I prefer fighting TRs than CW, sticking in group solves rogue attacks but CW will melt you from afar long range broken class some even face my melee team and killed DC in fron of us.
Either you or our DC sucked then, it is extremely hard for a equally geared cw to outdps the healing a dc do... And yeah attacking a dc with people around it, is a quick way to die!
Well, in that case, someone who hits 10K or higher, would love to see you post some screenshots similar to mine w/ stats so we can compare. Again, blindly complaining and not proving data, jumping the bandwagon for nerf etc, etc.. should just stop. Half of the time, the people that do whine do so loudly to keep attention from their own OP powers.
Its not that the Shadowy Opp ITSELF hits for 10k+ its the TOTAL damage dealt by just 1 COS dagger that is hitting north of 10k and in some cases even 20k.
its the synergy of 100% crit, ELOL set bonus, Shadowy Opp + Lurkers that is allowing it do deal stupid damage.
All that needs to happen is for it just to NOT be piercing damage anymore and itll be fine. I mean watch him kill Tyrion, hes even IN unstoppable with a trans negation and it just bypasses it all.
Thats just a dumb mechanic in general. Piercing damage that is.
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
Yes, let's keep using these highly BiS guys as benchmarks for these nerf threads. Also, these BiS/R12 guys represent the majority apparently. :rolleyes:
Its not that the Shadowy Opp ITSELF hits for 10k+ its the TOTAL damage dealt by just 1 COS dagger that is hitting north of 10k and in some cases even 20k.
its the synergy of 100% crit, ELOL set bonus, Shadowy Opp + Lurkers that is allowing it do deal stupid damage.
All that needs to happen is for it just to NOT be piercing damage anymore and itll be fine. I mean watch him kill Tyrion, hes even IN unstoppable with a trans negation and it just bypasses it all.
Thats just a dumb mechanic in general. Piercing damage that is.
Now down to business, can we agree then that Shadowy itself does not hit that hard as many make it seem so. It's done, stick a fork in it.
There's a problem with your statement. You assume that every TR have the full set of Lostmouth. Next, you assume all TRs uses lurker. For one, I myself and the TRs I have met in PVP, in the last few mods don't use lurker. Yes, I have not met one nor seen one until I watched that video. The majority of TRs use BB and SE. So you are saying let's nerf this power because of the interaction of powers that most people don't use or perhaps with items that is available to all players regardless of class? Dude, come on. The topic is that Shadowy itself hit so hard but again and again, the myth is dispelled. Let's look at the actual encounter being debated not add all these outside factors that not everyone across the board have.
Can you post your stats like I have? I'd like to see what you got and we can figure out how it hit that hard. It could be because you don't have enough tenacity. I would be interested on how geared the player that was hitting you as well. But when it comes to equally geared, that will never get that close by itself. I know because I log myself against others.
For instance, this is a log of my last 3 PVP just finished 10 mins ago.
Makes me wonder if you were debuffed. I am fighting normally away from everyone so no debuffs and straight 1v1 majority of the time. Provide an ACT log or so, would love to see the consistencies of those hits.
Can you post your stats like I have? I'd like to see what you got and we can figure out how it hit that hard. It could be because you don't have enough tenacity.
Yes, let's keep using these highly BiS guys as benchmarks for these nerf threads. Also, these BiS/R12 guys represent the majority apparently. :rolleyes:
So the fact that he attacked similar geared opponents doesn't count?
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
I thought someone arguing about this stuff would actually at least know that SE and TR piercing damage ignore tenacity along with all the other DR sources.
If by any chance you're getting hit for big numbers it's related to one or all of the following:
- various debuffs.
- temporar buffs from arftifacts or supports.
- some broken interaction with set bonuses or enchants.
Several things to mention..
Your gear is very low. Also a Vorpal can really help since TR's always crits in Stealth (and not to forget the other benefits of being in stealth with several feats). A dummy is PvE so most of your attacks do the full 100% dps while in PvP it ignores Tenacity (I personally think that Piercing Damage shouldn't ignore that, especially if you count the buff Tenacity have since mod 6).
Pure that is already very deadly and you don't have to be some 4k IL TR.. if you combine it with Lostmauth set yeah than a TR is OP in PvP.
Weapon Damage shouldn't be buffed like crazy and shouldn't crit (just like ae. Plague Fire doesn't make any Crit DoT's). This makes me think about Deep Gash back in mod 2. And Piercing Damage shouldn't be in PvP except if it doesn't ignore Tenacity cause it makes too much of a difference which is plain unfair to the other DPS classes that don't have Piercing Damage and it's not like TR's really need this to perform.
Your gear is very low. Also a Vorpal can really help since TR's always crits in Stealth (and not to forget the other benefits of being in stealth with several feats). A dummy is PvE so most of your attacks do the full 100% dps while in PvP it ignores Tenacity (I personally think that Piercing Damage shouldn't ignore that, especially if you count the buff Tenacity have since mod 6).
Pure that is already very deadly and you don't have to be some 4k IL TR.. if you combine it with Lostmauth set yeah than a TR is OP in PvP.
Weapon Damage shouldn't be buffed like crazy and shouldn't crit (just like ae. Plague Fire doesn't make any Crit DoT's). This makes me think about Deep Gash back in mod 2. And Piercing Damage shouldn't be in PvP except if it doesn't ignore Tenacity cause it makes too much of a difference which is plain unfair to the other DPS classes that don't have Piercing Damage and it's not like TR's really need this to perform.
I will respond to your post because unlike others you've put some arguments. I dont think my gear is that low. It's average T1 gear (full pvp set with some radiant 5-6) and both arti weapons. I know that Vorpal would boost my dmg, but atm cant afford one, because no luck with drops that i could sell for tons of AD.
My point was that main reason of unbalanced pvp in NWO is EXPENSIVE (often bugged) gear. There's also plenty of people who run with much worse gear in lvl70 pvp. If you will try to balance dmg of specific abilities only for BIS players it will create even bigger gap between pvp community and discourage even more people from pvp.
I thought someone arguing about this stuff would actually at least know that SE and TR piercing damage ignore tenacity along with all the other DR sources.
Yes, I know that but he shows me a screencap with no consistencies, and I showed you logs after logs in a very consistent manner. It makes me wonder if something was bugged that's allowing that interaction or any other factors. Explain to me how everyone feels it hits that hard and we know it's not true in all cases because I have provided you proof after proof. Now before someone says I have bad gear, here is my gear. I have P.VORP if you are wondering.
I am done after this post. I tried and tried to provide data but everyone just want to gripe. Until I hit 10K on shadowy, to me it does not hit that hard esp with 150K+ HPs out there. Don't make a decision based on illusion but look at the data. If I was bull****ting you, why couldn't I even reach that high, even with guys severely lowered gear than mine.
You know that Shadowy Opportunity's damage is based on Weapon's damage, right?? this means, that your 2k damage will increase exponentially when you rise your main hand artifact weapon into blue, purple and, finally, orange... And think about this: if right now, with your green main hand, you can deal 2k damage per Shadowy proc, what do you think will happend when your main hand gets higher levels and stats?
I know it, but upgrading MH from green to blue gives only ~33? weapon dmg. If you look at the dmg values on the movie and even boost them by 100% (from whatever gear) you wont get 10k crits, unless there are some strong buffs or debuffs involved.
I thought someone arguing about this stuff would actually at least know that SE and TR piercing damage ignore tenacity along with all the other DR sources.
Yeah... When he said "it could be because you dont have enough tenacity" I almost spat out my drink all over my monitor...
Piercing shouldnt be in PVP PERIOD.
BTW you HAVE to balance around BIS levels because its otherwise nearly impossible NOT to do so.
How will you know if a feat is broken or imbalanced at "lower tier" pvp? The margin of difference is negligible. Its like testing lifesteal at lower %s and with lower damage and saying "oh its fine on my 2,500 item level GWF, therefore must be balanced" How are you even determining "Fine" How do you even know if its 10% too good or 10% too weak.
Its ONLY when you take things out to their "extremes" that you can see the imbalance. Also as someone pointed out the CS video is ALSO against other BIS players.
I mean it makes no sense, its almost like saying "Negation isnt OP, I have a lesser and it doesnt make me ultra tanky".... "Why are you using BIS Trans players as the example, you cant balance around that blah blah".. But guess what, negation IS OP lol!
There are alot of things that need to be balanced and its only when you take them to the extremes that you see it. Like this lifesteal proc in GG for instance:
I know it, but upgrading MH from green to blue gives only ~33? weapon dmg. If you look at the dmg values on the movie and even boost them by 100% (from whatever gear) you wont get 10k crits, unless there are some strong buffs or debuffs involved.
Not how it works. ALot of damage bonuses are multiplicative. As there has already been proof that it hits for over 10k.
Either way (for me) the bottom line is a done deal when you watch that CS video. You see the TR does nothing but COS Spam and it wipes out a BIS GWF with 1/2 HP in 2 seconds and nearly kills another BIS GF with just a few daggers AFTER Lurkers is used.
Its the combination of everything that is ******ed. Lurkers allows you to stay stealthed, spam COS and each dagger is NETTING 10-20k damage. The big issue with Shadowy Opp is its piercing damage.
Thats ALL you really need to fix is make it so it doesnt bypass tenacity/DR and then its fine. Heck even buff it if you want but it should NOT bypass DR.
Not how it works. ALot of damage bonuses are multiplicative. As there has already been proof that it hits for over 10k.
Either way (for me) the bottom line is a done deal when you watch that CS video. You see the TR does nothing but COS Spam and it wipes out a BIS GWF with 1/2 HP in 2 seconds and nearly kills another BIS GF with just a few daggers AFTER Lurkers is used.
Its the combination of everything that is ******ed. Lurkers allows you to stay stealthed, spam COS and each dagger is NETTING 10-20k damage. The big issue with Shadowy Opp is its piercing damage.
Thats ALL you really need to fix is make it so it doesnt bypass tenacity/DR and then its fine. Heck even buff it if you want but it should NOT bypass DR.
I watched whole Video and despite not knowing the gear difference between both teams i can easily claim that you exaggerate. Try to look at his fights from a different point of view. He's playing assassin class, so he should be able to kill his enemies relatively quickly. Then take a look how long it takes him on average to kill one enemy. Look how quickly he dies when he make one little mistake. After all he got only half of the kills of CW.
I dont see much unbalance in this video. Imo fights on average lasted long enough to make it interesting or even boring at some point (mostly due to healers survivality). The only thing which i personally find bad is that so much of TR dmg comes from ranged at will attacks, and it's not because of SO proc, but because most TR encounters are very underpowered dmg wise.
It's also important to note that both teams had TR, yet match was one sided. Maybe because some classes are underperforming in 5v5, maybe because of gear gap or maybe because of difference in cooperation. MMO are not about 1vs1 and you shouldn't expect Devs to balance around such model.
Im not saying that TR doesnt need changes, because i would like to see more dps coming from encounters rather than at will attacks, but i dont know how our Devs perceive TR role.
Piercing damage was one of the stupidest things this game has ever introduced. It does nothing but create imbalance, and an impossibility to actually balance.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
On this sense, and using that "logic", you are wrong: a Assassin should NEVER be able to kill a TANK due assassin is based on "burst damage" and then, be an easy kill if they failed to kill their targe. Tanks are meant to resist that burst damage. On this game, the "assassin" class can kill all other classes with ease.
I disagree with such point of view. Tanks should be able to life longer than other classes while providing some buffs, debuffs and CC via auras and encounters. I think they're, seen some stacked with 150k hp+.
Imo assassins should be able to kill anything they want when given enough amount of time. This is imo fair in situations where tanks can 1-3 shot assassin (Paly's judgement) or GW insane burst + CC combo.
The only burst encounter which assassin have atm comes from 20s LB, that's why people switch to throwing at will. Even CW have more burst from encounters than assassin, and at much lower cd.
Maybe Devs could take tanks dmg away from pvp and in the same time boost their survivality to be unkillable for assassins, but imo it would make game play a lot more boring and even lead to more unbalance in specific situations. Whenever those 2 classes would meet each other near the flag they would've to afk since nobody would be able to kill each other no matter how much time they would attack.
I watched whole Video and despite not knowing the gear difference between both teams i can easily claim that you exaggerate. Try to look at his fights from a different point of view. He's playing assassin class, so he should be able to kill his enemies relatively quickly. Then take a look how long it takes him on average to kill one enemy. Look how quickly he dies when he make one little mistake. After all he got only half of the kills of CW.
Gear is negligeble in the fight. Both players are ~ BIS to the point gear makes no difference. In fact the TR is actually probably LESS item level since he is using lvl 60 PVP armor BECAUSE of the pvp set bonus.
I agree the assasin class should be able to kill quickly but then be VERY easy to also kill himself. This is the dichotomy that TR does NOT face in NW though because you can ITC, Shadow Strike and stealth run away. Ontop of that, the Assasin is or should only be able to easily kill when he has "stealth/surprise" on his side. In this game stealth is used as a defensive tool, NOT a utility tool though. You stealth so you cannot get hit, NOT stealth so you can "set your self up for a big attack". This is a BIG difference.
BTW - he dies quickly because he has like 60k HP because he decided to not use the lvl 70 armor so he could deal more damage. What I have an issue with ISNT the fact that he can do good damage its the fact that certain classes cannot do ANYTHING to avoid the SO procs (like GWF). Now if he attacks a CW or GF for instance, they both have DR that actually withstands against Piercing damage. Its really the Piercing that is the issue. Not the damage itself.
I dont see much unbalance in this video. Imo fights on average lasted long enough to make it interesting or even boring at some point (mostly due to healers survivality). The only thing which i personally find bad is that so much of TR dmg comes from ranged at will attacks, and it's not because of SO proc, but because most TR encounters are very underpowered dmg wise.
The imbalance is as I said above. Certain classes have zero means of fighting a player like this. TRs should be forced to choose between damage, survivability, utility. If you want perma stealth, you should lack damage. Issue there is the perma path gets SO - which seems just SILLY to me. They need to just make it not piercing.
It's also important to note that both teams had TR, yet match was one sided. Maybe because some classes are underperforming in 5v5, maybe because of gear gap or maybe because of difference in cooperation. MMO are not about 1vs1 and you shouldn't expect Devs to balance around such model.
Doesnt really matter, thats not what the video is to point out and FYI - a game like this "one sided" is usually won and lost by this margin because of ONE node not the entire field or team. If you have 1 node on lockdown, it alleviates pressure at mid, I wont even get into it. If you dont know, you dont know. This is why "TR" has always bee the best "backcapper" because they can kill anyone 1v1 and live the longest hands down. Why should they be able to do both so well? Seems illogical to me. Either they should kill quickly and be squishy like an assassin or they should love a long time and be versatile but have next to no damage.
Im not saying that TR doesnt need changes, because i would like to see more dps coming from encounters rather than at will attacks, but i dont know how our Devs perceive TR role.
I agree here. This is a big part of the issue. They hand the TR all the tools for free (like 100% crit in stealth so they dont have to stack it, piercing damage on feats and ARP on feats so they dont have to stack ARP) The fact that they can stealth hide SO well making it so you dont even need HP! I mean what DOES a TR need to stack? Basically Power and Recovery thats it. That shows you how bad the design is and why its stupid...
The SOLUTION to ALL of this though is to JUST make Shadowy Opp NON-Piercing. Its really that simple. If you want to damage go Exec. If you want to perma, youll deal little damage because you cant rely on SO to do most of the damage for you now.
Gear is negligeble in the fight. Both players are ~ BIS to the point gear makes no difference. In fact the TR is actually probably LESS item level since he is using lvl 60 PVP armor BECAUSE of the pvp set bonus.
I agree the assasin class should be able to kill quickly but then be VERY easy to also kill himself. This is the dichotomy that TR does NOT face in NW though because you can ITC, Shadow Strike and stealth run away. Ontop of that, the Assasin is or should only be able to easily kill when he has "stealth/surprise" on his side. In this game stealth is used as a defensive tool, NOT a utility tool though. You stealth so you cannot get hit, NOT stealth so you can "set your self up for a big attack". This is a BIG difference.
BTW - he dies quickly because he has like 60k HP because he decided to not use the lvl 70 armor so he could deal more damage. What I have an issue with ISNT the fact that he can do good damage its the fact that certain classes cannot do ANYTHING to avoid the SO procs (like GWF). Now if he attacks a CW or GF for instance, they both have DR that actually withstands against Piercing damage. Its really the Piercing that is the issue. Not the damage itself.
The imbalance is as I said above. Certain classes have zero means of fighting a player like this. TRs should be forced to choose between damage, survivability, utility. If you want perma stealth, you should lack damage. Issue there is the perma path gets SO - which seems just SILLY to me. They need to just make it not piercing.
Doesnt really matter, thats not what the video is to point out and FYI - a game like this "one sided" is usually won and lost by this margin because of ONE node not the entire field or team. If you have 1 node on lockdown, it alleviates pressure at mid, I wont even get into it. If you dont know, you dont know. This is why "TR" has always bee the best "backcapper" because they can kill anyone 1v1 and live the longest hands down. Why should they be able to do both so well? Seems illogical to me. Either they should kill quickly and be squishy like an assassin or they should love a long time and be versatile but have next to no damage.
I agree here. This is a big part of the issue. They hand the TR all the tools for free (like 100% crit in stealth so they dont have to stack it, piercing damage on feats and ARP on feats so they dont have to stack ARP) The fact that they can stealth hide SO well making it so you dont even need HP! I mean what DOES a TR need to stack? Basically Power and Recovery thats it. That shows you how bad the design is and why its stupid...
The SOLUTION to ALL of this though is to JUST make Shadowy Opp NON-Piercing. Its really that simple. If you want to damage go Exec. If you want to perma, youll deal little damage because you cant rely on SO to do most of the damage for you now.
Gear always makes a difference even if both players have BIS items, because all these bonuses affect specific builds and classes in different way. For Example LostMauth have a lot higher synergy with nearly perma stealth TR who will always crit then with other spec who dont have as high crit rate. If TR from other team would as good, this match would've been a lot more balanced, but for some reason he couldnt hold the flag alone for too long.
The best way to improve pvp is to disable all non-pvp items and enchants. This will cut a lot of bugs and make pvp much easier to balance, since gear gap will also be a lot smaller. TR using Stealth for escaping isn't an issue imo, but capping shouldnt be possible while stealthed. Bigger issue is that all pvp sets have the same HP bonus which gives ranged specs advantage.
Design of TR is bad, but it's the same for many other classes. Removing piercing dmg will not solve anything other than making the fights last longer or even render TR useless against targets which are harder to kill then GWF. Executioner is bad dps path. The only sustain dps increase is against targets who are very low on HP, while against full HP targets the dmg is very low except the first attack (if you have picked certain passives).
Devs need to put more effort in to reworking TR and stealth (too many abilities is balanced around current stealth hence any changes to stealth can ruin the spec totaly). Fow now they should just give GWF something like "for the next "X"s restores hp equal to 150% of the dmg taken". This would be good counter even to piercing dmg while having it's own drawback. (and if necessary for balance purposes, it could lower GWF movement speed or dmg)
Btw, you can still dmg TR when he's stealthed, but not with all abilities. I think most classes have some kind of ground aoe or skillshots , but most players prefer to complain rather than use all their tools. It would be the same as TR's complaing that they have to use ITC or Shadow Strike instead of having longer stealth by default and being able to pick up more dps encounters instead. Imo game gives players options to counter but it's up to the players to choose what they will use. Specific classes will always be better than other and you can't really change it, because MMO's are not balanced around 1vs1.
Despite our best intentions to make pvp more balance in NWO Cryptic may just totaly ignore it and focus on w/e will make the players spent more $. Perhpas they earn more from unbalanced game.
Comments
Either you or our DC sucked then, it is extremely hard for a equally geared cw to outdps the healing a dc do... And yeah attacking a dc with people around it, is a quick way to die!
https://youtu.be/MDErqrBU0IQ?t=268
Its not that the Shadowy Opp ITSELF hits for 10k+ its the TOTAL damage dealt by just 1 COS dagger that is hitting north of 10k and in some cases even 20k.
its the synergy of 100% crit, ELOL set bonus, Shadowy Opp + Lurkers that is allowing it do deal stupid damage.
All that needs to happen is for it just to NOT be piercing damage anymore and itll be fine. I mean watch him kill Tyrion, hes even IN unstoppable with a trans negation and it just bypasses it all.
Thats just a dumb mechanic in general. Piercing damage that is.
Yes, let's keep using these highly BiS guys as benchmarks for these nerf threads. Also, these BiS/R12 guys represent the majority apparently. :rolleyes:
Now down to business, can we agree then that Shadowy itself does not hit that hard as many make it seem so. It's done, stick a fork in it.
There's a problem with your statement. You assume that every TR have the full set of Lostmouth. Next, you assume all TRs uses lurker. For one, I myself and the TRs I have met in PVP, in the last few mods don't use lurker. Yes, I have not met one nor seen one until I watched that video. The majority of TRs use BB and SE. So you are saying let's nerf this power because of the interaction of powers that most people don't use or perhaps with items that is available to all players regardless of class? Dude, come on. The topic is that Shadowy itself hit so hard but again and again, the myth is dispelled. Let's look at the actual encounter being debated not add all these outside factors that not everyone across the board have.
wow it wasnt even a crit.
Can you post your stats like I have? I'd like to see what you got and we can figure out how it hit that hard. It could be because you don't have enough tenacity. I would be interested on how geared the player that was hitting you as well. But when it comes to equally geared, that will never get that close by itself. I know because I log myself against others.
For instance, this is a log of my last 3 PVP just finished 10 mins ago.
Makes me wonder if you were debuffed. I am fighting normally away from everyone so no debuffs and straight 1v1 majority of the time. Provide an ACT log or so, would love to see the consistencies of those hits.
It pierces through tenacity.
So the fact that he attacked similar geared opponents doesn't count?
If by any chance you're getting hit for big numbers it's related to one or all of the following:
- various debuffs.
- temporar buffs from arftifacts or supports.
- some broken interaction with set bonuses or enchants.
Several things to mention..
Your gear is very low. Also a Vorpal can really help since TR's always crits in Stealth (and not to forget the other benefits of being in stealth with several feats). A dummy is PvE so most of your attacks do the full 100% dps while in PvP it ignores Tenacity (I personally think that Piercing Damage shouldn't ignore that, especially if you count the buff Tenacity have since mod 6).
Pure that is already very deadly and you don't have to be some 4k IL TR.. if you combine it with Lostmauth set yeah than a TR is OP in PvP.
Weapon Damage shouldn't be buffed like crazy and shouldn't crit (just like ae. Plague Fire doesn't make any Crit DoT's). This makes me think about Deep Gash back in mod 2. And Piercing Damage shouldn't be in PvP except if it doesn't ignore Tenacity cause it makes too much of a difference which is plain unfair to the other DPS classes that don't have Piercing Damage and it's not like TR's really need this to perform.
I will respond to your post because unlike others you've put some arguments. I dont think my gear is that low. It's average T1 gear (full pvp set with some radiant 5-6) and both arti weapons. I know that Vorpal would boost my dmg, but atm cant afford one, because no luck with drops that i could sell for tons of AD.
My point was that main reason of unbalanced pvp in NWO is EXPENSIVE (often bugged) gear. There's also plenty of people who run with much worse gear in lvl70 pvp. If you will try to balance dmg of specific abilities only for BIS players it will create even bigger gap between pvp community and discourage even more people from pvp.
Yes, I know that but he shows me a screencap with no consistencies, and I showed you logs after logs in a very consistent manner. It makes me wonder if something was bugged that's allowing that interaction or any other factors. Explain to me how everyone feels it hits that hard and we know it's not true in all cases because I have provided you proof after proof. Now before someone says I have bad gear, here is my gear. I have P.VORP if you are wondering.
I am done after this post. I tried and tried to provide data but everyone just want to gripe. Until I hit 10K on shadowy, to me it does not hit that hard esp with 150K+ HPs out there. Don't make a decision based on illusion but look at the data. If I was bull****ting you, why couldn't I even reach that high, even with guys severely lowered gear than mine.
I know it, but upgrading MH from green to blue gives only ~33? weapon dmg. If you look at the dmg values on the movie and even boost them by 100% (from whatever gear) you wont get 10k crits, unless there are some strong buffs or debuffs involved.
Yeah... When he said "it could be because you dont have enough tenacity" I almost spat out my drink all over my monitor...
Piercing shouldnt be in PVP PERIOD.
BTW you HAVE to balance around BIS levels because its otherwise nearly impossible NOT to do so.
How will you know if a feat is broken or imbalanced at "lower tier" pvp? The margin of difference is negligible. Its like testing lifesteal at lower %s and with lower damage and saying "oh its fine on my 2,500 item level GWF, therefore must be balanced" How are you even determining "Fine" How do you even know if its 10% too good or 10% too weak.
Its ONLY when you take things out to their "extremes" that you can see the imbalance. Also as someone pointed out the CS video is ALSO against other BIS players.
I mean it makes no sense, its almost like saying "Negation isnt OP, I have a lesser and it doesnt make me ultra tanky".... "Why are you using BIS Trans players as the example, you cant balance around that blah blah".. But guess what, negation IS OP lol!
There are alot of things that need to be balanced and its only when you take them to the extremes that you see it. Like this lifesteal proc in GG for instance:
Not how it works. ALot of damage bonuses are multiplicative. As there has already been proof that it hits for over 10k.
Either way (for me) the bottom line is a done deal when you watch that CS video. You see the TR does nothing but COS Spam and it wipes out a BIS GWF with 1/2 HP in 2 seconds and nearly kills another BIS GF with just a few daggers AFTER Lurkers is used.
Its the combination of everything that is ******ed. Lurkers allows you to stay stealthed, spam COS and each dagger is NETTING 10-20k damage. The big issue with Shadowy Opp is its piercing damage.
Thats ALL you really need to fix is make it so it doesnt bypass tenacity/DR and then its fine. Heck even buff it if you want but it should NOT bypass DR.
I watched whole Video and despite not knowing the gear difference between both teams i can easily claim that you exaggerate. Try to look at his fights from a different point of view. He's playing assassin class, so he should be able to kill his enemies relatively quickly. Then take a look how long it takes him on average to kill one enemy. Look how quickly he dies when he make one little mistake. After all he got only half of the kills of CW.
I dont see much unbalance in this video. Imo fights on average lasted long enough to make it interesting or even boring at some point (mostly due to healers survivality). The only thing which i personally find bad is that so much of TR dmg comes from ranged at will attacks, and it's not because of SO proc, but because most TR encounters are very underpowered dmg wise.
It's also important to note that both teams had TR, yet match was one sided. Maybe because some classes are underperforming in 5v5, maybe because of gear gap or maybe because of difference in cooperation. MMO are not about 1vs1 and you shouldn't expect Devs to balance around such model.
Im not saying that TR doesnt need changes, because i would like to see more dps coming from encounters rather than at will attacks, but i dont know how our Devs perceive TR role.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
I disagree with such point of view. Tanks should be able to life longer than other classes while providing some buffs, debuffs and CC via auras and encounters. I think they're, seen some stacked with 150k hp+.
Imo assassins should be able to kill anything they want when given enough amount of time. This is imo fair in situations where tanks can 1-3 shot assassin (Paly's judgement) or GW insane burst + CC combo.
The only burst encounter which assassin have atm comes from 20s LB, that's why people switch to throwing at will. Even CW have more burst from encounters than assassin, and at much lower cd.
Maybe Devs could take tanks dmg away from pvp and in the same time boost their survivality to be unkillable for assassins, but imo it would make game play a lot more boring and even lead to more unbalance in specific situations. Whenever those 2 classes would meet each other near the flag they would've to afk since nobody would be able to kill each other no matter how much time they would attack.
Gear is negligeble in the fight. Both players are ~ BIS to the point gear makes no difference. In fact the TR is actually probably LESS item level since he is using lvl 60 PVP armor BECAUSE of the pvp set bonus.
I agree the assasin class should be able to kill quickly but then be VERY easy to also kill himself. This is the dichotomy that TR does NOT face in NW though because you can ITC, Shadow Strike and stealth run away. Ontop of that, the Assasin is or should only be able to easily kill when he has "stealth/surprise" on his side. In this game stealth is used as a defensive tool, NOT a utility tool though. You stealth so you cannot get hit, NOT stealth so you can "set your self up for a big attack". This is a BIG difference.
BTW - he dies quickly because he has like 60k HP because he decided to not use the lvl 70 armor so he could deal more damage. What I have an issue with ISNT the fact that he can do good damage its the fact that certain classes cannot do ANYTHING to avoid the SO procs (like GWF). Now if he attacks a CW or GF for instance, they both have DR that actually withstands against Piercing damage. Its really the Piercing that is the issue. Not the damage itself.
The imbalance is as I said above. Certain classes have zero means of fighting a player like this. TRs should be forced to choose between damage, survivability, utility. If you want perma stealth, you should lack damage. Issue there is the perma path gets SO - which seems just SILLY to me. They need to just make it not piercing.
Doesnt really matter, thats not what the video is to point out and FYI - a game like this "one sided" is usually won and lost by this margin because of ONE node not the entire field or team. If you have 1 node on lockdown, it alleviates pressure at mid, I wont even get into it. If you dont know, you dont know. This is why "TR" has always bee the best "backcapper" because they can kill anyone 1v1 and live the longest hands down. Why should they be able to do both so well? Seems illogical to me. Either they should kill quickly and be squishy like an assassin or they should love a long time and be versatile but have next to no damage.
I agree here. This is a big part of the issue. They hand the TR all the tools for free (like 100% crit in stealth so they dont have to stack it, piercing damage on feats and ARP on feats so they dont have to stack ARP) The fact that they can stealth hide SO well making it so you dont even need HP! I mean what DOES a TR need to stack? Basically Power and Recovery thats it. That shows you how bad the design is and why its stupid...
The SOLUTION to ALL of this though is to JUST make Shadowy Opp NON-Piercing. Its really that simple. If you want to damage go Exec. If you want to perma, youll deal little damage because you cant rely on SO to do most of the damage for you now.
Gear always makes a difference even if both players have BIS items, because all these bonuses affect specific builds and classes in different way. For Example LostMauth have a lot higher synergy with nearly perma stealth TR who will always crit then with other spec who dont have as high crit rate. If TR from other team would as good, this match would've been a lot more balanced, but for some reason he couldnt hold the flag alone for too long.
The best way to improve pvp is to disable all non-pvp items and enchants. This will cut a lot of bugs and make pvp much easier to balance, since gear gap will also be a lot smaller. TR using Stealth for escaping isn't an issue imo, but capping shouldnt be possible while stealthed. Bigger issue is that all pvp sets have the same HP bonus which gives ranged specs advantage.
Design of TR is bad, but it's the same for many other classes. Removing piercing dmg will not solve anything other than making the fights last longer or even render TR useless against targets which are harder to kill then GWF. Executioner is bad dps path. The only sustain dps increase is against targets who are very low on HP, while against full HP targets the dmg is very low except the first attack (if you have picked certain passives).
Devs need to put more effort in to reworking TR and stealth (too many abilities is balanced around current stealth hence any changes to stealth can ruin the spec totaly). Fow now they should just give GWF something like "for the next "X"s restores hp equal to 150% of the dmg taken". This would be good counter even to piercing dmg while having it's own drawback. (and if necessary for balance purposes, it could lower GWF movement speed or dmg)
Btw, you can still dmg TR when he's stealthed, but not with all abilities. I think most classes have some kind of ground aoe or skillshots , but most players prefer to complain rather than use all their tools. It would be the same as TR's complaing that they have to use ITC or Shadow Strike instead of having longer stealth by default and being able to pick up more dps encounters instead. Imo game gives players options to counter but it's up to the players to choose what they will use. Specific classes will always be better than other and you can't really change it, because MMO's are not balanced around 1vs1.
Despite our best intentions to make pvp more balance in NWO Cryptic may just totaly ignore it and focus on w/e will make the players spent more $. Perhpas they earn more from unbalanced game.