Level 73 enemies have 90% CC resistance [tested, confirmed]

c1k4ml3kc3

I've done a comparative test in Well of Dragons with an enemy at level 73

I wanted to find out just how resistant or, rather, ineffective the investment in the control actually is. What I've found is outrageous.

I have 15WIS which translates to 5% Control Strength because each point after 10 is calculated as Control Strength.
I have one (1) Cantankerous Mage which gives 15% control Strength.
I have one (1) Necklace of the Loyal Master which gives 10% Control Strength.
I have two (2) Ring of the Loyal Master which gives 2 x 10% Control Strength.

All in all, I have 50% Control Strength without any investment in the Feats/Boons.

I've used Rank 3 Icy Terrain with Rank 3 Ray of Frost

My Initial Freeze duration is 5.0 sec which I've counted several times on a single enemy.

With the items slotted (activated) in their respectful positions, the entirety of the increase I got was 0.5 sec which added to the previous 5.0 sec for a total of 5.5 sec duration of freeze.
My calculation shows that the Control Strength should be 50% of my initial freeze duration minus the resistance of the enemy. So, the enemy has 90% CC resistance because it reduces the 2.5 sec duration to 0.5 sec duration.

The same works for the Entangling Force.
This means that the extra added 10% Control strength on various items with the prefix Loyal Master, as well as the Companions such as Cantankerous Mage and/or Will-O'-Wisp won't do horse <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for you as a Control Wizard with rank 73 enemies.

Sincerely, a very pissed Control(?) Wizard. :mad:

ironzerg79

And guess what the T2 dungeons are filled with...Oh, that's right...Level 73 mobs.

I suspected this was the case. When I went full oppressor vs renegade to test things out, the change in control duration was barely noticeable. And now we know why.

abaddon523

I did some testing of the Loyal Master equipment and found that the control bonus does not get transferred to your character from your augment companion. So that needs to be removed from your calculations. I don't think this is a bug, either. I think only certain stats are allowed to transfer from your companion to you, and control bonus is not one of them.

Also I don't think your calculation method is sound. If an enemy has high CC resist then they reduce the total duration of control, not just the "extra" control strength you get from bonuses. An enemy with 90% control resist would only get frozen for (5*0.1)= 0.5 seconds without any control bonuses on the CW. You can't look at it as reducing the "extra" 2.5 seconds to 0.5. If you go to Icewind Dale and try the Corrupted Bears HE you'll find that using any control spells against them is almost worthless because the durations of freeze and Entangling Force are less than 2 seconds even with and Oppressor build with Orb of Imposition and a bunch of control bonuses.

But you have hit on the real crux of the problem. Enemies with really high CC resist make the "control" aspect of control wizards pointless. Going through a T2 Dungeon attempting to control things is pointless. Enemies can start an attack, get frozen, unfreeze and finish their attack in less than a second. Why even bother?

valencay

You are wrong.

Tested right now with my cw:

Oppressor capstone = 5 sec stun. base duration no modifiers

20 wis = 10% control bonus
VT set = 15% control bonus
control bonus stat = 2%
Cantankerous + wisp = 40% control bonus
Dragon's grip = 10% control bonus
Orb of imposition r4 + glacial movement = 100% control bonus (some say r4 doesn not give bonus but i have not seen any proof)
Off hand passive = 5% control bonus

Total 182% control bonus

shatter duration on drake handler lv 73 = 13 seconds up from 5 second base duration =/= 90% cc resistance

PS: most likely bonus from loyal master does not apply to you if on a ioun stone and you tested with 20% control bonus

abaddon523

valencay wrote: »

Orb of imposition r4 + glacial movement = 100% control bonus (some say r4 doesn not give bonus but i have not seen any proof)

I've personally tested this (with lots of casts of Entangling Force and a stopwatch) and found that Glacial Movement gives a flat 20% control increase to Orb of Imposition. It is not 20% per rank. So 25/30/35/40% control bonus instead of 25/50/75/100%.

abaddon523

Not all level 73 enemies have the same control resistance. Some Lvl 73 trash mobs have none. Some Lvl 73's like Elites have crazy high resistance.

digolift

i dont know if i correct but i noticed that in t2, as mobs gets freeze only a few times, is hardly to maintain a considerable stacks os chill on them. they all go away so fast that overall damage from Chilling Presence has been lowered. sry bad english

ironzerg79

digolift wrote: »

i dont know if i correct but i noticed that in t2, as mobs gets freeze only a few times, is hardly to maintain a considerable stacks os chill on them. they all go away so fast that overall damage from Chilling Presence has been lowered. sry bad english

This is something I've also been thinking about. There's a 2 second CD from when something gets frozen to when it can get chill stacks again.

I'm wondering if DPS would be higher by removing Icy Terrain from the power bar (keeping CoI on tab) so that monsters get chill stacks, but never freeze.

Pondering, pondering.

(but hey, with all these changes in Module 6, it's cool to be thinking again, right?:D)

valencay

the 2 sec CD was introduce after the changes to orb of imposition because every cw could perma cc any mob any number of them (thaums and renegades as well)

c1k4ml3kc3

Don't you think that Bonuses you get for Control are automatically calculated VS Resistances for Control? That doesn't sound logical? Let's make a plausible calculation here with the benefit of a doubt that things are not downright broken altogether.

I think that it's a major flaw that such bonuses do not come from Augment stone (pardon, chicken).
What if, just if, it doesn't show in the description but actually functions? Same like HV set? Furthermore, you're correct - bears are held for 2.5 sec without item set and for 2.7-2.8 with set. Arguably, Bears are twice as resilient as any CC prone mob in Well of Dragons. This means that their CC is 95% of resistance.

I'd like to state that I have a correct value of anything, but there's no plausible counter for Control Bonus/Strength (and at this point I wonder whether those two are one the same thing).

angrymanagement

I respeced to Thaum/15 Opp last night prior to a PUG eCC run.
While CC duration is a joke, I have to say things were constantly freezing (Icy Veins + 5 chills on Sudden Storm + COI tab + IT + CC with artifact chill power). Compared to Renegade it was a lot easier, but the damage drops.
I do play in melee a lot, but you don't necessarily have a choice about that anymore with the CC resist & fast movement speeds.

This was in a 2 TR (one using smoke bomb), 1 SW, 1CW, 1 DC (non ap). I won't say the boss fights were pretty, but it worked for trash, and the first boss just fine.

Also, it certainly is a lot easier to beat the minor HEs in WoD. The major HEs are still beastly no matter what.

c1k4ml3kc3

I've ran all combinations prior to MOD6 and have found out that Icy Veins + Spell Twisting won't last long.

Who's even talking about whether enemies freeze or not? As you state, CC duration is not worth to invest into due to the evident problem of enemies having an immense CC reduction. This affects other spells as well and makes anything but Icy Veins and Storm Spell out of the question.

However, I grew tiresome of constantly tweaking the game and with so many bugs I've decided to finally leave it. You can do well without the invest in Oppressor, heck you'd do an amazing damage with Renegade with 15 feats in Thaum, the way I played a week ago when I've found out how stupid Icy Veins really is in comparison to Chilling Presence.

Best Regards.

angrymanagement

Still a renegade fan & will be switching back, but I would say if I was still in Renegade last night, that group would have never made it to the first boss. I would actually say anyone thats not pulling high CW dps or plays primarily with low item level might want to consider Thaum/15OP over the better dps Renegade option.
I agree CC resist is a joke, but we are trying to make lemonade out of lemons.

Lemonade

a097832846

abaddon523 wrote: »

Also I don't think your calculation method is sound. If an enemy has high CC resist then they reduce the total duration of control, not just the "extra" control strength you get from bonuses. An enemy with 90% control resist would only get frozen for (5*0.1)= 0.5 seconds without any control bonuses on the CW. You can't look at it as reducing the "extra" 2.5 seconds to 0.5. If you go to Icewind Dale and try the Corrupted Bears HE you'll find that using any control spells against them is almost worthless because the durations of freeze and Entangling Force are less than 2 seconds even with and Oppressor build with Orb of Imposition and a bunch of control bonuses.

c1k4ml3kc3 wrote: »

Don't you think that Bonuses you get for Control are automatically calculated VS Resistances for Control? That doesn't sound logical? Let's make a plausible calculation here with the benefit of a doubt that things are not downright broken altogether.

I would think that the calculation would be: Base x (1 + bonus - resistance)

In the OP, assuming that the Loyal Master control bonus does not apply to the player but rather to control powers used by the companion, we're actually looking at a 20% control strength bonus and a 10% mob resistance, no? 5 * (1 + .2 -.1) = 5.5

In Valencay's example I would expect to see 5 * (1 + 1.82 -.1) = 13.6. I don't know if the measurements given were stopwatch exact or approximate. Abaddon claims it should be 1.42 control strength based on testing of OoI, and I am not 100% clear on whether Valencay was actually testing the 10 second base debuff applied by Shatter Strike, or the 5 second stun it causes when consumed/triggered.

TL;DR - Somewhat inconsistent, needs further testing.

valencay

i was taking the times using my phone with a range of 13.2 - 13.8 so given the human error i use 13 sec. also i was timing te shatter proc (stun) that triggers almost instantly. but using entanglinf force the result is still in the range of 13 seconds

two30

a097832846 wrote: »

I would think that the calculation would be: Base x (1 + bonus - resistance)

I suspect the formula is: duration = base duration * (1 + control bonus) / (1 + control resist)
100% control bonus should double the duration of a control.
100% control resist should halve the duration of a control.

onegaki101

two30 wrote: »

I suspect the formula is: duration = base duration * (1 + control bonus) / (1 + control resist)
100% control bonus should double the duration of a control.
100% control resist should halve the duration of a control.

Thanks! That formula makes sense. I am still debating whether to go for full control or not. The problem with control is that there are control immune mobs and the boss is usually immune as well so that stat become useless.

c1k4ml3kc3

DO NOT repeat my terrible mistake to take companions that add Control duration.

This mod is pure DPS.

This topic should be locked unless there's more to add by someone who took enough time. As for the 13 sec freeze duration, I hope that the person will post how Oppressor holds mobs frozen for 13 sec. A small video would suffice if anything, just for posterity reasons.

Then the same done for the bears in Icewind (small ones), again, purely for posterity reasons.

valencay

i mean if you are mad at the game it's fine but stop trolling. i have been playing oppressor for months and as i told you i have 182% control bonus, compare it to your 20% and tell me what you expect to see. i don't need to prove anything, it is like that. you can't achieve that with a renegade/thaum build with 15 points into oppressor and half companion.
as for bears in IWD they are not stunned for 13 sec, never stated that, you were talking about wod, they are stunned for 5 - 6 seconds or smth like that.
I swear you people on this forum love to talk **** about oppressor cause you don't get fancy 1st place on leaderbords but none actually really tried

ironzerg79

No need to get nasty, Valencay.

But to your point, a Renegade can still stack a lot of control bonus if they want. Wisp + Cantankerous Mage is +40%. Dragon Boon is 10% (up to 15%), Valindra's is 15% + 5% for the Crown's control stat. And Abaddon already correct you on Orb, so that's really all I'm missing (plus a few points in Wisdom and the offhand bonus).

So I'm at 70% vs your (adjusted) 122%. The duration of my control spells is 1.7. Yours is 2.22. Or 30% longer durations.

But I'm also putting out at least twice the damage of an Oppression and bring SUBSTANTIAL boosts to the party's DPS as well (~100% CA uptime/+5% crit/Chaos Magic), which could lead to 30-50% more damage by the party.

In other words, that's great that Oppressor is working for you. But you're giving up A LOT for that ultimately small boost to control, and you bonuses are nearly useless against bosses

EDIT: I should also mention that thanks to Spell Twisting, my CC powers cool down substantially faster, so I what I lose in CC duration, I make for in number of CC spells cast.

valencay

it's not 122% abaddon did some tests but i'm keeping track of control bonus effectivness since i start using it more than half a year ago. also you might be at 70 but i will still be at 182%. but you are missing that what makes the control the oppressor has really effective is shatter, as you said mobs in t2 breaks out of freeze almost instantly, the one i controlled don't, i can still chain cc mobs even in t2's.

I reapeat, you guys didn't even tried the build. anyway i'm tired of all this.

ironzerg79

I have. Shatter doesn't last long enough.

It's fine for clearing trash, but no one has trouble clearing trash.

nathyiel

We should define a test protocole for:
1) confirming formula. Is it (1+bonus-resist) or (1+bonus)/(1+resist) ?
2) defining how much resist mob have by type : trash, champion, elite, boss, ...

For pet gear, they are clearly designed for bringing back other pet than augment as invoqued compagnion.

abaddon523

nathyiel wrote: »

We should define a test protocole for:
1) confirming formula. Is it (1+bonus-resist) or (1+bonus)/(1+resist) ?
2) defining how much resist mob have by type : trash, champion, elite, boss, ...

For pet gear, they are clearly designed for bringing back other pet than augment as invoqued compagnion.

It is extremely hard to test this since we do not know how much resist the enemies have. We don't know the formula and we don't know one of the variables in the formula. That makes reconstructing the developers equation difficult.

abaddon523

Another potential equation for the control duration:

Control Time = (Base Duration)*(1 + Control Bonuses)*(1-Control Resistance)

I thought this was how it worked. However, that's not based on much and could very well be wrong.

helpimblindinrl

Anyone notice variation in the control time on the same mob? I was doing ecc earlier and at one point the mobs got frozen went more less straight through it and dropped me but most of the time the same mobs would stay frozen long enough for me to dodge or do something or have someone else intervene. No formula just an observation. Its happened a few time but it could just be lag I guess.

nathyiel

There's a few variable depending of the power control you do : arcane mastery stack, mod frozen in the last few second, another lob that buff it, etc.

charkanramon

According to my tests the best way to control in the module 6 is constantly freeze.

I recommend using Icy Veins(with ice terrain) with skills with short recharging:

Steal time canceled by the teleport and disintegration.

It is risky but the reward is great.

kulturny

Great and much needed thread. I was a happy renegade CW in mod5 with 50-60% bonus to CC. After seeing my output drop drastically in mod6 I re-specced to oppressor and feel very disappointed in the ridiculous control resistance (not the paragon tree) selected mobs (T1, T2, HEs, etc.) currently have. I have not tested this with a stopwatch or experimented in all available zones. But between training dummies, Dread Ring skirmishes, and mod6 dungeons, the control resist or control suppression differences are shocking.

I'm not here to say one build is superior to the other. How dungeons are now requires a controller to stun mobs before they can get a shot off, and a controller to sustain/damage them. While it is a pain in the butt, I agree with ironzerg, we have to start thinking over our abilities again.

We are talking CC and investing into it. With how things are, any AD/Zen spent into this stat is virtually worthless (think splits of a second, in trash fights which have been superficially lenghtened to last about 1 min each), and I think that was the original point. It works fun in low-level PVE, but the problem is that CC bonus returns have been nearly 100% undermined in the endgame. I would very much like to see cryptic figure out how to restore control bonus to a build-base stat.

daniloslv

Just to add a point to this conversation. But it is possible to CC in T2. I can keep even lieutenant rank mobs almost perma CC (like Hexers, hulks, big spiders, etc.). The trick is Strong control bonus + fast recharge so you can spam control skills.

But the problem is, and most CWs would not like this. I have almost no DPS. In pain giver I do about the same damage the GF does.

This is what I have:
Main Opressor tree with Spell twisting from Thaumaturge.
Orb of Imposition + Arcane Presence for passives
Around 5k Recovery
27 int (17% recharge speed increase)
19 points in Wisdom (+9% Control Bonus, +9% Recharge speed increase)
Greater Frost enchant for weapon (this is very important. This Enchant has a very good daze effect).

From my character sheet: My total Recharge speed increase is +70% and my total Action point gain is +25%


4 purple artifacts with control bonus that sums to 1158 control bonus. But the weird thing is that my character sheet displays 1545 control bonus (+9% Control Strength). I have no idea where the extra stats are coming from.

4th rank Orb of imposition
+5% Orb of imposition bonus from Off hand Artifact power
Extra chill stack for Ray of Frost from main hand Artifact weapon power
+15% control Bonus from Valindras set
+15% control Bonus from Will o wisp
+15% control Bonus from Cantankerous Mage

I also run with a Legendary Renegade Evoker with 3 normal Bonding Runestones.
The skills I use are Entangling Force on Tab + Sudden Storm + Steal Time + Icy Terrain.

beatannier

Cantankerous Mage gives +25% Control Bonus on epic.