After reviewing this thread, here is my basic understanding:
- About 9000 ArP stat (80% resist ignore) counters the 80% ArP resistance from tenacity.
- ArP beyond 80% resist ignore cuts into a foes damage resistance (DR%) from defense/negation enchant/etc.
Ok, simple enough.
Suppose you stack 12,000 ArP stat (about 105% Resistance ignore) and your foe has 80% ArP resist and 30% DR from defense stat.
- Your 105% resist ignore will negate 80% ArPResist and then reduce a foes standard DR% by up to an additional 25% (negates 80% ArPResist and 25% DR).
- Net result is that you will deal 25% more damage to this foe for the 12,000 ArP stat.
Suppose you do not stack ArP stat at all and you have only -40% resist ignore.
You have a Trans terror and attack a foe who has 80% Armor penetration resist and 30% damage resist (from defense stat).
Your foe's DR% is cut from 30% to 18% by the Trans Terror defense debuff.
Trans Terror has reduced their DR by 12% but your ArP is doing nothing.
Are you doing 12% more damage?
If you're negating 25% of 30% DR, you're dealing 35% more damage.
Right, because math.
10000 dmg hit
7000 after mitigated (30% DR)
extra 2500 dmg with 25% DR mitigation nullified
2500/7000 > 36% more dmg
Likewise:
10000 dmg hit
7000 after mitigation (30% DR)
extra 1200 dmg with Tplague (30% DR debuffed to 18% DR)
1200/7000 > 17% more dmg
So you don't need tons of ArP stat for Tplague or Tterror defense debuff to give you a nice dmg boost.
As long as your foe has defense stacked, these enchants will give you a nice boost by nullifying a portion of their DR% from defense stat.
After reviewing this thread, here is my basic understanding:
- About 9000 ArP stat (80% resist ignore) counters the 80% ArP resistance from tenacity.
My Math shows it will take closer to 9,500 to get 80%. That said, many characters have ability scores and dont forget the 3% boon as well, so you could potentially get there with only 9,000 ARP which would end up with around 75%ish ARP + 3% Boon + maybe some ability score. But more or less, you are correct. You will need ATLEAST 80% RI (9500 ARP value or a combo to get to 80%)
- ArP beyond 80% resist ignore cuts into a foes damage resistance (DR%) from defense/negation enchant/etc. Correct. At the current *new* formula explained by GMC.
Ok, simple enough.
Suppose you stack 12,000 ArP stat (about 105% Resistance ignore) and your foe has 80% ArP resist and 30% DR from defense stat.
- Your 105% resist ignore will negate 80% ArPResist and then reduce a foes standard DR% by up to an additional 25% (negates 80% ArPResist and 25% DR).
- Net result is that you will deal 25% more damage to this foe for the 12,000 ArP stat.
12,000 will be more like ~95% rather than 105%. I could be wrong though.
If you DO have 105% (maybe from ability score + boon + 12,000 ARP) and your target is at 80% ARP resist and have 50% DR (since most players have Negation + base DR) then you would mitigate 25% (105%-80%) of their DR bringing them down to 25% (from 50%).
So looking at 1,000 damage. You WOULD have been netted down to 50% = 500 then * (1-40% tenacity) = 300 FINAL damage.
Versus with your new 105% ARP = 1,000 * (50% DR - (105% ARP - 80% ARp REst)) = 750 damage * (1-40% tenacity) = 450 FINAL damage. So that 105% ARP actually boosted your damage by (450/300) = 50%
Suppose you do not stack ArP stat at all and you have only -40% resist ignore.
You have a Trans terror and attack a foe who has 80% Armor penetration resist and 30% damage resist (from defense stat).
Your foe's DR% is cut from 30% to 18% by the Trans Terror defense debuff.
Trans Terror has reduced their DR by 12% but your ArP is doing nothing.
Are you doing 12% more damage?
This premise is wrong though. Terror debuffs their defense only, not total DR.
So my GWF for instance has like 21-23% DR but not all this is from Defense. I have about 6,000 Defense which = 15% DR.
So that 6,000 defense is reduced 40% = 3,600 Defense LEFT = 9% DR. So a difference of 6%.
So lets assume (which I do) That I am using Negation as well.
So PRE enchant I was at: 23% + 30% Negation. = 53% DR.
Your enchant reduced my DR by 6% leaving me with 47% DR left
So 6%/53% = 11% Damage boost
Now this could VERY easily go the other way.
If I have Countless Scars (which I do) I could have another 15% DR added to that 53% = 68% DR.
During Unstoppable I get another MINIMUM of 15% = 83% DR.
So NOW When you lower 83% by 6% it brings me to 77% DR.
NOW your enchant though boosted your damage 3%/20% = 15% DAMAGE BOOST.
However if I end up getting a DC buff. My DR will be OVER 100%. Meaning your enchant does a 0% damage buff if I have anything over 86% DR.
For PVP calculations, I use 55% DR as a solid base number. You wont kill anyone in Unstoppable (unless you spam COS as a TR) and you wont kill anyone in a DC's AS.
So its outside those buffs that matter. Most players have Negation meaning take their DR +30% and thats a good number. I use 50-55% as a solid base as a guestimate for how much DR they really have.
So your enchant would lower that 55% to 49%. 6%/55% = 11% average damage boost in PVP.
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
edited June 2015
So it sounds like we need to stack arp or none at all? And if we do stack, it will only be effective after 80%RI(or more if enemy has more than 80% DR), assuming enemy has 80% ARP resistance.
So it sounds like we need to stack arp or none at all? And if we do stack, it will only be effective after 80%RI(or more if enemy has more than 80% DR), assuming enemy has 80% ARP resistance.
Basically.
I would even say (currently) if your not gonna stack it up to like 100% RI its probably not worth it.
Whats gonna happen is, everyone will swap all their items and builds around. Then it 4 weeks from now GMC will change it to multiplicative which will diminish the need for overstacking it and then itll make some of that investment characters made a moot point since they had to sacrifice ALOT to squeeze out an extra 1k ARP after 10k stacking... So then they will redo the build again since that 1k really only ends up providing an extra 1-2% net ARP after the new multiplicative formula and it would be better for other stats....
So my honest advice. Either take a small break until its solved. Or just pretend for now that it WILL be multiplicative since that is the easiest and most simple/logical solution to the problem.
Or forget ARP altogether but just be prepared to reinvest later.
OK So wait a minute... hold the phone. Armor Penetration resistance (80% from tenacity for most) has NOT been working in pvp AT ALL all this time since mod6 launch?
This doesn't seem right based on what i've seen of ACT logs in pvp.
This means a player with only -40% resist ignored (5k ArP or so) has been cutting through tenacity base DR of 40%. This means a player with -80% resist ignore has been probably been dealing near or fully unmitigated damage to many other players instead (most pvp builds don't stack defense).
OK So wait a minute... hold the phone. Armor Penetration resistance (80% from tenacity for most) has NOT been working in pvp AT ALL all this time since mod6 launch?
This doesn't seem right based on what i've seen of ACT logs in pvp.
A player would only need -40% resist ignored to cut through tenacity DR of 40%.
Correct. ARP resist has NOT been working AT ALL since launch.
You cant cut through tenacity, its on a different layer. Think of it as "after the dust settles" DR.
FYI - when you crit, ignoring arp resistance. The math works like this:
So moot out the ARP/DR thing for now. 40% crit res and 40% tenacity means at MAX EFFECTIVENESS a Crit will be:
1,000 damage * .6 * .6 = 360 = 36% effective.
Then when you add DR and now ARP RES. Where most players have 80% ARP RES and ATLEAST 50% DR meaning chances are you wont break throug their ARP RES. You can multiply THAT # by 50% as well for an 18% effectiveness.
I have a question about this new DR vs ArP system.
We all have a basic DR stat + a PvP DR stat + ArPR stat + Tenacity = Total PvP DR stat which can surpass 80% DR. Right? IF a power which can reduce "DR" (Ray of emfeblement, in example) struck a char with more than 80% DR, this mean that the power will reduce that 80% of DR or it will be reducing from the "over 80%" stat??
The OVER DR stat.
The Tenactiy is "after the dust settles"
So FIRST calculate DR.
Lets say you attack a DC in AS with 130% DR. Who also has 80% aRP RES.
Lets pretend you dont have any ARP. Meaning you cant bypass his ARP RES. SO he has 130% DR. YOu RoE him and reduce his DR by what? 25%?
So he is now at 105% DR. which is above 80% so it basically does NOTHING.
Now if you remove him from AS, now it will actually have an impact
Correct. ARP resist has NOT been working AT ALL since launch.
You cant cut through tenacity, its on a different layer. Think of it as "after the dust settles" DR.
So there is no way to cut through or reduce the 40% damage resistance from tenacity, period?
Now ACT makes sense.
I wonder if piercing damage cuts through the tenacity DR.
And thanks for explaining how crit is trash for bonus damage... Having 50% crit chance and 100% crit severity will give you something like 18%*0.50(proc chance) = 9% overal damage boost.
In many cases, it sounds like lostmauth bonus will give more bonus damage than the bonus damage from critical hits themselves.
Time to take a break...this armor pen changes are too much to work around..
Abuse a bugged wheel? Ye i still remember seldarine arti...no thanks.
And i have no astrals left to jump on my tr again... enjoy june guys
With INT bonus, that would give a max of around 150% resistance ignored.
So this would negate a players non-tenacity DR% up to 70% but they'd still have that 40% tenacity DR.
Most players have non-tenacity DR% much less than 70%.
Sounds like a sweet spot could be around 110-120% resistance ignored (negate 30-40% nontenacity DR, covers most foes). But is it worth stacking all of that ArP at the cost of Crit/Power/Recovery?
Depends.
Patch for live is going. Did you get a chance to test in preview last night?
No, but a few guildies did. They also got up to about 110% RI, said the damage was not that noticable however I questioned their testing.
They did a GF using bull charge on a CW with shield on tab. I dont think they broke shield first meaning that it had an 80% mitigation (so basically the same as attacking a GF IN block) and they said the "difference on a Bull Charge was like 2k".
Dont know the base attack and how much was increased (2k from 15k is alot. 2k from 60k isnt...) however, again, skewed data.
All I know is compared to power stacking (if you can get it high enough) in THEORY ARP should still be better IMO. You will just have ot overstack it to 12k+ and hope for the best.
Maybe we will do some testing today or tomorrow before I invest.
I also noticed the Power/ARP JC rings didnt get a stat boost - so its provides less cumulative stats than its counter part (Hp/regen).
I would LOVE a response from GMC about all of this because if he turns around and makes ARP "multiplicative" (meaning 80% ARp Res will be: Final RI = Current RI * (1-Arp Res)
Or ANOTHER option could be to make ARP RES ONLY affect ARP (not ability scores, feats, boons, etc) But this may provide an advantage to classes that have the ability score for arp, IDK.....
But either way IF he makes these changes, id rather not invest millions of AD and sacrifice ALOT of stats to get my ARP to a level that it does something, because if it changes I will have to go BACK to a previous build....
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
edited June 2015
Looks like they decided not to add in any of the "Classes and Balance" section changes. So at least another week in limbo.
But either way IF he makes these changes, id rather not invest millions of AD and sacrifice ALOT of stats to get my ARP to a level that it does something, because if it changes I will have to go BACK to a previous build....
problem is that for HR - we don't have too much gear to stack it to 120%.
For HR - all arm pen found in burning set makes it 13843.
so if you have 12k = 96%. so 13k ~ 100% + ~12 % from STR + 3% boon = roughly 115%.
So For HR you would have to change entier build not just gear to get to same efficiency as you are now. And we all know that HR have now base low encounter damage. Before we could stack arm pen to pierce throw so that GWF would have 100% effect same as HR would have 100% efffect. Now HR can have ~80% effect while GWF would be 100% due to feet and so on.
Comments
- About 9000 ArP stat (80% resist ignore) counters the 80% ArP resistance from tenacity.
- ArP beyond 80% resist ignore cuts into a foes damage resistance (DR%) from defense/negation enchant/etc.
Ok, simple enough.
Suppose you stack 12,000 ArP stat (about 105% Resistance ignore) and your foe has 80% ArP resist and 30% DR from defense stat.
- Your 105% resist ignore will negate 80% ArPResist and then reduce a foes standard DR% by up to an additional 25% (negates 80% ArPResist and 25% DR).
- Net result is that you will deal 25% more damage to this foe for the 12,000 ArP stat.
Correct?
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Suppose you do not stack ArP stat at all and you have only -40% resist ignore.
You have a Trans terror and attack a foe who has 80% Armor penetration resist and 30% damage resist (from defense stat).
Your foe's DR% is cut from 30% to 18% by the Trans Terror defense debuff.
Trans Terror has reduced their DR by 12% but your ArP is doing nothing.
Are you doing 12% more damage?
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
It seems to go on preview now. Can someone please check if they adjusted it or as usual don't give a fk of what players think?
Right, because math.
10000 dmg hit
7000 after mitigated (30% DR)
extra 2500 dmg with 25% DR mitigation nullified
2500/7000 > 36% more dmg
Likewise:
10000 dmg hit
7000 after mitigation (30% DR)
extra 1200 dmg with Tplague (30% DR debuffed to 18% DR)
1200/7000 > 17% more dmg
So you don't need tons of ArP stat for Tplague or Tterror defense debuff to give you a nice dmg boost.
As long as your foe has defense stacked, these enchants will give you a nice boost by nullifying a portion of their DR% from defense stat.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Can you please provide details of your calculation?
Answers in green.
This premise is wrong though. Terror debuffs their defense only, not total DR.
So my GWF for instance has like 21-23% DR but not all this is from Defense. I have about 6,000 Defense which = 15% DR.
So that 6,000 defense is reduced 40% = 3,600 Defense LEFT = 9% DR. So a difference of 6%.
So lets assume (which I do) That I am using Negation as well.
So PRE enchant I was at: 23% + 30% Negation. = 53% DR.
Your enchant reduced my DR by 6% leaving me with 47% DR left
So 6%/53% = 11% Damage boost
Now this could VERY easily go the other way.
If I have Countless Scars (which I do) I could have another 15% DR added to that 53% = 68% DR.
During Unstoppable I get another MINIMUM of 15% = 83% DR.
So NOW When you lower 83% by 6% it brings me to 77% DR.
NOW your enchant though boosted your damage 3%/20% = 15% DAMAGE BOOST.
However if I end up getting a DC buff. My DR will be OVER 100%. Meaning your enchant does a 0% damage buff if I have anything over 86% DR.
For PVP calculations, I use 55% DR as a solid base number. You wont kill anyone in Unstoppable (unless you spam COS as a TR) and you wont kill anyone in a DC's AS.
So its outside those buffs that matter. Most players have Negation meaning take their DR +30% and thats a good number. I use 50-55% as a solid base as a guestimate for how much DR they really have.
So your enchant would lower that 55% to 49%. 6%/55% = 11% average damage boost in PVP.
Basically.
I would even say (currently) if your not gonna stack it up to like 100% RI its probably not worth it.
Whats gonna happen is, everyone will swap all their items and builds around. Then it 4 weeks from now GMC will change it to multiplicative which will diminish the need for overstacking it and then itll make some of that investment characters made a moot point since they had to sacrifice ALOT to squeeze out an extra 1k ARP after 10k stacking... So then they will redo the build again since that 1k really only ends up providing an extra 1-2% net ARP after the new multiplicative formula and it would be better for other stats....
So my honest advice. Either take a small break until its solved. Or just pretend for now that it WILL be multiplicative since that is the easiest and most simple/logical solution to the problem.
Or forget ARP altogether but just be prepared to reinvest later.
This doesn't seem right based on what i've seen of ACT logs in pvp.
This means a player with only -40% resist ignored (5k ArP or so) has been cutting through tenacity base DR of 40%. This means a player with -80% resist ignore has been probably been dealing near or fully unmitigated damage to many other players instead (most pvp builds don't stack defense).
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Correct. ARP resist has NOT been working AT ALL since launch.
You cant cut through tenacity, its on a different layer. Think of it as "after the dust settles" DR.
FYI - when you crit, ignoring arp resistance. The math works like this:
Crit damage * (1-(DR-MAX(ARP-ARP RES)) * (1-Crit Resistance) * (1-Tenacity Resistance).
So moot out the ARP/DR thing for now. 40% crit res and 40% tenacity means at MAX EFFECTIVENESS a Crit will be:
1,000 damage * .6 * .6 = 360 = 36% effective.
Then when you add DR and now ARP RES. Where most players have 80% ARP RES and ATLEAST 50% DR meaning chances are you wont break throug their ARP RES. You can multiply THAT # by 50% as well for an 18% effectiveness.
The OVER DR stat.
The Tenactiy is "after the dust settles"
So FIRST calculate DR.
Lets say you attack a DC in AS with 130% DR. Who also has 80% aRP RES.
Lets pretend you dont have any ARP. Meaning you cant bypass his ARP RES. SO he has 130% DR. YOu RoE him and reduce his DR by what? 25%?
So he is now at 105% DR. which is above 80% so it basically does NOTHING.
Now if you remove him from AS, now it will actually have an impact
So there is no way to cut through or reduce the 40% damage resistance from tenacity, period?
Now ACT makes sense.
I wonder if piercing damage cuts through the tenacity DR.
And thanks for explaining how crit is trash for bonus damage... Having 50% crit chance and 100% crit severity will give you something like 18%*0.50(proc chance) = 9% overal damage boost.
In many cases, it sounds like lostmauth bonus will give more bonus damage than the bonus damage from critical hits themselves.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
-ASYLUM-
Abuse a bugged wheel? Ye i still remember seldarine arti...no thanks.
And i have no astrals left to jump on my tr again... enjoy june guys
Resistance ignored (Armor penentration gives about 8% RI per 1000 stat).
Here is an SW build for example that stacks up to almost 17,000 ArP stat:
http://i.imgur.com/s2E779x.png
With INT bonus, that would give a max of around 150% resistance ignored.
So this would negate a players non-tenacity DR% up to 70% but they'd still have that 40% tenacity DR.
Most players have non-tenacity DR% much less than 70%.
Sounds like a sweet spot could be around 110-120% resistance ignored (negate 30-40% nontenacity DR, covers most foes). But is it worth stacking all of that ArP at the cost of Crit/Power/Recovery?
Depends.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Patch for live is going. Did you get a chance to test in preview last night?
No, but a few guildies did. They also got up to about 110% RI, said the damage was not that noticable however I questioned their testing.
They did a GF using bull charge on a CW with shield on tab. I dont think they broke shield first meaning that it had an 80% mitigation (so basically the same as attacking a GF IN block) and they said the "difference on a Bull Charge was like 2k".
Dont know the base attack and how much was increased (2k from 15k is alot. 2k from 60k isnt...) however, again, skewed data.
All I know is compared to power stacking (if you can get it high enough) in THEORY ARP should still be better IMO. You will just have ot overstack it to 12k+ and hope for the best.
Maybe we will do some testing today or tomorrow before I invest.
I also noticed the Power/ARP JC rings didnt get a stat boost - so its provides less cumulative stats than its counter part (Hp/regen).
I would LOVE a response from GMC about all of this because if he turns around and makes ARP "multiplicative" (meaning 80% ARp Res will be: Final RI = Current RI * (1-Arp Res)
Or ANOTHER option could be to make ARP RES ONLY affect ARP (not ability scores, feats, boons, etc) But this may provide an advantage to classes that have the ability score for arp, IDK.....
But either way IF he makes these changes, id rather not invest millions of AD and sacrifice ALOT of stats to get my ARP to a level that it does something, because if it changes I will have to go BACK to a previous build....
problem is that for HR - we don't have too much gear to stack it to 120%.
For HR - all arm pen found in burning set makes it 13843.
so if you have 12k = 96%. so 13k ~ 100% + ~12 % from STR + 3% boon = roughly 115%.
So For HR you would have to change entier build not just gear to get to same efficiency as you are now. And we all know that HR have now base low encounter damage. Before we could stack arm pen to pierce throw so that GWF would have 100% effect same as HR would have 100% efffect. Now HR can have ~80% effect while GWF would be 100% due to feet and so on.
looks like copy paste really. I dough they would roll back all class changes.