Why does any class do the insane damage they do? People die against a TR in PvP and automatically it's the TR that is OP and obviously broken. Maybe you just suck. Hell, maybe I suck. That's not the point. It's a ****ing game. Have fun you are allowed to suck. Just stop with the ****ing excuses and *****ing.
Dude. TR is an OP joke. You might like running around no skillin toons due to a broken OP class but the rest of us want balance. Lol....
Gear always makes a difference even if both players have BIS items, because all these bonuses affect specific builds and classes in different way. For Example LostMauth have a lot higher synergy with nearly perma stealth TR who will always crit then with other spec who dont have as high crit rate. If TR from other team would as good, this match would've been a lot more balanced, but for some reason he couldnt hold the flag alone for too long.
When both teams are BIS the "meta" can change but overall the effect of gear SHOULD be "moot". LM set bonus also works well with GWFs too because of their crazy high damage bonuses. Part of the problem is just how well a class like TR completely negates and counters a GWF. Or an HR can completely negate out a CW. While the game isnt 1v1, I dont think you should EVER have classes that can 100% negate out a class in a domination game. Now if there were NO contesting and nodes were either capped or not, then go ahead and have negation classes since it doesnt do anything. But when you have a class like TR that can perma around without even killing anything JUST to contest a node, and there is nothing you can do about it except hope to 2v1 him, thats when it becomes VERY dumb.
Of and BTW, the "other TR" death could be attributed to 3rd party programs as there are some out there that show you where TRs are stealthed. If you are smart you probably can guess who uses it
The best way to improve pvp is to disable all non-pvp items and enchants. This will cut a lot of bugs and make pvp much easier to balance, since gear gap will also be a lot smaller. TR using Stealth for escaping isn't an issue imo, but capping shouldnt be possible while stealthed. Bigger issue is that all pvp sets have the same HP bonus which gives ranged specs advantage.
This will not work. You cannot do this as it kills any incentive for players to pay for things. Do you know the Russian server is the largest contributor to Cryptic? Its also where PVP is the most popular. Weird how there is a correlation there... Its not PVE players paying for rank 12 enchants, what is an extra 150 stats gonna do? Thats not even .5% of a stat. But it IS PVP players who will pay for that <.5% because it adds up and DOES make a difference.
I agree the HP pools being the same is a big issue, so is DR being the same. They undervalue AC and Defense which are probably BIGGER issues than HP being the same. Thats where I would first go, buff up AC/Defense and then get rid or nerf things like "Shield" for CW or "Negation Enchant" that allow non tanky classes to be tanky.
Design of TR is bad, but it's the same for many other classes. Removing piercing dmg will not solve anything other than making the fights last longer or even render TR useless against targets which are harder to kill then GWF. Executioner is bad dps path. The only sustain dps increase is against targets who are very low on HP, while against full HP targets the dmg is very low except the first attack (if you have picked certain passives).
Devs need to put more effort in to reworking TR and stealth (too many abilities is balanced around current stealth hence any changes to stealth can ruin the spec totaly). Fow now they should just give GWF something like "for the next "X"s restores hp equal to 150% of the dmg taken". This would be good counter even to piercing dmg while having it's own drawback. (and if necessary for balance purposes, it could lower GWF movement speed or dmg)
Piercing is probably the biggest nail right now that should be nailed down. Its the worst thing to ever be implemented into the game. TR Exec Tree needs to get beefed up. Fact of the matter is they need to just do away with attacking in stealth. It really ruins the game TBH. Every game I have ever played I have never seen a class that can damage while stealthed. ANY attack should pop you out of stealth. Period. Then you can rebalance the class from there. THEN it makes no difference if you give the class 100% crit in stealth. Thats fine.
GWFs - there are ALOT wrong there, I wont even get started with all the dumb HAMSTER they did to the class...
Btw, you can still dmg TR when he's stealthed, but not with all abilities. I think most classes have some kind of ground aoe or skillshots , but most players prefer to complain rather than use all their tools. It would be the same as TR's complaing that they have to use ITC or Shadow Strike instead of having longer stealth by default and being able to pick up more dps encounters instead. Imo game gives players options to counter but it's up to the players to choose what they will use. Specific classes will always be better than other and you can't really change it, because MMO's are not balanced around 1vs1.
Only if the TR is bad. This is again one of the flaws. A player doesnt beat a TR because the player is better. Its ONLY if the TR makes mistakes does the TR lose. NO class can 2v1 like a TR or 1v1 like a TR. It would be fine in a "slayer" or "CTF" game, but in domination where the entire purpose of the TR is just to STALL on the node? Its just REALLY lame....
I think overall the TR should stealth as long as they want (perma) however ANY attack breaks stealth. Ontop of that stealth should NO longer "contest" a node. Now the TR can be balanced around that. Give the TR some better tools to be better assasins. RE-stealthing would be great now allowing you to pop in and out of the shadows and hide indefinitely however cannot use stealth to attack and cannot use stealth to contest. Fixing the two biggest issues with NW PVP.
The TR would be THE assasin class and should be the best damage dealers.
Of and BTW, the "other TR" death could be attributed to 3rd party programs as there are some out there that show you where TRs are stealthed. If you are smart you probably can guess who uses it
No, it can't be attributed to that. If you are smart, you would realize that.
Of and BTW, the "other TR" death could be attributed to 3rd party programs as there are some out there that show you where TRs are stealthed. If you are smart you probably can guess who uses it
omg i cant believe you actually said that.. First its sobek? then its allt and taylor? Does Requiem also use a 3rd party program that lets her see into the future so she can most efficiently rotate to the node where people will need the most heals?
If you guys accepted a premade or two from time to time maybe you would get some practice killing trs. Just sayin'. But saying what you said is a new low for you i dident think was possible to accomplish, but you did it anyway, GJ
Of and BTW, the "other TR" death could be attributed to 3rd party programs as there are some out there that show you where TRs are stealthed. If you are smart you probably can guess who uses it
.
My my my Ayroux, I must say I had a lot of respect for you up to this moment. We have known each other for quite a while now and you have always been actively trying to make makes things better for pvp and that is admirable.
However, now you go and join the sea of pugs that result to petty and absurd accusations of hacking because they cannot possibly comprehend how they could have been bested otherwise.
Frankly from a man that claims he bases his opinion on testing and actual facts, this is quite the disappointment.
It would seem your long absence from the Pvp scene has become glaring and your opinion compromised.
I would hope that you and your colleagues one day wake up from these delusions so you may realize that deflecting the reality with ludicrous accusations only serves to keep you down, so if you guys want to remain with the rest of the pugs that accuse people of hacking that will forever stay as they are, then I guess this is the extent i can do to help.
I agree sometimes PvP looks like as if somebody cheated on you, it truly does after meeting some TRs in domination or GWFs/GF that kill you just by stanind nearby and taking damage. Saw a GWF on our node that killed 2 pugs with avalanche procs while I was attacking him ffs...but accusing somebody of using 3rd party programms? Is this 10 lvl pvp? Any sober-minded PvPer knows how to track TRs in stealth or should be both common sense and hearing labeled as a cheat nowdays? Troll.
Gear is negligeble in the fight. Both players are ~ BIS to the point gear makes no difference. In fact the TR is actually probably LESS item level since he is using lvl 60 PVP armor BECAUSE of the pvp set bonus.
I agree the assasin class should be able to kill quickly but then be VERY easy to also kill himself. This is the dichotomy that TR does NOT face in NW though because you can ITC, Shadow Strike and stealth run away. Ontop of that, the Assasin is or should only be able to easily kill when he has "stealth/surprise" on his side. In this game stealth is used as a defensive tool, NOT a utility tool though. You stealth so you cannot get hit, NOT stealth so you can "set your self up for a big attack". This is a BIG difference.
BTW - he dies quickly because he has like 60k HP because he decided to not use the lvl 70 armor so he could deal more damage. What I have an issue with ISNT the fact that he can do good damage its the fact that certain classes cannot do ANYTHING to avoid the SO procs (like GWF). Now if he attacks a CW or GF for instance, they both have DR that actually withstands against Piercing damage. Its really the Piercing that is the issue. Not the damage itself.
The imbalance is as I said above. Certain classes have zero means of fighting a player like this. TRs should be forced to choose between damage, survivability, utility. If you want perma stealth, you should lack damage. Issue there is the perma path gets SO - which seems just SILLY to me. They need to just make it not piercing.
Doesnt really matter, thats not what the video is to point out and FYI - a game like this "one sided" is usually won and lost by this margin because of ONE node not the entire field or team. If you have 1 node on lockdown, it alleviates pressure at mid, I wont even get into it. If you dont know, you dont know. This is why "TR" has always bee the best "backcapper" because they can kill anyone 1v1 and live the longest hands down. Why should they be able to do both so well? Seems illogical to me. Either they should kill quickly and be squishy like an assassin or they should love a long time and be versatile but have next to no damage.
I agree here. This is a big part of the issue. They hand the TR all the tools for free (like 100% crit in stealth so they dont have to stack it, piercing damage on feats and ARP on feats so they dont have to stack ARP) The fact that they can stealth hide SO well making it so you dont even need HP! I mean what DOES a TR need to stack? Basically Power and Recovery thats it. That shows you how bad the design is and why its stupid...
The SOLUTION to ALL of this though is to JUST make Shadowy Opp NON-Piercing. Its really that simple. If you want to damage go Exec. If you want to perma, youll deal little damage because you cant rely on SO to do most of the damage for you now.
I hope this "premade" is sometime soon, and not a few weeks of wait, seriously...
I like how people don't even know what to accuse Sobek of. Hard target lock? Third party program? Being suspiciously too "lucky"?
yeah i agree deff target lock in that vid ive seen it in other vids. sobek is just really good i dont think he cheats. i cant see anywhere where he would use a third party program.
Since the thread is about shadowy opportunity and has developed to be about target lock...how about both at the same time? Kinda noticed that if I target lock another TR I can just cos spam him from itc and stealth and he isn't going into stealth and he dies. Well, usually. It is the stinkiest of the stinky cheese.
Since the thread is about shadowy opportunity and has developed to be about target lock...how about both at the same time? Kinda noticed that if I target lock another TR I can just cos spam him from itc and stealth and he isn't going into stealth and he dies. Well, usually. It is the stinkiest of the stinky cheese.
IMO, in terms of PvP the less artificial 'help' the better. Just disable any target locking. Every targeting purely manual. That way, "formations" actually do have meaning. Like, those guys with the big-HAMSTER friggin' shields can actually stand in between the attacker and protect someone in a more realistic sense.
Nothing unmitigated, nothing unavoiable, nothing inevitable, and nothing AUTO in PvP.
IMO, in terms of PvP the less artificial 'help' the better. Just disable any target locking. Every targeting purely manual. That way, "formations" actually do have meaning. Like, those guys with the big-HAMSTER friggin' shields can actually stand in between the attacker and protect someone in a more realistic sense.
Nothing unmitigated, nothing unavoiable, nothing inevitable, and nothing AUTO in PvP.
I don't disagree. But there needs to be some order in the wild west first. "Of course I'll fight with a rubber sword while everyone else is cutting me to bits with metal swords. Because things should be fair like that."
It's pretty clear that the present version of Shadowy Opportunity needs to be fixed, and it should be a high priority in terms of PvP fixes.
The TR pops Lurker's Assault, stands around and spams CoS for massive damage, with some nice Shadowy Opportunity multiprocs. The damage needs to be heavily reduced (fix multiprocs first) and not piercing, and they should probably reinstate stealth reveal too. The original rationale for introducing that still stands; there needs to be more room for counterplay against TRs, and the present model does not allow for that.
Once that is fixed, they should remove stuff like hard target lock, which is also stupid (but also not the subject of the thread).
Take away piercing, itc, and castrate stealth along with everything else so CWs can just freely shred TRs from behind shield on tab and t.neg. Cause that is fair right? You can replace CW/tabbed shield t.neg with your favorite class and op power/set up. Rage on and post hate and flames. It doesn't matter. People will use their own cheese to counter the cheese of others. But the very worst cheese of all is getting on the forums to qq about a class or paragon path while enjoying all of the wacked out wai benefits of ones own.
It's pretty clear that the present version of Shadowy Opportunity needs to be fixed, and it should be a high priority in terms of PvP fixes.
The TR pops Lurker's Assault, stands around and spams CoS for massive damage, with some nice Shadowy Opportunity multiprocs. The damage needs to be heavily reduced (fix multiprocs first) and not piercing, and they should probably reinstate stealth reveal too. The original rationale for introducing that still stands; there needs to be more room for counterplay against TRs, and the present model does not allow for that.
Once that is fixed, they should remove stuff like hard target lock, which is also stupid (but also not the subject of the thread).
Wrong.
Current model: Tons of bugged/nerfed passives proccing all at once, including piercing damage. We should counter this with stealth reveal because that'll solve the ****ing problem.
Realistic model: Balanced/fixed passives proccing all at once, giving suitable damage. ITC is fixed, no stealth reveal because our players are smart enough to know how big a node is.
Stop complaining about things that don't matter.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
There is no cheese for most classes to counter the cheese of TRs. Maybe OPs or DCs can survive it. What should be done about other classes isn't the topic at hand here, though. Just that Shadowy Opportunity is one of a very large number of things that needs a fix, but still one of the things that should have the highest priority because it's one of the most broken things in the game at the moment.
There is a possibility of compromise, though.
For example, Oppressive Darkness adds like maybe 600 damage per attack. I don't see anyone complaining about this one, and sometimes this does have uses against classes with extremely powerful defense/damage reduction. It would allow you to repeatedly land low~moderate range damage that is unaffected by mitigation -- in which case it becomes a limited counter against a certain type of defense. Yes, a limited counter, not an all-out buwahaha your defenses mean jackshid! counter like SE or SO.
Most everyone would probably realize that this is what the piercing damage was originally intended to be. When there's a certain opponent with either extreme overall DR, or extreme deflect, or BOTH, an attack type like piercing damage would allow you to reliably land at least a certain amount of constant low~moderate damage and not just become useless against that opponent.
But then, since the HRs and their bugged Piercing Blades (which used 40% damage factor based upon pre-mitigation damage values), for some reason the devs have continuously failed to keep this mind and went over the top with it. Soon, piercing damage became an easy way for them to "compensate" classes with bad designs or lacking features.
Honestly speaking, I'd say piercing damage is a matter of principle. The "if it goes through all defenses, then it should be low damage" principle just disappeared. We should have them bring this principle back, if the devs truly refuse to get rid of piercing altogether.
In that sense, these are the alternatives for SO I see:
(1) remove the "piercing" part, change it into a simple percentage of initiating power like how HR Piercing Blade is.
(2) keep the "piercing" part, but restrict it to much lower overall damage. It is ridiculous in that the initiating power like CoS can hit for only 700~800 damage because of target's defenses, and then the "extra damage" SO itself hits for like 3~4k... absurd.
(3) remove SO as a damage buff altogether, and switch it to some other form of buff, because come on, Sabos are now the only TRs that can permastealth, and at the same time hits the hardest as well
...personally I'd vote for (3). Sabos are almost unaffected by the shortened stealth duration. It's so easy to manage it. Stealth is the largest asset a TR holds both in terms of defense and offense... so then why should a TR type that has both the best defense and offense, also be able to hit the hardest?
Why stop at nerf requests? Ask for a removal. Sabos don't really need it. Other paths need damage buffs, not Sabos. As a matter of fact, if SO is to be replaced, I can't even think of what buffs they need. They've already got everything. Fastest skill recharge of all TRs.. strongest damage of all TRs... strongest defense of all TRs... easiest stealth management of all TRs... by god at least take away SO and give them the handicap of being "lowest damage" or something.
There is no cheese for most classes to counter the cheese of TRs. Maybe OPs or DCs can survive it. What should be done about other classes isn't the topic at hand here, though. Just that Shadowy Opportunity is one of a very large number of things that needs a fix, but still one of the things that should have the highest priority because it's one of the most broken things in the game at the moment.
Pointless for me to point it out because I know minds won't change. Like I have said very often recently, pvp is becoming a matter of people protecting their own wack things while pointing the finger at others.
Doesnt matter if SO gonna be changed, TR's will just use wheel and fire buff for better damage output <---TR here. We can adapt, we can use what other classes are using. Most PvP players are asking for piercing damage rework at least to the lvl where piercing obeys tenacity. But each mod we are getting new stuff that adds piercing damage, that in most cases is avalaible for all classes: glyphs, wheel, you name it. And no, stealth reveal is not gonna happen. You got your TR nerf with set bonus gone from profound, adding stealth reveal is to much and devs know that You just need to relearn how to find TR's on node again like in old days.
Doesnt matter if SO gonna be changed, TR's will just use wheel and fire buff for better damage output <---TR here. We can adapt, we can use what other classes are using. Most PvP players are asking for piercing damage rework at least to the lvl where piercing obeys tenacity. But each mod we are getting new stuff that adds piercing damage, that in most cases is avalaible for all classes: glyphs, wheel, you name it. And no, stealth reveal is not gonna happen. You got your TR nerf with set bonus gone from profound, adding stealth reveal is to much and devs know that You just need to relearn how to find TR's on node again like in old days.
Finding TR isn't the issue, it's the damage output before you can find them that's the issue. I enjoy the challenge of finding TRs in stealth. I don't enjoy the 50k HP I lose from COS/SO spam in the 3 seconds it takes for me to get within range to hit them. I also don't like the 5 second downtime of ITC.
Right now, before TR gets any balance passes, the multiprocing from Shadowy Opportunity should be fixed. Shadowy Opportunity currently procs 2-3 times on every CoS hit from stealth, resulting in 2-3 times the DPS output a TR should have. Once that's fixed, then we'll see where TR lies. No doubt there will need to be some adjustments to survivability, however, I think overall people won't complain as much once the damage output isn't at ridiculous levels.
On the note of balance passes, I think ITC should work like some HR dailies/encounters such as Forest Ghost and Ambush. While the encounter is active, there should be a countdown, so that the ITC duration doesn't overlap with the cooldown, so that you actually have 10 seconds of ITC downtime, instead of 5 seconds, for example.
Shadowy Opportunity should also be changed to normal damage rather than piercing damage, especially with the recent changes to armor penetration and tenacity.
Additionally, recovery should get a cap.
By the way, using broken/bugged mechanics such as Wheel of Elements: Fire, which is probably bugged, doesn't count as being a counter to a TR, especially since TRs can use it too.
I mostly want stealth reveal back so I can somewhat counter CoS spam. If they re-add stealth reveal on Cloud of Steel only, I'm happy. As it stands, properly spec'd and geared TRs are undefeatable in 1v1s right now, and can survive for ages in 1v2. The class doesn't need to be nerfed into the ground, it just needs some toning down so that other classes at least have a chance at finding an opening.
I must admit i feel kinda silly throwing cos from stealth all day long, but a feytouched will totally take away a trs damage. There are a lot of counters to tr for sure, i just dont think people have figured them out yet.
Just because your class cannot counter TR doesnt mean others cant. In the video posted earlier in this thread you could see that DC could pretty much tie with TR to keep the flag most of the time. GF could even burst TR down. Piercing dmg existing in many games with different names (like True dmg in LoL or pure dmg in Dota) and usually assassins or some kind of anti-tank have it (for example Irelia)
If specific classes can tie with BIS geared TR or kill him it's probably WAI. (and if you do premade you always have an option to send your TR against enemy TR for a close battle)
Another thing which you should keep in mind is that NWO is still mostly PvE game, so whenever you want to change something, you need to take in to account PvE aspects as well as majority of players who dont have BIS gear. PvE players (especially those who dont have BIS gear) would rage hard if they couldnt get in to dungeon party because suddenly their toon bacame subpar dps spec. (TR was already in bad spot a while ago and im pretty sure Devs dont want that to happen again)
If you dislike the current CoS spam with SO and would like to have it changed in to something else, you will have to suggest some kind of buffs to melee attacks that would affect dmg based on how far TR is from it's target.
For example, from my point of view balanced change could work would like:
SO does piercing dmg based on how far you are from your target. (1m = 100% additional piercing dmg. 60m (max TR range) = 10% additional piercing dmg - from current 75%)
This would be a buff for a melee builds which are a lot easier to counter and have long delay between attacks and pretty big nerf for those who stand at high range and have low delay between each attack.
I were just doing some GG pvp matches while i just noticed that a TR were dealing so much damage vs me (Tank gear + G. Negation)...
watching combat log, i saw this:
Was not supposed to hit only up to 75% of weapon damage??? Which is the meaning about this or how is possible that a TR weapon has, in this case, 10k base damage?
It's not doing too much damage alone. Things add up.
Lurker's Assault +30% Damage
Invisible Infiltrator +20% Damage
Combat Advantage (15% Damage)
Feat Ambusher's Haste 25% Damage scaled to remaining stealth meter
Feat Flashing Blades 5% Damage scaled to missing stealth meter
Feat Vicious Pursuit 5% Damage
Heck, First Strike maybe??? +75% damage on first strike I dunno never tried.
Comments
Dude. TR is an OP joke. You might like running around no skillin toons due to a broken OP class but the rest of us want balance. Lol....
You should be ashamed of your class.
He plays a WK, not an MI. I don't think anyone at all is complaining about the WK.
When both teams are BIS the "meta" can change but overall the effect of gear SHOULD be "moot". LM set bonus also works well with GWFs too because of their crazy high damage bonuses. Part of the problem is just how well a class like TR completely negates and counters a GWF. Or an HR can completely negate out a CW. While the game isnt 1v1, I dont think you should EVER have classes that can 100% negate out a class in a domination game. Now if there were NO contesting and nodes were either capped or not, then go ahead and have negation classes since it doesnt do anything. But when you have a class like TR that can perma around without even killing anything JUST to contest a node, and there is nothing you can do about it except hope to 2v1 him, thats when it becomes VERY dumb.
Of and BTW, the "other TR" death could be attributed to 3rd party programs as there are some out there that show you where TRs are stealthed. If you are smart you probably can guess who uses it
This will not work. You cannot do this as it kills any incentive for players to pay for things. Do you know the Russian server is the largest contributor to Cryptic? Its also where PVP is the most popular. Weird how there is a correlation there... Its not PVE players paying for rank 12 enchants, what is an extra 150 stats gonna do? Thats not even .5% of a stat. But it IS PVP players who will pay for that <.5% because it adds up and DOES make a difference.
I agree the HP pools being the same is a big issue, so is DR being the same. They undervalue AC and Defense which are probably BIGGER issues than HP being the same. Thats where I would first go, buff up AC/Defense and then get rid or nerf things like "Shield" for CW or "Negation Enchant" that allow non tanky classes to be tanky.
Piercing is probably the biggest nail right now that should be nailed down. Its the worst thing to ever be implemented into the game. TR Exec Tree needs to get beefed up. Fact of the matter is they need to just do away with attacking in stealth. It really ruins the game TBH. Every game I have ever played I have never seen a class that can damage while stealthed. ANY attack should pop you out of stealth. Period. Then you can rebalance the class from there. THEN it makes no difference if you give the class 100% crit in stealth. Thats fine.
GWFs - there are ALOT wrong there, I wont even get started with all the dumb HAMSTER they did to the class...
Only if the TR is bad. This is again one of the flaws. A player doesnt beat a TR because the player is better. Its ONLY if the TR makes mistakes does the TR lose. NO class can 2v1 like a TR or 1v1 like a TR. It would be fine in a "slayer" or "CTF" game, but in domination where the entire purpose of the TR is just to STALL on the node? Its just REALLY lame....
I think overall the TR should stealth as long as they want (perma) however ANY attack breaks stealth. Ontop of that stealth should NO longer "contest" a node. Now the TR can be balanced around that. Give the TR some better tools to be better assasins. RE-stealthing would be great now allowing you to pop in and out of the shadows and hide indefinitely however cannot use stealth to attack and cannot use stealth to contest. Fixing the two biggest issues with NW PVP.
The TR would be THE assasin class and should be the best damage dealers.
No, it can't be attributed to that. If you are smart, you would realize that.
omg i cant believe you actually said that.. First its sobek? then its allt and taylor? Does Requiem also use a 3rd party program that lets her see into the future so she can most efficiently rotate to the node where people will need the most heals?
If you guys accepted a premade or two from time to time maybe you would get some practice killing trs. Just sayin'. But saying what you said is a new low for you i dident think was possible to accomplish, but you did it anyway, GJ
My my my Ayroux, I must say I had a lot of respect for you up to this moment. We have known each other for quite a while now and you have always been actively trying to make makes things better for pvp and that is admirable.
However, now you go and join the sea of pugs that result to petty and absurd accusations of hacking because they cannot possibly comprehend how they could have been bested otherwise.
Frankly from a man that claims he bases his opinion on testing and actual facts, this is quite the disappointment.
It would seem your long absence from the Pvp scene has become glaring and your opinion compromised.
I would hope that you and your colleagues one day wake up from these delusions so you may realize that deflecting the reality with ludicrous accusations only serves to keep you down, so if you guys want to remain with the rest of the pugs that accuse people of hacking that will forever stay as they are, then I guess this is the extent i can do to help.
WTB Class Reroll please
I hope this "premade" is sometime soon, and not a few weeks of wait, seriously...
yeah i agree deff target lock in that vid ive seen it in other vids. sobek is just really good i dont think he cheats. i cant see anywhere where he would use a third party program.
IMO, in terms of PvP the less artificial 'help' the better. Just disable any target locking. Every targeting purely manual. That way, "formations" actually do have meaning. Like, those guys with the big-HAMSTER friggin' shields can actually stand in between the attacker and protect someone in a more realistic sense.
Nothing unmitigated, nothing unavoiable, nothing inevitable, and nothing AUTO in PvP.
I don't disagree. But there needs to be some order in the wild west first. "Of course I'll fight with a rubber sword while everyone else is cutting me to bits with metal swords. Because things should be fair like that."
Take away piercing, itc, and castrate stealth along with everything else so CWs can just freely shred TRs from behind shield on tab and t.neg. Cause that is fair right? You can replace CW/tabbed shield t.neg with your favorite class and op power/set up. Rage on and post hate and flames. It doesn't matter. People will use their own cheese to counter the cheese of others. But the very worst cheese of all is getting on the forums to qq about a class or paragon path while enjoying all of the wacked out wai benefits of ones own.
Wrong.
Current model: Tons of bugged/nerfed passives proccing all at once, including piercing damage. We should counter this with stealth reveal because that'll solve the ****ing problem.
Realistic model: Balanced/fixed passives proccing all at once, giving suitable damage. ITC is fixed, no stealth reveal because our players are smart enough to know how big a node is.
Stop complaining about things that don't matter.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
There is a possibility of compromise, though.
For example, Oppressive Darkness adds like maybe 600 damage per attack. I don't see anyone complaining about this one, and sometimes this does have uses against classes with extremely powerful defense/damage reduction. It would allow you to repeatedly land low~moderate range damage that is unaffected by mitigation -- in which case it becomes a limited counter against a certain type of defense. Yes, a limited counter, not an all-out buwahaha your defenses mean jackshid! counter like SE or SO.
Most everyone would probably realize that this is what the piercing damage was originally intended to be. When there's a certain opponent with either extreme overall DR, or extreme deflect, or BOTH, an attack type like piercing damage would allow you to reliably land at least a certain amount of constant low~moderate damage and not just become useless against that opponent.
But then, since the HRs and their bugged Piercing Blades (which used 40% damage factor based upon pre-mitigation damage values), for some reason the devs have continuously failed to keep this mind and went over the top with it. Soon, piercing damage became an easy way for them to "compensate" classes with bad designs or lacking features.
Honestly speaking, I'd say piercing damage is a matter of principle. The "if it goes through all defenses, then it should be low damage" principle just disappeared. We should have them bring this principle back, if the devs truly refuse to get rid of piercing altogether.
In that sense, these are the alternatives for SO I see:
(1) remove the "piercing" part, change it into a simple percentage of initiating power like how HR Piercing Blade is.
(2) keep the "piercing" part, but restrict it to much lower overall damage. It is ridiculous in that the initiating power like CoS can hit for only 700~800 damage because of target's defenses, and then the "extra damage" SO itself hits for like 3~4k... absurd.
(3) remove SO as a damage buff altogether, and switch it to some other form of buff, because come on, Sabos are now the only TRs that can permastealth, and at the same time hits the hardest as well
...personally I'd vote for (3). Sabos are almost unaffected by the shortened stealth duration. It's so easy to manage it. Stealth is the largest asset a TR holds both in terms of defense and offense... so then why should a TR type that has both the best defense and offense, also be able to hit the hardest?
Why stop at nerf requests? Ask for a removal. Sabos don't really need it. Other paths need damage buffs, not Sabos. As a matter of fact, if SO is to be replaced, I can't even think of what buffs they need. They've already got everything. Fastest skill recharge of all TRs.. strongest damage of all TRs... strongest defense of all TRs... easiest stealth management of all TRs... by god at least take away SO and give them the handicap of being "lowest damage" or something.
Pointless for me to point it out because I know minds won't change. Like I have said very often recently, pvp is becoming a matter of people protecting their own wack things while pointing the finger at others.
Finding TR isn't the issue, it's the damage output before you can find them that's the issue. I enjoy the challenge of finding TRs in stealth. I don't enjoy the 50k HP I lose from COS/SO spam in the 3 seconds it takes for me to get within range to hit them. I also don't like the 5 second downtime of ITC.
Right now, before TR gets any balance passes, the multiprocing from Shadowy Opportunity should be fixed. Shadowy Opportunity currently procs 2-3 times on every CoS hit from stealth, resulting in 2-3 times the DPS output a TR should have. Once that's fixed, then we'll see where TR lies. No doubt there will need to be some adjustments to survivability, however, I think overall people won't complain as much once the damage output isn't at ridiculous levels.
Logs of SO multiprocing (look at timestamps): http://pastebin.com/9LDiwbLy
On the note of balance passes, I think ITC should work like some HR dailies/encounters such as Forest Ghost and Ambush. While the encounter is active, there should be a countdown, so that the ITC duration doesn't overlap with the cooldown, so that you actually have 10 seconds of ITC downtime, instead of 5 seconds, for example.
Shadowy Opportunity should also be changed to normal damage rather than piercing damage, especially with the recent changes to armor penetration and tenacity.
Additionally, recovery should get a cap.
By the way, using broken/bugged mechanics such as Wheel of Elements: Fire, which is probably bugged, doesn't count as being a counter to a TR, especially since TRs can use it too.
I mostly want stealth reveal back so I can somewhat counter CoS spam. If they re-add stealth reveal on Cloud of Steel only, I'm happy. As it stands, properly spec'd and geared TRs are undefeatable in 1v1s right now, and can survive for ages in 1v2. The class doesn't need to be nerfed into the ground, it just needs some toning down so that other classes at least have a chance at finding an opening.
Very informative information indeed ....
And if your not a BIS Cw ....l2 live with it or .....
If specific classes can tie with BIS geared TR or kill him it's probably WAI. (and if you do premade you always have an option to send your TR against enemy TR for a close battle)
Another thing which you should keep in mind is that NWO is still mostly PvE game, so whenever you want to change something, you need to take in to account PvE aspects as well as majority of players who dont have BIS gear. PvE players (especially those who dont have BIS gear) would rage hard if they couldnt get in to dungeon party because suddenly their toon bacame subpar dps spec. (TR was already in bad spot a while ago and im pretty sure Devs dont want that to happen again)
If you dislike the current CoS spam with SO and would like to have it changed in to something else, you will have to suggest some kind of buffs to melee attacks that would affect dmg based on how far TR is from it's target.
For example, from my point of view balanced change could work would like:
SO does piercing dmg based on how far you are from your target. (1m = 100% additional piercing dmg. 60m (max TR range) = 10% additional piercing dmg - from current 75%)
This would be a buff for a melee builds which are a lot easier to counter and have long delay between attacks and pretty big nerf for those who stand at high range and have low delay between each attack.
It's not doing too much damage alone. Things add up.
Lurker's Assault +30% Damage
Invisible Infiltrator +20% Damage
Combat Advantage (15% Damage)
Feat Ambusher's Haste 25% Damage scaled to remaining stealth meter
Feat Flashing Blades 5% Damage scaled to missing stealth meter
Feat Vicious Pursuit 5% Damage
Heck, First Strike maybe??? +75% damage on first strike I dunno never tried.