I don't want to just come in here and defend my class. So this is how you deal with it; Stick any two good-geared player to said TR. This isn't your classic perma so don't be shy to 1vX. He will likely have enough damage to 1-rotation player 1 before losing stealth, then player 2 lock him down during the next 12 seconds.
This was one of the reasons why the stealth reveal was a good addition: It didn't affect PvE, but it made it easier to fight back against a TR. What TRs are currently doing -- standing around very skillfully spamming Cloud of Steel while in stealth, preferably with Lurker's Assault up -- would not be nearly as feasible with the stealth reveal still around. Then they'd be trading shots and risk getting cc-ed or interrupted so they'd waste some of their LA uptime dodging at least. And it wouldn't affect PvE in any way. Maybe the multiprocs affect PvE too, but those need to go regardless.
The problem is, mac, the 2sec reveal is a viable solution against the Saboteuer, but now with stealth-enhancing gone from the amor sets, this reveal mechanic that would balance out Sabos, will in fact destroy the Scoundrels(which are now all but extinct anyways) and Executioners. Even a single throw of CoS, and for Scoundrels and Executioners the stealth goes away within a matter of seconds. I'm not sure if non-TR players have ever noticed this, but there's actually an undocumented mechanic about stealth since mod5 that accelerates natural stealth depletion speed when you either attack, or be attacked.
The prime example would be that Lurker's Assault now doesn't fill your stealth bar if you attack. In prior mods, it used to do so. You could throw a few attacks and then stop, and LA would replenish stealth meter to full. Now, what happens is that the stronger/more often the attack you use from stealth, the faster the stealth depletes, and at a certain point, even if you stop attacking, the depletion speed of stealth acutally steps over the natural replenishment speed of LA and the result is the stealth goes away even when you're under effects of LA. This same thing applies in normal instances as well, so literally, with maybe only 2~3 shots of CoS thrown, the stealth meter is already dropping near zero.
Sabos are Sabos, so they're less effected by this, but other TRs are now actually balanced in terms of stealth, because no matter how well you manage it, there always comes a time when you lose access to both ITC AND SS -- this is very different from how things used to be before mod5, where the semi-perma rotations were almost clockwork perfect, and every off-time from stealth would be perfectly covered by ITC. Believe it or not, the current Scoundrels and Executioners, have now lost that effect. Only Sabos still enjoy the ability to do so, or even do perma.
When the 2-sec reveal hits, the Sabos will be balanced somewhat but still strong... but other TRs... it would be like the final piece of meteorite landing on the last resort of dinosaurs...
And if your not a BIS Cw ....l2 live with it or .....
Ok, and I ask an honest question:
You are saying you need to be a bis cw to deal with a bis tr? Or any tr? In the first yes, of course you need to be bis to counter any bis character. In the second case...there really isn't a second case. A bis cw wipes the floor with a non bis tr.
That means we talk about gear and suddenly it becomes a gear issue and not a TR issue.
When do they ever listen, they ask for our thoughts yet just go ahead an do what ever they feel, as to how this game is, maybe its time they remove all the items that people use such as sigil from other classes, as the dc sigil is way op. As to how tr can do so much damage an just stealth an leave, thats not how tr is suppose to be, go back to the real d&d, an you will see rogue either kills of gets killed, this ability to roll away an constant stealth , for lack of better words is a joke. People talk about the gwf, well fact is its a heavy armor killer and is suppose to be hard to kill not to the point of a tank but close, gf's seem to be one of the only chars i see that is capable of doing what it is intended for, that an dc if the case is where as of mod 6 we are all supposedly to be filling our proper rolls as they have supposedly intended with this mod, to create the so called party type game which d&d is and was. This game is suppose to be D&D not oh plz my char isnt OP, example a tr is to be able to stealth in unlock boxes etc, or stealth in an make a almost perfect attack to pretty much kill its opponent and if it doesn't good luck staying alive, not suppose to be able to pop in an out of stealth like a rabit in heat. A healer (dc) is suppose to be a healer yet you see many have better dps then most player with almost invincibility, but that is not how it is suppose to be, which is where a gwf comes in, as the one who is able to protect an dps as well as a cw or warlock while the gf basically stands in the middle of the mobs takes a pounding an keeps there attention. If you are going to make the game completely different to the solo kill anything game it was an supposedly make it party / group original D&D style then remove items that do not belong to that specific player, make the skills appropriately to the character using them and stop catering to the cry babies. A healer is a healer, a tr is a trap removal expert and assassin which has the chance of killing in one blow from stealth , but fail and could be lights out, never has tr had constant stealth, a gwf is a brawler, simalar to a tank but faster with much higher damage , the gf well he is the toughest of all may take a while but can defeat pretty much anything in his path, the sw an cw are support, high dps that stay back an controll high risk mobs/adds, an once down to the boss play a big part at burning them down, same as the hr, but all three have weekness when it comes to being attacked other then forms of escape or a couple choices in defense skills such as stun or freeze etc. But because this game has had people who have catered to cry babies and not really had a full understanding of what neverwinter ever was or is(Baldaurs Gate) we now have a game that is nothing what d&d is. We have a game in which the characters do not have specific rolls and can change their abilities to be be which ever they choose, , not saying thats all bad, as you do have to level etc, but it is the dev who have chosen to all of a sudden turn this game from a free for all solo who care just make your char into what ever you want, just put out the cash, to a game that now needs specific players to do specific dungeon, and only random dump you in a party when queing with who knows what for players. I said this before you can not take a game in which it has been a free for all solo game with no real connection to group play/solid guild play and turn it completely 100% around into a you need this this and this to do this. There are few guilds on this game that are close to what it should have been in the first place, this is not WOW where people set times to be able to head in to dungeons etc , no lifers who have the ability to live like that, this was a game that was fun, able to be played at your leisure , yes it was to easy but with current changes as it is being shown by the majority and you will soon see become more an more of the newer players stating this is impossible to advance with how everything is random que. It is no more new player friendly as not only will it be near impossible for newer players to get to where long time players are, but the fact that unless you are a elitist play 24/7 or pay huge amounts of money to get to a point where the original player do not just kik you out of party ,which is also something that has to be changed, as being able to just kik people is not how it should be if incorperating a more group style play, in which stronger guild ties/loyalty to a guild to succeed an group with is needed,majority of new player will try for a while an see this game is far to difficult an quit which is already happening, sad to say as we see comments from long standing players saying derogatory things when a person bring up such a comment. If the game is going to last , major changes are needed, a more loyalty to a guild atmosphere to generate proper groups to compete with current content( dungeons) a que that organizes chars not just random three cw's a hr an tr, and something that makes guilds want to become top of the game to compete against each other which would create a guild orientated game and give new players a place to learn and have others to do such activities such as the current dungeons. Some are going to say well our guild does that, and i am sure there are a few, but very few, as a longstanding player, it is rare i ever see players actually in groups with their own guilds, other then to stand around in icw and gank people. Make pvp back to 20 man, but break it up into 5 competing groups and you can only enter if you are in with your guild, level specific not armor specific, so you would have 4 groups of 5 from different guilds competing against each other, make bid basically the same , one difference being you can only enter if your guild has five or more players entering in groups of five. i use to play a game where 4 groups of 50 players would enter a area like bid an fight for the right to control a castle, the battle would last 70 minutes as to rewards leave that up to the dev's as maybe they could actually make it worth it
Anyhow just a few thoughts as to the state of the game, as its is failing whether some wish to believe it or not, as the constant isnt about how much fun this game is anymore, its how many are quitting because of the lack of care put into fixing what is wrong and the difficulty for new players, as like most game its the turn over of new people that keep them alive, old players move on , just as a good friend said yesterday, all my friends have left this game after being here since it started and i don't know what to do anymore as its way t difficult by myself. 24/7ers have no loyalty an stick around only so long before they get bored, and personally speaking i do not care for such as having a life an getting to relax play some game is what this was all about. Food for thought people, game will succeed or die and i see death in its future as it is now.
2 problems should be attended first .
1. Boons/glyphs should deal damage to them when they are stealthed
2. 2nd hit of savage advance should hit them, even if they are in stealth.
and sobek is using hardtargetlock, no one in here was born in a tree.
omg you guys are such f4ggots. just because you cant play your class as well as someone else dosent mean they are hacking. The poor guy, with the WORST internet in the world, had to start recording and uploading videos because of your accusations, and still you dont look at the evidence there that he is in fact not using anything..
omg you guys are such f4ggots. just because you cant play your class as well as someone else dosent mean they are hacking. The poor guy, with the WORST internet in the world, had to start recording and uploading videos because of your accusations, and still you dont look at the evidence there that he is in fact not using anything..
You just gave me an idea for my next character name: "zomgf4ggothaxor!" Thanks for that! :cool:
0
xxbabehoneyxxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15Arc User
edited May 2015
OK people before this thread gets closed, i think for everyone's best we should resolve everything with premades, so you get a real feel of "hacking" and whoever is using "target lock."
OK people before this thread gets closed, i think for everyone's best we should resolve everything with premades, so you get a real feel of "hacking" and whoever is using "target lock."
and thats why you always make sure everyone knows the rules before you premade.
Yes, I understand this concern too. But that's also down to a luxury issue for TRs -- last module, all their feat paragons could be reasonably useful in PvP because the class was so strong at the core. For most classes, this is not the case -- they get maybe one or two different flavors that are reasonably viable.
If the choice is between a class having 1) one option that's grotesquely overpowered and others that are reasonably balanced or 2) one option that's reasonably balanced while the rest are weak, #2 is always the better choice. The ideal would be a third way -- to have multiple balanced options, but that's something that would require better balancing than we've seen so far.
There's always a third option -- targeting the specific strengths of the grotesquely overpowered build, and then implement a direct counterweight which applies to it only. This very thread, and my suggestion would be an embodiment of the 'third option' IMO -- total removal of SO as a whole. Best stealth = easiest self defense + easiest offensive management(auto crit+CA)... but no other special extra damage buff, resulting in moderate~low damage as a whole.
Really, Sabos don't need any extra damage in the form of SO.
If this was Mod 5, I'd agree more with this. Problem is, every class seems to have either a BS mechanic they employ or something broken to exploit. I'm for all of this to be fixed, but I want it all in one patch build. I want it properly tested and only then, sent to live server. None of this horse**** rotation of FOTM OP class. I'm losing the will to continue debating this nonsense. Too many people are unwilling to compromise for balance.
Funny ain't it, thinking of the days we used to suggest so many possible compromises for TR nerfs? Obviously, the way people want nerfs happening, I'm almost convinced they don't really want balance. What they want is revenge, suffering. They've suffered grief from OP classes, so this time, they want to cut all the limbs off and see the former OP classes twist and grovel on the ground. That's what people really want when they talk about nerfs.
I know I feel that way when in debate with the hypocrites who used to bash "permadaze", now defending their own "permadaze+root." Maybe this is why the GWFs players were also so hellbent in destroying TRs in mod5?
The term "Hypocrite" suits most of people here they open a thread to divert the attention away from their broken class funny how a weak SO can be used as a meat shield, I dont admire this cheap strategy its like Floyd Mayweather big guy using hit and run strategy against smaller opponent Manny Pacquiao that is just how it works here that is just how shameless and thick face people are here.
2 problems should be attended first .
1. Boons/glyphs should deal damage to them when they are stealthed
2. 2nd hit of savage advance should hit them, even if they are in stealth.
and sobek is using hardtargetlock, no one in here was born in a tree.
probably the reason he switched to pally, because all you need is 1 button, and if you miss your daily then just hold shift down until you have another daily
The term "Hypocrite" suits most of people here they open a thread to divert the attention away from their broken class funny how a weak SO can be used as a meat shield, I dont admire this cheap strategy its like Floyd Mayweather big guy using hit and run strategy against smaller opponent Manny Pacquiao that is just how it works here that is just how shameless and thick face people are here.
k9, people are complaining because MI/Sabos using SO makes them the TR with the strongest defenses that almost never come down, and yet still having the most powerful at-will strikes of all TRs at the same time.
In case of others, like us Scoundrels or Execs, our offense is generally so weak that our at-wills don't even scratch anyone nowadays, thus, we have to use offensive encounters. To hit with these offensive encounters we must approach our target and take the risk of getting close to blow away our stealth cover.
Sabos, OTOH, can slot all defensive/special utilities, never get close within 30 feet of your target, and still score higher DPS than the rest of us using offensive encounters. Sabos = higher DPS, easier attack, easier defense, low risk. Other TRs = low DPS, difficult attack, difficult defense, high risk.
Using your own analogy, Sabos using SO is like Mayweather circling around and running away from Pacman all day long, except the jabs he throws half-heartedly, for some inexplicable reason, hits like Tyson's hooks and uppercuts. That's what SO does.
Using your own analogy, Sabos using SO is like Mayweather circling around and running away from Pacman all day long, except the jabs he throws half-heartedly, for some inexplicable reason, hits like Tyson's hooks and uppercuts. That's what SO does.
Very astute being Mayweather is a total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> beating up on a hurt guy (gimp class) or, you know, a woman because he does that. Again, total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
I'm not concerned about games with "good-geared" and "bad-geared" players, but games where everyone is best in slot or very close to it. And more importantly, games with people who are numerate enough that you will lose if you have to 1vX a single player for a while, unless you also bring a player capable of 1vXing thanks to equally broken class mechanics (such as your very own TR, or an OP).
So no, making it mandatory to gang up on someone just showcases why a fix is necessary, and urgent.
By the same token, how should you clear a Faithful DC, a tank palladin or GF camping your home node? Granted they may have less DPS than a backcapping TR, but if your reasoning proves true, that 1vX out of strategy implies a broken class, then every other player who can hold multiple opponents for any length of time is cause for concern.
OK people before this thread gets closed, i think for everyone's best we should resolve everything with premades, so you get a real feel of "hacking" and whoever is using "target lock."
you guys are talking about +hardtargetlock 1 right? That is a console command and not a hack, you can bind it to any keys and +hardtargetlock 0 to release BUT it's such a crappy tool. It locks your camera rotation around the target, preventing you to dodge or move properly. Imagine fighting with a rope tied to your feet, and the other end tied to your target. Even I wouldn't use it. It gives a little ease in targeting and trades a lot of mobility. If you're using hardtargetlock and think you're cool, just stop, you're doing yourself a disservice.
By the same token, how should you clear a Faithful DC, a tank palladin or GF camping your home node? Granted they may have less DPS than a backcapping TR, but if your reasoning proves true, that 1vX out of strategy implies a broken class, then every other player who can hold multiple opponents for any length of time is cause for concern.
It's that point where the concept of "counter class" comes in -- like the suggestions I've been making about how the SW should be given powers/effects that match their concept, such as active debuffs, dispels that cancel out major defense buffs and/or heals that the DC deals. So the SW will be weak and frail just as they are, but ironically become the best option to counter DCs at the same time.
Other choices can effect the outcome as well, such as diversifying resistances/defenses/deflect according to damage type, instead of just settling with all sorts of damages that are categorized just for the gimmick... like maybe GFs could have very high resistance to physical but mediocre resistance to magic damage.. .maybe the Paladin could have higher resistance to magic but lower physical than than a GF... maybe the TR could deflect physical attacks better than magical ones... etc etc..
IMO making the equations of combat into a more complex web, makes it easier to diversify, specialize, and as a result find active counters to what seems to be OP.
That's a better argument. From experience, my counter class is a Faithful DC ... but then some say Astral Shield is broken .. anyway its a good counter. Astral Shield consumes stacks of Empowered to shield for X% of the DC hp. I think it shields for SO because the buff directly soaks up damage instead of mitigate it.
PS: With Shield on, I can't one-rotation a DC, and the overhealing from Gift of Faith just screws me over so I just leave the DC alone.
Well I don't like it. Maybe it's a preference thing, and it works nicely for you and others. I have tried it and can target better without it.
..it's actually called "padlock", and a working concept appeared in flight sims during the late '90s, way before the arrival of modern MMOs. People who've played flight sims would usually adapt to it easier than most.
IMO, any kind of auto-target lock -- "padlocking" -- is a problem in that not only it tracks through stealth in some cases, but more realistically, it makes the concept of LOS useless. You see a big tank trying to stand in between you and his friend. When manual targeting, this presents problems for you, especially if the tank adjusts his position well according to your relative position. With padlock, or hardlock, no such thing if you successfully target him even for once.
Yeah, it's comfy, but it's also lame. IMO targeting related issues are also a matter of player skill, being able to stay on target, bothering other guy's LOS to protect your own guys... forcing a chaotic melee slugfest to throw off aim... these are all vital PvP skills which makes difference by making use of quick thinking and smart reaction.
Any kind of targeting assist should be completely disabled in PvP.
I see what you mean now. I guess I am so used to manual targeting that any assist such as this feels clunky to me. But since we're mentioning hardtargetlock, let's also drop basic target lock with Left Ctrl on the table. It does pretty much the same, but to less efficiency.
Comments
~ erased text ~
I don't want to just come in here and defend my class. So this is how you deal with it; Stick any two good-geared player to said TR. This isn't your classic perma so don't be shy to 1vX. He will likely have enough damage to 1-rotation player 1 before losing stealth, then player 2 lock him down during the next 12 seconds.
The problem is, mac, the 2sec reveal is a viable solution against the Saboteuer, but now with stealth-enhancing gone from the amor sets, this reveal mechanic that would balance out Sabos, will in fact destroy the Scoundrels(which are now all but extinct anyways) and Executioners. Even a single throw of CoS, and for Scoundrels and Executioners the stealth goes away within a matter of seconds. I'm not sure if non-TR players have ever noticed this, but there's actually an undocumented mechanic about stealth since mod5 that accelerates natural stealth depletion speed when you either attack, or be attacked.
The prime example would be that Lurker's Assault now doesn't fill your stealth bar if you attack. In prior mods, it used to do so. You could throw a few attacks and then stop, and LA would replenish stealth meter to full. Now, what happens is that the stronger/more often the attack you use from stealth, the faster the stealth depletes, and at a certain point, even if you stop attacking, the depletion speed of stealth acutally steps over the natural replenishment speed of LA and the result is the stealth goes away even when you're under effects of LA. This same thing applies in normal instances as well, so literally, with maybe only 2~3 shots of CoS thrown, the stealth meter is already dropping near zero.
Sabos are Sabos, so they're less effected by this, but other TRs are now actually balanced in terms of stealth, because no matter how well you manage it, there always comes a time when you lose access to both ITC AND SS -- this is very different from how things used to be before mod5, where the semi-perma rotations were almost clockwork perfect, and every off-time from stealth would be perfectly covered by ITC. Believe it or not, the current Scoundrels and Executioners, have now lost that effect. Only Sabos still enjoy the ability to do so, or even do perma.
When the 2-sec reveal hits, the Sabos will be balanced somewhat but still strong... but other TRs... it would be like the final piece of meteorite landing on the last resort of dinosaurs...
We have the videos and his POV. So please post the time when he's using Targetlock.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
Ok, and I ask an honest question:
You are saying you need to be a bis cw to deal with a bis tr? Or any tr? In the first yes, of course you need to be bis to counter any bis character. In the second case...there really isn't a second case. A bis cw wipes the floor with a non bis tr.
That means we talk about gear and suddenly it becomes a gear issue and not a TR issue.
Paragraph breaks please.
omg you guys are such f4ggots. just because you cant play your class as well as someone else dosent mean they are hacking. The poor guy, with the WORST internet in the world, had to start recording and uploading videos because of your accusations, and still you dont look at the evidence there that he is in fact not using anything..
You just gave me an idea for my next character name: "zomgf4ggothaxor!" Thanks for that! :cool:
and thats why you always make sure everyone knows the rules before you premade.
There's always a third option -- targeting the specific strengths of the grotesquely overpowered build, and then implement a direct counterweight which applies to it only. This very thread, and my suggestion would be an embodiment of the 'third option' IMO -- total removal of SO as a whole. Best stealth = easiest self defense + easiest offensive management(auto crit+CA)... but no other special extra damage buff, resulting in moderate~low damage as a whole.
Really, Sabos don't need any extra damage in the form of SO.
Funny ain't it, thinking of the days we used to suggest so many possible compromises for TR nerfs? Obviously, the way people want nerfs happening, I'm almost convinced they don't really want balance. What they want is revenge, suffering. They've suffered grief from OP classes, so this time, they want to cut all the limbs off and see the former OP classes twist and grovel on the ground. That's what people really want when they talk about nerfs.
I know I feel that way when in debate with the hypocrites who used to bash "permadaze", now defending their own "permadaze+root." Maybe this is why the GWFs players were also so hellbent in destroying TRs in mod5?
And the vicious cycle continues.. LOL
only gwf ive seen using hard target lock =
http://www.twitch.tv/tolkienbuff1/c/6273369
Mabey you were born in a tree?
well, atleast he finally can land his encounters.
probably the reason he switched to pally, because all you need is 1 button, and if you miss your daily then just hold shift down until you have another daily
k9, people are complaining because MI/Sabos using SO makes them the TR with the strongest defenses that almost never come down, and yet still having the most powerful at-will strikes of all TRs at the same time.
In case of others, like us Scoundrels or Execs, our offense is generally so weak that our at-wills don't even scratch anyone nowadays, thus, we have to use offensive encounters. To hit with these offensive encounters we must approach our target and take the risk of getting close to blow away our stealth cover.
Sabos, OTOH, can slot all defensive/special utilities, never get close within 30 feet of your target, and still score higher DPS than the rest of us using offensive encounters. Sabos = higher DPS, easier attack, easier defense, low risk. Other TRs = low DPS, difficult attack, difficult defense, high risk.
Using your own analogy, Sabos using SO is like Mayweather circling around and running away from Pacman all day long, except the jabs he throws half-heartedly, for some inexplicable reason, hits like Tyson's hooks and uppercuts. That's what SO does.
By the same token, how should you clear a Faithful DC, a tank palladin or GF camping your home node? Granted they may have less DPS than a backcapping TR, but if your reasoning proves true, that 1vX out of strategy implies a broken class, then every other player who can hold multiple opponents for any length of time is cause for concern.
you guys are talking about +hardtargetlock 1 right? That is a console command and not a hack, you can bind it to any keys and +hardtargetlock 0 to release BUT it's such a crappy tool. It locks your camera rotation around the target, preventing you to dodge or move properly. Imagine fighting with a rope tied to your feet, and the other end tied to your target. Even I wouldn't use it. It gives a little ease in targeting and trades a lot of mobility. If you're using hardtargetlock and think you're cool, just stop, you're doing yourself a disservice.
It's that point where the concept of "counter class" comes in -- like the suggestions I've been making about how the SW should be given powers/effects that match their concept, such as active debuffs, dispels that cancel out major defense buffs and/or heals that the DC deals. So the SW will be weak and frail just as they are, but ironically become the best option to counter DCs at the same time.
Other choices can effect the outcome as well, such as diversifying resistances/defenses/deflect according to damage type, instead of just settling with all sorts of damages that are categorized just for the gimmick... like maybe GFs could have very high resistance to physical but mediocre resistance to magic damage.. .maybe the Paladin could have higher resistance to magic but lower physical than than a GF... maybe the TR could deflect physical attacks better than magical ones... etc etc..
IMO making the equations of combat into a more complex web, makes it easier to diversify, specialize, and as a result find active counters to what seems to be OP.
Well I don't like it. Maybe it's a preference thing, and it works nicely for you and others. I have tried it and can target better without it.
That's a better argument. From experience, my counter class is a Faithful DC ... but then some say Astral Shield is broken .. anyway its a good counter. Astral Shield consumes stacks of Empowered to shield for X% of the DC hp. I think it shields for SO because the buff directly soaks up damage instead of mitigate it.
PS: With Shield on, I can't one-rotation a DC, and the overhealing from Gift of Faith just screws me over so I just leave the DC alone.
..it's actually called "padlock", and a working concept appeared in flight sims during the late '90s, way before the arrival of modern MMOs. People who've played flight sims would usually adapt to it easier than most.
IMO, any kind of auto-target lock -- "padlocking" -- is a problem in that not only it tracks through stealth in some cases, but more realistically, it makes the concept of LOS useless. You see a big tank trying to stand in between you and his friend. When manual targeting, this presents problems for you, especially if the tank adjusts his position well according to your relative position. With padlock, or hardlock, no such thing if you successfully target him even for once.
Yeah, it's comfy, but it's also lame. IMO targeting related issues are also a matter of player skill, being able to stay on target, bothering other guy's LOS to protect your own guys... forcing a chaotic melee slugfest to throw off aim... these are all vital PvP skills which makes difference by making use of quick thinking and smart reaction.
Any kind of targeting assist should be completely disabled in PvP.
I see what you mean now. I guess I am so used to manual targeting that any assist such as this feels clunky to me. But since we're mentioning hardtargetlock, let's also drop basic target lock with Left Ctrl on the table. It does pretty much the same, but to less efficiency.