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TRs, are too much in PvP
themgaic421
Member Posts: 15 Arc User
TRs are too much right now in PvP, deny it as much as you want, but we all know TR has way too much going for them.
Firstly there's the dodges, it quite easy to sync in the dodges with ItC and stealth refills, to become practically untouchable to your enemies, for sabos, that would be come out of stealth, ITC, use encounter for refill, re-enter, lose 15% of all cooldowns, come out, dodge dodge, dodge dodge, ItC, refill with encounter...
There's just no room for error, all the crying skilless TRs in previous mod 3-4, crying about dying as soon as they come out of stealth blah blah, now cryptic gave you a new re-worked TR, wit extremely little room for error, massive dps, not to mention you guys dont even need to spec into crit or armor pen feats anymore, you've basically been given this lazy amateur class that takes little to know effort to play, i'd know, ive kicked 18k players asses with my 9k TR, I'd suggest the following changes..
Reduce the dodges to 2-3.
Increase ItC CD time.
Increase internal CD of sabo's final feat.
Revoke first strike back to what it was.
SoD, shadowy opportunity, shocking execution, all need to respect players defenses, you don't spec into a tank just for some 9k pug TR, who has full blue gear, to say **** you and ignore it all.
lower the crit chance when in stealth, honestly, when you enter stealth you should just simply gain 10-20% more critical chance, critical chance is one of your primary stats to build around, this is completely getting in the way of that fact.
Deft strikes slow is way to effective, the duration is fine, but speed debuff us way too much, whatever its values is, please half it for the love of god...
Impact shots sadly need it's damage lowering in stealth, the damage loss per charge missing, needs to be increased and using it from stealth needs to go down to 1 charge equivalent.
I'm not butchering the class, makes me scoff when people say we just want the class useless again, don't be in denial, this class needs nerfing, so it actually takes skill, by that I mean at least, I'm not seeing 10k TRs topping the leaderboard, they should be struggling, that also leaves me with a final suggestion..
Nerf lashing blade damage, to be perfectly honest, the 50% bonus crit severity was all the buff it EVER needed to be viable in pvp, combine that with the sabo/executioner feats it does insane damage, if the first strike 60% bonus stays where it is, then lashing blade needs lowering by around 30%, infact all the single target attacks need a damage nerf, because the feats alone give such huge buffs to attacks, I had an 11k TR hit me for 21k with deft strike the other day, even without the obvious first strike buff that still did over 12k damage, and this was without a vorpal, this isn't even ment to be a nuke, and it performs at nuke quality, I think TRs were just short of balanced in mod 3-4, id say if the changes to TR were simply the lashing blade changes and 100% crit chance in stealth, the class would of been doing just fine right now, considering CoS before it's changes would of become a very effective pvp ability with 100% crit chance.
Firstly there's the dodges, it quite easy to sync in the dodges with ItC and stealth refills, to become practically untouchable to your enemies, for sabos, that would be come out of stealth, ITC, use encounter for refill, re-enter, lose 15% of all cooldowns, come out, dodge dodge, dodge dodge, ItC, refill with encounter...
There's just no room for error, all the crying skilless TRs in previous mod 3-4, crying about dying as soon as they come out of stealth blah blah, now cryptic gave you a new re-worked TR, wit extremely little room for error, massive dps, not to mention you guys dont even need to spec into crit or armor pen feats anymore, you've basically been given this lazy amateur class that takes little to know effort to play, i'd know, ive kicked 18k players asses with my 9k TR, I'd suggest the following changes..
Reduce the dodges to 2-3.
Increase ItC CD time.
Increase internal CD of sabo's final feat.
Revoke first strike back to what it was.
SoD, shadowy opportunity, shocking execution, all need to respect players defenses, you don't spec into a tank just for some 9k pug TR, who has full blue gear, to say **** you and ignore it all.
lower the crit chance when in stealth, honestly, when you enter stealth you should just simply gain 10-20% more critical chance, critical chance is one of your primary stats to build around, this is completely getting in the way of that fact.
Deft strikes slow is way to effective, the duration is fine, but speed debuff us way too much, whatever its values is, please half it for the love of god...
Impact shots sadly need it's damage lowering in stealth, the damage loss per charge missing, needs to be increased and using it from stealth needs to go down to 1 charge equivalent.
I'm not butchering the class, makes me scoff when people say we just want the class useless again, don't be in denial, this class needs nerfing, so it actually takes skill, by that I mean at least, I'm not seeing 10k TRs topping the leaderboard, they should be struggling, that also leaves me with a final suggestion..
Nerf lashing blade damage, to be perfectly honest, the 50% bonus crit severity was all the buff it EVER needed to be viable in pvp, combine that with the sabo/executioner feats it does insane damage, if the first strike 60% bonus stays where it is, then lashing blade needs lowering by around 30%, infact all the single target attacks need a damage nerf, because the feats alone give such huge buffs to attacks, I had an 11k TR hit me for 21k with deft strike the other day, even without the obvious first strike buff that still did over 12k damage, and this was without a vorpal, this isn't even ment to be a nuke, and it performs at nuke quality, I think TRs were just short of balanced in mod 3-4, id say if the changes to TR were simply the lashing blade changes and 100% crit chance in stealth, the class would of been doing just fine right now, considering CoS before it's changes would of become a very effective pvp ability with 100% crit chance.
Post edited by themgaic421 on
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Comments
Just answer with yes or no, please
these are very solid suggestions.altho i think you forgot to mention some op powers
but this can do for now
but devs wont listen coz its to long i sum it up a bit for them:
reduce dodges to 2 (same as they were before )
increase itc time:roughly for 5 sec this will get rid of perma immunity <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
revoke first strike to mod 4: 15% more dmg every 9 sec
SoD, shadowy opportunity, shocking execution-needs to respect defences
deft strike -cheap no skill shot with huge dmg up to 15k from stealth plus insane slow were u can even move slow need to be reworked
same if not worse with impact shot -its a ranged skill with insane dmg charges need to go to 1
sabos final feat- is making perma easyer then ever.needs 30 sec cooldown not every rotation ready.
lashing blade -70k from 13gs pug needs to go
and last and very important -auto crit needs to be removed
i hope this will get devs atention faster
The problem is non-TR players think they know the best what to change in a class they dont really play.
Besides obvious 1-shot thing which everyone know is broken, you propose your changes base on what? Because you feel like it? How can you tell something is "easy" to do as a TR when you have no real experience at all? PUGing with 15k parties? Really? You want to change entire class based on that? No offense but your post is nothing but another cry-tr post, which gives 0 valuable feedback.
I play an 22,5K GS TR myself. If i queue gauntlegrym for the PvP Match i fight against 22-24K GS GWFs that can't be killed. In the last 30 Minutes i fought against some of such GWFs again. He had 47K Life, plenty of Defense (3.300 Stat) and over 8.000 Power. I am an TR-Executioneer. I couldn't even bring him down to 50% of his Hitpoints and he dealt 5-10K Hits with every single strike.
I was slotted with First Strike and if i attack from stealth i ignore 25% of his resistance in additon which means i ignore like 51-52% of his total damage resistance. I dealt 3-10K Hits with my strongest attack while he easily killed me.
i know what you mean... i have a 4k gs tr that just destroys everyone and everything....lmao. your saying the same thngs that other classes have stated since mod 5, mostly by sw's and cw's, which is prob what you play with, ..oh, i forgot to mention, my tr actually can dodge 4xs but with my op powers it doubles to 8 dodges.. move on to another topic there ..
TRs are at a point where their GS doesn't really matter in combat. All of them offer wonderful utility to a team. My 15k WK TR with NO artifact equipment or Tenacity has 2v1'd executioners geared to the gills. I've also been instagibbed by 11k TRs.
I think the Devs have actually found a working venue in the current state of TRs - they essentially got a class right. Only issue is every other class is wrong and Empowered Astral shield is too stronk.
TRs arew supposed to be evasive, we had 2 dodges before and we were one of the slowest moving classes in NW even though it was supposed to be the other way.
Obviously this class is OP and needs to be nerfed.
-OP
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Nerf perma stealth and reduce some damage on single target skills.
I know what you are thinking, we are a single target dps class. Yes and no, its an mmo, TRs should be performing well in both pve and pvp.
If they dont change the high single target burst to more aoe abilities this class will continue to be broken in both pvp and pve.
Don't speak like you know what's best for TRs and balance when all you care about is that you get your butt kicked in PVP.
Actually, you probably should not speak of balance when all the "challenges" you face are simply AI, and therefore cannot really speak/defend for themselves even when some things are systematically broken.
Very frankly speaking, in whatever MMO you see, its actually natural, and to be expected, that AoE-based/ranged classes out DPS melees, when given similar skill level and gear. If a primarily single-target melee is doing up to same damage levels as a ranged class that's hitting 3~4 targets at a time, then its simply overboard. No excuses.
What's BS in PvP is just as much BS in PvE. Just because the mobs don't complain does not mean there isn't any problem.
OH MY! I see what you mean now. Those poor PVE monsters, suffering in silence all this time ... You're totally right, and wee need to do something about it
I have at least one of each class and I'm almost exclusively a PVE players, especially after M5. I hate the idea of cheap kills, no matter what end of the Lashing Blade I'm on.
You can't tell me Rogues are op in PVE, cause you might as well say Warlocks are op too. They're about the same when it comes to damage and survivability. You could argue that Clerics and Rangers are op too. But absolutely no one comes even close to CWs, whom have never been anything less than gods in PVE since the beginning. And that's fine - I love playing my CW, and I'll be very happy when my GWFs/GFs get a buff in the next module. My TR is my best geared characters, but my CW is my strongest, that's how it has always been.
Just, please, don't use PVE to prove PVP in unbalanced, because that's what's really BS. They have nothing to do with each other and should function separately.
No need to function separately at all, nor should it be. As a matter of fact the entire PvE experience is plain and simple bland, irregular, and plain broken in terms of balance and yes, this includes all other classes as well. Funny that you should mention it.
In a very simplistic sense NW PvE is riddled with problems such as zero challenge, zero difficulty, zero need for real coordination, zero tactics, zero variety and zero need for different functions/roles within a party -- which in the end it actually goes so far as to deny the very mission statement of "RPG"s -- ROLE playing games. Unfortunately ROLE means nothing in NW. Our PvE players have this simpleton-way of measuring class efficiency in DPS terms only and really, it's not hard to see why. PvE players in NW can't understand any concept of balance outside DPS because that's all the PvE needs in this game.
And guess where this whole mess rooted at -- a very poor PvE balance that is so cranked towards to the advantage of the players with that massive player damage + elementary level of difficulty.
...
With no intention of disrespect, very frankly speaking, I tend to feel sort of weird, with a "rolleyes" kind of attitude when players in this game call themselves "PvErs" -- because for me, that's like people playing single-player campaign modes in a FPS game and calling themselves the "l33T" in a FPS/EgoShooter genre. Back in my day, the "PvErs" of our time were people like Kungen and his Ensidia gang, who met challenge levels that was befitting to be called "PvE". To the PvErs of NW, the concept of "balance" as they perceive, is seemingly this easy way of self-gratification through mob-slaughter with massive DPS in a playing field with zero challenges - somewhat akin to a trick-shooter being proud of shooting fish in a barrel with a double-barrel shotgun, so to speak.
So please excuse me if I don't really seem to be impressed that you've used all classes, or how you play only PvE, or any of what you've mentioned, because it really doesn't make any difference to the fact that basically the current state of "PvE balance" you seem to be so fond of, is simply one of the most broken, easy-mode, baby-sitting gameplay I've seen in 20 years of MMORPG history. If you think that's all great and cool, and should not be touched, then hey, that's your opinion. You're entitled to it.
But to guys like me who've seen what great PvE balance in other games used to offer to all the gamers, the current PvE balance is simply broken as hell. Even Cryptic's own commercial debut game, the City of Heroes, used to have this awesome balance with difficulty and player combinations where the game was more than about just mass-DPS+AoE bombardment to slaughter mobs so easily. People back then used to object to giving so much DPS and power to the players which did nothing but dumb the game down.
But hey, if people nowadays enjoy "the dumber the better", and then decide to call THAT horrendous milkrun "PvE balance", then I really, really must be getting too old for games.
Joke aside. Yes, TRs are OP but there are also CWs with a pile of OP broken feats. DPS DCs with bugged DoT and Do'Urdens with bugged roots. TRs just happened to shine on the top of that. Once they get nerfed again - we will see PvP threads about other classes flooding the forums again. Well... maybe except for CWs. He said noone touches his CWs, do you know what I mean?
WTB Class Reroll please
Of course, this video certainly would/should not be required to handle the 20k GS, BiS gear TRs with top-level players behind the controls, because currently, practically everyone who has anything to say about this is complaining in the forums about how TRs are unbeatable and broken OP, and nigh impossible to defeat, or fend oneself against.
Yes, I know the (as described above) "BiS gear + skilled-player + operates in premades" TRs are impossible to beat. But frankly speaking, considering the amount of complaints in the forums I don't think anyone can deny there's also some serious L2P issues here.
Now please, don't take too much offense from the fact that I've mentioned "L2P", folks. The reason I'm mentioning this is because there is no way that ALL of those TRs giving people a hard time in various levels of PvP, are at such competent levels. There is also no way that ALL of those people complaining in the forums are doing things right and still losing. The way PvP is in any game, the absolute majority of TR players are average joes, and these guys can be beat -- or at the least, defended against.
That's why we probably need the better level of players giving specific advice to the forums in how to handle these average TRs. Usually those good players are only interested in the very high level of gameplay, that it seems they don't really bother explaining how they handle easier, lesser threats... but I think for the people who need help against TRs, those 'easier, lesser threats' are still way more than they can handle without practical advice.
But if they can start handling these average grade TRs better, I think that might solve a LOT of the frustrations across the board because in reality, these average joe TRs make up the majority = majority of TR complaints solved. So if a good advice can bring up the skill level of other average joes even for one notch above their current level, that alone could help a lot in facing TRs.
My 2 cents, sirs.
Its like playing a game with my 4 year old and he always gets the toy tank and I always get the toy scooter bike. "Oh you won again" *pats on the head and winks*.
Again - in PVE, rogues are fine, no more, nor less op than any other class that didn't get the nerf hammer recently. Sometimes I can see inexperienced PVP rogues perform miserably in PVE - dying or doing laughable damage.
That said, it's very frustrating when you've had a horrible day and you really just want to kill a lot of things, but the CW and the SW wipe everything out with an AoE before you can so much as stab someone. And then the GWF draws threat on the one remaining creature and it charges past your shadowy self and straight onto their sword.
damage meter only indicates how fast someone runs up to the trashmob and kills everything, probably in need of some attentention
what is wrong about beeing a single target monster?
in former days, other game, there was allways need of sincere single target damage dealer, because if you only had trash mob killer in your team you would have wiped all time, never get any hardmode done, nothing
example: yesterday i run VT, two TR´s 16k about, 2 warlocks, one cw
at the endfight not a single mob spawed, zero, the boss was killed too fast
imo thats has more value than any trash mob bashing cw that leads the peni..meter, btw imo CW´s lack in singel target damage , or did i meet the wrong CW´s a 100 times?
In the upcoming Mod 6 there will be alot of changes in pvp now if you will insist this selfish and nonsense issue may i ask your mother's kidneys and ovaries in exchange for you request?
I am sure exe is and sab probably is too, scoundrel is not, though, being behind comp geared/played gwf/dc/hr/cw/sw. With the alteration of stats and the new scoundrel feat they will improve in this I am thinking.
As a DC I can manage to dodge and avoid TRs attacks until they become visible. But often I am unable to predict or guess their location and they smoke me and bring me to under 10% of life. After that they usually manage to finish me off.
Plenty of AoE attacks and skills have red area warning, why shouldn't the TR smoke bomb also? It seems like a minor nerf that shouldn't bother TRs too much and it would give the rest of us that split second warning that could possibly save us from instant death.
The animation and application of the smoke to the area is instant, but there is at least a .5 sec delay or so until it applies its effects. With practice in reacting to it you can actually dodge out of it before it takes hold on you even though you are within the area. In PvE many an unknowing TR has stealthed and entered a pack of NPC's and used this power to find themselves promptly planted 6 feet under.
I'm not a "famous player" by any means but I did start a forum thread on that very topic not long ago.
Predictably, it went nowhere. In fact it hilariously turned into a thread of TRs discussing how to kill other players.
I've come to the conclusion that the high-end PVPers around here don't want to give advice to the newbs, because they play TRs themselves and they prefer having the cheap easy kills against clueless enemies rather than building up the PVP playerbase and being rewarded with more challenging matches.
They want their flesh-and-blood human enemies to be as easy as the AI NPC monsters that so many PVPers around here deride as being "too easy".
There's a difference between "I need some advice" and "Hold my hand".
The community around here usually prefers the latter. They want a staple, cookie-cutter rotation, build, and spec to play.
The problem is the TRs (May or may not include myself) who played this class when it was regarded as garbage and useless and stuck with it regardless of all the hate, figured out that TR is a lot more involved than a staple rotation.
Remember, we played back when there wasn't a "Roll your face across your encounters and win" build. We played when Lashing Blade did pitiful damage. Back when permastealth was something you had to consciously invest into and watch your cooldowns and dodge timers. And even then, all you obtained was being stealthed, not doing damage.
Now, you don't need to spec for permastealth. You don't need a specific off-hand. You don't need to roll a specific race with +2 Int, stack Recovery, or really anything. This is the easy-mode TR meta. Why people have a hard time playing TR in Mod 5 is beyond me. If you really need help, you're not fit to play. It's the equivalent of Mod 3 GWF.
Fighting against a TR isn't that hard either. The vast majority of TRs running around are using the same encounters, paragon, and passive spec. Look at what he does and counter it. It's that easy.
For a collaboration to counter TRs, you shouldn't be asking TRs. TR vs TR fights are incredibly boring and typically decided on the first hit. I've been countered and beaten into the ground so hard that my contribution was negligible by <20k builds.
For reference, I'm only about 16k GS and my Artifact weapon isn't maxed yet.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.