I figure if the entire front page of the forums is littered with “vote kick” posts, maybe they’ll take notice and do something about it.
Kicking is rampant and ripe for abuse.
Last night (as of the day I originally posted this), I was booted after killing hrimnir. After. Loot had already been picked up, rolled on, and distributed. The only thing left was picking up the chest. They booted me just so I wouldn't get the chest. That was after topping the meter at 18 million, giving them strat advice, and getting my cleric buddy to queue up to replace our healer (who they booted earlier). Apparently kick/boot trolling is fun to some people. They thought it was funny. They had nothing to gain by this – they didn’t get all the loot to themselves – they did it solely for lols to deny me a chest.
Here's the clip from my cleric buddies perspective after the kick - in case you're looking for people to add to your block list.
We run 3 deep now. No more kicking. Unfortunately - people see 3 of us, and think "oh they're going to kick me", which is equally bad for the community.
Ouch! Yeah worst part is I see they're all from different guilds so it makes you wonder... at least one of them probably voted "yes" just because it wasn't them being kicked. I think the auto-vote-yes mentality is a major part of the problem. More people need to be clicking "no" by default when a VTK screen pops up. I always click "no" if I don't know why the vote is happening.
Wait! This isn't a rant thread. Please hear me out before you post/ignore.
While I believe completely removing the VTK system would be more beneficial to the community than keeping it in its current form, I fully understand there are those rare times when kicks are necessary (e.g. disconnection/AFK and trollish behavior). I made a post in another thread discussing the current VTK issues that lays out the concept for a new system I think is a good compromise between those that want to remove VTK and those who want to keep it. Because that thread has all but run its course, I've started a new thread on the topic in the hopes of getting more player feedback.
The core design goal behind the new VTK system idea is to add risk for the people who abuse the current system, thus drastically reducing the incentive to kick without good reason while still allowing parties to manage membership. The chief risk-inducing mechanisms are added costs for initiating a VTK and immediate penalties for attempts to abuse the system. The rules of the new system are:
The cost of initiating a VTK should be a percentage of your total AD (perhaps 2 percent) or 10k AD, whichever is more
Zen could be used for payment as an alternate option (perhaps 100 Zen)
Succeed or fail, there would be no refund for initiating a VTK
Initiating two failed VTKs in a single dungeon/skirmish results in your immediate removal from the dungeon
(I'd actually favor an insta-kick after one failed VTK attempt, but in the interest of compromise, I stuck with two for those cases when a kick that should have succeeded fails because people hit the wrong button or were in a menu and missed the VTK dialog.)
This kind of system would effectively mitigate the risk of abuse. The added costs would make many abusers think twice about initiating a VTK at all, and it would quickly drain the required resources of abusers who keep trolling despite the increased costs. Either case results in the eventual reduction or elimination of their desire or ability to continue abusing the VTK system. Additionally, the insta-kick after two failed VTK attempts would make abusers rethink their tactics because failing to do so would result in their not being able to play any dungeons/skirmishes at all.
As an added bonus, this kind of system is an effective AD sink and would help keep inflation under control. Yes, there would still be a few people who abuse the system for the lulz, but the net result should be a significant reduction in VTK abuse. And for those few trolls with deep pockets and/or poor math skills who will gladly pay just to be jerks, this system would open yet another avenue for Zen sales (aka more revenue) for Cryptic/PW, so it's a win for the developers as well.
Overall, I think this kind of system would serve everyone, both the people who don't abuse VTK and want to keep it as well as the people who are sick and tired of the VTK and want to see it removed. Of course there are other changes that would enhance the effectiveness of this system, such as allowing direct party invites to dungeons/skirmishes for friends and allowing parties to set class/GS requirements for the group so the queue system wouldn't send them randoms they don't want, but I left that stuff out because it's really separate from the VTK system itself. What do you think? Is this a good compromise? Am I overlooking something? Let's talk about it.
Either way it's highly abused and this game is painful to play atm and me and my partner have just uninstalled the game and it's so much more relaxing... its like removing your cancer and feeling much better
I have read many posts here about how the kick button is abused and I couldn't agree more. It's annoying to be kicked constantly.
However, I do not think it should be removed completely.
There are only a couple of viable reasons when a player should be kicked:
(1) If the player is a bully. No one likes a person who is being a jerk.
(2) If the player is not pulling their weight. Sometimes a different class is needed, its nothing personal. I typically play with three friends in order to avoid the boot, but there is no reason to kick the two random players right off the bat. One, they can be friends just looking to play, and two, give them a chance to evaluate how they play, by the first couple of mobs you can see how well the group works together.
However, most people kick because of selfish reasons:
(1) Greed, most likely the biggest factor. People don't want competition for their purple drops and/or they want their group to have 100% chance of getting the loot.
(2) Feel they are superior and the other person is too low level. I don't know how many times people complain about gearscore! To be honest, I don't think gearscore is all the important anyways. It really think it is how your character is spec'd and how well everyone performs as a team. If you can get into the queue, then you clearly are qualified for the dungeon.
(3) Lack of team confidence. Some people just don't have faith that their current group setup can complete the dungeon.
(4) Because everybody else does it. If you have this mentality then I feel sorry for you, just because "everyone else does it" does not mean it is right, just or okay.
Like I said I don't believe the option should be completely removed, but rather modified:
Problem: Getting kicked after final boss because people are greedy, thus denying you from loot. Solution: Remove the option to vote to kick during final boss fight and after final boss has been defeated.
Problem: People join in the game half-way through and immediately vote to kick. Solution: Give the people who join in a 3 minute cool-down on the vote to kick. It sucks doing a four hour dungeon just for some d-bag to join in and vote to kick you out. Simply if they cannot vote right away they'd probably leave on their own.
Problem: Spam Voting Solution: Add a vote to kick cool-down! I typically will not start a dungeon without being in a group of three because then there is vote immunity and power. However, it's annoying when two other friends join in and back-to-back are voting to kick one of us out. If the group votes NO the first time, then tough luck, the player who called the vote should have to wait about 3 minutes until they can call the vote again.
Problem: The Queue System Solution: When you queue for dungeon you shouldn't be allowed to vote to kick for about 3 minutes. If you're going to queue, don't be picky about your teammates. If you want specific people take the time to go find them by looking for a group.
Feel free to agree/disagree and add your own thoughts on changes in the comments! Happy gaming
There should be no vote to kick option at all if you join a pug group it is then your problem with what happens in it... don't like it don't pug... pug groups should not be able to kick... want to kick make your own group of 5 people... and enter it manual... problem solved
Well thought out, thank you for sharing. I like your identifications of the problems and solutions. It seems reasonable and fair to me. It may eliminate some of the real pain people are experiencing.
With that said, there absolutely SHOULD be a kick system. Especially for PUGs. What if someone joins and goes to eat dinner? What if someone is in a storm, power goes out and they are there disc...What happens if someone joins in the group and then starts cussing, harassing, threatening the other group members?
This is not the kind of problem that can be solved by a broad sweeping gesture of it is 100% free for all or 100% Not even available.
There is a solution in the middle somewhere and it won't please everyone, but perhaps it will improve. Your solutions sound like a good start to me!
Yes, I'm female. No, you can't see my HAMSTER.
Level 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Caimeta
Level 60 Guardian Fighter - Princess Clappy
Level 60 Control Wizard - Rashenbo
Next up... Butcher of Lock Love
I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code
It is annoying. As a 16k hr trapper that plays any content in the game w relative ease I got insta kicked in the one queue I tried yesterday. Now, I haven't solo queued in weeks since I run w my guild but this one separated me from guildies for some reason.
As anyone will tell you, guild is the way to go. I can't assuage your anger, nor would I try as its really a lame process. If you are looking for ppl though, we are recruiting lvl 60's that are committed to the game and focus on end game content for farming etc. We are Universe, and you can find us on the recruitment page.
Whatever you decide, we all feel your pain. Get involved in a good guild. Choose wisely. And enjoy the game the way it should be.
This is neither common sense, nor the popular opinion amongst players, nor the best course of action.
It would be a terrible idea that would make the game un-playable to disable/remove VTK.
It is only the popular opinion amongst whiners on these forums, not of the player-base, the majority of which probably realize how necessary, albeit in need of some minor changes, the VTK system is.
Removing it would be the worst course of action, though I readily admit it is frequently abused and needs to be tweaked.
Typical how the griefers who vote kick abuse come here to defend and call others whiners.... grow up kid....
Yeah there is... op rogues 1 shot people... this game is one big joke elderscrolls will be out in 3 weeks so this game will die because of thst... If you say nope it won't the you are just lieing because you know it is and scared it will
There should be no vote to kick option at all if you join a pug group it is then your problem with what happens in it... don't like it don't pug... pug groups should not be able to kick... want to kick make your own group of 5 people... and enter it manual... problem solved
Inconsiderate much? There are a vast amount of reasons why vote to kick that are 100% not your problem. As @goetzymama said there could be a power outage and someone can disconnect or some rude person can join and harass everyone. There is no reason to be stuck with either player.
Your not stuck just leave.... but elderscrolls will be out in 3 weeks and neverwinter will die so who cares about this trash game that's losing 100s of players a day...
Comments
...or fixed.
Then they must be on 24x7... Sadly there is a greater percentage of ******nozels than you might expect
Ouch! Yeah worst part is I see they're all from different guilds so it makes you wonder... at least one of them probably voted "yes" just because it wasn't them being kicked. I think the auto-vote-yes mentality is a major part of the problem. More people need to be clicking "no" by default when a VTK screen pops up. I always click "no" if I don't know why the vote is happening.
FeelTheBern
While I believe completely removing the VTK system would be more beneficial to the community than keeping it in its current form, I fully understand there are those rare times when kicks are necessary (e.g. disconnection/AFK and trollish behavior). I made a post in another thread discussing the current VTK issues that lays out the concept for a new system I think is a good compromise between those that want to remove VTK and those who want to keep it. Because that thread has all but run its course, I've started a new thread on the topic in the hopes of getting more player feedback.
The core design goal behind the new VTK system idea is to add risk for the people who abuse the current system, thus drastically reducing the incentive to kick without good reason while still allowing parties to manage membership. The chief risk-inducing mechanisms are added costs for initiating a VTK and immediate penalties for attempts to abuse the system. The rules of the new system are:
(I'd actually favor an insta-kick after one failed VTK attempt, but in the interest of compromise, I stuck with two for those cases when a kick that should have succeeded fails because people hit the wrong button or were in a menu and missed the VTK dialog.)
This kind of system would effectively mitigate the risk of abuse. The added costs would make many abusers think twice about initiating a VTK at all, and it would quickly drain the required resources of abusers who keep trolling despite the increased costs. Either case results in the eventual reduction or elimination of their desire or ability to continue abusing the VTK system. Additionally, the insta-kick after two failed VTK attempts would make abusers rethink their tactics because failing to do so would result in their not being able to play any dungeons/skirmishes at all.
As an added bonus, this kind of system is an effective AD sink and would help keep inflation under control. Yes, there would still be a few people who abuse the system for the lulz, but the net result should be a significant reduction in VTK abuse. And for those few trolls with deep pockets and/or poor math skills who will gladly pay just to be jerks, this system would open yet another avenue for Zen sales (aka more revenue) for Cryptic/PW, so it's a win for the developers as well.
Overall, I think this kind of system would serve everyone, both the people who don't abuse VTK and want to keep it as well as the people who are sick and tired of the VTK and want to see it removed. Of course there are other changes that would enhance the effectiveness of this system, such as allowing direct party invites to dungeons/skirmishes for friends and allowing parties to set class/GS requirements for the group so the queue system wouldn't send them randoms they don't want, but I left that stuff out because it's really separate from the VTK system itself. What do you think? Is this a good compromise? Am I overlooking something? Let's talk about it.
It takes a long time to get a guild group going..its better if the devs just fixed the kick system
However, I do not think it should be removed completely.
There are only a couple of viable reasons when a player should be kicked:
(1) If the player is a bully. No one likes a person who is being a jerk.
(2) If the player is not pulling their weight. Sometimes a different class is needed, its nothing personal. I typically play with three friends in order to avoid the boot, but there is no reason to kick the two random players right off the bat. One, they can be friends just looking to play, and two, give them a chance to evaluate how they play, by the first couple of mobs you can see how well the group works together.
However, most people kick because of selfish reasons:
(1) Greed, most likely the biggest factor. People don't want competition for their purple drops and/or they want their group to have 100% chance of getting the loot.
(2) Feel they are superior and the other person is too low level. I don't know how many times people complain about gearscore! To be honest, I don't think gearscore is all the important anyways. It really think it is how your character is spec'd and how well everyone performs as a team. If you can get into the queue, then you clearly are qualified for the dungeon.
(3) Lack of team confidence. Some people just don't have faith that their current group setup can complete the dungeon.
(4) Because everybody else does it. If you have this mentality then I feel sorry for you, just because "everyone else does it" does not mean it is right, just or okay.
Like I said I don't believe the option should be completely removed, but rather modified:
Problem: Getting kicked after final boss because people are greedy, thus denying you from loot.
Solution: Remove the option to vote to kick during final boss fight and after final boss has been defeated.
Problem: People join in the game half-way through and immediately vote to kick.
Solution: Give the people who join in a 3 minute cool-down on the vote to kick. It sucks doing a four hour dungeon just for some d-bag to join in and vote to kick you out. Simply if they cannot vote right away they'd probably leave on their own.
Problem: Spam Voting
Solution: Add a vote to kick cool-down! I typically will not start a dungeon without being in a group of three because then there is vote immunity and power. However, it's annoying when two other friends join in and back-to-back are voting to kick one of us out. If the group votes NO the first time, then tough luck, the player who called the vote should have to wait about 3 minutes until they can call the vote again.
Problem: The Queue System
Solution: When you queue for dungeon you shouldn't be allowed to vote to kick for about 3 minutes. If you're going to queue, don't be picky about your teammates. If you want specific people take the time to go find them by looking for a group.
Feel free to agree/disagree and add your own thoughts on changes in the comments! Happy gaming
Remove the Vote kick option... We shouldn't have to not play with random because of an easy fixable thing..
With that said, there absolutely SHOULD be a kick system. Especially for PUGs. What if someone joins and goes to eat dinner? What if someone is in a storm, power goes out and they are there disc...What happens if someone joins in the group and then starts cussing, harassing, threatening the other group members?
This is not the kind of problem that can be solved by a broad sweeping gesture of it is 100% free for all or 100% Not even available.
There is a solution in the middle somewhere and it won't please everyone, but perhaps it will improve. Your solutions sound like a good start to me!
Level 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Caimeta
Level 60 Guardian Fighter - Princess Clappy
Level 60 Control Wizard - Rashenbo
Next up... Butcher of Lock Love
As anyone will tell you, guild is the way to go. I can't assuage your anger, nor would I try as its really a lame process. If you are looking for ppl though, we are recruiting lvl 60's that are committed to the game and focus on end game content for farming etc. We are Universe, and you can find us on the recruitment page.
Whatever you decide, we all feel your pain. Get involved in a good guild. Choose wisely. And enjoy the game the way it should be.
Good luck.
Typical how the griefers who vote kick abuse come here to defend and call others whiners.... grow up kid....
< Goon Squad >
Inconsiderate much? There are a vast amount of reasons why vote to kick that are 100% not your problem. As @goetzymama said there could be a power outage and someone can disconnect or some rude person can join and harass everyone. There is no reason to be stuck with either player.