Thanks for the explanation. Might I offer a quick suggestion?
Can you return it to the form where it proc'd 20% of the time on ALL damage, and keep the ITC? Because the unfortunate side effect now is that abilities that increase critical strike and crit severity are substantially less valuable to SS CWs since that expected 18% of our damage comes from a source that can't crit. What this is unfortunately going to do is reduce how well Storm Spell scales as gear (and power) levels increase, since apart from getting a buff from power, there's no other stat that's going to help inherently scale the power of Storm Spell, so as characters get more powerful (especially by adding critical strike and crit severity), Storm Spell will become inherently less powerful.
If you remember way, way, way back when you guys were testing the Master of Flame paragon path, Smolder couldn't crit. And I pointed out how this effect throttles the ability to grow in power, given that it's a key feature of the paragon path. I think you probably have the same issue with Storm Spell now.
I agree, at 30-40% of a person's damage, it was way too powerful, but I think there's a more elegant way to cut back on that damage, while still making sure Storm Spell remains a viable choice as a passive as gear and power levels escalate.
While your at it can you please allow Deep Gash to crit again!
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Yup. This. Classes get nerfed, then buffed, then nerfed. I could literally write a book about ALLL the nerfs then buffs but its pointless.
If CWs start under-performing itll be very clear very quickly and they will address it in the next few modules/months.
Itll be very funny now because this will really separate the good from the bad CWs out there. While I do feel for my CW brothers and sisters out there, this was a MUCH needed change.
Think of it this way, SS HAD to be nerfed for them to look at other areas of the class to be buffed. SS was honestly a crutch for many other areas that could be addressed and brought up but with CWs ALL using SS and ALL relying on it, you cant really buff anything if the class is performing THAT well because of ONE feat....
CWs have never felt the pain of a real nerf yet, when you are doing less damage than the GF tank (See GWF and TR) then we will feel for you. In time CWs will be top dogs again, it is the way of the mmo.
No it is a class feat that like Spell Storm was broken and critted 100% of the time. The fix was 0% crit for a class that lives and dies on crits. What people do not realize is GWF non-crit (yellow numbers) are so low we (GWFs) refuse to talk about them kind of like fight club!
CWs have never felt the pain of a real nerf yet, when you are doing less damage than the GF tank (See GWF and TR) then we will feel for you. In time CWs will be top dogs again, it is the way of the mmo.
Yeah i mean if you are a really terrible terrible GWF then sure a GF will out damage you.
Yeah i mean if you are a really terrible terrible GWF then sure a GF will out damage you.
In MOD 1 & 2 the GWF class was just a mess and was nearly extinct. We did absolutely terrible dps and could not stay alive. The TRs in the beginning could out dps anyone and everyone regardless of gear and spec then got nerfed into the ground. CWs have had some changes but nothing drastic as these.
In MOD 1 & 2 the GWF class was just a mess and was nearly extinct. We did absolutely terrible dps and could not stay alive. The TRs in the beginning could out dps anyone and everyone regardless of gear and spec then got nerfed into the ground. CWs have had some changes but nothing drastic as these.
Well yeah thats true, but TR **** on everyone back then.
We'll put on our +4 INT or +2INT/+2CHA belts and then we'll see who really cries.
We dont have to. GWFs dont cry. Only CWs cry over OP TRs, OP Palas, OP DCs, "gettin one shotted from Mobs", "not tanky enough"..etc...etc...etc....check the history of this game and forum.
Does anyone in Cryptic even remember that SS became the damage monster after all of our encounter damage was nerfed to complete trash?
SS also only became 100% crit when its proc chance was nerfed and it only proced from crits.
Many powers got a damage reduction.
However, steal time cooldown was reduced.
Icy terrain damage was increased a little and icy terrain was changed to be not broken by damage.
Tried to solo one of the Dread Ring minidungeons, which after all have been designed to be completed solo.
It felt like I was still in Mod5 gear.
Tried PvE build with COI and AOEs. Tried PvP build with cc everywhere. Died and died and died. When you don't damage anything any more, your squishiness becomes blatant.
Once again the devs failed to grasp the issue. 30% damage less is much more then a 30% nerf of overall performance. The absurd damage of Storm Spell (but hey devs, you created it, not us) had to be allocated otherwise, not removed.
I don't think I ever recall anyone saying you shouldn't ever nerf stormspell ever. I do recall people saying we don't like it very much but what else are we going to do they took the damage off encounters and now the game is proc this as much as possible. But now we have a gimp version of it to go with our gimp encounters. And prior to the nerf we had fallen a good bit behind in dps. And on top of that you have the irritating task of changing all the gear around. Maybe that's less of an irritation for some. So maybe you should lay off the how dare you feel put out schtick. I and other like to vent a bit.
My DC or my HR will gladly take your "gimpy" disintegrate to add to my encounter bar any day, with that 5 sec cooldown... thanks.
Tried to solo one of the Dread Ring minidungeons, which after all have been designed to be completed solo.
It felt like I was still in Mod5 gear. Tried PvE build with COI and AOEs. Tried PvP build with cc everywhere. Died and died and died. When you don't damage anything any more, your squishiness becomes blatant.
This morning, I solo'd phantasmal fortress on my righteous DC, trapper HR, and MoF CW. All have at least 90k HP.
On my CW, it was fast. Destroyed the phylactery in one round. DC and HR needed two rounds.
never died once.
Something is seriously wrong with your CW, and it's not storm spell.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
This morning, I solo'd phantasmal fortress on my righteous DC, trapper HR, and MoF CW. All have at least 90k HP.
On my CW, it was fast. Destroyed the phylactery in one round. DC and HR needed two rounds.
never died once.
Something is seriously wrong with your CW, and it's not storm spell.
Besides, run shield if you're squishy, still more than enough control left to pin down the bosses.
My DC or my HR will gladly take your "gimpy" disintegrate to add to my encounter bar any day, with that 5 sec cooldown... thanks.
Are your life really that sad, that you have to troll threads in another class forum?? Anyway doubt any1 is complaining much about our single damage, it is our Aoe damage that have taken a huuuge hit in this nerf, and CW's were already far behind 2-3 other dps classes in game..
Now the problem is of course, what excactly does cw's bring to the table in Pve?? And no controll is not a thing when every mob is either immune to controll, or have enough cc resist to make all of our controll powers suck.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
No it is a class feat that like Spell Storm was broken and critted 100% of the time. The fix was 0% crit for a class that lives and dies on crits. What people do not realize is GWF non-crit (yellow numbers) are so low we (GWFs) refuse to talk about them kind of like fight club!
No. It was a FEAT, not a feature. Any GWF in any build could get Deep Gash. The reason it was "fixed" was because it was INCREDIBLY powerful for a T1 FEAT, far more powerful than anything else in the game. For 5 feat points, you give a class a 20-30% DPS increase? That's crazy.
Storm Spell was a CLASS FEATURE. You had to pick the Spellstorm Paragon, and then give up one of your two class feature slots for it.
Comparing Storm Spell to Deep Gash is a false equivalent. They're not even close.
Thats true. But did GWF cry so much like all CWs do now about SS nerf? I dont think so.
You're right, they didn't. It was magnitudes higher than what we see now. Probably an uproar that will never be matched again.
As for the Spellstorm nerf, who cares? It's not really that big of a deal. It'll be old news by next week, unlike the Deep Gash thing, which is a horse that's been beaten dead for what, over a year now? Yet GWF's like to trot it out any time there's a change to another class they don't like :rolleyes:
You're right, they didn't. It was magnitudes higher than what we see now. Probably an uproar that will never be matched again.
As for the Spellstorm nerf, who cares? It's not really that big of a deal. It'll be old news by next week, unlike the Deep Gash thing, which is a horse that's been beaten dead for what, over a year now? Yet GWF's like to trot it out any time there's a change to another class they don't like :rolleyes:
One of the best answers i ever had. I like the way how you see this SS nerf. Really i do.
The ICD is on you, so you can only trigger Storm Spell (i.e. shoot lightning automatically) at a maximum of every .5s, however, it can strike as many targets as your spell hits (and indeed will) so as long as you are activating powers more slowly than twice a second, you will never actually *see* the ICD. When this becomes obvious is when you are stacking several effects that count as striking quickly (such as Icy Terrain + Conduit of Ice + Steal Time), and in cases like that it will be throttled back. This is primarily an AoE nerf in practice, but in some rare cases could affect single target rotations as well depending on your attack frequency.
As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table.
That's a well thought explaination and I feel it's more than appropriate. I'd love to see more MoF cw's now, and am hoping to see a buff to the paragon also. All you need to do is fix the Lostmauth set and Shadowy Opportunity working the same, and you're golden
That's a well thought explaination and I feel it's more than appropriate. I'd love to see more MoF cw's now, and am hoping to see a buff to the paragon also.
Agreed. Am I happy see my damage nerfed? Not really.
But as a player who can appreciate a better balance between aspects of the class I love, I understand the change.
Before the patch, Storm Spell was just TOO good. I'd rather see a class that has more competitive options available, than pigeon-holing people into something they didn't really want to play.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
edited June 2015
Did some ATC yesterday and storm spell did take quite a hit. Prior to the change, my dps was +50k, now average around 43k. Although it was a big hit, the overall influence on my dps was not so bad 14%(maybe 20% at most) damage reduced. Will be switching back to MoF and see if there is a difference in dps. I think it will probably be the same or higher since MoF gains an extra dot, crit, and crit severity. Smolder also almost did the same amount of damage as SS in longer fights.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I think it will probably be the same or higher since MoF gains an extra dot, crit, and crit severity. Smolder also almost did the same amount of damage as SS in longer fights.
Why would smolder do more damage over longer fights? There's nothing about Smolder that increases the damage it does the longer the fight goes on.
EDIT: And what I mean by that is Storm Spell and Smolder can each be broken down into a consistent damage/second number, which should normalize over a long enough time line.
In any given build, over a long enough timeline, your proc chance for Storm Spell will be fairly consistent. It's streaky over short times, but consistent over longer times. So it's essentially the same as a DoT, it just ticks on a variable timeline, instead of Smolder, which is guaranteed to tick each second.
Why would smolder do more damage over longer fights? There's nothing about Smolder that increases the damage it does the longer the fight goes on.
EDIT: And what I mean by that is Storm Spell and Smolder can each be broken down into a consistent damage/second number, which should normalize over a long enough time line.
In any given build, over a long enough timeline, your proc chance for Storm Spell will be fairly consistent. It's streaky over short times, but consistent over longer times. So it's essentially the same as a DoT, it just ticks on a variable timeline, instead of Smolder, which is guaranteed to tick each second.
So would you say that most SpellStorm Wizards might go back to Tharuma? I've been between that and Oppressor for a while and I have to say I do give up a bit of damage for some CC. At the same time I do like the constant damage Tharuma has.
Everyone is going to pigeonhole again. You find the most efficient build possible and run it or you're moaning about t2s being too hard.
Thaum is still unimpressive because there's nothing up the end of the tree but procs related to weapon damage. I'd take the chilling cloud feat feat if I could in fairness
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2015
Nightmare Wizardry is just too important (in my opinion). Maximizing the up-time on Combat Advantage is critical, and while it's very likely to happen in dungeons, Nightmare Wizardry guarantees it.
That's what would stop be from even considering Thaumaturge (let alone dropping the other buffs in Renegade).
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
Why would smolder do more damage over longer fights? There's nothing about Smolder that increases the damage it does the longer the fight goes on.
EDIT: And what I mean by that is Storm Spell and Smolder can each be broken down into a consistent damage/second number, which should normalize over a long enough time line.
In any given build, over a long enough timeline, your proc chance for Storm Spell will be fairly consistent. It's streaky over short times, but consistent over longer times. So it's essentially the same as a DoT, it just ticks on a variable timeline, instead of Smolder, which is guaranteed to tick each second.
Smolder does more damage over longer fights because the full damage of the dot is actually applied compared to shorter fights. Storm spell damage is applied directly which is why on short fights Storm spell dps is very high compared to small sample pools.
Smoulder is a paragon attribute rather than a class feature so it is always on regardless of which class feature or feat path you choose. By slotting critical conflagration, it becomes more efficient and buffs your over all dps. Especially with the off-hand class feature buff.
Nightmare Wizardry is just too important (in my opinion). Maximizing the up-time on Combat Advantage is critical, and while it's very likely to happen in dungeons, Nightmare Wizardry guarantees it.
That's what would stop be from even considering Thaumaturge (let alone dropping the other buffs in Renegade).
Hmm maybe it's just me then. I tried running Rene the other day just to see what it felt like. I either was waiting on cool down time (spoiled by spell twisting) or I'd give up a bit more potential to freeze anything. So I that's why I went back to Thauma/Oppress. Felt like it gave me the best of both worlds. I could have a constant Encounter almost all the time and keep things frozen more or less as needed. Yeah I'd get a bit up close and personal but for me I can pull being the escape artist.
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
Everyone is going to pigeonhole again. You find the most efficient build possible and run it or you're moaning about t2s being too hard.
Thaum is still unimpressive because there's nothing up the end of the tree but procs related to weapon damage. I'd take the chilling cloud feat feat if I could in fairness
If you want to go pure dps, Thaum is the best tree. Assailant force does a lot of damage. Should account to close to 20% of your damage.
However, it is hard to give up Chaos magic as it boosts overall dps and survivability for the group.
If you consistently play with other CW(s) that is rene, then you being Thaum will be better spec.
Half the time I run in groups where I'm the only cw so its not worth it to me. I don't remember it being 20% when I was a thaum, more lik 10 alongside the other weapon proc.
I have taken about an 18% DPS loss with this change. Before I was doing about 60k EncDPS, now about 49k. It really is disheartening to see a change like this. Dungeons are slower, I'm bit more sluggish in clearing mobs.
My feedback to the devs is this: You have taken this away, what, if anything is there as recompense? I'm not expecting anything, just merely asking. And don't do a double nerf. That would be mean.
Comments
While your at it can you please allow Deep Gash to crit again!
Is Deep Gash a class feature?
CWs have never felt the pain of a real nerf yet, when you are doing less damage than the GF tank (See GWF and TR) then we will feel for you. In time CWs will be top dogs again, it is the way of the mmo.
No it is a class feat that like Spell Storm was broken and critted 100% of the time. The fix was 0% crit for a class that lives and dies on crits. What people do not realize is GWF non-crit (yellow numbers) are so low we (GWFs) refuse to talk about them kind of like fight club!
Yeah i mean if you are a really terrible terrible GWF then sure a GF will out damage you.
In MOD 1 & 2 the GWF class was just a mess and was nearly extinct. We did absolutely terrible dps and could not stay alive. The TRs in the beginning could out dps anyone and everyone regardless of gear and spec then got nerfed into the ground. CWs have had some changes but nothing drastic as these.
Well yeah thats true, but TR **** on everyone back then.
Never. Believe me.
We dont have to. GWFs dont cry. Only CWs cry over OP TRs, OP Palas, OP DCs, "gettin one shotted from Mobs", "not tanky enough"..etc...etc...etc....check the history of this game and forum.
Many powers got a damage reduction.
However, steal time cooldown was reduced.
Icy terrain damage was increased a little and icy terrain was changed to be not broken by damage.
It felt like I was still in Mod5 gear.
Tried PvE build with COI and AOEs. Tried PvP build with cc everywhere. Died and died and died. When you don't damage anything any more, your squishiness becomes blatant.
Once again the devs failed to grasp the issue. 30% damage less is much more then a 30% nerf of overall performance. The absurd damage of Storm Spell (but hey devs, you created it, not us) had to be allocated otherwise, not removed.
My DC or my HR will gladly take your "gimpy" disintegrate to add to my encounter bar any day, with that 5 sec cooldown... thanks.
This morning, I solo'd phantasmal fortress on my righteous DC, trapper HR, and MoF CW. All have at least 90k HP.
On my CW, it was fast. Destroyed the phylactery in one round. DC and HR needed two rounds.
never died once.
Something is seriously wrong with your CW, and it's not storm spell.
Besides, run shield if you're squishy, still more than enough control left to pin down the bosses.
Are your life really that sad, that you have to troll threads in another class forum?? Anyway doubt any1 is complaining much about our single damage, it is our Aoe damage that have taken a huuuge hit in this nerf, and CW's were already far behind 2-3 other dps classes in game..
Now the problem is of course, what excactly does cw's bring to the table in Pve?? And no controll is not a thing when every mob is either immune to controll, or have enough cc resist to make all of our controll powers suck.
No. It was a FEAT, not a feature. Any GWF in any build could get Deep Gash. The reason it was "fixed" was because it was INCREDIBLY powerful for a T1 FEAT, far more powerful than anything else in the game. For 5 feat points, you give a class a 20-30% DPS increase? That's crazy.
Storm Spell was a CLASS FEATURE. You had to pick the Spellstorm Paragon, and then give up one of your two class feature slots for it.
Comparing Storm Spell to Deep Gash is a false equivalent. They're not even close.
Thats true. But did GWF cry so much like all CWs do now about SS nerf? I dont think so.
You're right, they didn't. It was magnitudes higher than what we see now. Probably an uproar that will never be matched again.
As for the Spellstorm nerf, who cares? It's not really that big of a deal. It'll be old news by next week, unlike the Deep Gash thing, which is a horse that's been beaten dead for what, over a year now? Yet GWF's like to trot it out any time there's a change to another class they don't like :rolleyes:
One of the best answers i ever had. I like the way how you see this SS nerf. Really i do.
That's a well thought explaination and I feel it's more than appropriate. I'd love to see more MoF cw's now, and am hoping to see a buff to the paragon also. All you need to do is fix the Lostmauth set and Shadowy Opportunity working the same, and you're golden
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
Agreed. Am I happy see my damage nerfed? Not really.
But as a player who can appreciate a better balance between aspects of the class I love, I understand the change.
Before the patch, Storm Spell was just TOO good. I'd rather see a class that has more competitive options available, than pigeon-holing people into something they didn't really want to play.
Why would smolder do more damage over longer fights? There's nothing about Smolder that increases the damage it does the longer the fight goes on.
EDIT: And what I mean by that is Storm Spell and Smolder can each be broken down into a consistent damage/second number, which should normalize over a long enough time line.
In any given build, over a long enough timeline, your proc chance for Storm Spell will be fairly consistent. It's streaky over short times, but consistent over longer times. So it's essentially the same as a DoT, it just ticks on a variable timeline, instead of Smolder, which is guaranteed to tick each second.
So would you say that most SpellStorm Wizards might go back to Tharuma? I've been between that and Oppressor for a while and I have to say I do give up a bit of damage for some CC. At the same time I do like the constant damage Tharuma has.
Thaum is still unimpressive because there's nothing up the end of the tree but procs related to weapon damage. I'd take the chilling cloud feat feat if I could in fairness
That's what would stop be from even considering Thaumaturge (let alone dropping the other buffs in Renegade).
Smolder does more damage over longer fights because the full damage of the dot is actually applied compared to shorter fights. Storm spell damage is applied directly which is why on short fights Storm spell dps is very high compared to small sample pools.
Smoulder is a paragon attribute rather than a class feature so it is always on regardless of which class feature or feat path you choose. By slotting critical conflagration, it becomes more efficient and buffs your over all dps. Especially with the off-hand class feature buff.
Hmm maybe it's just me then. I tried running Rene the other day just to see what it felt like. I either was waiting on cool down time (spoiled by spell twisting) or I'd give up a bit more potential to freeze anything. So I that's why I went back to Thauma/Oppress. Felt like it gave me the best of both worlds. I could have a constant Encounter almost all the time and keep things frozen more or less as needed. Yeah I'd get a bit up close and personal but for me I can pull being the escape artist.
If you want to go pure dps, Thaum is the best tree. Assailant force does a lot of damage. Should account to close to 20% of your damage.
However, it is hard to give up Chaos magic as it boosts overall dps and survivability for the group.
If you consistently play with other CW(s) that is rene, then you being Thaum will be better spec.
My feedback to the devs is this: You have taken this away, what, if anything is there as recompense? I'm not expecting anything, just merely asking. And don't do a double nerf. That would be mean.