The big issue I have with all of this is this was supposed to be in the game at the start of mod 6 now 2 months later... pvp is altogether different once this goes live.
Oh 100% different. Artifacts will have to be changed. Rogues will 10000000000% focus on all piercing damage. HR's will to. The Fire Wheel will be even more important. I mean sure, matches take like an hour and 30-45 now? They will be freaking endless after this if you don't get Hotenow and can't repel/knock off point as well.
I'll take his silence as he is not really sure if he wants to put this one in lol
This change will basically change the meta again in PvP, in terms of stat stacking. Would be helpful if it had actually been working at start of mod.
On that note, I think Armor Penetration Resistance being additive is a bit silly. It completely negates the point of having armor penetration under 90-100%, since you need at least 80%+ to see it have any effect, which means you need something like 9-10k armor penetration for it to be useful. Anything below that threshold is useless, so it's an "all or nothing" sort of thing, which kind of defeats the point of it, I think.
A better solution would be to implement APR as a multiplicative value, i.e. 80% APR reduces the effectiveness of incoming RI by 80%. Let's say your opponent has 40% tenacity (80% APR), and you have 60% RI, and they have 20% DR. The damage formula for that becomes DMG * (1 - 0.2 + ((1 - 0.4) * (1 - 0.8)) * (1 - 0.4). In other words, you have 60% RI, and the effectiveness of that is reduced by 80%, leaving your "real" RI to be 12% against your opponent's 20% DR. This means that ARP would be roughly 550 points = 1% RI, which is reasonable when you compare it to other stats, seeing as 1% RI > 1% damage if you're mitigating their defenses (vs a target with 50% DR, 1% RI is 1% damage, whereas 1% damage is 0.5% damage after mitigation calculations), so it would encourage some armor penetration stacking without rendering all values of armor penetration useless.
Looking at the posts here from a decent sum of Dedicated PVP'ers we can see that none of us like this idea. it effectivly means once you are facing people with full PVP burning gear. you need Over 8000 ARPEN for the stat to even have an effect. and if you have under that. its basically just wasted stat points on gear.
Please take a look at this thread again and look at some of the suggestions, A lot of players in here live and breathe pvp. with 80% resist from burning set as an effective wall. the amount you have too stack for any actual benefit is just crazy, and also further increases the power gap between high end players, and middle tier players. (As well as making piercing damage effectively even MORE powerful). it also essentially means PVP players cannot do PvE as effectively as they would have to have such a high investment over the DR caps of PvE mobs. for it too work in PvP.
Personally I think the below is best. Make it multiplicative... as then we don't have the stigma of RI being useless in PVP below a certain %. and still get some benefit from our stat investment. I currently have 61% RI, which I think its pretty high tbh. so with 80% multiplicative resist. that would be 12.2% of my arpen actually working, while low. I would at least know they stat investment isnt useless.
This change will basically change the meta again in PvP, in terms of stat stacking. Would be helpful if it had actually been working at start of mod.
On that note, I think Armor Penetration Resistance being additive is a bit silly. It completely negates the point of having armor penetration under 90-100%, since you need at least 80%+ to see it have any effect, which means you need something like 9-10k armor penetration for it to be useful. Anything below that threshold is useless, so it's an "all or nothing" sort of thing, which kind of defeats the point of it, I think.
A better solution would be to implement APR as a multiplicative value, i.e. 80% APR reduces the effectiveness of incoming RI by 80%. Let's say your opponent has 40% tenacity (80% APR), and you have 60% RI, and they have 20% DR. The damage formula for that becomes DMG * (1 - 0.2 + ((1 - 0.4) * (1 - 0.8)) * (1 - 0.4). In other words, you have 60% RI, and the effectiveness of that is reduced by 80%, leaving your "real" RI to be 12% against your opponent's 20% DR. This means that ARP would be roughly 550 points = 1% RI, which is reasonable when you compare it to other stats, seeing as 1% RI > 1% damage if you're mitigating their defenses (vs a target with 50% DR, 1% RI is 1% damage, whereas 1% damage is 0.5% damage after mitigation calculations), so it would encourage some armor penetration stacking without rendering all values of armor penetration useless.
Yea well this is a sort of working solution to this situation.
However arpen and piercing as it exist is a dead end and only complicates things.
There is a saying in project management when it comes to complex planning - Make it elegant but KEEP IT SIMPLE and when not possible MAKE IT SIMPLE.
Layer upon layer that is depending on eachother is the mother of all f-kups especially when it comes to programming.
You have damage and you have defence now keep that simple and devide damage at least in magic and physical and you probably need a 3rd element also that is handling dots like poison.
Once you separated the different sources of damage into separate layers that arent depending on eachother you can easely adress each damage vs resist.
Arpen, piercing, dodge, cw shield, temporery hp etc etc layer upon layer upon layer all interacting with eachother making new spell/powers a nightmare for programmers (not to mention new programmers) resulting in all these never ending bugs we see every single time something new is implemented(transc enchantments anybody is even 1 of them working as intended?).
Make an overhaul of the damage-resist system and keep it simple or live with things that will get worse with every single new piece of programming put into this game......
Yea well this is a sort of working solution to this situation.
However arpen and piercing as it exist is a dead end and only complicates things.
There is a saying in project management when it comes to complex planning - Make it elegant but KEEP IT SIMPLE and when not possible MAKE IT SIMPLE.
Layer upon layer that is depending on eachother is the mother of all f-kups especially when it comes to programming.
You have damage and you have defence now keep that simple and devide damage at least in magic and physical and you probably need a 3rd element also that is handling dots like poison.
Once you separated the different sources of damage into separate layers that arent depending on eachother you can easely adress each damage vs resist.
Arpen, piercing, dodge, cw shield, temporery hp etc etc layer upon layer upon layer all interacting with eachother making new spell/powers a nightmare for programmers (not to mention new programmers) resulting in all these never ending bugs we see every single time something new is implemented(transc enchantments anybody is even 1 of them working as intended?).
Make an overhaul of the damage-resist system and keep it simple or live with things that will get worse with every single new piece of programming put into this game...
The above is probably the single most important post made by a player in mod6.
Having a nuanced but streamlined system of stats/interactions is one thing, but having a rube goldberg
Contraption in code form is quite another.
You really need to fight a good pally. An HR will never, and I mean never kill a good pally. You shouldn't even come close. I know with a wheel you can do some burst but trust me, if you took a pally out, he was horrible.
generally good pally is stalemate. Kill able if he makes mistakes and you dodge divine well.
Pally is good in defense/heal but poor in damage. with good build he can possibly get HR to 20% but then I would just outheal. Again good HR build required.
Trick is to get paly disrupted at right time. some people use wheel as well. Tron ward, disruptive, slashers ets. It become a bit hard for protection OPs. But again - best OP -I would not be so sure for kill 1 vs 1 in reasonable time. Also I may just fk up. But 80% of OP out there - very much likely kill able 1vs1.
Make an overhaul of the damage-resist system and keep it simple or live with things that will get worse with every single new piece of programming put into this game......
I wish so much they would finally make it real D&D system with 4 defenses as it should be. Simple and agile system as it is designed. Anyway thumbs up for the post. Agree.
PS +1 for idea of "to be implement APR as a multiplicative value". HR burning gear atm with all r12 ArpPen build gives only 12k Arm Pen.
All my testing shows Thorned Roots working as expected with armor penetration. What cases do Roots not work with arpen?
There not just far from understanding common scene at some point, they are also far from even testing known stuff. My hope is that this silence and solid agreement of pvp community would make a difference here. At least I do hope for Devs and Mr Crush to answer this thread and chime in for explanation of this changes
Problem with DC /PF ets not DR ~ 150%. It will still be capped at 80%. Problem is that DPS classes will do only 20% damage from each hit. For difference my HR does 100% -110% (buff) effectiveness to majority of DCs. And still killing DC in burning with negation 1 vs 1 , with almost perma daze is hardly done. One OP took me 10 minutes to finally take him down once.
Yes, however having a DC with 150% effective DR PLUS 80% ARP resistance means you will NEVER EVER EVER see ANY benefit from ARP no matter how high you stack it. Even if you somehow got it to stack to like 16k! Youd still not end up with enough ARP to bring their ARP Restance to 0% THEn work on their DR to get it <80%. So you will get ZERO benefit even from 10k stats!
THE SOLUTION: Crush needs to ALSO fix DR. Currently it is:
DR - max(Arpen - ArpenRes,0) is basically how it works.
I think anything ABOVE 80% can count as a “added arp resistance” however this should be a MAX of 100%. What this code would then be changed to is:
min(DR,100) - max(Arpen - ArpenRes,0)
What this means is even if you can get up to 150%, it will effectively CAP you at 100% for the purposes of ARP. So what that means is a target at its MOST “resistance” possible would have 100% DR + 80% ARP resist. Meaning if you can somehow get OVER 100% RI you would start negating the actual BASE DR of the player and take them <80% DR.
The big issue I have with all of this is this was supposed to be in the game at the start of mod 6 now 2 months later... pvp is altogether different once this goes live.
This is the BIGGEST issue I have is because players have tested things, made MASSIVE AD investments assuming it was WAI – because we DON’T get info from DEVs. Then all the sudden this is going to roll out and make ARP 100% Worthless?!?!
Why would you want to kill paly when you can just outcap him? If you look at average amount of kills in GG/Domi you'll realize that armor pen is pretty balanced. If you really want these over 9k armor pen you will have to sacrifice some other stats and that's perfectly fine.
Get 4 Mythical Artifacts 1k armor pen each, Armor pen jeverly, enchants maybe even P.Terror.
Most players here act like they simply didnt want to adapt with their gear or builds, because facerolling is what they find fun.
It has nothing to do with “adapting”. Even if you want to stack ARP to 9k, do you know how much ARP you will get? About 76%. Well congrats because that 9k ARP did ZERO EFFECTIVENESS. That is the real issue. You will need to get about 9500 to break 80%.
What is even worse then is lets say you get 11000 ARP and are around 90%. So you are “effectively” at 10% ARP after arp resist. Wait until a DC or pally comes by and buffs that target and itll moot out ALL of those ARP stats.
That is what people are mad at. Not JUST that it’s a big investment that requires a TON of AD to reallocate stats around (like swapping a few mythic artifacts for something else to get 2k more ARP) but its ALSO that even if you do heavily invest and get 9k+ or 9,500+ ARP, itll still have nearly ZERO effect on your target and especially against certain classes itll have ZERO/NONE effect.
Oh 100% different. Artifacts will have to be changed. Rogues will 10000000000% focus on all piercing damage. HR's will to. The Fire Wheel will be even more important. I mean sure, matches take like an hour and 30-45 now? They will be freaking endless after this if you don't get Hotenow and can't repel/knock off point as well.
I'll take his silence as he is not really sure if he wants to put this one in lol
YUP. Basically makes TRs even MORE powerful by comparison because now Shadowy Opportunity and other forms of piercing damage have EVEN MORE of an unfair advantage….. Can we seriously just make Piercing damage attack with +100% ARP so TRs will FINALLY have to actually STACK a stat other than Power? They get both Crit and ARP for free in their builds!
I think the THREE best options would be to look at: 1) Keep it addative but make it the SAME as Crit Resistance or Tenacity: 40% is the MAX. This way players who stack 80%+ will still get a substantial benefit in PVP (40% ARP). 2) Make it like Recovery. This formula would basically be PVP ARP: ARP/(1+ARP resist). Basically in PVP this would be: RI/1.8. Meaning if you have 80% ARP itll = 44.4% ARP. 3) Make it multiplicative. This would be another one that seems more fair, however when you compare classes that can overcap DR to crazy amounts it just doesn’t seem that fair IMO….
Basically PVP ARP = RI * (1-ARP RESIST). So for most players this would be ARP*20% = new ARP. So at 80% RI you would be around 16% in pvp.
This #3 option REQUIRES The 100% CAP on DR though: min(DR,100) - max(Arpen - ArpenRes,0)
So this makes a player who can stack 110% RI total gives them 22% ARP meaning they actually took OFF 2% from a DC who is able to get WELL over 100% DR. So making it capped would allow that 110% RI player to get ~10% boost in damage (2% more off normal 20%) which seems VERY fair to me.
We all seem to agree that this is a really bad idea. As others are mentioning, any changes that limit diversity are bad. Every stat really should matter. I understand that certain levels of certain stats are going to be optimal. However, forcing players to stack any stat to be viable makes absolutely no sense.
What makes even less sense is a system in which you can stack a stat extremely high, but if you don't take that stat 10% higher, it is utterly useless. I don't have the time or inclination to go deep with the math in this game. I don't ignore it either. I say this because even the most casual of players can look at this and figure out real quick that this is a really bad idea.
Common sense needs to prevail before the system goes out of whack more than it is already.
Yeah..... Sometimes I think the DEVs over think things, or maybe dont think it far enough through...
I mean Crush pointed out "You need atleast 40% in pvp" ALMOST makes me want to believe that they never intended it to scale up with tenacity. But that doesnt make sense either...
Or MAYBE it was intended to be HALF the effectiveness and match all the other stats at 40% on the top end. So maybe THAT would make more sense - because it IS easy to get 40% however then you still have the same issue: Players get zero benefit <40%. Then get a TON of benefit on that next 10%.....
It almost seems like the "recovery" equation would work really well:
Final RI = Current RI / (1+Arp Resistance).
So if you had 50% RI on a target with 80% Arp Resist:
50% / (1+80%) = 27.7% Final ARP.
@ 80% RI (PVE threshold) against a PVP user with 80% Arp Resist:
80% / (1+80%) = 44.45% Final Arp.
So this seems to make sense to me.... If you stack ARP really high you can mitigate alot of your targets defenses. Stacking a stat to get 80% though requires ALOT of stacking (by my math it would require ~9000 - 9500) so its obviously at the cost of ALOT of stats....
This makes it still a very valuable stat and actually the higher you stack ARP the more important Power becomes since it would put players back into the "normal" ranges of DR making Power more effective...... Would ARP stacking be the best for PVP? Probably..... However against ULTRA high DR targets that have 130-150% DR, itll end up getting negated completely...
If it works additively when implemented correctly. Then essentially its useless unless you go nuts with it. I happen to have what I see as a LOT of arpen atm (like. 80% + % resist ignore). with the additive calculations however, This is actually useless in PVP. as its ALL absorbed by Arpen resist.
If its going to be additive. it should be scaled just like the other PVP stats, if its going to be Multiplicativly, Then maybe 1.5x (60% max) Scaling is okay, but 80% is just too much imo. If forcing PvP players who want their arpen to be useful to go up above 100% resist ignore becomes how it is. then these same PVPers are even further alienated from the PvE community as half their armorpen is effectively useless, and other stat allocation would have more relevance.
with the current ability in PvP too stack masses of buffs and Damage reducing skills from Clerics / OP. its amazing that damage even gets dealt. I've had 60k damage hits ENTIRELY mitigated by a cleric down to like 3-4k before (Astral shield mostly)
Also.. how does crit resist work? is it multiplicative? or additive. Does it resist 40% of your crit's overall damage on top of all the other resists? (making crits barely stronger than normal hits) or does it just essentially block 40% of your crit severity.
TL;DR , Arpen resist should either be multiplicative , scaled down, or both. questions about crit resist
Currently Piercing damage in PVP is FAR more effective than any other type in the game, as it ignores ALL stacked DR, and isnt affected by things like Arpen / Resist / mitigation.
Armor Penetration on Armor (and rings/necks/etc) is now part of their base stat allocation (just like power on weapons and defense on armor). This is because we use it as part of the dungeon tier delineations (the same way WoW used to use their Hit stat, only we don't make you miss whole swings). This means, barring other sources of RI (Con or Enchants for example), wearing all of the gear of a given dungeon tier gives you exactly enough Arpen to eliminate all of the resistance enemies have. This means that as dungeon tiers increase their defenses raise rapidly, making armor penetration on critters a VERY useful stat. This also means that it uses a wildly different scale than the rest of our stats. It increases much faster than any of our other stats (so we don't have to give you ridiculous amounts of it instead) but this obviously had implications on PVP. Armor Penetration Resistance in PVP is designed to ratchet it back into what are more expected levels of piercing given that players have far less DR than foes, especially as equipment tiers rise. That said, it might be giving too much Arpen resistance (because we are looking at two differently scaling stats on two wholly different curves it is rather difficult to get them to line up).
Here, i bolded for you crush's explanation as to why armpen doesn't scale at 400:1
Guild - The Imaginary Friends We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Just make ARP scale the same as other stats. 400 = 1%. Problem solved.
Yeah that doesnt fix it at all. just makes it even more useless in PVP. the problem isnt Arpen's scaling ratio. its how they plan to fix / implement / how ARPEN resist HAS been implemented. prior to hitting 80%. it gives you nothing (vs targets wearing burning) After hittng 80%, it scales up your potential damage far faster than any other stat in the game versus targets with up to 80% max dr, targets with dr Above the cap, it requires even more before you start too see any return.
Yeah that doesnt fix it at all. just makes it even more useless in PVP. the problem isnt Arpen's scaling ratio. its how they plan to fix / implement / how ARPEN resist HAS been implemented. prior to hitting 80%. it gives you nothing (vs targets wearing burning) After hittng 80%, it scales up your potential damage far faster than any other stat in the game versus targets with up to 80% max dr, targets with dr Above the cap, it requires even more before you start too see any return.
No, why would you keep arp resistance if you changed the stat scaling? If you changed it to 400 = 1% and removed arp res, it becomes just like any other stat. Common sense.
remove the diminishing returns of it.
maybe nerf the DR of DC/PALADINS they can get up, or give them crapy base DR from the beginning.
And this is why the DR forumula should be changed to:
DR = MIN(DR,100) making the MOST "DR" you can have 100% where 80% is the cap for the game.
This means that while anything OVER 80% DR is "capped" and then counts towards "ARP resist" even further, it should be CAPPED at 100%.
Im not sold on just removing the diminishing returns I think the best solutions are:
1) Make it work like Recovery:
Final RI in PVP = Current RI / (1+Arp Resistance).
This is ROUGHLY RI / 1.8 for most players....
2) Make it multiplicative.
Final RI in PVP = Current RI * (1-Arp Resistance).
This is ROUGHLY RI * .2 for most players.
The reason I LIKE #1 is that many players CAN get well above 100%. Even if you have the 100% cap as I proposed... You still have to get 80% ARP to have a NET PVP ARP of 44% which THEN on 100% DR target brings them down to ~56% DR.... Which seems reasonable. The reason I DONT like it is ARP > ALL stats.
The reason I LIKE #2 is that it makes ARP about = to all stats HOWEVER when a target has 100% DR, you would have to get to 100% DI and it would STILL not have any affect.... It would be only at 110%-120% that when attacking a max DR target, you would actually get a small % boost.
So I am torn... Another option would be:
3) Scale Arp Resistance like all the other resistances (40% Cap) and THEN you can make it additive. Its MUCH easier to reach 40% RI and then stack a few extra points and with Diminishing returns and PVE mobs... It makes ARP a VERY important stat. This also ends up reducing the effect of OVER stacking ARP since you should have adequate ARP if you have 80%+ (which would net you 40%).
Why I dont like this is it STILL makes ARP > ALL.
Heck I would almost be MORE infavor of changing the DR formula to be HARD CAPPED at 80% meaning anything extra is NOT "arp resist" because we already have that as a stat.
This would be:
Final DR = MIN(DR,80)
Meaning that if you have 100% Dr, 80% gets put in there... And NONE of that counts towards "ARP resist".
THEN you could do the #2 option and make it multiplicative. Meaning a person with 80% RI (*1-ARp REs) = 16% RI which at 80% CAP brings them down to 64% DR.
After reviewing this thread, here is my basic understanding:
- About 9000 ArP stat (80% resist ignore) counters the 80% ArP resistance from tenacity.
- ArP beyond 80% resist ignore cuts into a foes damage resistance (DR%) from defense/negation enchant/etc.
Ok, simple enough.
Suppose you stack 12,000 ArP stat (about 105% Resistance ignore) and your foe has 80% ArP resist and 30% DR from defense stat.
- Your 105% resist ignore will negate 80% ArPResist and then reduce a foes standard DR% by up to an additional 25% (negates 80% ArPResist and 25% DR).
- Net result is that you will deal 25% more damage to this foe for the 12,000 ArP stat.
Suppose you do not stack ArP stat at all and you have only -40% resist ignore.
You have a Trans terror and attack a foe who has 80% Armor penetration resist and 30% damage resist (from defense stat).
Your foe's DR% is cut from 30% to 18% by the Trans Terror defense debuff.
Trans Terror has reduced their DR by 12% but your ArP is doing nothing.
Are you doing 12% more damage?
If you're negating 25% of 30% DR, you're dealing 35% more damage.
Right, because math.
10000 dmg hit
7000 after mitigated (30% DR)
extra 2500 dmg with 25% DR mitigation nullified
2500/7000 > 36% more dmg
Likewise:
10000 dmg hit
7000 after mitigation (30% DR)
extra 1200 dmg with Tplague (30% DR debuffed to 18% DR)
1200/7000 > 17% more dmg
So you don't need tons of ArP stat for Tplague or Tterror defense debuff to give you a nice dmg boost.
As long as your foe has defense stacked, these enchants will give you a nice boost by nullifying a portion of their DR% from defense stat.
After reviewing this thread, here is my basic understanding:
- About 9000 ArP stat (80% resist ignore) counters the 80% ArP resistance from tenacity.
My Math shows it will take closer to 9,500 to get 80%. That said, many characters have ability scores and dont forget the 3% boon as well, so you could potentially get there with only 9,000 ARP which would end up with around 75%ish ARP + 3% Boon + maybe some ability score. But more or less, you are correct. You will need ATLEAST 80% RI (9500 ARP value or a combo to get to 80%)
- ArP beyond 80% resist ignore cuts into a foes damage resistance (DR%) from defense/negation enchant/etc. Correct. At the current *new* formula explained by GMC.
Ok, simple enough.
Suppose you stack 12,000 ArP stat (about 105% Resistance ignore) and your foe has 80% ArP resist and 30% DR from defense stat.
- Your 105% resist ignore will negate 80% ArPResist and then reduce a foes standard DR% by up to an additional 25% (negates 80% ArPResist and 25% DR).
- Net result is that you will deal 25% more damage to this foe for the 12,000 ArP stat.
12,000 will be more like ~95% rather than 105%. I could be wrong though.
If you DO have 105% (maybe from ability score + boon + 12,000 ARP) and your target is at 80% ARP resist and have 50% DR (since most players have Negation + base DR) then you would mitigate 25% (105%-80%) of their DR bringing them down to 25% (from 50%).
So looking at 1,000 damage. You WOULD have been netted down to 50% = 500 then * (1-40% tenacity) = 300 FINAL damage.
Versus with your new 105% ARP = 1,000 * (50% DR - (105% ARP - 80% ARp REst)) = 750 damage * (1-40% tenacity) = 450 FINAL damage. So that 105% ARP actually boosted your damage by (450/300) = 50%
Suppose you do not stack ArP stat at all and you have only -40% resist ignore.
You have a Trans terror and attack a foe who has 80% Armor penetration resist and 30% damage resist (from defense stat).
Your foe's DR% is cut from 30% to 18% by the Trans Terror defense debuff.
Trans Terror has reduced their DR by 12% but your ArP is doing nothing.
Are you doing 12% more damage?
This premise is wrong though. Terror debuffs their defense only, not total DR.
So my GWF for instance has like 21-23% DR but not all this is from Defense. I have about 6,000 Defense which = 15% DR.
So that 6,000 defense is reduced 40% = 3,600 Defense LEFT = 9% DR. So a difference of 6%.
So lets assume (which I do) That I am using Negation as well.
So PRE enchant I was at: 23% + 30% Negation. = 53% DR.
Your enchant reduced my DR by 6% leaving me with 47% DR left
So 6%/53% = 11% Damage boost
Now this could VERY easily go the other way.
If I have Countless Scars (which I do) I could have another 15% DR added to that 53% = 68% DR.
During Unstoppable I get another MINIMUM of 15% = 83% DR.
So NOW When you lower 83% by 6% it brings me to 77% DR.
NOW your enchant though boosted your damage 3%/20% = 15% DAMAGE BOOST.
However if I end up getting a DC buff. My DR will be OVER 100%. Meaning your enchant does a 0% damage buff if I have anything over 86% DR.
For PVP calculations, I use 55% DR as a solid base number. You wont kill anyone in Unstoppable (unless you spam COS as a TR) and you wont kill anyone in a DC's AS.
So its outside those buffs that matter. Most players have Negation meaning take their DR +30% and thats a good number. I use 50-55% as a solid base as a guestimate for how much DR they really have.
So your enchant would lower that 55% to 49%. 6%/55% = 11% average damage boost in PVP.
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
edited June 2015
So it sounds like we need to stack arp or none at all? And if we do stack, it will only be effective after 80%RI(or more if enemy has more than 80% DR), assuming enemy has 80% ARP resistance.
So it sounds like we need to stack arp or none at all? And if we do stack, it will only be effective after 80%RI(or more if enemy has more than 80% DR), assuming enemy has 80% ARP resistance.
Basically.
I would even say (currently) if your not gonna stack it up to like 100% RI its probably not worth it.
Whats gonna happen is, everyone will swap all their items and builds around. Then it 4 weeks from now GMC will change it to multiplicative which will diminish the need for overstacking it and then itll make some of that investment characters made a moot point since they had to sacrifice ALOT to squeeze out an extra 1k ARP after 10k stacking... So then they will redo the build again since that 1k really only ends up providing an extra 1-2% net ARP after the new multiplicative formula and it would be better for other stats....
So my honest advice. Either take a small break until its solved. Or just pretend for now that it WILL be multiplicative since that is the easiest and most simple/logical solution to the problem.
Or forget ARP altogether but just be prepared to reinvest later.
OK So wait a minute... hold the phone. Armor Penetration resistance (80% from tenacity for most) has NOT been working in pvp AT ALL all this time since mod6 launch?
This doesn't seem right based on what i've seen of ACT logs in pvp.
This means a player with only -40% resist ignored (5k ArP or so) has been cutting through tenacity base DR of 40%. This means a player with -80% resist ignore has been probably been dealing near or fully unmitigated damage to many other players instead (most pvp builds don't stack defense).
OK So wait a minute... hold the phone. Armor Penetration resistance (80% from tenacity for most) has NOT been working in pvp AT ALL all this time since mod6 launch?
This doesn't seem right based on what i've seen of ACT logs in pvp.
A player would only need -40% resist ignored to cut through tenacity DR of 40%.
Correct. ARP resist has NOT been working AT ALL since launch.
You cant cut through tenacity, its on a different layer. Think of it as "after the dust settles" DR.
FYI - when you crit, ignoring arp resistance. The math works like this:
So moot out the ARP/DR thing for now. 40% crit res and 40% tenacity means at MAX EFFECTIVENESS a Crit will be:
1,000 damage * .6 * .6 = 360 = 36% effective.
Then when you add DR and now ARP RES. Where most players have 80% ARP RES and ATLEAST 50% DR meaning chances are you wont break throug their ARP RES. You can multiply THAT # by 50% as well for an 18% effectiveness.
I have a question about this new DR vs ArP system.
We all have a basic DR stat + a PvP DR stat + ArPR stat + Tenacity = Total PvP DR stat which can surpass 80% DR. Right? IF a power which can reduce "DR" (Ray of emfeblement, in example) struck a char with more than 80% DR, this mean that the power will reduce that 80% of DR or it will be reducing from the "over 80%" stat??
The OVER DR stat.
The Tenactiy is "after the dust settles"
So FIRST calculate DR.
Lets say you attack a DC in AS with 130% DR. Who also has 80% aRP RES.
Lets pretend you dont have any ARP. Meaning you cant bypass his ARP RES. SO he has 130% DR. YOu RoE him and reduce his DR by what? 25%?
So he is now at 105% DR. which is above 80% so it basically does NOTHING.
Now if you remove him from AS, now it will actually have an impact
Comments
I'll take his silence as he is not really sure if he wants to put this one in lol
On that note, I think Armor Penetration Resistance being additive is a bit silly. It completely negates the point of having armor penetration under 90-100%, since you need at least 80%+ to see it have any effect, which means you need something like 9-10k armor penetration for it to be useful. Anything below that threshold is useless, so it's an "all or nothing" sort of thing, which kind of defeats the point of it, I think.
A better solution would be to implement APR as a multiplicative value, i.e. 80% APR reduces the effectiveness of incoming RI by 80%. Let's say your opponent has 40% tenacity (80% APR), and you have 60% RI, and they have 20% DR. The damage formula for that becomes DMG * (1 - 0.2 + ((1 - 0.4) * (1 - 0.8)) * (1 - 0.4). In other words, you have 60% RI, and the effectiveness of that is reduced by 80%, leaving your "real" RI to be 12% against your opponent's 20% DR. This means that ARP would be roughly 550 points = 1% RI, which is reasonable when you compare it to other stats, seeing as 1% RI > 1% damage if you're mitigating their defenses (vs a target with 50% DR, 1% RI is 1% damage, whereas 1% damage is 0.5% damage after mitigation calculations), so it would encourage some armor penetration stacking without rendering all values of armor penetration useless.
Please take a look at this thread again and look at some of the suggestions, A lot of players in here live and breathe pvp. with 80% resist from burning set as an effective wall. the amount you have too stack for any actual benefit is just crazy, and also further increases the power gap between high end players, and middle tier players. (As well as making piercing damage effectively even MORE powerful). it also essentially means PVP players cannot do PvE as effectively as they would have to have such a high investment over the DR caps of PvE mobs. for it too work in PvP.
Personally I think the below is best.
Make it multiplicative... as then we don't have the stigma of RI being useless in PVP below a certain %. and still get some benefit from our stat investment. I currently have 61% RI, which I think its pretty high tbh. so with 80% multiplicative resist. that would be 12.2% of my arpen actually working, while low. I would at least know they stat investment isnt useless.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Yea well this is a sort of working solution to this situation.
However arpen and piercing as it exist is a dead end and only complicates things.
There is a saying in project management when it comes to complex planning - Make it elegant but KEEP IT SIMPLE and when not possible MAKE IT SIMPLE.
Layer upon layer that is depending on eachother is the mother of all f-kups especially when it comes to programming.
You have damage and you have defence now keep that simple and devide damage at least in magic and physical and you probably need a 3rd element also that is handling dots like poison.
Once you separated the different sources of damage into separate layers that arent depending on eachother you can easely adress each damage vs resist.
Arpen, piercing, dodge, cw shield, temporery hp etc etc layer upon layer upon layer all interacting with eachother making new spell/powers a nightmare for programmers (not to mention new programmers) resulting in all these never ending bugs we see every single time something new is implemented(transc enchantments anybody is even 1 of them working as intended?).
Make an overhaul of the damage-resist system and keep it simple or live with things that will get worse with every single new piece of programming put into this game......
The above is probably the single most important post made by a player in mod6.
Having a nuanced but streamlined system of stats/interactions is one thing, but having a rube goldberg
Contraption in code form is quite another.
generally good pally is stalemate. Kill able if he makes mistakes and you dodge divine well.
Pally is good in defense/heal but poor in damage. with good build he can possibly get HR to 20% but then I would just outheal. Again good HR build required.
Trick is to get paly disrupted at right time. some people use wheel as well. Tron ward, disruptive, slashers ets. It become a bit hard for protection OPs. But again - best OP -I would not be so sure for kill 1 vs 1 in reasonable time. Also I may just fk up. But 80% of OP out there - very much likely kill able 1vs1.
I wish so much they would finally make it real D&D system with 4 defenses as it should be. Simple and agile system as it is designed. Anyway thumbs up for the post. Agree.
PS +1 for idea of "to be implement APR as a multiplicative value". HR burning gear atm with all r12 ArpPen build gives only 12k Arm Pen.
as a fair notice - this change was suggest and explained by Game Lead Designer.
I do really hope he will listen to voice of people but as this states
There not just far from understanding common scene at some point, they are also far from even testing known stuff. My hope is that this silence and solid agreement of pvp community would make a difference here. At least I do hope for Devs and Mr Crush to answer this thread and chime in for explanation of this changes
Yes, however having a DC with 150% effective DR PLUS 80% ARP resistance means you will NEVER EVER EVER see ANY benefit from ARP no matter how high you stack it. Even if you somehow got it to stack to like 16k! Youd still not end up with enough ARP to bring their ARP Restance to 0% THEn work on their DR to get it <80%. So you will get ZERO benefit even from 10k stats!
THE SOLUTION: Crush needs to ALSO fix DR. Currently it is: I think anything ABOVE 80% can count as a “added arp resistance” however this should be a MAX of 100%. What this code would then be changed to is:
min(DR,100) - max(Arpen - ArpenRes,0)
What this means is even if you can get up to 150%, it will effectively CAP you at 100% for the purposes of ARP. So what that means is a target at its MOST “resistance” possible would have 100% DR + 80% ARP resist. Meaning if you can somehow get OVER 100% RI you would start negating the actual BASE DR of the player and take them <80% DR.
This is the BIGGEST issue I have is because players have tested things, made MASSIVE AD investments assuming it was WAI – because we DON’T get info from DEVs. Then all the sudden this is going to roll out and make ARP 100% Worthless?!?!
It has nothing to do with “adapting”. Even if you want to stack ARP to 9k, do you know how much ARP you will get? About 76%. Well congrats because that 9k ARP did ZERO EFFECTIVENESS. That is the real issue. You will need to get about 9500 to break 80%.
What is even worse then is lets say you get 11000 ARP and are around 90%. So you are “effectively” at 10% ARP after arp resist. Wait until a DC or pally comes by and buffs that target and itll moot out ALL of those ARP stats.
That is what people are mad at. Not JUST that it’s a big investment that requires a TON of AD to reallocate stats around (like swapping a few mythic artifacts for something else to get 2k more ARP) but its ALSO that even if you do heavily invest and get 9k+ or 9,500+ ARP, itll still have nearly ZERO effect on your target and especially against certain classes itll have ZERO/NONE effect.
YUP. Basically makes TRs even MORE powerful by comparison because now Shadowy Opportunity and other forms of piercing damage have EVEN MORE of an unfair advantage….. Can we seriously just make Piercing damage attack with +100% ARP so TRs will FINALLY have to actually STACK a stat other than Power? They get both Crit and ARP for free in their builds!
I think the THREE best options would be to look at:
1) Keep it addative but make it the SAME as Crit Resistance or Tenacity: 40% is the MAX. This way players who stack 80%+ will still get a substantial benefit in PVP (40% ARP).
2) Make it like Recovery. This formula would basically be PVP ARP: ARP/(1+ARP resist). Basically in PVP this would be: RI/1.8. Meaning if you have 80% ARP itll = 44.4% ARP.
3) Make it multiplicative. This would be another one that seems more fair, however when you compare classes that can overcap DR to crazy amounts it just doesn’t seem that fair IMO….
Basically PVP ARP = RI * (1-ARP RESIST). So for most players this would be ARP*20% = new ARP. So at 80% RI you would be around 16% in pvp.
This #3 option REQUIRES The 100% CAP on DR though:
min(DR,100) - max(Arpen - ArpenRes,0)
So this makes a player who can stack 110% RI total gives them 22% ARP meaning they actually took OFF 2% from a DC who is able to get WELL over 100% DR. So making it capped would allow that 110% RI player to get ~10% boost in damage (2% more off normal 20%) which seems VERY fair to me.
Yeah..... Sometimes I think the DEVs over think things, or maybe dont think it far enough through...
I mean Crush pointed out "You need atleast 40% in pvp" ALMOST makes me want to believe that they never intended it to scale up with tenacity. But that doesnt make sense either...
Or MAYBE it was intended to be HALF the effectiveness and match all the other stats at 40% on the top end. So maybe THAT would make more sense - because it IS easy to get 40% however then you still have the same issue: Players get zero benefit <40%. Then get a TON of benefit on that next 10%.....
It almost seems like the "recovery" equation would work really well:
Final RI = Current RI / (1+Arp Resistance).
So if you had 50% RI on a target with 80% Arp Resist:
50% / (1+80%) = 27.7% Final ARP.
@ 80% RI (PVE threshold) against a PVP user with 80% Arp Resist:
80% / (1+80%) = 44.45% Final Arp.
So this seems to make sense to me.... If you stack ARP really high you can mitigate alot of your targets defenses. Stacking a stat to get 80% though requires ALOT of stacking (by my math it would require ~9000 - 9500) so its obviously at the cost of ALOT of stats....
This makes it still a very valuable stat and actually the higher you stack ARP the more important Power becomes since it would put players back into the "normal" ranges of DR making Power more effective...... Would ARP stacking be the best for PVP? Probably..... However against ULTRA high DR targets that have 130-150% DR, itll end up getting negated completely...
If it works additively when implemented correctly. Then essentially its useless unless you go nuts with it. I happen to have what I see as a LOT of arpen atm (like. 80% + % resist ignore). with the additive calculations however, This is actually useless in PVP. as its ALL absorbed by Arpen resist.
If its going to be additive. it should be scaled just like the other PVP stats, if its going to be Multiplicativly, Then maybe 1.5x (60% max) Scaling is okay, but 80% is just too much imo. If forcing PvP players who want their arpen to be useful to go up above 100% resist ignore becomes how it is. then these same PVPers are even further alienated from the PvE community as half their armorpen is effectively useless, and other stat allocation would have more relevance.
with the current ability in PvP too stack masses of buffs and Damage reducing skills from Clerics / OP. its amazing that damage even gets dealt. I've had 60k damage hits ENTIRELY mitigated by a cleric down to like 3-4k before (Astral shield mostly)
Also.. how does crit resist work? is it multiplicative? or additive. Does it resist 40% of your crit's overall damage on top of all the other resists? (making crits barely stronger than normal hits) or does it just essentially block 40% of your crit severity.
TL;DR , Arpen resist should either be multiplicative , scaled down, or both. questions about crit resist
Currently Piercing damage in PVP is FAR more effective than any other type in the game, as it ignores ALL stacked DR, and isnt affected by things like Arpen / Resist / mitigation.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Here, i bolded for you crush's explanation as to why armpen doesn't scale at 400:1
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
No, why would you keep arp resistance if you changed the stat scaling? If you changed it to 400 = 1% and removed arp res, it becomes just like any other stat. Common sense.
And this is why the DR forumula should be changed to:
DR = MIN(DR,100) making the MOST "DR" you can have 100% where 80% is the cap for the game.
This means that while anything OVER 80% DR is "capped" and then counts towards "ARP resist" even further, it should be CAPPED at 100%.
Im not sold on just removing the diminishing returns I think the best solutions are:
1) Make it work like Recovery:
Final RI in PVP = Current RI / (1+Arp Resistance).
This is ROUGHLY RI / 1.8 for most players....
2) Make it multiplicative.
Final RI in PVP = Current RI * (1-Arp Resistance).
This is ROUGHLY RI * .2 for most players.
The reason I LIKE #1 is that many players CAN get well above 100%. Even if you have the 100% cap as I proposed... You still have to get 80% ARP to have a NET PVP ARP of 44% which THEN on 100% DR target brings them down to ~56% DR.... Which seems reasonable. The reason I DONT like it is ARP > ALL stats.
The reason I LIKE #2 is that it makes ARP about = to all stats HOWEVER when a target has 100% DR, you would have to get to 100% DI and it would STILL not have any affect.... It would be only at 110%-120% that when attacking a max DR target, you would actually get a small % boost.
So I am torn... Another option would be:
3) Scale Arp Resistance like all the other resistances (40% Cap) and THEN you can make it additive. Its MUCH easier to reach 40% RI and then stack a few extra points and with Diminishing returns and PVE mobs... It makes ARP a VERY important stat. This also ends up reducing the effect of OVER stacking ARP since you should have adequate ARP if you have 80%+ (which would net you 40%).
Why I dont like this is it STILL makes ARP > ALL.
Heck I would almost be MORE infavor of changing the DR formula to be HARD CAPPED at 80% meaning anything extra is NOT "arp resist" because we already have that as a stat.
This would be:
Final DR = MIN(DR,80)
Meaning that if you have 100% Dr, 80% gets put in there... And NONE of that counts towards "ARP resist".
THEN you could do the #2 option and make it multiplicative. Meaning a person with 80% RI (*1-ARp REs) = 16% RI which at 80% CAP brings them down to 64% DR.
THIS seems the MOST balanced.....
- About 9000 ArP stat (80% resist ignore) counters the 80% ArP resistance from tenacity.
- ArP beyond 80% resist ignore cuts into a foes damage resistance (DR%) from defense/negation enchant/etc.
Ok, simple enough.
Suppose you stack 12,000 ArP stat (about 105% Resistance ignore) and your foe has 80% ArP resist and 30% DR from defense stat.
- Your 105% resist ignore will negate 80% ArPResist and then reduce a foes standard DR% by up to an additional 25% (negates 80% ArPResist and 25% DR).
- Net result is that you will deal 25% more damage to this foe for the 12,000 ArP stat.
Correct?
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Suppose you do not stack ArP stat at all and you have only -40% resist ignore.
You have a Trans terror and attack a foe who has 80% Armor penetration resist and 30% damage resist (from defense stat).
Your foe's DR% is cut from 30% to 18% by the Trans Terror defense debuff.
Trans Terror has reduced their DR by 12% but your ArP is doing nothing.
Are you doing 12% more damage?
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
It seems to go on preview now. Can someone please check if they adjusted it or as usual don't give a fk of what players think?
Right, because math.
10000 dmg hit
7000 after mitigated (30% DR)
extra 2500 dmg with 25% DR mitigation nullified
2500/7000 > 36% more dmg
Likewise:
10000 dmg hit
7000 after mitigation (30% DR)
extra 1200 dmg with Tplague (30% DR debuffed to 18% DR)
1200/7000 > 17% more dmg
So you don't need tons of ArP stat for Tplague or Tterror defense debuff to give you a nice dmg boost.
As long as your foe has defense stacked, these enchants will give you a nice boost by nullifying a portion of their DR% from defense stat.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Can you please provide details of your calculation?
Answers in green.
This premise is wrong though. Terror debuffs their defense only, not total DR.
So my GWF for instance has like 21-23% DR but not all this is from Defense. I have about 6,000 Defense which = 15% DR.
So that 6,000 defense is reduced 40% = 3,600 Defense LEFT = 9% DR. So a difference of 6%.
So lets assume (which I do) That I am using Negation as well.
So PRE enchant I was at: 23% + 30% Negation. = 53% DR.
Your enchant reduced my DR by 6% leaving me with 47% DR left
So 6%/53% = 11% Damage boost
Now this could VERY easily go the other way.
If I have Countless Scars (which I do) I could have another 15% DR added to that 53% = 68% DR.
During Unstoppable I get another MINIMUM of 15% = 83% DR.
So NOW When you lower 83% by 6% it brings me to 77% DR.
NOW your enchant though boosted your damage 3%/20% = 15% DAMAGE BOOST.
However if I end up getting a DC buff. My DR will be OVER 100%. Meaning your enchant does a 0% damage buff if I have anything over 86% DR.
For PVP calculations, I use 55% DR as a solid base number. You wont kill anyone in Unstoppable (unless you spam COS as a TR) and you wont kill anyone in a DC's AS.
So its outside those buffs that matter. Most players have Negation meaning take their DR +30% and thats a good number. I use 50-55% as a solid base as a guestimate for how much DR they really have.
So your enchant would lower that 55% to 49%. 6%/55% = 11% average damage boost in PVP.
Basically.
I would even say (currently) if your not gonna stack it up to like 100% RI its probably not worth it.
Whats gonna happen is, everyone will swap all their items and builds around. Then it 4 weeks from now GMC will change it to multiplicative which will diminish the need for overstacking it and then itll make some of that investment characters made a moot point since they had to sacrifice ALOT to squeeze out an extra 1k ARP after 10k stacking... So then they will redo the build again since that 1k really only ends up providing an extra 1-2% net ARP after the new multiplicative formula and it would be better for other stats....
So my honest advice. Either take a small break until its solved. Or just pretend for now that it WILL be multiplicative since that is the easiest and most simple/logical solution to the problem.
Or forget ARP altogether but just be prepared to reinvest later.
This doesn't seem right based on what i've seen of ACT logs in pvp.
This means a player with only -40% resist ignored (5k ArP or so) has been cutting through tenacity base DR of 40%. This means a player with -80% resist ignore has been probably been dealing near or fully unmitigated damage to many other players instead (most pvp builds don't stack defense).
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Correct. ARP resist has NOT been working AT ALL since launch.
You cant cut through tenacity, its on a different layer. Think of it as "after the dust settles" DR.
FYI - when you crit, ignoring arp resistance. The math works like this:
Crit damage * (1-(DR-MAX(ARP-ARP RES)) * (1-Crit Resistance) * (1-Tenacity Resistance).
So moot out the ARP/DR thing for now. 40% crit res and 40% tenacity means at MAX EFFECTIVENESS a Crit will be:
1,000 damage * .6 * .6 = 360 = 36% effective.
Then when you add DR and now ARP RES. Where most players have 80% ARP RES and ATLEAST 50% DR meaning chances are you wont break throug their ARP RES. You can multiply THAT # by 50% as well for an 18% effectiveness.
The OVER DR stat.
The Tenactiy is "after the dust settles"
So FIRST calculate DR.
Lets say you attack a DC in AS with 130% DR. Who also has 80% aRP RES.
Lets pretend you dont have any ARP. Meaning you cant bypass his ARP RES. SO he has 130% DR. YOu RoE him and reduce his DR by what? 25%?
So he is now at 105% DR. which is above 80% so it basically does NOTHING.
Now if you remove him from AS, now it will actually have an impact