beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited June 2015
Most GWFs can't do what Lazalia can do either, just sayin'.
I mean, my SM Destroyer is without doubt my most durable and most damaging character right now, but it's never fair to hold up the capabilities of a BiS character as what everyone else should expect. Aspire to, maybe, but it's not really in reach for an average person.
Fair point! However, I dont think Lazalia needs to be BiS to do everything he does. A GWF in my guild with 2.6k gs did bone golems HE solo (I watched him do it from the sidelines) after he saw the vid of Lazalia doing it. My CW, as an example, couldn't DREAM of doing that HE in WoD solo and is substantially better geared than my GWF friend. And to be clear that specific point of my last post wasn't addressing the dps aspect of GWF, merely that GWF sturdiness when played well is substantially better than some people would make it out to be. Proper usage and timing of sprint + avalanche of steel + temp hp from unstoppable goes a long way. If playing a pally tank this mod has taught me anything, its that a reliable source of a large amount of temp hp on demand makes a HUGE difference in being able to stay alive while still being able to be aggressive.
GWF Destroyer is a bit too much of a standalone build. I have made this comment again and again but the Destroyer feat path is simply waaaaaaaay too pivotal compared to other feat paths which diverges the class feat trees dramatically. It should slightly augment the abilities of the character, not provide an unrepentant 150% DPS boost.
That and I am butthurt that destroyers got unfettered strikes instead of instigators.
imbalance pvp? ahn... exist pvp or some class have destroyed that?
so, the main point, the single main point is the sinergy between a burst striker+3 utilitary class and the pride of one guy that are overdpsed by some gwf and, your big argument about that be unfair is the great utility of fls? (everbody know that are sm the great strikers today)?
a idea, not a person. during m4 gc say "gwf will be strikers or defenders, but not both". then finally he made that (well, not the defender thing, but well...)
being "defender" a secundary function, gwf is the single class made to have, internally, a single function.
if is to have my damage down, i will wait a lot of buffs in other areas. if is to other strikers have the same damage, will be necessary made the same "sacrifices" (in solo is not a sacrifice, lets be honest).
.
what i can not accept, not because that is a objective discussion, but because dont make sense (and i have problems to that) is some peoples say "look, the plane flies... need a nerf or give wings to my iate"
I don't see why people compare BiS characters to non BiS.
GWF definitely does a lot of damage, they also are a "Purely" Meele Striker (hidden daggers cant really be called a ranged skill, its more of a meele cone aoe) with no immunity dodge frame or long CC, and for the optimal build shown here essentially have NO CC slotted (HD , DS , IBS) . Every class has a different playstyle, and excels / is good at different things
If anything needs toning down, its the Lostmauth set. It shouldnt crit. that instantly shaves at least 50-100%+ of its extra damage off (from crit severity)
Cant compare them to CW, CW (even dps build) is still only secondary striker, and also is ranged with LARGE amounts of CC.
Cant compare them to TR. TR is a primary striker, but also more about burst damage and Control with hit and run tactics (high burst, moderate sustain , good CC / daze) I've also seen BiS Tr's absolutely trump Paingiver in Valindra in a party of 3k ilvl + people by over 150 mil.
cant compare to HR, while Combat Hr is essentially a similar type of thing, it's focussed more on sustain and harrass rather than pure absolute burst. trapper is by far the most popular spec and from what a lot of people say, the only spec worth going, and its a hybrid short/long range fighter with moderate/strong CC and a spammy playstyle. (though still bugged with arpen etc. they can be looked at more once that is fixed)
SW is probably the closest you can say too them, but plays totally differently, SW has Extremely high Ranged sustained DPS, and the ability to absolutely dominate when in fury spec. moderate control, but most SW spec more for the Incredibly potent damage they can deal while safely at range. they also have some CC and buff potential. however being at range inherently they have a safer life, but less safe than other ranged classes)
So thats all the striker classes out of the way. they all play differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.
Does a HR/CW deal as much damage as a GWF? No. Can a GWF control as well as a HR/CW? no.
Can a TR deal more burst than a GWF , Yes. Can a GWF deal more Sustained DPS than a TR? yes. (I know people will argue this, but it cant be said that a TR does less damage in the initial start of a fight in PvP than a GWF does, and in PvE they usually do different things)
SW is probably the closest you can say too them, but plays totally differently, SW has Extremely high Ranged sustained DPS, and the ability to absolutely dominate when in fury spec. moderate control, but most SW spec more for the Incredibly potent damage they can deal while safely at range. they also have some CC and buff potential. however being at range inherently they have a safer life, but less safe than other ranged classes)
Yeah. I get they are not really like them at all outside of 1 : being a DPS class, and 2 : having a sprint mechanism. but just trying to make a point. and i knew if I tried to say SW was nothing like them people'd be Trolololol sprint
@rversant Who is comparing BiS to non-BiS? I mostly try to stress the build and skillful play. When I mention Lazalia, I am mainly referring to the build.
As to the main premise of your post, no class/spec can be perfectly compared to another, but while this is true the only word out of line that you imply but do come out and say yourself is "perfectly". Within reason, strikers should absolutely be compared to each other in their pve function - that is dps. Should they all deal precisely the same dps? Absolutely not. It would be an unreasonable expectation.
The question becomes this - What IS reasonable? 10%? 30%? 80% more? Its not for me to decide but my OPINION would be that at a similar level of gear any lead ranging in excess of 50% is unreasonable.
Lets pretend for a moment that the universe agrees with my opinion, what then? Nerf the one sticking out? Buff the rest? I think before you even consider that you should ask "does the one sticking out fit with the content?" If they are too strong for the content I think a nerf would be reasonable. If they fit the content, then it stands to reason that any pve dps being left too far behind has room to improve.
My next opinion is this, GWF pve dps is NOT too strong the content and the content by which I think this should be measured is t2 content.
My last statement would be this - at a similar level of gear a GWF destroyer does in fact exceed 50% more dps than other pve dps in general. The exact percentage ofcourse would vary by class and spec - some much less, some much much much more.
Therefore, I think there is room for the others to come up, some slightly some generously, without jumping straight to invalidation of a GWF in their role.
Now, to get to these conclusions you have to do an awful lot of pretending you agree with my opinions but I appreciate your indulgence. (Since you did mention pvp, naturally I understand this line of thinking can fall apart with pvp implications but I admit - I dont pvp)
Therefore, I think there is room for the others to come up, some slightly some generously, without jumping straight to invalidation of a GWF in their role.
Gimme Time steal and i will give you Avalanche. NP.
I don't see why people compare BiS characters to non BiS.
Exactly! Why you ppl quote names of the BIS players tt tests anything related to GWF and spend so much time to guide others, how to be more efficient?! Why ppl are surprised how, these players can maintain their characters in battle?! First think, before you say/write something! Consider following - some people are F1 pilots, some are ordinary car drivers.
@OP
Why don't you reveal your character class? It will be proper to be known. I suppose CW... as they were top of the paingiver chart last 2 mods.
I have a question for you: Is it fun to play with good dps GWF at T2 dungeons /considering tt other party members are good too/, or not?
Since Losthmauth set was found, there is whine to the skies. For what?! "Look mom, his toy car is faster than my bulldozer." That how all this whining sounds to me. I read and read similar posts and can not believe, how it's possible .. all these complains for something good. Did you ever see what CW is doing with this set or SW?!
Not to mention, that 90% of the ppl are obsessed again by iLevels ... What is item level = same dust in the eyes as gear score was. If iLvl is something, tell me how its possible to do twice more dmg with my GWF comparing to same ilvl GWF /both using lostmouth set/!? And I'm IV he is SM .... Considering that GWF HAVE to do dmg, as he is NOT controller, NOT a great party buffer, NOT a healer, NOT a protector, NOT a ranged and he have top base weapon dmg.
Do someone of the whiners, even thought tt lostmauth pin in the a.$ is not even a 30% of the right way to create a PvE, dps, destroyer GWF? At first place comes playstyle and build, not the gears! Second comes to distribute stat points to proper place/proper way to equip/ and after that comes gears and THE set. Without first two, you can have top iLvl/ assuming tt iLvl shows how much shiny stuff you put/, but to be totally useless in the party.
Note: I have almost BIS CW and more than an average TR. Also I don't forget in CW, what is "C" stand for and what TR means. Can say tt what I can do with my totally BIS GWF, I can do with both characters/ mean HE and other single player stuff/. Somethings I can do easy with GWF, somethings I can do easy with the others.
Yeah. I get they are not really like them at all outside of 1 : being a DPS class, and 2 : having a sprint mechanism. but just trying to make a point. and i knew if I tried to say SW was nothing like them people'd be Trolololol sprint
I mostly LOLed at the part where you called SW's crowd control "moderate" (they really only have two single-target control spells that see any use, and one of them is broken now), and the notion that a SW can do anything "safely".
@pando You are very strongly underestimating the sturdiness that temp hp, unstoppable, and the proper use of sprint and Avalanche of Steel provides a GWF. Lazalia has several videos demonstrating the insane stunts he is able to not only survive but dominate completely solo. I think you will find other classes for the most part are unable to duplicate most of them. Most GWFs I run with in t2s don't get one-shot unless they stand in an attack they shouldn't have and most of those types of attacks have a wind-up. (Think zombie hulk smash, or enforcer shield bash, or hexer aoe, etc) Getting hit by stray normal attacks does not one-shot most GWFs and often wont even penetrate their temporary hp. Most survivability for melee dps this mod comes from proper play/positioning (EXA: Dont stand in front of the enforcer while you dps and eat a shieldbash to the face, stand opposite the tank) and move out of long wind-ups. I dont want to rant about this for too long, its up for each person on their own to learn how to play well, regardless of your class/role.
Moving on!
On your other point, other strikers don't need to have the EXACT same dps as GWF, but it would be nice if the gap was not so overwhelmingly massive. I dont know what the dev's are considering about pve dps balance (if at all), but if the only choice is between a GWF nerf or leave it alone - my vote is leave it alone and just let GWF have their dps. If some pve changes/balancing is on the table however, other pve dps could use a little boost in damage.
Solo mobs hit less hard than eCC or eGWD or eToS mobs.
In fact, look at Lazalia videos in dungeons. In solo, he uses negation. In dungeons, soulforged. And he SF here and there even with good DCs/ OPs usually in his group.
Cutthroat in eCC oneshots me through my 95-100k HP, and almost kills me even with temp hp on.
You can dodge and avalanche and position but here's the point: you, as a GWF, in epic dungeons, fight with interruptions. Hit some, dodge some, plus avalanche is not optimal for DPS (focused destroyer buff lasting less than the daily windup time), so you're not always dealing damage. And you take more risks for obvious reasons cause you fight in melee range and most mobs and read area/ heavy attacks are melee range attacks.
A ranged DPS, say a SW, is safe in range behind his group, far from attacks, dealing damage non-stop. No dodge, no risk/ little risk if the tank is good and the DC/ OP is good too.
What devs said at the start of module 6 was that GWFs were dealing "enough damage FOR THE RISKS THEY TAKE".
And that's the point imho.
GWFs take more risks. Fighting in melee in current dungeons is more risky in current dungeons. So melee DPS deal more damage cause they take more risks except for few situations (for example spiderlings in eToS boss can target any member of the group and the melee ones are capable of oneshotting or almost oneshotting geared players).
This is how i see it.
The only class imho should come close to GWF DPS is the SW cause they are DPS-only classes, so they must be the ranged alternative to a GWF if you want some heavy DPS.
Other classes, no, cause they either bring more utility (CW/trapper CC, smoke bomb lasting more than FLS), or take less risks (being ranged or being immune/ invisible often).
I mostly LOLed at the part where you called SW's crowd control "moderate" (they really only have two single-target control spells that see any use, and one of them is broken now), and the notion that a SW can do anything "safely".
If tank is good at holding aggro, then what a SW does is non-stop DPS from a safe zone. For sure they are not fighting in melee range where you have to dodge a lot, am i right?
Also, fighting in melee range a little mistake means the enemy hits you 0.5s later.
Fighting from range means that, even if you grab aggro for a second, either:
- the tank manages to grab aggro back if he's good
- some CC class alts the mob while he's walking towards you
which is more likely to happen if you don't have to fight the mob in so close range that it could actually kiss you.
If tank is good at holding aggro, then what a SW does is non-stop DPS from a safe zone. For sure they are not fighting in melee range where you have to dodge a lot, am i right?
Also, fighting in melee range a little mistake means the enemy hits you 0.5s later.
Fighting from range means that, even if you grab aggro for a second, either:
- the tank manages to grab aggro back if he's good
- some CC class alts the mob while he's walking towards you
which is more likely to happen if you don't have to fight the mob in so close range that it could actually kiss you.
Sure, this is all true. The problem is the SW can pretty much die in a second, so I don't find the idea that they're safe just because they're not in melee range particularly appealing. SWs have no real HP pool, low DR, no means to break out of CC, and no reliable healing mechanism.
That's the reason why you see SWs go SB en masse right now -- folks just don't like dying in one glorious swipe.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited June 2015
While a SW is extremely vulnerable doing the solo daily thing (speaking from experience of getting horribly splatted), I suspect that in an epic dungeon situation, they actually do have the option to play at range and maintain a slight more semblance of safety, due to being able to rely on the synergies of their party.
@rversant Who is comparing BiS to non-BiS? I mostly try to stress the build and skillful play. When I mention Lazalia, I am mainly referring to the build.
As to the main premise of your post, no class/spec can be perfectly compared to another, but while this is true the only word out of line that you imply but do come out and say yourself is "perfectly". Within reason, strikers should absolutely be compared to each other in their pve function - that is dps.
that is the point: no. be striker is put a lot of damage as he can w/o retaliation. is the mix between mobility and damage.
rogue for example have a dodge. stealth (more emblematic, impossible) and a lot of sinergy to control. in that he is far, far superior than gwfs. and STILL do very well your secundary function, control.
if you take a solo gameplay, ok, i do far more damage so the fight will be more fast and the attacks s not strong enough to killme (unstoppable+sprint here makes a difference). when a enemie is able to oneshot, you see the big diference between both gameplays. sws and rangers seens a little messed for now, i can not say much about that (my theory is= this classes will be "purged" before to receiving some buff... rogues will need the same before to ask about some buff w/o create a nw armageon).
"The question becomes this - What IS reasonable? 10%? 30%? 80% more? Its not for me to decide but my OPINION would be that at a similar level of gear any lead ranging in excess of 50% is unreasonable."
here is the thing historically speaking: in my opinion the damage must be measured by the class that always had the supremacy. In this case, cws. I believe a primary striker should do x times more damage than a secondary striker in the same proportion that a secondary striker do "x" times more damage than a non striker. today that is +/- 8 times (bizarre)
then, if you ask me if the damage of hrs/rogues/sws and even gwf is ok or no, my answer is no: need some buff (or... you know. down the diference between the 3 levels is better in my opinion/ 2/3x times between strikers/secundary strikers/defenders). but should also be a hierarchy among the strikers. then the discussion is a little more complicated.
just to remember we are aspeak about a melee class w/o dodge in a tree 100% striker. you can not speak about down that damage or up other damages w/o think about compensations. and just to remember: that difference is just a pride problem. dont have a objective porpose. if you look for pvp, that is far more cleare.
I have always felt that pure offense build GWF's (destroyer) should have the best damage among the strikers -- but I never felt it should be anywhere near this much. Right now it is the king of burst, the king of sustained and at 50% premium (minimum) in total damage over any other striker. Since I still feel the game is WAY too easy to play, I am not in favor of other strikers being adjusted to compensate but instead that things need to be evaluated more closely from the most recent changes and adjusted where warranted.
Well, I think I have bombarded this thread enough regarding my opinions so I'll leave it there. I guess my stance at the present is simply don't nerf GWF pve dps.
thing is GWF is the class that takes the most risk in the game as primary striker, so ofc GWF should be always top dps and deal waaaaaaaaay more dmg than any other striker.
I don't see that it takes much risk at all -- where is there any risk in this game? The GWF has plenty of tools to mitigate any risk and everyone can qualify 'risk' as that which they have the least handle on adjusting to. If such is that they always deal waaaaaaaaay more dmg than any other striker then they become the ONLY striker.
I don't see that it takes much risk at all -- where is there any risk in this game? The GWF has plenty of tools to mitigate any risk and everyone can qualify 'risk' as that which they have the least handle on adjusting to. If such is that they always deal waaaaaaaaay more dmg than any other striker then they become the ONLY striker.
Of course it's the class that deals the most damage. We have a hugeass Greatsword with us.
And IT IS the highest risk. We run in front and engage the enemy like REAL MEN.
GWF is in a good spot at the moment. A TR with two toothpicks isn't supposed to outdamage a man of steel.
I don't see that it takes much risk at all -- where is there any risk in this game? The GWF has plenty of tools to mitigate any risk and everyone can qualify 'risk' as that which they have the least handle on adjusting to. If such is that they always deal waaaaaaaaay more dmg than any other striker then they become the ONLY striker.
1. Risk for GWF in dungeon = Got CWs in grp they still thinking they must make dps instead of CC? Huge risk
2. Risk for GWF in dungeon = Got TRs in grp they use smokebomb wrong or just to late/early? Huge risk
3. Risk for GWF in dungeon = Got a "Dps" Pala in grp with no ability to hold aggro from any kind of mob/boss? Huge risk
Just some points ^^.
And plz enlight me: Wot do you mean with "plenty" tools? We are talking about an DPS Destroyer SM GWF, i guess. Wot kinda tools do they have?
And plz enlight me: Wot do you mean with "plenty" tools? We are talking about an DPS Destroyer SM GWF, i guess. Wot kinda tools do they have?
^^ This ^^ Seems I miss something in GWF mechanics.
If GWF is DPS Destroyer IV like me, FLS gives you sooooo much control in the dungeons, with all the CC immunity of the mobs there, even the CONTROL wizards are petrified. Something like 0.8 sec of prone max, not to say tt high lvl mobs start to hit again even before they are knocked. Hmmm indeed it's a great tool. But not to forget my greatest tools - soulforged enchantment and scrolls of life/mass life.
Aaah and GWFs are not taking any risks, not at all. They are sitting far away from the battle, they never see red circles and eating peanuts all the time. If some mob surprisingly comes close to them, they can dodge, teleport, roll over, do a backflip, become invisible and avoid any attack.
they are sitting far away from the battle, they never see red circles and eating peanuts all the time. If some mob surprisingly comes close to them, they can dodge, teleport, roll over, do a backflip, become invisible and avoid any attack.
Of course it's the class that deals the most damage. We have a hugeass Greatsword with us.
And IT IS the highest risk. We run in front and engage the enemy like REAL MEN.
GWF is in a good spot at the moment. A TR with two toothpicks isn't supposed to outdamage a man of steel.
Haha okay I can play this game too.
Of cousre it's the class that deals the most damage as it is the class that deals the most damage -- duh. The size of your rear end has nothing to do with it.
Just because you are poorly skilled in playing this particularly easy game does not qualify the risk you place upon yourself from lack of any talent to have any bearing on an evaluation. This is a classical non sequitur. Any class can run straight into danger and expose themselves to the most perilous of risk possible and put themselves in far more danger than a GWF would be in. This does not make one a man. You are obviously not Caitlyn/Bruce so you must be going the other way, and I am not sure where you are in your operation but you are seriously confused about what makes a man (but of course your confusion is apparent by default and does not warrant further discussion).
Not sure what a TR has to do with this discussion but okay, and also if you want to play a super hero you do know that PWE has a game like that?
1. Risk for GWF in dungeon = Got CWs in grp they still thinking they must make dps instead of CC? Huge risk
2. Risk for GWF in dungeon = Got TRs in grp they use smokebomb wrong or just to late/early? Huge risk
3. Risk for GWF in dungeon = Got a "Dps" Pala in grp with no ability to hold aggro from any kind of mob/boss? Huge risk
Just some points ^^.
And plz enlight me: Wot do you mean with "plenty" tools? We are talking about an DPS Destroyer SM GWF, i guess. Wot kinda tools do they have?
This applies to everyone, though, and not just the GWF. The GWF exposes others to risk just as often by gaining aggro and then sprinting to the back where everyone is trying to position with some degree of safety and I have conditioned myself to always take an away side when I get aggro in this fashion. I am not going to tell you how to play a GWF, there are others on these forums with far more skill than me at it that can manage feats I am unable to as of yet, but it isn't complex and certainly not rocket science.
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I mean, my SM Destroyer is without doubt my most durable and most damaging character right now, but it's never fair to hold up the capabilities of a BiS character as what everyone else should expect. Aspire to, maybe, but it's not really in reach for an average person.
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That and I am butthurt that destroyers got unfettered strikes instead of instigators.
this gwf perfomance imbalance pve? no.
imbalance pvp? ahn... exist pvp or some class have destroyed that?
so, the main point, the single main point is the sinergy between a burst striker+3 utilitary class and the pride of one guy that are overdpsed by some gwf and, your big argument about that be unfair is the great utility of fls? (everbody know that are sm the great strikers today)?
really, what is the entire point?
being "defender" a secundary function, gwf is the single class made to have, internally, a single function.
if is to have my damage down, i will wait a lot of buffs in other areas. if is to other strikers have the same damage, will be necessary made the same "sacrifices" (in solo is not a sacrifice, lets be honest).
.
what i can not accept, not because that is a objective discussion, but because dont make sense (and i have problems to that) is some peoples say "look, the plane flies... need a nerf or give wings to my iate"
GWF definitely does a lot of damage, they also are a "Purely" Meele Striker (hidden daggers cant really be called a ranged skill, its more of a meele cone aoe) with no immunity dodge frame or long CC, and for the optimal build shown here essentially have NO CC slotted (HD , DS , IBS) . Every class has a different playstyle, and excels / is good at different things
If anything needs toning down, its the Lostmauth set. It shouldnt crit. that instantly shaves at least 50-100%+ of its extra damage off (from crit severity)
Cant compare them to CW, CW (even dps build) is still only secondary striker, and also is ranged with LARGE amounts of CC.
Cant compare them to TR. TR is a primary striker, but also more about burst damage and Control with hit and run tactics (high burst, moderate sustain , good CC / daze) I've also seen BiS Tr's absolutely trump Paingiver in Valindra in a party of 3k ilvl + people by over 150 mil.
cant compare to HR, while Combat Hr is essentially a similar type of thing, it's focussed more on sustain and harrass rather than pure absolute burst. trapper is by far the most popular spec and from what a lot of people say, the only spec worth going, and its a hybrid short/long range fighter with moderate/strong CC and a spammy playstyle. (though still bugged with arpen etc. they can be looked at more once that is fixed)
SW is probably the closest you can say too them, but plays totally differently, SW has Extremely high Ranged sustained DPS, and the ability to absolutely dominate when in fury spec. moderate control, but most SW spec more for the Incredibly potent damage they can deal while safely at range. they also have some CC and buff potential. however being at range inherently they have a safer life, but less safe than other ranged classes)
So thats all the striker classes out of the way. they all play differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.
Does a HR/CW deal as much damage as a GWF? No. Can a GWF control as well as a HR/CW? no.
Can a TR deal more burst than a GWF , Yes. Can a GWF deal more Sustained DPS than a TR? yes. (I know people will argue this, but it cant be said that a TR does less damage in the initial start of a fight in PvP than a GWF does, and in PvE they usually do different things)
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Yeah. I get they are not really like them at all outside of 1 : being a DPS class, and 2 : having a sprint mechanism. but just trying to make a point. and i knew if I tried to say SW was nothing like them people'd be Trolololol sprint
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
As to the main premise of your post, no class/spec can be perfectly compared to another, but while this is true the only word out of line that you imply but do come out and say yourself is "perfectly". Within reason, strikers should absolutely be compared to each other in their pve function - that is dps. Should they all deal precisely the same dps? Absolutely not. It would be an unreasonable expectation.
The question becomes this - What IS reasonable? 10%? 30%? 80% more? Its not for me to decide but my OPINION would be that at a similar level of gear any lead ranging in excess of 50% is unreasonable.
Lets pretend for a moment that the universe agrees with my opinion, what then? Nerf the one sticking out? Buff the rest? I think before you even consider that you should ask "does the one sticking out fit with the content?" If they are too strong for the content I think a nerf would be reasonable. If they fit the content, then it stands to reason that any pve dps being left too far behind has room to improve.
My next opinion is this, GWF pve dps is NOT too strong the content and the content by which I think this should be measured is t2 content.
My last statement would be this - at a similar level of gear a GWF destroyer does in fact exceed 50% more dps than other pve dps in general. The exact percentage ofcourse would vary by class and spec - some much less, some much much much more.
Therefore, I think there is room for the others to come up, some slightly some generously, without jumping straight to invalidation of a GWF in their role.
Now, to get to these conclusions you have to do an awful lot of pretending you agree with my opinions but I appreciate your indulgence. (Since you did mention pvp, naturally I understand this line of thinking can fall apart with pvp implications but I admit - I dont pvp)
Gimme Time steal and i will give you Avalanche. NP.
Exactly! Why you ppl quote names of the BIS players tt tests anything related to GWF and spend so much time to guide others, how to be more efficient?! Why ppl are surprised how, these players can maintain their characters in battle?! First think, before you say/write something! Consider following - some people are F1 pilots, some are ordinary car drivers.
@OP
Why don't you reveal your character class? It will be proper to be known. I suppose CW... as they were top of the paingiver chart last 2 mods.
I have a question for you: Is it fun to play with good dps GWF at T2 dungeons /considering tt other party members are good too/, or not?
Since Losthmauth set was found, there is whine to the skies. For what?! "Look mom, his toy car is faster than my bulldozer." That how all this whining sounds to me. I read and read similar posts and can not believe, how it's possible .. all these complains for something good. Did you ever see what CW is doing with this set or SW?!
Not to mention, that 90% of the ppl are obsessed again by iLevels ... What is item level = same dust in the eyes as gear score was. If iLvl is something, tell me how its possible to do twice more dmg with my GWF comparing to same ilvl GWF /both using lostmouth set/!? And I'm IV he is SM .... Considering that GWF HAVE to do dmg, as he is NOT controller, NOT a great party buffer, NOT a healer, NOT a protector, NOT a ranged and he have top base weapon dmg.
Do someone of the whiners, even thought tt lostmauth pin in the a.$ is not even a 30% of the right way to create a PvE, dps, destroyer GWF? At first place comes playstyle and build, not the gears! Second comes to distribute stat points to proper place/proper way to equip/ and after that comes gears and THE set. Without first two, you can have top iLvl/ assuming tt iLvl shows how much shiny stuff you put/, but to be totally useless in the party.
Note: I have almost BIS CW and more than an average TR. Also I don't forget in CW, what is "C" stand for and what TR means. Can say tt what I can do with my totally BIS GWF, I can do with both characters/ mean HE and other single player stuff/. Somethings I can do easy with GWF, somethings I can do easy with the others.
Solo mobs hit less hard than eCC or eGWD or eToS mobs.
In fact, look at Lazalia videos in dungeons. In solo, he uses negation. In dungeons, soulforged. And he SF here and there even with good DCs/ OPs usually in his group.
Cutthroat in eCC oneshots me through my 95-100k HP, and almost kills me even with temp hp on.
You can dodge and avalanche and position but here's the point: you, as a GWF, in epic dungeons, fight with interruptions. Hit some, dodge some, plus avalanche is not optimal for DPS (focused destroyer buff lasting less than the daily windup time), so you're not always dealing damage. And you take more risks for obvious reasons cause you fight in melee range and most mobs and read area/ heavy attacks are melee range attacks.
A ranged DPS, say a SW, is safe in range behind his group, far from attacks, dealing damage non-stop. No dodge, no risk/ little risk if the tank is good and the DC/ OP is good too.
What devs said at the start of module 6 was that GWFs were dealing "enough damage FOR THE RISKS THEY TAKE".
And that's the point imho.
GWFs take more risks. Fighting in melee in current dungeons is more risky in current dungeons. So melee DPS deal more damage cause they take more risks except for few situations (for example spiderlings in eToS boss can target any member of the group and the melee ones are capable of oneshotting or almost oneshotting geared players).
This is how i see it.
The only class imho should come close to GWF DPS is the SW cause they are DPS-only classes, so they must be the ranged alternative to a GWF if you want some heavy DPS.
Other classes, no, cause they either bring more utility (CW/trapper CC, smoke bomb lasting more than FLS), or take less risks (being ranged or being immune/ invisible often).
If tank is good at holding aggro, then what a SW does is non-stop DPS from a safe zone. For sure they are not fighting in melee range where you have to dodge a lot, am i right?
Also, fighting in melee range a little mistake means the enemy hits you 0.5s later.
Fighting from range means that, even if you grab aggro for a second, either:
- the tank manages to grab aggro back if he's good
- some CC class alts the mob while he's walking towards you
which is more likely to happen if you don't have to fight the mob in so close range that it could actually kiss you.
That's the reason why you see SWs go SB en masse right now -- folks just don't like dying in one glorious swipe.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
that is the point: no. be striker is put a lot of damage as he can w/o retaliation. is the mix between mobility and damage.
rogue for example have a dodge. stealth (more emblematic, impossible) and a lot of sinergy to control. in that he is far, far superior than gwfs. and STILL do very well your secundary function, control.
if you take a solo gameplay, ok, i do far more damage so the fight will be more fast and the attacks s not strong enough to killme (unstoppable+sprint here makes a difference). when a enemie is able to oneshot, you see the big diference between both gameplays. sws and rangers seens a little messed for now, i can not say much about that (my theory is= this classes will be "purged" before to receiving some buff... rogues will need the same before to ask about some buff w/o create a nw armageon).
"The question becomes this - What IS reasonable? 10%? 30%? 80% more? Its not for me to decide but my OPINION would be that at a similar level of gear any lead ranging in excess of 50% is unreasonable."
here is the thing historically speaking: in my opinion the damage must be measured by the class that always had the supremacy. In this case, cws. I believe a primary striker should do x times more damage than a secondary striker in the same proportion that a secondary striker do "x" times more damage than a non striker. today that is +/- 8 times (bizarre)
then, if you ask me if the damage of hrs/rogues/sws and even gwf is ok or no, my answer is no: need some buff (or... you know. down the diference between the 3 levels is better in my opinion/ 2/3x times between strikers/secundary strikers/defenders). but should also be a hierarchy among the strikers. then the discussion is a little more complicated.
just to remember we are aspeak about a melee class w/o dodge in a tree 100% striker. you can not speak about down that damage or up other damages w/o think about compensations. and just to remember: that difference is just a pride problem. dont have a objective porpose. if you look for pvp, that is far more cleare.
@everyone else
Well, I think I have bombarded this thread enough regarding my opinions so I'll leave it there. I guess my stance at the present is simply don't nerf GWF pve dps.
I don't see that it takes much risk at all -- where is there any risk in this game? The GWF has plenty of tools to mitigate any risk and everyone can qualify 'risk' as that which they have the least handle on adjusting to. If such is that they always deal waaaaaaaaay more dmg than any other striker then they become the ONLY striker.
Of course it's the class that deals the most damage. We have a hugeass Greatsword with us.
And IT IS the highest risk. We run in front and engage the enemy like REAL MEN.
GWF is in a good spot at the moment. A TR with two toothpicks isn't supposed to outdamage a man of steel.
1. Risk for GWF in dungeon = Got CWs in grp they still thinking they must make dps instead of CC? Huge risk
2. Risk for GWF in dungeon = Got TRs in grp they use smokebomb wrong or just to late/early? Huge risk
3. Risk for GWF in dungeon = Got a "Dps" Pala in grp with no ability to hold aggro from any kind of mob/boss? Huge risk
Just some points ^^.
And plz enlight me: Wot do you mean with "plenty" tools? We are talking about an DPS Destroyer SM GWF, i guess. Wot kinda tools do they have?
^^ This ^^ Seems I miss something in GWF mechanics.
If GWF is DPS Destroyer IV like me, FLS gives you sooooo much control in the dungeons, with all the CC immunity of the mobs there, even the CONTROL wizards are petrified. Something like 0.8 sec of prone max, not to say tt high lvl mobs start to hit again even before they are knocked. Hmmm indeed it's a great tool. But not to forget my greatest tools - soulforged enchantment and scrolls of life/mass life.
Aaah and GWFs are not taking any risks, not at all. They are sitting far away from the battle, they never see red circles and eating peanuts all the time. If some mob surprisingly comes close to them, they can dodge, teleport, roll over, do a backflip, become invisible and avoid any attack.
ninja weapon fighter ftw
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
Haha okay I can play this game too.
Of cousre it's the class that deals the most damage as it is the class that deals the most damage -- duh. The size of your rear end has nothing to do with it.
Just because you are poorly skilled in playing this particularly easy game does not qualify the risk you place upon yourself from lack of any talent to have any bearing on an evaluation. This is a classical non sequitur. Any class can run straight into danger and expose themselves to the most perilous of risk possible and put themselves in far more danger than a GWF would be in. This does not make one a man. You are obviously not Caitlyn/Bruce so you must be going the other way, and I am not sure where you are in your operation but you are seriously confused about what makes a man (but of course your confusion is apparent by default and does not warrant further discussion).
Not sure what a TR has to do with this discussion but okay, and also if you want to play a super hero you do know that PWE has a game like that?
This applies to everyone, though, and not just the GWF. The GWF exposes others to risk just as often by gaining aggro and then sprinting to the back where everyone is trying to position with some degree of safety and I have conditioned myself to always take an away side when I get aggro in this fashion. I am not going to tell you how to play a GWF, there are others on these forums with far more skill than me at it that can manage feats I am unable to as of yet, but it isn't complex and certainly not rocket science.