exactly that sins live longer under equal force than any other class, even barbs if they are not invoked. Just the fact that its so hard to purge them makes sins ALOT tankier than any other class cause mac buffs currently add like 3x survival-power compared to selfbuffs.
Anyone still telling me that tidal isnt unfair compared to the other classes has mental problems, seriously. I hate to explain the same god damn obvious thing again and again. It gets sickening.0 -
You guys both painfully forget there's a big difference between being melee and attacking from 30 meters range amidst 30+ allies... And immediately state that there's 10 people on both in the example, completely ignoring the fact it's way more easy to get 10 people to attack a sin than it is to get 10 people to attack someone thats attacking from 30m range in mass PvP >.> I'd rather do all my damage from 30m range than have tidal ;x
But sure, let's say mr OP gear is completely isolated from any allies, no one to peel for him/protect him, no 20 people to run through to even touch him, no one to rebuff him once someone does actually make it through and purges him, then yes tidal is pretty good >.> But that just means Mr OP gear plays like ****, and so do his allies. But I think all things considered I think its pretty balanced to have a skill like Tidal, else the class wud be completely useless...Post edited by dingo488 on0 -
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Tidal is a tank skill. People like to define Assassins as DDs...well. If a class deserves tidal in a game that mainly revolves around tanking and pulling cata in most situations then its the Barb class. Just simple game design logic here. Why give a skill that makes a class so tanky to a **** DD class? Tidal would belong to a barb or a seeker at max, not an Assassin. Now imagine that, Tidal on a Barb the way it is now for sins and gl killing a Barb ever.
@dingo488 So sins would be garbage without tidal? Now, would they? Just show me a single melee class that can stand amidst 10+ people and survive...no rather even have the chance to survive that. Yeah, there is none. Even if they maange to kite a bit...if they get hit by a single CC and people close in on them to apply more CC then they are dead 100%. Any class at that. YOu need tremendous luck to stop a sin from moving and thus you would mostly need to chase a sin over the whole battlefield to catch him as long as tidal is on. Point being: How do the other melee's do it then? Going by your logic they would be ultra-useless in mass pvp. Sure some of them might be able to do some shenanigans..AOE CC and all..still..they get caught = they die. End of story.
As I said before, sins can still stealth into a group of people and try to take out 1 or 2 players. However, instead of not needing to use anything..they would have to use genie and IG or anything along those lines to successfully pull that off and would have to retreat in time to not die. Like any other class in the friggin game. Just for the sole fact that sins could do that til now without even the need to use apo and/or genie is reason enough to friggin delete Tidal. They don't even need tidal...Focused mind will keep them alive quite a long time as well..only difference being that they cannot luck their way out of enemy CC...just as any other class. Stealth, Focused mind, ports...even without tidal they are BY FAR not the class with the lowest amount of save skills and still have the highest solo-target DD-Power of all classes.
Yeah I know it would be terrible if sins couldnt just shut their brains off, jump into a group of people..randomly smashing buttons, killing 1-2 people and then stealth away...rinse and repeat. OH, but WAIT! They could still do that..just without shutting their brains off and without randomly smashing on buttons. Damn, I know PWI skill-level is ultra-low and I probably shouldnt have the expactation to find many good sins but hot damn it gets ridiculous.
A skill that requires no timing, no preparation, no skill to use...why should that exist? Any other so called OP stuff like Roar of the Pride, Churning Vortex and even Duskblades as a whole require timing, coordination and basic skill to be effective. Does tidal require any of it? No. Does it have any right to exist then? No.
PW is a game on which many complain that it already has low skill-requirements and then people try to argue against removing one of those skills that absolutely require no skill at all...I am massively disappointed of the community.0 -
Is laughable that some people think that playing assassin equals to smashing buttons with closed eyes. And is also laughable when some people believe that all sins are Gods that can survive attacks from 10 people in the same time.
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So sins would be garbage without tidal? Now, would they? Just show me a single melee class that can stand amidst 10+ people and survive...no rather even have the chance to survive that. Yeah, there is none.
Hang on, lemme find a video of an almost full RB2 Nuema Portal BM/Barb (with both psychic AND Duskblade buffs) who is fighting a C-Tier faction to show that any melee class can survive in those circumstances!! Since apparently this qualifies to you guys as a good example for the class in general.
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I just came up with good fixes for tidal. Keep it as it is BUT! increase the cooldown by at least 30 seconds and change it so it lets Disarm, Paralyze and Purge through. Always. If its just a more chance-based antistun then its ok.0
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Can I ask for 100% para on barb and a decent antistun? Barb is the weaker class of the game *wink wink*
About Sin and DB i guess they need to check about damage... i'm suppose to be a tank class and barely I can handle 1 sin or db on my sage josd barb...
About Tidal, what's the chance to evade CC? 66%?
I think Tidal have a sense because assassins are not so tanky, but 66% is a bit much. They already have some other skills to evade damage and many way to escape also. If you check my TW video many time is a sin the last man standing... they can just reduce Tidal chance.
Another thing that need to be fixed is psy buff on other class that are not psy
Imho psy buff on certain class is broken... Roar_King
Level 105 Barbarian with Deity Stone0 -
Can I ask for 100% para on barb and a decent antistun? Barb is the weaker class of the game *wink wink*
About Sin and DB i guess they need to check about damage... i'm suppose to be a tank class and barely I can handle 1 sin or db on my sage josd barb...
About Tidal, what's the chance to evade CC? 66%?
I think Tidal have a sense because assassins are not so tanky, but 66% is a bit much. They already have some other skills to evade damage and many way to escape also. If you check my TW video many time is a sin the last man standing... they can just reduce Tidal chance.
Another thing that need to be fixed is psy buff on other class that are not psy Imho psy buff on certain class is broken...
That's so true... Most endgame barbs have phys def capped... plus josds buff.. How come a sin can hit so hard o_O? They dont have strong debuffs, yet i've taken upto 25k damage0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXi45uIrOt0
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