stormspell should at least be able to crit based on our innate cc%
He just stated that it can't, because of the whole thing where it triggers from a crit. It's all or nothing.
The interesting flip to that is that the extra strike from the off-hand feature actually does have native crit behavior, which is why it's always been possible to see that damage as a non-crit.
GC - Can you please explain more why you would not then go back and re-evaluate the encounter powers that you nerfed back before mod 3 that required this compensatory buff to storm spell? Most of us would have preferred not having to rely on this crutch to make up lost damage. This is too large of a nerf, and stormspell should at least be able to crit based on our innate cc%
I agree. Remove Storm Spell altogether. Give us our encounter damage back that you took when you gave us Storm Spell.
We were already at least 3rd on the DPS tree for AOE, now we should be getting left pretty well in the dust.
Massive nerf to top end AOE damage.
If we aren't supposed to be decent AOE DPS, then maybe remove the ridiculous control resist on top end mobs?
Pull LM out of the equation, and our DPS is more of a joke.
DV Skirmish before:
DV Skirmish after:
Also, both of these are from skirmishes with 4 other players that couldn't dps their way out of a wet paper bag, and the results seem to be pretty consistent.
The ICD is on you, so you can only trigger Storm Spell (i.e. shoot lightning automatically) at a maximum of every .5s, however, it can strike as many targets as your spell hits (and indeed will) so as long as you are activating powers more slowly than twice a second, you will never actually *see* the ICD. When this becomes obvious is when you are stacking several effects that count as striking quickly (such as Icy Terrain + Conduit of Ice + Steal Time), and in cases like that it will be throttled back. This is primarily an AoE nerf in practice, but in some rare cases could affect single target rotations as well depending on your attack frequency.
As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table.
Can we have our encounter damage back then please. We're miles behind the other damage classes and I took like I thought a 20% haircut with no obvious way to close the gap. I'm not asking to be out in front of everyone but we were already a ways back.
You want to say to us sorry guys you are control now, well then please give us control back. It would be an odd statement to make though considering we've been dps for an open beta a launch and 5 and a half mods now.
Can we have our encounter damage back then please. We're miles behind the other damage classes and I took like I thought a 20% haircut with no obvious way to close the gap. I'm not asking to be out in front of everyone but we were already a ways back.
Does anyone in Cryptic even remember that SS became the damage monster after all of our encounter damage was nerfed to complete trash?
SS also only became 100% crit when its proc chance was nerfed and it only proced from crits.
It's just more of the same. A few lines of basic code?
10 CLS
20 print "Sorry about this but I have to hit you with this nerfing bat"
30 input "Would you like to recover now? (Y/N)", A$
40 if a$=y then goto 60
50 goto 10
60 print "here is some medicine in the form of power, items or abilities to increase your damage"
70 goto 10
As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table.
Thanks for the explanation. Might I offer a quick suggestion?
Can you return it to the form where it proc'd 20% of the time on ALL damage, and keep the ITC? Because the unfortunate side effect now is that abilities that increase critical strike and crit severity are substantially less valuable to SS CWs since that expected 18% of our damage comes from a source that can't crit. What this is unfortunately going to do is reduce how well Storm Spell scales as gear (and power) levels increase, since apart from getting a buff from power, there's no other stat that's going to help inherently scale the power of Storm Spell, so as characters get more powerful (especially by adding critical strike and crit severity), Storm Spell will become inherently less powerful.
If you remember way, way, way back when you guys were testing the Master of Flame paragon path, Smolder couldn't crit. And I pointed out how this effect throttles the ability to grow in power, given that it's a key feature of the paragon path. I think you probably have the same issue with Storm Spell now.
I agree, at 30-40% of a person's damage, it was way too powerful, but I think there's a more elegant way to cut back on that damage, while still making sure Storm Spell remains a viable choice as a passive as gear and power levels escalate.
In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table.
With MOF. Apparently. a MOF CW is the stick by which all CWs are measured.
They could have just buffed MOF to bring it in line with SS.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
With MOF. Apparently. a MOF CW is the stick by which all CWs are measured.
Well, if they're looking at making changes, one change that I personally think would bring parity between the two paths?
Make MoF's apply smolder on critical strikes an inherent ability. Update Critical Conflagration class feature to increase critical severity by 10/20/30/40%.
Right now one of the inherent disadvantages to MoF's is having to juggle applying smolder, chill stacks AND arcane stacks to be most effective, which is extremely hard to do with the tools provided. And since smolder is such a key component of MoF builds, you're basically locked into CC as class feature to ensure consistent application of smolder. And with that, you'd be crazy not to take Swath of Destruction. If you take that burden off the MoF, then it opens up more doors for creative (and powerful) builds. Otherwise, MoF's are a bit crippled because they are basically forced to take the same two passives to be effective, and they miss the opportunity to mix other passives into the build, which limits them significantly.
Well like we've all noticed MoF does or did significantly worse damage with upsides that were not always tangible for reasons we all know. That there isn't much to recommend a choice between the two isn't a victory to me. Now its just the class as a whole that's fallen behind. And if the kindly developer could tell us anything about where cws are supposed to be going that would be interesting to me because then I could make plans and build. There decisions arriving out of the blue skys are very challenging to deal with.
Offhand if the average player is supposed to get 18% of damage from stormspell. They would be better advised to take evocation perhaps, assuming that it is in fact working as described which was an issue in the past.
Well like we've all noticed MoF does or did significantly worse damage with upsides that were not always tangible for reasons we all know. That there isn't much to recommend a choice between the two isn't a victory to me. Now its just the class as a whole that's fallen behind. And if the kindly developer could tell us anything about where cws are supposed to be going that would be interesting to me because then I could make plans and build. There decisions arriving out of the blue skys are very challenging to deal with.
I gave up complaining. After literally 100s of my posts were either deleted or sent to the lower depths, I have learned something.
SPEAK with your $ not with your words. Dollar signs are all they hear. Don't stop playing. Just stop paying.
He's not being utterly unreasonable unlike other people one could mention. Odd belief in a right to higher damage but its what happens when people lock onto phrases like striker. Maybe its mmo players and people who lock on to way things should be. Head cannon.
Maybe I said was exaggerated but not a whole lot. Mediocre but with the sense of being lower. I think that's where we will end up but if you try for more its going to be very ugly. I guess some people mean press v on mythic dc artifact and burst out oppressive every 30-40 seconds when they saw control. I can do that but its not a good answer to what control should look like for the low geared.
I'll presume you agree with the rest then since you just nitpicked the one thing.
Oh and for what its worth the sw used to have the potential for very usefull off healing. It wasn't necessarily just a pure nuke but generally speaking all of the classes have had alternative functions. GWF was once a credible tank even. This is the first time cw is off damage. No surprise many cws don't like it at all.
It's 20% lower than what it was.
As was mentioned Stormspell was the compensation for the extreme nerfs that were done to shard among other things. This is just a bug bend over nerf. But clearly the new dev team doesn't care about what was discussed in the past
It's one thing if they want to "tweak" things a bit, but this is more like wholesale slaughter.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Well, if they're looking at making changes, one change that I personally think would bring parity between the two paths?
Make MoF's apply smolder on critical strikes an inherent ability. Update Critical Conflagration class feature to increase critical severity by 10/20/30/40%.
Right now one of the inherent disadvantages to MoF's is having to juggle applying smolder, chill stacks AND arcane stacks to be most effective, which is extremely hard to do with the tools provided. And since smolder is such a key component of MoF builds, you're basically locked into CC as class feature to ensure consistent application of smolder. And with that, you'd be crazy not to take Swath of Destruction. If you take that burden off the MoF, then it opens up more doors for creative (and powerful) builds. Otherwise, MoF's are a bit crippled because they are basically forced to take the same two passives to be effective, and they miss the opportunity to mix other passives into the build, which limits them significantly.
Divorcing the ability to place smolder from the paragon powers would be a game-changer. I was twiddling NWCalc because I've never played a MoF and wanted to see how it would roll, and you have to give up a ton of the universal CW utility to be able to use the added paragon mechanic (bit like a Soulbinder SW does, but with less apparent return on the investment).
The ICD is on you, so you can only trigger Storm Spell (i.e. shoot lightning automatically) at a maximum of every .5s, however, it can strike as many targets as your spell hits (and indeed will) so as long as you are activating powers more slowly than twice a second, you will never actually *see* the ICD. When this becomes obvious is when you are stacking several effects that count as striking quickly (such as Icy Terrain + Conduit of Ice + Steal Time), and in cases like that it will be throttled back. This is primarily an AoE nerf in practice, but in some rare cases could affect single target rotations as well depending on your attack frequency.
As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table.
Thanks Crush!
This EXACT same thing needs to be applied to eLOL set bonus.
It currently can proc more than once per second AND also is 100% of the time a crit. Seems like it would be PERFECT to apply the exact same change you did here to eLOL set bonus.
Also, Now that tenacity is fixed it would the IDEAL time to change the Fire Wheel Buff to NOT deal piercing damage - its REALLY REALLY overpowered in PVP. Please look into that!
This EXACT same thing needs to be applied to eLOL set bonus.
It currently can proc more than once per second AND also is 100% of the time a crit. Seems like it would be PERFECT to apply the exact same change you did here to eLOL set bonus.
Also, Now that tenacity is fixed it would the IDEAL time to change the Fire Wheel Buff to NOT deal piercing damage - its REALLY REALLY overpowered in PVP. Please look into that!
It would be very funny if it wasn't applied to the lol set, really let us know where we stand.
It currently isnt applied to the LOL set. But that would literally be the perfect fix for the **** set (which I own BTW). That would nerf its #s down to a much much more reasonable figure and probably the only change that was actually needed.
Then nerfing Fire Wheel as well so it deals REGULAR damage rather than piercing damage would be ideal. Either that or the figure its "based on" needs to be the POST DR # rather than the PRE DR #. Which in effect is the same thing.
I got my SS/rene CW up to 5k, stubbornly refusing to use the eLOL set, as I keep hoping it will be fixed. For the life of me, I can't think of why anyone would want my character in a T2 dungeon party now (other than to help with the cheat everyone uses to beat eCC). Is this really how the game is supposed to be?
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited June 2015
Jeebus crisco guys....even if it's a straight up 20-30% damage nerf, it should still keep you competitive with other classes...
If one change is making you doubt your entire existence, then turn in your wizard's hat and cloak, please.
This class has dealt with far, far worse nerfs and adversity than this change to ONE class feature.
Jeebus crisco guys....even if it's a straight up 20-30% damage nerf, it should still keep you competitive with other classes...
If one change is making you doubt your entire existence, then turn in your wizard's hat and cloak, please.
This class has dealt with far, far worse nerfs and adversity than this change to ONE class feature.
Yup. This. Classes get nerfed, then buffed, then nerfed. I could literally write a book about ALLL the nerfs then buffs but its pointless.
If CWs start under-performing itll be very clear very quickly and they will address it in the next few modules/months.
Itll be very funny now because this will really separate the good from the bad CWs out there. While I do feel for my CW brothers and sisters out there, this was a MUCH needed change.
Think of it this way, SS HAD to be nerfed for them to look at other areas of the class to be buffed. SS was honestly a crutch for many other areas that could be addressed and brought up but with CWs ALL using SS and ALL relying on it, you cant really buff anything if the class is performing THAT well because of ONE feat....
I don't think I ever recall anyone saying you shouldn't ever nerf stormspell ever. I do recall people saying we don't like it very much but what else are we going to do they took the damage off encounters and now the game is proc this as much as possible. But now we have a gimp version of it to go with our gimp encounters. And prior to the nerf we had fallen a good bit behind in dps. And on top of that you have the irritating task of changing all the gear around. Maybe that's less of an irritation for some. So maybe you should lay off the how dare you feel put out schtick. I and other like to vent a bit.
Thrilling question: What about simultaneous procs...
...I guess we'll have to wait until the first ACT parses are there. If, e.g. an opening IT with EotS still triggers StSp on every affected mob, no big deal. If only one mob gets struck by lightning then - uh-oh.
There is no simultaneous. If multiple things are happening at once, "a coin is flipped" to make one thing first and the other following.
[...]
...so uh-oh.
Good thing my CW already is Opp built... ...might save me the respec.
The ICD is on you, so you can only trigger Storm Spell (i.e. shoot lightning automatically) at a maximum of every .5s, however, it can strike as many targets as your spell hits [...]
So, authoritatively, not uh-oh.
Less ZAPP!!! from vorpal etc., for sure, but else, for the non-vorps among us. a moderate less-than-50% damage reduction of the StormSpell damage. Also, the Crit builds will be slightly less effective.
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Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
That's unfair to say that. It's 100% crit but only 30% of the time.
Hey. I'm feeling better. Thanks Becky
He just stated that it can't, because of the whole thing where it triggers from a crit. It's all or nothing.
The interesting flip to that is that the extra strike from the off-hand feature actually does have native crit behavior, which is why it's always been possible to see that damage as a non-crit.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I agree. Remove Storm Spell altogether. Give us our encounter damage back that you took when you gave us Storm Spell.
That's unfair to say that. It's 100% crit but only 30% of the time and ONLY following a critical hit.
So with a base sheet crit of 65% I have a 30% of my 65% chance. to get a critical hit from Storm Spell.
Base Crit(65%)x30%(Chance Storm Spell will even trigger)=19.5% chance for a critical hit from Storm Spell.
For arguments sake lets say I have 100% crit chance. Lets do the math:
100%x30%=30% chance for a critical hit from Storm Spell (With 100% crit). Seems totally resonable.
It was higher. But was reduced to 30% chance BECAUSE IT ONLY CRITS.
Massive nerf to top end AOE damage.
If we aren't supposed to be decent AOE DPS, then maybe remove the ridiculous control resist on top end mobs?
Pull LM out of the equation, and our DPS is more of a joke.
DV Skirmish before:
DV Skirmish after:
Also, both of these are from skirmishes with 4 other players that couldn't dps their way out of a wet paper bag, and the results seem to be pretty consistent.
Can we have our encounter damage back then please. We're miles behind the other damage classes and I took like I thought a 20% haircut with no obvious way to close the gap. I'm not asking to be out in front of everyone but we were already a ways back.
You want to say to us sorry guys you are control now, well then please give us control back. It would be an odd statement to make though considering we've been dps for an open beta a launch and 5 and a half mods now.
MOTH skirmish final boss before:
MOTH skirmish final boss after:
Does anyone in Cryptic even remember that SS became the damage monster after all of our encounter damage was nerfed to complete trash?
SS also only became 100% crit when its proc chance was nerfed and it only proced from crits.
10 CLS
20 print "Sorry about this but I have to hit you with this nerfing bat"
30 input "Would you like to recover now? (Y/N)", A$
40 if a$=y then goto 60
50 goto 10
60 print "here is some medicine in the form of power, items or abilities to increase your damage"
70 goto 10
Thanks for the explanation. Might I offer a quick suggestion?
Can you return it to the form where it proc'd 20% of the time on ALL damage, and keep the ITC? Because the unfortunate side effect now is that abilities that increase critical strike and crit severity are substantially less valuable to SS CWs since that expected 18% of our damage comes from a source that can't crit. What this is unfortunately going to do is reduce how well Storm Spell scales as gear (and power) levels increase, since apart from getting a buff from power, there's no other stat that's going to help inherently scale the power of Storm Spell, so as characters get more powerful (especially by adding critical strike and crit severity), Storm Spell will become inherently less powerful.
If you remember way, way, way back when you guys were testing the Master of Flame paragon path, Smolder couldn't crit. And I pointed out how this effect throttles the ability to grow in power, given that it's a key feature of the paragon path. I think you probably have the same issue with Storm Spell now.
I agree, at 30-40% of a person's damage, it was way too powerful, but I think there's a more elegant way to cut back on that damage, while still making sure Storm Spell remains a viable choice as a passive as gear and power levels escalate.
With MOF. Apparently. a MOF CW is the stick by which all CWs are measured.
They could have just buffed MOF to bring it in line with SS.
Well, if they're looking at making changes, one change that I personally think would bring parity between the two paths?
Make MoF's apply smolder on critical strikes an inherent ability. Update Critical Conflagration class feature to increase critical severity by 10/20/30/40%.
Right now one of the inherent disadvantages to MoF's is having to juggle applying smolder, chill stacks AND arcane stacks to be most effective, which is extremely hard to do with the tools provided. And since smolder is such a key component of MoF builds, you're basically locked into CC as class feature to ensure consistent application of smolder. And with that, you'd be crazy not to take Swath of Destruction. If you take that burden off the MoF, then it opens up more doors for creative (and powerful) builds. Otherwise, MoF's are a bit crippled because they are basically forced to take the same two passives to be effective, and they miss the opportunity to mix other passives into the build, which limits them significantly.
Offhand if the average player is supposed to get 18% of damage from stormspell. They would be better advised to take evocation perhaps, assuming that it is in fact working as described which was an issue in the past.
I gave up complaining. After literally 100s of my posts were either deleted or sent to the lower depths, I have learned something.
SPEAK with your $ not with your words. Dollar signs are all they hear. Don't stop playing. Just stop paying.
It's 20% lower than what it was.
As was mentioned Stormspell was the compensation for the extreme nerfs that were done to shard among other things. This is just a bug bend over nerf. But clearly the new dev team doesn't care about what was discussed in the past
It's one thing if they want to "tweak" things a bit, but this is more like wholesale slaughter.
Divorcing the ability to place smolder from the paragon powers would be a game-changer. I was twiddling NWCalc because I've never played a MoF and wanted to see how it would roll, and you have to give up a ton of the universal CW utility to be able to use the added paragon mechanic (bit like a Soulbinder SW does, but with less apparent return on the investment).
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Thanks Crush!
This EXACT same thing needs to be applied to eLOL set bonus.
It currently can proc more than once per second AND also is 100% of the time a crit. Seems like it would be PERFECT to apply the exact same change you did here to eLOL set bonus.
Also, Now that tenacity is fixed it would the IDEAL time to change the Fire Wheel Buff to NOT deal piercing damage - its REALLY REALLY overpowered in PVP. Please look into that!
AMEN....Right On....Hell yeah....**** Straight!
It currently isnt applied to the LOL set. But that would literally be the perfect fix for the **** set (which I own BTW). That would nerf its #s down to a much much more reasonable figure and probably the only change that was actually needed.
Then nerfing Fire Wheel as well so it deals REGULAR damage rather than piercing damage would be ideal. Either that or the figure its "based on" needs to be the POST DR # rather than the PRE DR #. Which in effect is the same thing.
If one change is making you doubt your entire existence, then turn in your wizard's hat and cloak, please.
This class has dealt with far, far worse nerfs and adversity than this change to ONE class feature.
Yup. This. Classes get nerfed, then buffed, then nerfed. I could literally write a book about ALLL the nerfs then buffs but its pointless.
If CWs start under-performing itll be very clear very quickly and they will address it in the next few modules/months.
Itll be very funny now because this will really separate the good from the bad CWs out there. While I do feel for my CW brothers and sisters out there, this was a MUCH needed change.
Think of it this way, SS HAD to be nerfed for them to look at other areas of the class to be buffed. SS was honestly a crutch for many other areas that could be addressed and brought up but with CWs ALL using SS and ALL relying on it, you cant really buff anything if the class is performing THAT well because of ONE feat....
So, authoritatively, not uh-oh.
Less ZAPP!!! from vorpal etc., for sure, but else, for the non-vorps among us. a moderate less-than-50% damage reduction of the StormSpell damage. Also, the Crit builds will be slightly less effective.