But the problem is, and most CWs would not like this. I have almost no DPS. In pain giver I do about the same damage the GF does.
The problem with this philosophy is no one is struggling to clear trash in this game. Builds that are built to clear trash are trash builds, imho.
What do you bring to the table during the hardest part of the dungeon, which is the final boss fight?
Look at it this way. All the T1 final bosses are single target fights. Lostmauth? No adds. Fulminorax? No adds. Valindra? Done properly, no adds. So in these fights you're basically asking your team to 4 man the encounter.
Then the T2 bosses. The idea of controlling the adds in eGWD, eToS and eCC is noble but not feasible. In eCC, the adds spawn too far apart to be reasonably grouped and controlled before the run rampant. In eToS, the adds are very fragile, but deadly, so they need to die quickly. And in eGWD, the adds you need to worry about, the Stormcallers, are immune to CC while casting most of their abilities, which they do extremely frequently, and they need to be DPS'd down as quickly as possible. And looking at your skills, it's a stretch for you to keep one mob "perma" CC'd. Which would be fine, except that none of these fights involve CCing a single mob.
And that says nothing about the bosses. The longer they're alive, the more add waves you have to deal with, and the more likely it becomes that someone will catch some bad luck and die. So the slower the die, the more likely it is you'll end up wiping.
For bosses I equip my Greater Vorpal with Eye of the Storm + Storm Spell. The damage goes up a lot.
The problem is that the Opressor Tree has nothing for damage. Thaumaturge has % damage bonus. Renegade has + crit damage bonus.
Opressor got nothing for damage. Opressor damage is like a CW who never spent any point in a paragon feature.
Shatter should be our source of damage with extra 100% weapon damage when using control powers against cc imune adversaries. But there are 2 problems with this.
1) 100% weapon damage means nothing in mod 6.
2) Few powers trigger this effect.
Just to add a point to this conversation. But it is possible to CC in T2. I can keep even lieutenant rank mobs almost perma CC (like Hexers, hulks, big spiders, etc.). The trick is Strong control bonus + fast recharge so you can spam control skills.
That sounds a lot like a control all-in. A compromise, in-between build, still totals to underachieving control in my opinion. Again, the point here is the control resistance of 73 level mobs or dungeon mobs (majority of endgame content). Keep in mind this affects other classes as well, e.g. TR smoke Bomb or Dazing Strike. I just cannot see a TR going all control, just so these two encounters have any significant effect, compromising for a lot of DPS. In short, the way CWs ability to control is now supressed, the entire party is required to contribute in some way to control.
If that particular build works for T1/T2 parties, I guess I'm willing to try and push my gear. Thanks for sharing.
I guess the question now is, can devs push dungeon mobs more? :-) What upsets me the most is the shock you are in for the first time you run a dungeon. The difficulty curve transition from solo PVE to group PVE is not linear, it's hitting a brick wall.
A comment on Orb of Imposition (asuming Rank4) with Glacial Movement (asuming Rank5). The way this works IMHO is you get 20% bonus per Rank of Orb of Imposition, for base Rank value. So:
Base Value + (Base Value * 20%) OR 5% + (5% * 20%) = 6% Total CC bonus per Orb of Imposition Rank.
At rank 4 you achieve 24% total control bonus (increased from 20%). Does that make sense, or has anyone tested the actual buff we get from this feat?
0
kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
That sounds a lot like a control all-in. A compromise, in-between build, still totals to underachieving control in my opinion. Again, the point here is the control resistance of 73 level mobs or dungeon mobs (majority of endgame content). Keep in mind this affects other classes as well, e.g. TR smoke Bomb or Dazing Strike. I just cannot see a TR going all control, just so these two encounters have any significant effect, compromising for a lot of DPS. In short, the way CWs ability to control is now supressed, the entire party is required to contribute in some way to control.
If that particular build works for T1/T2 parties, I guess I'm willing to try and push my gear. Thanks for sharing.
I guess the question now is, can devs push dungeon mobs more? :-) What upsets me the most is the shock you are in for the first time you run a dungeon. The difficulty curve transition from solo PVE to group PVE is not linear, it's hitting a brick wall.
A comment on Orb of Imposition (asuming Rank4) with Glacial Movement (asuming Rank5). The way this works IMHO is you get 20% bonus per Rank of Orb of Imposition, for base Rank value. So:
Base Value + (Base Value * 20%) OR 5% + (5% * 20%) = 6% Total CC bonus per Orb of Imposition Rank.
At rank 4 you achieve 24% total control bonus (increased from 20%). Does that make sense, or has anyone tested the actual buff we get from this feat?
Basically with Glacial Movement and Orb, you should be seeing something like (5%+20%)*4 = 100%. If you look at the other skills that rank up similarly, that's how it should work. Also based on the evolution of buffs & nerfs to it over the last 1+ year, that's how it's supposed to work. But it's seriously bugged (and will probably stay that way, see effect on pvp if fixed), so you get 24-26% total.
I've got +70% control bonus: Mage (25%), Wisp(15%), Boon(10%), Valindra(15%), Wisdom(5%). In a T2 it's just enough (if you're lucky).
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited May 2015
I find it... incredibly depressing... that they'd put in so much stuff to ostensibly buff control powers but then make those powers essentially ineffectual through mob resistance at any time that actually matters.
Goes for Scoundrel TRs, HR rooting, and all the control powers that a good GF *should* be able to use in their play as well as for wizards.
I feel so cheated for putting 3 points in Orb of Imposition now... thanks for linking the other threads.
I'm still not convinced it should total to a 100% CC bonus. I understand the analogy, but should I really expect 400% bonus (20% vs 80%) to a passive class feat from a single paragon feat? It's obviously broken, so that is a mute point.
Entangling Force... don't even want to go there :mad:. I still hate the control resistance I have to face as a controller.
I will test Frontline Surge on my GF, out of curiosity. Can't sacrifice my tanking/buff rotation, but might as well have a laugh.
My control comes from a frost enchantment and spelltwisting and control bonus companions.
Otherwise, my CW is focused on dps.
Frost enchantment allows just enough time (4 sec) to safely bring the adds together (furious immolation) and then put them on ice and use steal time. When steal time wears off, and without icy veins, mob will be slowed from ice and soon to freeze. Shield on tab protects against a hit which may occur while frost enchantment is on cooldown. Optional: If you need to survive more than 1-2 hits, then try the angel of protection which reduces incoming damage by 50% for 10sec after the first hit. Angel of protection also gives +5% damage resistance on all hits. That means total 55% damage reduction during the first 10 sec after the first hit. I believe the 55% is calculated from the damage which makes it through your natural damage resistance and through your magic shield.
For boss fights, consider removing the frost enchantment and control companions and instead, put in damage boosting enchantment and damage boosting companion.
As ironzerg79 said, spec your CW for dps, but (I say) feel free to use control enchantments (frost) and control companions and anything else which can be easily swapped in/out.
I haven't tried frost in T2's, but it's been reported the T2 mobs RESIST it. So you might want to stick to Vorpal/Plague Fire/Terror.
Where are these reports coming from? I always open with tabbed Entangling force, which CC only the main target. The other targets that are pulled are dazed too when I use Tabbed EF. And this is the Frost Enchant effect.
There is a spot in ECC where there is a group of spitting spiders together, about 4 or 5 of them. I remember well this spot because when I use any other enchant, they own me, but if I use my frost enchant everything goes well. Tabbed EF from distance, tele to them and use Icy terrain and they all are frozen waiting to die.
My control comes from a frost enchantment and spelltwisting and control bonus companions.
Otherwise, my CW is focused on dps.
As ironzerg79 said, spec your CW for dps, but (I say) feel free to use control enchantments (frost) and control companions and anything else which can be easily swapped in/out.
+1
Very rare when you have to go full cc. Tos, Gwd boss.
Swap cantankerous mage, Will-o-wisp.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
+1
Very rare when you have to go full cc. Tos, Gwd boss.
Swap cantankerous mage, Will-o-wisp.
Exactly what I do. If the situation warrants it, I have a Perfect PF in my bag, and I'll swap out for the mage and wisp. But that's rare these days.
The more and more I run T2's, the more I realize the fights are so much easier the faster you can burn the adds, versus CCing them. The nice thing about the CC powers is that they'll still provide a momentary interruption to their attacks.
My advice to the Devs is, if you don't want CC to lock down mobs, give the Oppressor tree much more substantial debuffs when targets are hit by a control power. -50% attack speed, -25% damage, -50% movement, +50% longer cast times, etc...
Even if mobs couldn't be full controlled, if an Oppressor was debuffing them to the point that they hit like baby kittens, it would definitely be worth consideration.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited May 2015
Tangentially, Scoundrel TRs would benefit from something along those lines as well. What's *supposed* to make them special is their ability to daze targets, and do extra damage against controlled targets. Which means that when you smack up against the expectation that your primary role as a TR is to DPS large control immune targets, people tend to wonder why you didn't just roll with one of the other paths. And when even the trash laughs at your dazes, well....
Comments
The problem with this philosophy is no one is struggling to clear trash in this game. Builds that are built to clear trash are trash builds, imho.
What do you bring to the table during the hardest part of the dungeon, which is the final boss fight?
Look at it this way. All the T1 final bosses are single target fights. Lostmauth? No adds. Fulminorax? No adds. Valindra? Done properly, no adds. So in these fights you're basically asking your team to 4 man the encounter.
Then the T2 bosses. The idea of controlling the adds in eGWD, eToS and eCC is noble but not feasible. In eCC, the adds spawn too far apart to be reasonably grouped and controlled before the run rampant. In eToS, the adds are very fragile, but deadly, so they need to die quickly. And in eGWD, the adds you need to worry about, the Stormcallers, are immune to CC while casting most of their abilities, which they do extremely frequently, and they need to be DPS'd down as quickly as possible. And looking at your skills, it's a stretch for you to keep one mob "perma" CC'd. Which would be fine, except that none of these fights involve CCing a single mob.
And that says nothing about the bosses. The longer they're alive, the more add waves you have to deal with, and the more likely it becomes that someone will catch some bad luck and die. So the slower the die, the more likely it is you'll end up wiping.
The problem is that the Opressor Tree has nothing for damage. Thaumaturge has % damage bonus. Renegade has + crit damage bonus.
Opressor got nothing for damage. Opressor damage is like a CW who never spent any point in a paragon feature.
Shatter should be our source of damage with extra 100% weapon damage when using control powers against cc imune adversaries. But there are 2 problems with this.
1) 100% weapon damage means nothing in mod 6.
2) Few powers trigger this effect.
Leliana C.W. - Opressor CW
Lelian O.P. - Bulwark Paladin
That sounds a lot like a control all-in. A compromise, in-between build, still totals to underachieving control in my opinion. Again, the point here is the control resistance of 73 level mobs or dungeon mobs (majority of endgame content). Keep in mind this affects other classes as well, e.g. TR smoke Bomb or Dazing Strike. I just cannot see a TR going all control, just so these two encounters have any significant effect, compromising for a lot of DPS. In short, the way CWs ability to control is now supressed, the entire party is required to contribute in some way to control.
If that particular build works for T1/T2 parties, I guess I'm willing to try and push my gear. Thanks for sharing.
I guess the question now is, can devs push dungeon mobs more? :-) What upsets me the most is the shock you are in for the first time you run a dungeon. The difficulty curve transition from solo PVE to group PVE is not linear, it's hitting a brick wall.
A comment on Orb of Imposition (asuming Rank4) with Glacial Movement (asuming Rank5). The way this works IMHO is you get 20% bonus per Rank of Orb of Imposition, for base Rank value. So:
Base Value + (Base Value * 20%) OR 5% + (5% * 20%) = 6% Total CC bonus per Orb of Imposition Rank.
At rank 4 you achieve 24% total control bonus (increased from 20%). Does that make sense, or has anyone tested the actual buff we get from this feat?
Orb is seriously bugged. see: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?831831-Official-Feedback-Thread-Control-Wizard-Cap-Raise/page12
And Abaddon523's post here: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?831831-Official-Feedback-Thread-Control-Wizard-Cap-Raise/page9
Basically with Glacial Movement and Orb, you should be seeing something like (5%+20%)*4 = 100%. If you look at the other skills that rank up similarly, that's how it should work. Also based on the evolution of buffs & nerfs to it over the last 1+ year, that's how it's supposed to work. But it's seriously bugged (and will probably stay that way, see effect on pvp if fixed), so you get 24-26% total.
I've got +70% control bonus: Mage (25%), Wisp(15%), Boon(10%), Valindra(15%), Wisdom(5%). In a T2 it's just enough (if you're lucky).
Goes for Scoundrel TRs, HR rooting, and all the control powers that a good GF *should* be able to use in their play as well as for wizards.
What's the point?
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I'm still not convinced it should total to a 100% CC bonus. I understand the analogy, but should I really expect 400% bonus (20% vs 80%) to a passive class feat from a single paragon feat? It's obviously broken, so that is a mute point.
Entangling Force... don't even want to go there :mad:. I still hate the control resistance I have to face as a controller.
I will test Frontline Surge on my GF, out of curiosity. Can't sacrifice my tanking/buff rotation, but might as well have a laugh.
Otherwise, my CW is focused on dps.
Frost enchantment allows just enough time (4 sec) to safely bring the adds together (furious immolation) and then put them on ice and use steal time. When steal time wears off, and without icy veins, mob will be slowed from ice and soon to freeze. Shield on tab protects against a hit which may occur while frost enchantment is on cooldown. Optional: If you need to survive more than 1-2 hits, then try the angel of protection which reduces incoming damage by 50% for 10sec after the first hit. Angel of protection also gives +5% damage resistance on all hits. That means total 55% damage reduction during the first 10 sec after the first hit. I believe the 55% is calculated from the damage which makes it through your natural damage resistance and through your magic shield.
For boss fights, consider removing the frost enchantment and control companions and instead, put in damage boosting enchantment and damage boosting companion.
As ironzerg79 said, spec your CW for dps, but (I say) feel free to use control enchantments (frost) and control companions and anything else which can be easily swapped in/out.
/10char
Where are these reports coming from? I always open with tabbed Entangling force, which CC only the main target. The other targets that are pulled are dazed too when I use Tabbed EF. And this is the Frost Enchant effect.
There is a spot in ECC where there is a group of spitting spiders together, about 4 or 5 of them. I remember well this spot because when I use any other enchant, they own me, but if I use my frost enchant everything goes well. Tabbed EF from distance, tele to them and use Icy terrain and they all are frozen waiting to die.
Leliana C.W. - Opressor CW
Lelian O.P. - Bulwark Paladin
Very rare when you have to go full cc. Tos, Gwd boss.
Swap cantankerous mage, Will-o-wisp.
Exactly what I do. If the situation warrants it, I have a Perfect PF in my bag, and I'll swap out for the mage and wisp. But that's rare these days.
The more and more I run T2's, the more I realize the fights are so much easier the faster you can burn the adds, versus CCing them. The nice thing about the CC powers is that they'll still provide a momentary interruption to their attacks.
My advice to the Devs is, if you don't want CC to lock down mobs, give the Oppressor tree much more substantial debuffs when targets are hit by a control power. -50% attack speed, -25% damage, -50% movement, +50% longer cast times, etc...
Even if mobs couldn't be full controlled, if an Oppressor was debuffing them to the point that they hit like baby kittens, it would definitely be worth consideration.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia