ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
I'd love to see in game player moderators instead of a system like that. I'd rather see trusted people be given the power to temporarily mute somebody rather than give power to the masses to instigate their own martial law.
I don't really like the idea of weighing reports. Let's say I walk into an area and there is a Gold Spammer and I report them. Not to say I don't want the game to be popular but I don't think there would be 19, let alone 39, other people who would report them within a few minutes. Many people, sad to say, simply do not report people no matter what. Those that do likely are not to all abandon everything else to report the person ASAP.
All in all I am saying large amounts of reports in a short amount of time ins't a common occurrence...except when people decide to hurt others. 'This guy said I am wrong [about something I am wrong about] spam report him to mute him!'
I absolutely do not like giving power to the masses. The masses aren't always nice people hehe.
However any case of volunteer in game moderating requires a fair amount of work to develop and also has to be heavily discussed with lawyers to stay within the laws of every single locality.
However those are both reactive solutions. Think of this as the computer game equivilence to health care. You don't need the doctor to give you medicine if you don't get sick to begin with. It's better to stop Gold Spammers in ways which don't require them being muted or reported.
It's better to stop Gold Spammers in ways which don't require them being muted or reported.
You are asking for gold spammers to not spam? but that is what gold spammers do.
On a different level we have to ask ourselves about what it means to accrue a hoard of gold and loot and then one day decide to sell the account to which the lootz are bound. This practice might be against the current TOS, but so what? Who is cryptic to tell anyone what they can and cannot do with the data that represents themselves ingame? Yes they could ban someone for the practice but that does not mean it should not be done, merely that cryptic thinks it should not be done.
Are individual gold sellers, or those that trade, somehow different than organized groups of traders who use third parties outside of the games limited boundaries to negotiate their deals?
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
While it's not my thing, I have no problem for those who want to buy gold with RL money and the company offers a conversion just like ZEN works. A lot of stuff is bought with secondary currency exchanged with ZEN, why not primary?
You are asking for gold spammers to not spam? but that is what gold spammers do.
On a different level we have to ask ourselves about what it means to accrue a hoard of gold and loot and then one day decide to sell the account to which the lootz are bound. This practice might be against the current TOS, but so what? Who is cryptic to tell anyone what they can and cannot do with the data that represents themselves ingame? Yes they could ban someone for the practice but that does not mean it should not be done, merely that cryptic thinks it should not be done.
Are individual gold sellers, or those that trade, somehow different than organized groups of traders who use third parties outside of the games limited boundaries to negotiate their deals?
Most gold spammers are not reputable companies. Some have been involved in identity theft cases. Not a single one is left on ebay - they were all removed as scams. I'm actually very surprised that Paypal allows links on their sites. Apparently they will give one to anyone, provided Paypal gets a share of the money. Look up reviews of the sites.
I would provide links but I'm almost certain that providing a link naming a gold spammer, even if it is to a review or report that casts them in a negative light, is against forum regulation.
Also, the data ingame represents a contract that you sign with PWE and Cryptic that states that you do not own it, and cannot sell it.
Eventually there will be a market rate (established by high end raiding guilds) for gold in this game, once that is established all Cryptic has to do is undercut by about 50% or so and the gold spamming should stop, at least in theory.
Item duplication and other exploits would void the theory of course.
0
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
Eventually there will be a market rate (established by high end raiding guilds) for gold in this game, once that is established all Cryptic has to do is undercut by about 50% or so and the gold spamming should stop, at least in theory.
Item duplication and other exploits would void the theory of course.
And this is something that the developers have promised not to do: pay to win in the store.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
if i understood correctly, i think he is saying prevention is better than cure.
I'm shocked that had to be explained. Thanks Gil.
As for the difference between violating the Terms of Service and the reason it shouldn't be done...quite simple, because it shouldn't be done.
I care a great deal whether people buy success or not. If I stop playing a game my account remains in tact and in my possession if I ever decide to go back. I still have people begging me for accounts on other games, one in particular. I put a lot of work into those accounts and only those who put work in should have that work.
Some things are in the ToS for lackluster reasons but my favorite part of MMO's ToS is the very specific clause that dictates your account and property is the property of <developer company> and is leased to you, and only you. This essentially criminalizes, without compromise, the act of selling video games currency or accounts.
And above anything else I want nothing more than fair gameplay. Nothing will turn me off from a game more than players buying success with or without company endorsement. There are very few things I'm not compromising on but that is one of them. If you want to cheat go elsewhere. If the company doesn't stop cheating, I'll go elsewhere.
If someone posts something like "Got 10 epic doodle for anyone, first one to come gets it for free" or "kabookies for anyone willing to open this here chest". And you are talking about something from endgame content that nobody gets to see before actually getting there.
Is this exploiting ? Can players get power enhancing items without actually achieving ? Similarly, can transfer of items give an unfair advantage ?
There have been numerous fixes for exploits concerning transfers like bound items, limited inventory, level caps, etc. All of these seem out of the world, inadequate, constructed. Not realistic. These restrictions just don't exist in the real world. They are there because of the ingame economy. It's of the devil, i tell you. ban money !
GM tip jar in the cash shop. The community will be happy to pay for you to hire active GMs. And as they see the effect their donations make - whether it be through bot and goldspammer bans (make sure you announce bans in public channel) or GM led events - they will be happy to make repeated donations.
0
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
If there was a way to confirm that the money I gave to PWE went directly to in-game GMs and not to execs sitting at their desks trying to figure out how to make more money from the cash shop that would become exclusively where my money was spent in the store.
In-game GMs make the game a better environment to play in, execs running market tests and introducing pay2win items in the store to increase the profit margin ruin the game.
I'd be surprised if a large portion of the community didn't feel the same way as you do. Especially since this is D&D where the concept of the GM is so fundamental. Maybe have a running tally and set up goals for the tip jar and what happens when each goal is met. Sort of a twisted version of crowdfunding.
GM tip jar in the cash shop. The community will be happy to pay for you to hire active GMs. And as they see the effect their donations make - whether it be through bot and goldspammer bans (make sure you announce bans in public channel) or GM led events - they will be happy to make repeated donations.
It's funny you mention that; back in the day (around 79-80) I knew a guy who actually made a decent living as a DM in southern California, the game had exploded and there was fifty players for every DM back then...didn't last long though.
It's funny you mention that; back in the day (around 79-80) I knew a guy who actually made a decent living as a DM in southern California, the game had exploded and there was fifty players for every DM back then...didn't last long though.
I'll bet it was a great community while it lasted, tho.
Active in-game moderators almost always improve the environment around them: that's their purpose. I really can't see justification for not having them in every MMO. The only excuse is not wanting to cut into your profit margins.
I'll bet it was a great community while it lasted, tho.
Active in-game moderators almost always improve the environment around them: that's their purpose. I really can't see justification for not having them in every MMO. The only excuse is not wanting to cut into your profit margins.
Yeah they use to be great in EQ...but the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> factor made being a active moderator less and less appealing, but yeah it was a great D&D group I learned a lot about being a DM from that guy.
As for the difference between violating the Terms of Service and the reason it shouldn't be done...quite simple, because it shouldn't be done.
I care a great deal whether people buy success or not. If I stop playing a game my account remains in tact and in my possession if I ever decide to go back. I still have people begging me for accounts on other games, one in particular. I put a lot of work into those accounts and only those who put work in should have that work.
Some things are in the ToS for lackluster reasons but my favorite part of MMO's ToS is the very specific clause that dictates your account and property is the property of <developer company> and is leased to you, and only you. This essentially criminalizes, without compromise, the act of selling video games currency or accounts.
Criminalize is a strong word, violating a random servers TOS is not a criminal act.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Now understand that in many, if not all, MMO's you do not own any property. By making an account you agree that everything on your account, every character and every single pixel belongs to the game developers. You own nothing.
Then you profit off the sale of the game's virtual goods which do not, by the Terms of Service you agreed to, belong to you. That was just the first case I have heard ruling virtual property has value but it wasn't the last.
So, it very much can be criminal. That's not just a violation of the Terms of Service, it's theft depending on who's behind the gavel and where that court room is located.
I'll bet it was a great community while it lasted, tho.
Active in-game moderators almost always improve the environment around them: that's their purpose. I really can't see justification for not having them in every MMO. The only excuse is not wanting to cut into your profit margins.
Yeah they use to be great in EQ...but the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> factor made being a active moderator less and less appealing, but yeah it was a great D&D group I learned a lot about being a DM from that guy.
As someone who has seen this from the other side of the fence so to speak, as an EQ Server GM, I have to agree completely. For years now I have made posts here and there on the various Cryptic forums trying to impress upon them how much of a positive effect can be generated from even the smallest gestures of an active ingame GM system. It's is my belief that since ingame mail systems were introduced and various MMOs shifted to their use to resolve issues that, in almost every single case, the customers have suffered for it in some way. Let me put it out there like this...
My Typical GM Day. 1. Log in. 2. Read tickets
-Now while reading tickets sometimes I would just sit against a building, in plain view if the load wasn't too terribly bad, with my differently colored name and pretty sparkly armor. Now people, mostly newbies because I would typically hang out near newbie zones to help field questions and such, would walk up and most of them were quite polite...some of them even sparked up some RP(I had a bad/good habit of rewarding RPers with unobtainable ingame useless fluff items from time to time...like magic cakes). The point in this step is that a GM was visible ingame which, with very very little effort shows an ingame presence and boosts belief in the company caring about it's game as well as overall community morale. 3. Teleport around and help people with their tickets.
-It's one thing to reply to a mail, which alot of the time in Cryptic-ese means a "canned reply" which may or may not have anything at all to do with your actual issue and may or may not be useful to you at all. In many cases it will take you 1-4 tickets and weeks to get a proper resolution...if anything at all. No, in the old days I appeared before you in a twinkle of fireworks and awesomeness, announced my name, and offered to help you with my mighty GM powers. In most cases....I did actually help you before we parted company. 4. Handle the "Undesirables" who have been reported.
-We're SOE. I you were doing something abusive, exploitive, stalkerish, rascist, or just plain terrible...odds are you were going to see me and I was not going to be pleased with you. Now the key to handling a situation like this, IMO, is to use tact and proper "GM-Speak" so you don't just show up in front of some idiot and...well...call them an idiot. You sternly explain the violations and usually either warn, insta-edit(like a name change), suspend, or Almighty Banhammer them. The point here is that when the playerbase, through word of mouth or just happening to be in the right place to witness it, learn of this kind of thing they know the company takes their game serious and will not tolerate this type of thing. Now in Champions Online, as a counterpoint, there have been very well documented cases of various cash and other types of exploits where after a few months the problem was handled from a mechanics point of view...but the offenders got off scott free...and then they told their friends. I have heard, on multiple occasions from complete strangers, that we can do anything we want to do in CO...because nobody ever gets caught or punished. it takes very extreme cases of rascism and other vile vile actions to lead to anything happening to you in CO..and I am, in all these years, only personally aware of one case of such....one case. 5. If the workload gets a lil "slow" then you go hang out in a town somewhere.
-Ok, this is where the fun starts. I'd go to a town like the Halfling town, turn on my GM-invis, and just look around for a lil bit. So there's maybe 10ish newbies running around smacking spiders and rats. With out GM Powers we have various semi-scripted(more like RP outlined) "events" which we can run. The example I like to use is "The Werewolf Raid." I go to the corner of the zone away from other people, turn into a named werewolf, summon 4-5(depending on numbers) other werewolves, make some cheesy zonechat dialogue about how we're going to ransack this town and murder everyone we see....then I attack. The NPCs will run with me and branch off to attack others. It's a good 10-15m fight and alot of zerging. Depending on the fun levels I may spawn more werewolves. When it all done and said I "coincidentally" show up in the middle of town as my GM character, apologize for not making there "in time", make a small speech about the heroism of those who rose to the challenge blah blah blah, and then I usually hand out various "level appropriate, but usually non-obtainable ingame" items to those who participated. The best stuff, of course, going to the most valiant/entertaining.
Now this little event, and many others like it, is cute and may not sound like that much in all honesty. And really, it's not that much work on my part at all to be honest....BUT 3-4 days later I would be in the same zone GM-invis and hear the players telling the heroic story either in a circle in town or in zonechat. Other people would be amazed and think the story was cool. I may not do another event like this for a week...but the seeds have been sown. You cannot buy this kind of simple word of mouth positive PR. It's not just ingame either. These people will tell their friends who may try out the game too. I know when I was just a player and we encountered a similar "Bandit event" I told my friends who missed it about it the next day and some of them did trials to see what we were going on and on about.
Over the years I have had the fortune of encountering, usually on PTS, some of Cryptic's GMs or X-GMs(who were promoted to other positions) and had a chat here and there. I've also talked with various X-CRs about various things. Basically I boil the problem down to three things.
1. Lack of actual GMs.
2a. GMs lack actual GM Powers(what most of us would consider GM Powers....are Dev Powers and Devs should not be ingame policing things...they should be making things like...well...Devs.)
2b. GMs tend to lack actual ingame knowledge and ability to play(In my experience we had to have max level toons and know how to play the game. It just makes helping people that much easier when you know the jargon and can relate to their problems)
3. The current ingame mail "canned reply" GM System where most GMs sign anonymously(not all, mind you) and seem to have no real incentive to actually provide helpful assistance in a timely fashion is grossly unacceptable(in my days if I didn't get to a ticket in a week or longer....I would expect to be canned for not doing my job).
Ok, that's the basic giant longwinded nutshell. This isn't the 1st time I've typed this out and if you took the time to actually read this monster then thank you and I hope my experiences will, in some small way, assist you in making your game a more pleasurable experience. However, having said that and experienced Cryptic Games in the past, I seriously doubt anything will change. You should be ready to expect a few months of solid GM-work before the bus goes over the proverbial cliff and you're in the mail zone with the rest of us. As usual, after a statement like that, I hope to be proven wrong(I spend a lot of time hoping for this and you know what they say about that).
TL/DR: The Cryptic GM System could grow by leaps and bounds to be what many "MMO Vets" would consider "average" but, when it's all said and done, I seriously doubt it's going to happen. Good luck though.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
0
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited December 2012
When I first started playing CoH GMs had characters as avatars and would show up in town and sometimes in dungeons.
When you put in a ticket, you didn't get a canned response. A GM showed up right there, in front of you, and helped you with the quest, even if it meant he had to go kick something's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
GW2 gms often go on raids with the players and compete against them in special events.
Actually, the Matrix Online GMs (lol yeah I went there) were extremely involved with the community and would play as raid bosses and as mobs in zone special events.
Crosschan, thanks for your post. It was cool reading about the experiences of a EQ GM. I had good and bad encounters withGM's during my time on EQ, I recall the cool sparkling weapons and armor way before those effects became part of MMOs. You guys did good stuff despite being part of the evil Sony machine!
Really wish Cryptic would consider adding volunteer GM aids to NWO, but apparently they refuse to entertain the idea. IMO it would only help the game, but what do I know eh?
1. Lack of actual GMs.
2a. GMs lack actual GM Powers(what most of us would consider GM Powers....are Dev Powers and Devs should not be ingame policing things...they should be making things like...well...Devs.)
2b. GMs tend to lack actual ingame knowledge and ability to play(In my experience we had to have max level toons and know how to play the game. It just makes helping people that much easier when you know the jargon and can relate to their problems)
3. The current ingame mail "canned reply" GM System where most GMs sign anonymously(not all, mind you) and seem to have no real incentive to actually provide helpful assistance in a timely fashion is grossly unacceptable(in my days if I didn't get to a ticket in a week or longer....I would expect to be canned for not doing my job).
Lead GM for Neverwinter here.
I've been playing and learning the game for months now, and actually have some guides written for when the game launches. So there will be no lack of in-game knowledge as far as gameplay goes.
Most tickets are answered and resolved within a few days, barring extreme circumstances or holidays. Keep in mind that our hours are between 10am and 7pm Pacific, Monday-Friday.
We unfortunately cannot always be in game, but I personally try to be in game at least a little bit several times a week because it DOES show that we care (plus it's wonderfully fun talking to players).
As far as playing with/raiding as a GM- Not gonna happen. The cries of GM favoritism would be deafening!
I love events, and I'm thinking of a few interesting ones to pitch once the game actually launches
I can't detail the specifics of our GM powers, but suffice it to say we'll have plenty.
I know it's all well and good to say all this, and words are wind- it's my hope to be able to prove to the community that I'm passionate about this game, and about this community.
Back on the topic of Gold Spammers, the fact that this is now 18 pages long and VERY constructive is impressive! The feedback and ideas here are awesome, and I'll definitely be bringing this issue up again at the next meeting. We have some great ideas for how to address this (that I can't discuss yet- sorry!) issue.
Thank you all for being such an awesome community- keep the suggestions and feedback coming!
That sounds amazing and I wish you well on your ambition and preperation. If you are as successful as your post sounds like you should be with this then all I ask is that you yank some people from the other Cryptic Games into the room and bring them up to this level....and then please give them back, of course. :cool:
I wouldn't expect the GMs to raid or actually play ingame with the players because, yes, I can see the issues it would generate. In the games I play, however, this does sometimes happen with the CR. I actually ran some content with our CR last night. It was fun.
From what you covered in your post I would only suggest that, as a better means of checks and balances(if you aren't planning to do so already), that you have all ticket replies be actually signed and not go anonymous. This would cut down on the forum posts and such, which we have to some degree in the other games, that accuse the CS/GM team of being automated bot programs.
Back on the topic of Gold Spammers...if you are successful in presenting a case to your bosses for a better system than the current one used in Cryptic Games, which is very very easy to exploit and there is much forum documentation to support this, then perhaps you could get the system removed from all games since it's shared. Currently, in CO for example, we have Dev Confirmation that the system is "Working as Intended" and that they have no plans to remove it....despite the damage it does. BTW, you don't have to worry about replying with specifics on this point....it tends to terrify Cryptic Employees for obvious and understandable reasons.
In closing, I'm just kinda floored you replied at all. Especially in such a precise and specific manner. If this is a sign of what's to come then it's a positive sign.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
0
runamonkMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
Some of the GM events on The Nameless were the most fun we had. We had awesome GM's. Nothing like having 3 Sand Giants running around Oasis (Mom, Dad and Baby of course) divuting people until they are finally taken down.
I seriously hope they have some interesting stuff like this and not just during holidays. Just random fun is good stuff!
As someone who has seen this from the other side of the fence so to speak, as an EQ Server GM, I have to agree completely. For years now I have made posts here and there on the various Cryptic forums trying to impress upon them how much of a positive effect can be generated from even the smallest gestures of an active ingame GM system. It's is my belief that since ingame mail systems were introduced and various MMOs shifted to their use to resolve issues that, in almost every single case, the customers have suffered for it in some way. Let me put it out there like this...
My Typical GM Day. 1. Log in. 2. Read tickets
-Now while reading tickets sometimes I would just sit against a building, in plain view if the load wasn't too terribly bad, with my differently colored name and pretty sparkly armor. Now people, mostly newbies because I would typically hang out near newbie zones to help field questions and such, would walk up and most of them were quite polite...some of them even sparked up some RP(I had a bad/good habit of rewarding RPers with unobtainable ingame useless fluff items from time to time...like magic cakes). The point in this step is that a GM was visible ingame which, with very very little effort shows an ingame presence and boosts belief in the company caring about it's game as well as overall community morale. 3. Teleport around and help people with their tickets.
-It's one thing to reply to a mail, which alot of the time in Cryptic-ese means a "canned reply" which may or may not have anything at all to do with your actual issue and may or may not be useful to you at all. In many cases it will take you 1-4 tickets and weeks to get a proper resolution...if anything at all. No, in the old days I appeared before you in a twinkle of fireworks and awesomeness, announced my name, and offered to help you with my mighty GM powers. In most cases....I did actually help you before we parted company. 4. Handle the "Undesirables" who have been reported.
-We're SOE. I you were doing something abusive, exploitive, stalkerish, rascist, or just plain terrible...odds are you were going to see me and I was not going to be pleased with you. Now the key to handling a situation like this, IMO, is to use tact and proper "GM-Speak" so you don't just show up in front of some idiot and...well...call them an idiot. You sternly explain the violations and usually either warn, insta-edit(like a name change), suspend, or Almighty Banhammer them. The point here is that when the playerbase, through word of mouth or just happening to be in the right place to witness it, learn of this kind of thing they know the company takes their game serious and will not tolerate this type of thing. Now in Champions Online, as a counterpoint, there have been very well documented cases of various cash and other types of exploits where after a few months the problem was handled from a mechanics point of view...but the offenders got off scott free...and then they told their friends. I have heard, on multiple occasions from complete strangers, that we can do anything we want to do in CO...because nobody ever gets caught or punished. it takes very extreme cases of rascism and other vile vile actions to lead to anything happening to you in CO..and I am, in all these years, only personally aware of one case of such....one case. 5. If the workload gets a lil "slow" then you go hang out in a town somewhere.
-Ok, this is where the fun starts. I'd go to a town like the Halfling town, turn on my GM-invis, and just look around for a lil bit. So there's maybe 10ish newbies running around smacking spiders and rats. With out GM Powers we have various semi-scripted(more like RP outlined) "events" which we can run. The example I like to use is "The Werewolf Raid." I go to the corner of the zone away from other people, turn into a named werewolf, summon 4-5(depending on numbers) other werewolves, make some cheesy zonechat dialogue about how we're going to ransack this town and murder everyone we see....then I attack. The NPCs will run with me and branch off to attack others. It's a good 10-15m fight and alot of zerging. Depending on the fun levels I may spawn more werewolves. When it all done and said I "coincidentally" show up in the middle of town as my GM character, apologize for not making there "in time", make a small speech about the heroism of those who rose to the challenge blah blah blah, and then I usually hand out various "level appropriate, but usually non-obtainable ingame" items to those who participated. The best stuff, of course, going to the most valiant/entertaining.
Now this little event, and many others like it, is cute and may not sound like that much in all honesty. And really, it's not that much work on my part at all to be honest....BUT 3-4 days later I would be in the same zone GM-invis and hear the players telling the heroic story either in a circle in town or in zonechat. Other people would be amazed and think the story was cool. I may not do another event like this for a week...but the seeds have been sown. You cannot buy this kind of simple word of mouth positive PR. It's not just ingame either. These people will tell their friends who may try out the game too. I know when I was just a player and we encountered a similar "Bandit event" I told my friends who missed it about it the next day and some of them did trials to see what we were going on and on about.
Over the years I have had the fortune of encountering, usually on PTS, some of Cryptic's GMs or X-GMs(who were promoted to other positions) and had a chat here and there. I've also talked with various X-CRs about various things. Basically I boil the problem down to three things.
1. Lack of actual GMs.
2a. GMs lack actual GM Powers(what most of us would consider GM Powers....are Dev Powers and Devs should not be ingame policing things...they should be making things like...well...Devs.)
2b. GMs tend to lack actual ingame knowledge and ability to play(In my experience we had to have max level toons and know how to play the game. It just makes helping people that much easier when you know the jargon and can relate to their problems)
3. The current ingame mail "canned reply" GM System where most GMs sign anonymously(not all, mind you) and seem to have no real incentive to actually provide helpful assistance in a timely fashion is grossly unacceptable(in my days if I didn't get to a ticket in a week or longer....I would expect to be canned for not doing my job).
Ok, that's the basic giant longwinded nutshell. This isn't the 1st time I've typed this out and if you took the time to actually read this monster then thank you and I hope my experiences will, in some small way, assist you in making your game a more pleasurable experience. However, having said that and experienced Cryptic Games in the past, I seriously doubt anything will change. You should be ready to expect a few months of solid GM-work before the bus goes over the proverbial cliff and you're in the mail zone with the rest of us. As usual, after a statement like that, I hope to be proven wrong(I spend a lot of time hoping for this and you know what they say about that).
TL/DR: The Cryptic GM System could grow by leaps and bounds to be what many "MMO Vets" would consider "average" but, when it's all said and done, I seriously doubt it's going to happen. Good luck though.
I've been playing and learning the game for months now, and actually have some guides written for when the game launches. So there will be no lack of in-game knowledge as far as gameplay goes.....
It was very heartening to read your post. If a level headed and motivated person like you is GM, I will be cheering you on
EDIT:
Just checked on Raiderz forums. One thing they don't have is the ability to right click a spammer and report him her (They have to type the name). The spammers are using that.
it does take a little bit of work , but will work 100% , yes 100% of the time.
**********************
1. Screenshot the gold seller spam.
2. open up the mspaint from your pc, or w/e it is on mac. ( Win7 has it as a palate icon )
3. center on the bot's spam.
4. ZOOM IN TWICE ( or more for people with poor vision) , and re-center in on the bot's spam, and you will see the following ....
here is how you tell ......
5. When you zoom in 2 times or more , the letters begin to split into what seems to be 3 shades/colors.
lower case L , has ' Light grey -> white -> dark grey '
capital i , has ' Light grey -> white -> Light grey '
6. figure out the name , and then block ingame. ALL DONE !!!!
....
I hope cryptic has ability to rightclick and report a person for spam and block him/her (like CO and STO). In that case, we already have a much better system in place.
I've been playing and learning the game for months now, and actually have some guides written for when the game launches. So there will be no lack of in-game knowledge as far as gameplay goes.
Most tickets are answered and resolved within a few days, barring extreme circumstances or holidays. Keep in mind that our hours are between 10am and 7pm Pacific, Monday-Friday.
We unfortunately cannot always be in game, but I personally try to be in game at least a little bit several times a week because it DOES show that we care (plus it's wonderfully fun talking to players).
As far as playing with/raiding as a GM- Not gonna happen. The cries of GM favoritism would be deafening!
I love events, and I'm thinking of a few interesting ones to pitch once the game actually launches
I can't detail the specifics of our GM powers, but suffice it to say we'll have plenty.
I know it's all well and good to say all this, and words are wind- it's my hope to be able to prove to the community that I'm passionate about this game, and about this community.
Back on the topic of Gold Spammers, the fact that this is now 18 pages long and VERY constructive is impressive! The feedback and ideas here are awesome, and I'll definitely be bringing this issue up again at the next meeting. We have some great ideas for how to address this (that I can't discuss yet- sorry!) issue.
Thank you all for being such an awesome community- keep the suggestions and feedback coming!
Wow..this is amazing it's exactly what the community is looking for thanks for taking the time out to stop by.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
And that's why she's LEAD GM folks!
Hey Mel, how about forcing caught gold spammers characters to permanently dance a la Otto's Irresistible Dance with no chat functions until they delete?
Oh darn, the alts wouldn't dance, would they? Just keep planning what you'd normally do then
...
Hey Mel, how about forcing caught gold spammers characters to permanently dance a la Otto's Irresistible Dance with no chat functions until they delete?
...
+1.
If this were done to me by mistake, it wouldn't feel that bad as I would be busy sending PM to my friends to show it off...
PM isn't included in chat right?
EDIT:
bah forget it, can't find a decent link ...
0
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited December 2012
Hey Mel - what's your favorite class so far?
How big of a GM team are you looking at for Neverwinter? At least 1 gm being logged in from 10am to 7pm monday-friday?
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
Yeah, when we do get to play, if you see her, give her a hug and a big thank you!
Comments
I don't really like the idea of weighing reports. Let's say I walk into an area and there is a Gold Spammer and I report them. Not to say I don't want the game to be popular but I don't think there would be 19, let alone 39, other people who would report them within a few minutes. Many people, sad to say, simply do not report people no matter what. Those that do likely are not to all abandon everything else to report the person ASAP.
All in all I am saying large amounts of reports in a short amount of time ins't a common occurrence...except when people decide to hurt others. 'This guy said I am wrong [about something I am wrong about] spam report him to mute him!'
I absolutely do not like giving power to the masses. The masses aren't always nice people hehe.
However any case of volunteer in game moderating requires a fair amount of work to develop and also has to be heavily discussed with lawyers to stay within the laws of every single locality.
However those are both reactive solutions. Think of this as the computer game equivilence to health care. You don't need the doctor to give you medicine if you don't get sick to begin with. It's better to stop Gold Spammers in ways which don't require them being muted or reported.
What if you post Mahna Mahna instead?
Well, that backfired, now *I* can't get it out of *my* head!
Do, dooo, do, do ,do.....
You are asking for gold spammers to not spam? but that is what gold spammers do.
On a different level we have to ask ourselves about what it means to accrue a hoard of gold and loot and then one day decide to sell the account to which the lootz are bound. This practice might be against the current TOS, but so what? Who is cryptic to tell anyone what they can and cannot do with the data that represents themselves ingame? Yes they could ban someone for the practice but that does not mean it should not be done, merely that cryptic thinks it should not be done.
Are individual gold sellers, or those that trade, somehow different than organized groups of traders who use third parties outside of the games limited boundaries to negotiate their deals?
Most gold spammers are not reputable companies. Some have been involved in identity theft cases. Not a single one is left on ebay - they were all removed as scams. I'm actually very surprised that Paypal allows links on their sites. Apparently they will give one to anyone, provided Paypal gets a share of the money. Look up reviews of the sites.
I would provide links but I'm almost certain that providing a link naming a gold spammer, even if it is to a review or report that casts them in a negative light, is against forum regulation.
Also, the data ingame represents a contract that you sign with PWE and Cryptic that states that you do not own it, and cannot sell it.
Item duplication and other exploits would void the theory of course.
And this is something that the developers have promised not to do: pay to win in the store.
I'm shocked that had to be explained. Thanks Gil.
As for the difference between violating the Terms of Service and the reason it shouldn't be done...quite simple, because it shouldn't be done.
I care a great deal whether people buy success or not. If I stop playing a game my account remains in tact and in my possession if I ever decide to go back. I still have people begging me for accounts on other games, one in particular. I put a lot of work into those accounts and only those who put work in should have that work.
Some things are in the ToS for lackluster reasons but my favorite part of MMO's ToS is the very specific clause that dictates your account and property is the property of <developer company> and is leased to you, and only you. This essentially criminalizes, without compromise, the act of selling video games currency or accounts.
And above anything else I want nothing more than fair gameplay. Nothing will turn me off from a game more than players buying success with or without company endorsement. There are very few things I'm not compromising on but that is one of them. If you want to cheat go elsewhere. If the company doesn't stop cheating, I'll go elsewhere.
If someone posts something like "Got 10 epic doodle for anyone, first one to come gets it for free" or "kabookies for anyone willing to open this here chest". And you are talking about something from endgame content that nobody gets to see before actually getting there.
Is this exploiting ? Can players get power enhancing items without actually achieving ? Similarly, can transfer of items give an unfair advantage ?
There have been numerous fixes for exploits concerning transfers like bound items, limited inventory, level caps, etc. All of these seem out of the world, inadequate, constructed. Not realistic. These restrictions just don't exist in the real world. They are there because of the ingame economy. It's of the devil, i tell you. ban money !
If there was a way to confirm that the money I gave to PWE went directly to in-game GMs and not to execs sitting at their desks trying to figure out how to make more money from the cash shop that would become exclusively where my money was spent in the store.
In-game GMs make the game a better environment to play in, execs running market tests and introducing pay2win items in the store to increase the profit margin ruin the game.
It's funny you mention that; back in the day (around 79-80) I knew a guy who actually made a decent living as a DM in southern California, the game had exploded and there was fifty players for every DM back then...didn't last long though.
I'll bet it was a great community while it lasted, tho.
Active in-game moderators almost always improve the environment around them: that's their purpose. I really can't see justification for not having them in every MMO. The only excuse is not wanting to cut into your profit margins.
Yeah they use to be great in EQ...but the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> factor made being a active moderator less and less appealing, but yeah it was a great D&D group I learned a lot about being a DM from that guy.
Criminalize is a strong word, violating a random servers TOS is not a criminal act.
Now understand that in many, if not all, MMO's you do not own any property. By making an account you agree that everything on your account, every character and every single pixel belongs to the game developers. You own nothing.
Then you profit off the sale of the game's virtual goods which do not, by the Terms of Service you agreed to, belong to you. That was just the first case I have heard ruling virtual property has value but it wasn't the last.
So, it very much can be criminal. That's not just a violation of the Terms of Service, it's theft depending on who's behind the gavel and where that court room is located.
As someone who has seen this from the other side of the fence so to speak, as an EQ Server GM, I have to agree completely. For years now I have made posts here and there on the various Cryptic forums trying to impress upon them how much of a positive effect can be generated from even the smallest gestures of an active ingame GM system. It's is my belief that since ingame mail systems were introduced and various MMOs shifted to their use to resolve issues that, in almost every single case, the customers have suffered for it in some way. Let me put it out there like this...
My Typical GM Day.
1. Log in.
2. Read tickets
-Now while reading tickets sometimes I would just sit against a building, in plain view if the load wasn't too terribly bad, with my differently colored name and pretty sparkly armor. Now people, mostly newbies because I would typically hang out near newbie zones to help field questions and such, would walk up and most of them were quite polite...some of them even sparked up some RP(I had a bad/good habit of rewarding RPers with unobtainable ingame useless fluff items from time to time...like magic cakes). The point in this step is that a GM was visible ingame which, with very very little effort shows an ingame presence and boosts belief in the company caring about it's game as well as overall community morale.
3. Teleport around and help people with their tickets.
-It's one thing to reply to a mail, which alot of the time in Cryptic-ese means a "canned reply" which may or may not have anything at all to do with your actual issue and may or may not be useful to you at all. In many cases it will take you 1-4 tickets and weeks to get a proper resolution...if anything at all. No, in the old days I appeared before you in a twinkle of fireworks and awesomeness, announced my name, and offered to help you with my mighty GM powers. In most cases....I did actually help you before we parted company.
4. Handle the "Undesirables" who have been reported.
-We're SOE. I you were doing something abusive, exploitive, stalkerish, rascist, or just plain terrible...odds are you were going to see me and I was not going to be pleased with you. Now the key to handling a situation like this, IMO, is to use tact and proper "GM-Speak" so you don't just show up in front of some idiot and...well...call them an idiot. You sternly explain the violations and usually either warn, insta-edit(like a name change), suspend, or Almighty Banhammer them. The point here is that when the playerbase, through word of mouth or just happening to be in the right place to witness it, learn of this kind of thing they know the company takes their game serious and will not tolerate this type of thing. Now in Champions Online, as a counterpoint, there have been very well documented cases of various cash and other types of exploits where after a few months the problem was handled from a mechanics point of view...but the offenders got off scott free...and then they told their friends. I have heard, on multiple occasions from complete strangers, that we can do anything we want to do in CO...because nobody ever gets caught or punished. it takes very extreme cases of rascism and other vile vile actions to lead to anything happening to you in CO..and I am, in all these years, only personally aware of one case of such....one case.
5. If the workload gets a lil "slow" then you go hang out in a town somewhere.
-Ok, this is where the fun starts. I'd go to a town like the Halfling town, turn on my GM-invis, and just look around for a lil bit. So there's maybe 10ish newbies running around smacking spiders and rats. With out GM Powers we have various semi-scripted(more like RP outlined) "events" which we can run. The example I like to use is "The Werewolf Raid." I go to the corner of the zone away from other people, turn into a named werewolf, summon 4-5(depending on numbers) other werewolves, make some cheesy zonechat dialogue about how we're going to ransack this town and murder everyone we see....then I attack. The NPCs will run with me and branch off to attack others. It's a good 10-15m fight and alot of zerging. Depending on the fun levels I may spawn more werewolves. When it all done and said I "coincidentally" show up in the middle of town as my GM character, apologize for not making there "in time", make a small speech about the heroism of those who rose to the challenge blah blah blah, and then I usually hand out various "level appropriate, but usually non-obtainable ingame" items to those who participated. The best stuff, of course, going to the most valiant/entertaining.
Now this little event, and many others like it, is cute and may not sound like that much in all honesty. And really, it's not that much work on my part at all to be honest....BUT 3-4 days later I would be in the same zone GM-invis and hear the players telling the heroic story either in a circle in town or in zonechat. Other people would be amazed and think the story was cool. I may not do another event like this for a week...but the seeds have been sown. You cannot buy this kind of simple word of mouth positive PR. It's not just ingame either. These people will tell their friends who may try out the game too. I know when I was just a player and we encountered a similar "Bandit event" I told my friends who missed it about it the next day and some of them did trials to see what we were going on and on about.
Over the years I have had the fortune of encountering, usually on PTS, some of Cryptic's GMs or X-GMs(who were promoted to other positions) and had a chat here and there. I've also talked with various X-CRs about various things. Basically I boil the problem down to three things.
1. Lack of actual GMs.
2a. GMs lack actual GM Powers(what most of us would consider GM Powers....are Dev Powers and Devs should not be ingame policing things...they should be making things like...well...Devs.)
2b. GMs tend to lack actual ingame knowledge and ability to play(In my experience we had to have max level toons and know how to play the game. It just makes helping people that much easier when you know the jargon and can relate to their problems)
3. The current ingame mail "canned reply" GM System where most GMs sign anonymously(not all, mind you) and seem to have no real incentive to actually provide helpful assistance in a timely fashion is grossly unacceptable(in my days if I didn't get to a ticket in a week or longer....I would expect to be canned for not doing my job).
Ok, that's the basic giant longwinded nutshell. This isn't the 1st time I've typed this out and if you took the time to actually read this monster then thank you and I hope my experiences will, in some small way, assist you in making your game a more pleasurable experience. However, having said that and experienced Cryptic Games in the past, I seriously doubt anything will change. You should be ready to expect a few months of solid GM-work before the bus goes over the proverbial cliff and you're in the mail zone with the rest of us. As usual, after a statement like that, I hope to be proven wrong(I spend a lot of time hoping for this and you know what they say about that).
TL/DR: The Cryptic GM System could grow by leaps and bounds to be what many "MMO Vets" would consider "average" but, when it's all said and done, I seriously doubt it's going to happen. Good luck though.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
When you put in a ticket, you didn't get a canned response. A GM showed up right there, in front of you, and helped you with the quest, even if it meant he had to go kick something's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
GW2 gms often go on raids with the players and compete against them in special events.
Actually, the Matrix Online GMs (lol yeah I went there) were extremely involved with the community and would play as raid bosses and as mobs in zone special events.
Really wish Cryptic would consider adding volunteer GM aids to NWO, but apparently they refuse to entertain the idea. IMO it would only help the game, but what do I know eh?
Lead GM for Neverwinter here.
I've been playing and learning the game for months now, and actually have some guides written for when the game launches. So there will be no lack of in-game knowledge as far as gameplay goes.
Most tickets are answered and resolved within a few days, barring extreme circumstances or holidays. Keep in mind that our hours are between 10am and 7pm Pacific, Monday-Friday.
We unfortunately cannot always be in game, but I personally try to be in game at least a little bit several times a week because it DOES show that we care (plus it's wonderfully fun talking to players).
As far as playing with/raiding as a GM- Not gonna happen. The cries of GM favoritism would be deafening!
I love events, and I'm thinking of a few interesting ones to pitch once the game actually launches
I can't detail the specifics of our GM powers, but suffice it to say we'll have plenty.
I know it's all well and good to say all this, and words are wind- it's my hope to be able to prove to the community that I'm passionate about this game, and about this community.
Back on the topic of Gold Spammers, the fact that this is now 18 pages long and VERY constructive is impressive! The feedback and ideas here are awesome, and I'll definitely be bringing this issue up again at the next meeting. We have some great ideas for how to address this (that I can't discuss yet- sorry!) issue.
Thank you all for being such an awesome community- keep the suggestions and feedback coming!
@Effreet in game
Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct. Learn them, Love them
I wouldn't expect the GMs to raid or actually play ingame with the players because, yes, I can see the issues it would generate. In the games I play, however, this does sometimes happen with the CR. I actually ran some content with our CR last night. It was fun.
From what you covered in your post I would only suggest that, as a better means of checks and balances(if you aren't planning to do so already), that you have all ticket replies be actually signed and not go anonymous. This would cut down on the forum posts and such, which we have to some degree in the other games, that accuse the CS/GM team of being automated bot programs.
Back on the topic of Gold Spammers...if you are successful in presenting a case to your bosses for a better system than the current one used in Cryptic Games, which is very very easy to exploit and there is much forum documentation to support this, then perhaps you could get the system removed from all games since it's shared. Currently, in CO for example, we have Dev Confirmation that the system is "Working as Intended" and that they have no plans to remove it....despite the damage it does. BTW, you don't have to worry about replying with specifics on this point....it tends to terrify Cryptic Employees for obvious and understandable reasons.
In closing, I'm just kinda floored you replied at all. Especially in such a precise and specific manner. If this is a sign of what's to come then it's a positive sign.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
I seriously hope they have some interesting stuff like this and not just during holidays. Just random fun is good stuff!
It was very heartening to read your post. If a level headed and motivated person like you is GM, I will be cheering you on
EDIT:
Just checked on Raiderz forums. One thing they don't have is the ability to right click a spammer and report him her (They have to type the name). The spammers are using that.
It even leads to posts of this kind:-
I hope cryptic has ability to rightclick and report a person for spam and block him/her (like CO and STO). In that case, we already have a much better system in place.
Wow..this is amazing it's exactly what the community is looking for thanks for taking the time out to stop by.
Hey Mel, how about forcing caught gold spammers characters to permanently dance a la Otto's Irresistible Dance with no chat functions until they delete?
Oh darn, the alts wouldn't dance, would they? Just keep planning what you'd normally do then
+1.
If this were done to me by mistake, it wouldn't feel that bad as I would be busy sending PM to my friends to show it off...
PM isn't included in chat right?
EDIT:
bah forget it, can't find a decent link ...
How big of a GM team are you looking at for Neverwinter? At least 1 gm being logged in from 10am to 7pm monday-friday?