Stealth DOES have some drawbacks and while it is very good protection as well as a good damage boost it has weaknesses and there are ways to get a rogue while it is stealthed. Because taking damage still seems to interrupt stealth regen even if the rogue takes stuff that was supposed to prevent that, you can delay a rogue from slipping back into stealth if you keep up a stream of damage. Even a slight delay in regaining stealth can and in my case often does end up deadly. Secondly, if you are also a rogue and have cloud of steel and you hit another rogue with your daggers, that dagger will still be visible even when that rogue you hit stealths. the throwing daggers vanish after a short time so you have to make sure to replace them often with more hits but given how fast this power is, you can easily tag a stealthed rogue and keep taging it for the entire stealth duration. If I remember correctly, a ranger's arrows when they hit a rogue also remain visible when the rogue stealths for a short time. You can also daze, knock prone, freeze, or stun a rogue to keep them from stealthing. And if you have anything that holds a rogue still, it does not matter whether that rogue is stealthed or not, they are still screwed. If a rogue gets close to you while stealthed, there is a good chance they will pass close enough for you to see their health gage, rogues are mostly melee so they will need to get close a lot. Most attacks a rogue makes will instantly remove them from stealth after 1 hit and if you know anything about rogues you know that this is when you should start clobbering them so they don't get away.
Guardian fighters have something that makes them even harder to defeat while it is active than a rogue's stealth, their shield. It is often extremely hard to tell when a guardian fighter drops his shield but it is very obvious when a rogue's stealth is gone. Once this highly beneficial power ends, we have to deal with being a glaring target until we get our stealth back. Aoes also can still hit us and kill us whether we are stealthed or not.
One more way to detect a rogue in domination or gauntlgrym is to do what you are supposed to, stand on the platforms. Those platforms can be used as a burglar alarm of sorts and all you have to do to use it is watch the blue icon. The moment that icon starts to turn red, you have your rogue.
And there is one more very situational but little known way to detect a stealthed rogue but it only works if you are in a relatively quiet place, such as when you are trying to take a domination platform while no one else is there and you are standing still. Footsteps. You know that faint noise you make when you walk? Others make this sound too. I once was standing on platform 1 alone and witnessed a rogue stealth at the bottom of the staircase. I was already able to hear his footsteps while he was at the bottom of the staircase and they kept getting louder as he approached in stealth. I dodge rolled once I was sure he was close enough to hit me, he was indeed right next to me and ended up missing with his lashing blade.
So what you're saying that to catch a TR all you need is an infrared/xray sight, supersonic hearing and lightning speed. Bravo! Now someone call the Superman so we can get on with it.
As for real, are you even serious? Don't you tthink catching a single TR in stealth is requiring too much effort? Not like TR is defenseless outside stealth.
Not a single drawback found. Stealth increases both defensive and offensive powers and even mobility if you spec for it. Not like you need to take damage to activate it, for example.
TR is worthless without Stealth. Biggest burst comes from first attack with LB and specific feast + gear. Without the OP enchants you wont be even able to take half hp from enemy in lvl70 pvp. I could easily record TR pvp without the broken gear so you might start looking at what's broken instead of tunel vision on combat logs. Fix broken gear and bugs and you wont see any 1 shotting.
Zvieris, they are actually pretty vulnerable if you can get them to miss with their daze or stun. I'm not too worried about lashing blade if they are out of stealth, and I have **** for hp. And you don't have to be anything close to superman to catch a rogue in stealth, it's actually pretty easy and all classes will be able to and have utilized some of the tactics I mentioned to great effect. I have been screwed over hard by skilled and/or well built members of every class despite my ability to stealth. Secret: rogues are not immortal, all you need to do is have skill to best a rogue, if you don't have skill you won't do well in pvp no matter what class you are fighting. Rogues will be trying to hit you or your teammate in stealth so there's one clue as to what direction they are going. If they aren't trying to hit you in stealth that means they are running and you won that platform anyway so no need to go find them.
You know what takes even more effort to kill than a stealthed rogue? Still a guardian fighter with their shield up, and both of these classes are not immortal because of it. Ive seen plenty of op members of other classes and plenty of weak and/or unskilled rogues and guardian fighters.
you want to know what really makes you overpowered? skill, and it is usable by all classes. A rogue especially is defenseless **** without skill.
I think famous players of each class should team up and make practical tips, hints, pointers videos about "How to fight TRs".
Of course, this video certainly would/should not be required to handle the 20k GS, BiS gear TRs with top-level players behind the controls, because currently, practically everyone who has anything to say about this is complaining in the forums about how TRs are unbeatable and broken OP, and nigh impossible to defeat, or fend oneself against.
Yes, I know the (as described above) "BiS gear + skilled-player + operates in premades" TRs are impossible to beat. But frankly speaking, considering the amount of complaints in the forums I don't think anyone can deny there's also some serious L2P issues here.
Now please, don't take too much offense from the fact that I've mentioned "L2P", folks. The reason I'm mentioning this is because there is no way that ALL of those TRs giving people a hard time in various levels of PvP, are at such competent levels. There is also no way that ALL of those people complaining in the forums are doing things right and still losing. The way PvP is in any game, the absolute majority of TR players are average joes, and these guys can be beat -- or at the least, defended against.
That's why we probably need the better level of players giving specific advice to the forums in how to handle these average TRs. Usually those good players are only interested in the very high level of gameplay, that it seems they don't really bother explaining how they handle easier, lesser threats... but I think for the people who need help against TRs, those 'easier, lesser threats' are still way more than they can handle without practical advice.
But if they can start handling these average grade TRs better, I think that might solve a LOT of the frustrations across the board because in reality, these average joe TRs make up the majority = majority of TR complaints solved. So if a good advice can bring up the skill level of other average joes even for one notch above their current level, that alone could help a lot in facing TRs.
My 2 cents, sirs.
Thank you, I completely agree. People whine too much when the problem is often not the class they are fighting but that they did not fight that class in a skillful manner. Then these lazy people start begging for their opponent to be nerfed instead of just training and studying to become a more skilled combatant.
It would be lovely if those really awesome players would explain how to tackle the average rogue in addition to teaching people how to get the upper hand on a really smart rogue.
Zvieris, they are actually pretty vulnerable if you can get them to miss with their daze or stun. I'm not too worried about lashing blade if they are out of stealth, and I have **** for hp. And you don't have to be anything close to superman to catch a rogue in stealth, it's actually pretty easy and all classes will be able to and have utilized some of the tactics I mentioned to great effect. I have been screwed over hard by skilled and/or well built members of every class despite my ability to stealth. Secret: rogues are not immortal, all you need to do is have skill to best a rogue, if you don't have skill you won't do well in pvp no matter what class you are fighting. Rogues will be trying to hit you or your teammate in stealth so there's one clue as to what direction they are going. If they aren't trying to hit you in stealth that means they are running and you won that platform anyway so no need to go find them.
You know what takes even more effort to kill than a stealthed rogue? Still a guardian fighter with their shield up, and both of these classes are not immortal because of it. Ive seen plenty of op members of other classes and plenty of weak and/or unskilled rogues and guardian fighters.
you want to know what really makes you overpowered? skill, and it is usable by all classes. A rogue especially is defenseless **** without skill.
+1 completely agree with you.
People need to stop QQ, take a pause and think of a strategy to counter the opponent. Thats what we do with Roar GWF, Deflect GF, Icy ray CW, immortal DC. A good pvp'er for me is someone who adapte his playstyle depending the opponent he face.
I think it is wayyyy past time to stop pounding the old "tr is op in pvp". I see less TRs in pvp than ever and the class is less difficult to beat than ever in pvp. Give it a break. The only people who have room to qq at this point are the devoted players of SW- to qq for their class to be tuned up, not others to be tuned down.
Trickster Rogue now sits in the middle of a field with much greater parity between the classes than mod5. The crying has to stop, the class has already been nerfed while other classes turned up. I have some very good TR friends simply quit because they feel forced to one spec in pvp, one of them a guild leader I am trying to talk her into coming back. So TR has gone from having three viable pvp paths to- what some people feel is one. If things go further against the class it will be in crisis mode soon.
Beating TR comes down to L2P. All of the classes except sw are well equipped for this now. So stop the crying, please.
I think it is wayyyy past time to stop pounding the old "tr is op in pvp". I see less TRs in pvp than ever and the class is less difficult to beat than ever in pvp. Give it a break. The only people who have room to qq at this point are the devoted players of SW- to qq for their class to be tuned up, not others to be tuned down.
Trickster Rogue now sits in the middle of a field with much greater parity between the classes than mod5. The crying has to stop, the class has already been nerfed while other classes turned up. I have some very good TR friends simply quit because they feel forced to one spec in pvp, one of them a guild leader I am trying to talk her into coming back. So TR has gone from having three viable pvp paths to- what some people feel is one. If things go further against the class it will be in crisis mode soon.
Beating TR comes down to L2P. All of the classes except sw are well equipped for this now. So stop the crying, please.
I agree, I have a friend who is more experienced than me and a dungeon junkie. I am a pvp person myself but we both agree that we have been nerfed too far. I actually had been super excited about mod 6 for months and loved it other than the repetitiveness for the first 5 days. but for those 5 days I had been doing nothing but elemental evil level up missions. I was dismayed when my friend came back pissed and venting about the new mod saying all sorts of things. Such as that shadow of demise had been nerfed to the almost useless point, the new powers being poorly designed, stealth had been nerfed, survivability had been nerfed too far, saying monsters were absurdly hard in all level 70 campaign zones, Tiamat was impossible, striker classes were no longer very useful in dungeons, and all sorts of other stuff. I had not even known about all the nerfs he was describing yet because the only thing I had been fighting was lower than level 70 monsters in the "safe zones". I'd noticed that my survivability was ****ty and I was getting one hit killed by these basic monsters a lot but figured it had to do with gear. I was determined to see some good in this mod but the more and more stuff he showed me and the more severe nerfs he demonstrated, the more and more I began to swing. Over the course of the next several days, I started poking around the level 70 zones more(I was level 70 by this point) and tried mod 6 pvp. I also looked up the things he had told me. I began to find infuriating problems with this mod on my own at this point. Glitchs and bugs were everywhere I had observed that much. I looked at the forums and found several other mod 6 nerfs then tested these nerfs out, they were awful. One of the things I'd picked up reading online info was that recovery and armor pen were the only unnerfed stats, every other stat took entirely too much stacking to get it to go up even as little as 1%. sure enough, when I took a glance at my stats, the only ones I was able to get much out of were armor pen and recovery. This stat nerf made stacking power and movement speed, two things my build relies heavily on really difficult and extremely unrewarding. It took a hell of a lot, but I have gotten to the point where I absolutely hate this mod and would pay money for them just to load mod 5 and add to it in smaller ways instead of rush releasing such a poorly designed giant mod. there were some small things I liked about this new mod but nothing that was worth the cons that came with it.
I am infuriated by the hate TRs have gotten over the years, everytime people whine about our class and beg the developers to nerf us(instead of asking for reasonable buffs and balances for their class and becoming more skilled like they should)the developers usually end up dropping too big a nerf bat and messing our class up too much. Tanks and strikers are now very unevenly matched with this new mod too because of the nerfs we got and the buffs they got.
^^^ I wouldn't go so far as to say TRs are nerfed below other classes, but I think the diversity of viable TR builds is shrinking and that is always really bad news for a class. Now instead of just lashing that gf, you have to really outmaneuver him to beat him 1v1. It becomes a game of positioning, kind of a game of chess between two fairly equal classes. Imo that is what it should be. Not sure what the answer is in the end but I know people who don't realize the TR is behind them when they hear that swish sound, still yelling for nerfs, doesn't help.
^^^ I wouldn't go so far as to say TRs are nerfed below other classes, but I think the diversity of viable TR builds is shrinking and that is always really bad news for a class. Now instead of just lashing that gf, you have to really outmaneuver him to beat him 1v1. It becomes a game of positioning, kind of a game of chess between two fairly equal classes. Imo that is what it should be. Not sure what the answer is in the end but I know people who don't realize the TR is behind them when they hear that swish sound, still yelling for nerfs, doesn't help.
The only thing I disagree on is the gfs and trs being equal in mod 6 thing. I don't think gfs and trs are equal anymore. They were pretty equal in mod 5 though(gfs could have used a bit more defense/hp but that's about it). The guardian fighter was already doing a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of damage before and mod 6 just gave them +50% to all weapon damage and +20% to all other damage but made rogues proportionally more fragile. rogues now have an extremely hard time leaving stealth without getting murdered(stealth has been shortened as well so we are even more vulnerable) and this is not just true of fighting guardian fighters. Rogues should be fragile but that should not be the same thing as being a nerfed suicide striker like we are in mod 6.
As for lashing bladeing a guardian fighter, you need to be extremely careful with that be it mod 5 or mod 6. There was almost no way to take a gf down alone in one shot or even 2 if you were a rogue so you would actually have to be pretty strategic in mod 5(there are some rare exceptions). If you are skilled enough to see when a gf drops his shield, you could try to use lashing blade but it's risky. In mod 5 or mod 6 I would not advise opening with lashing blade on a gf, unless he is subjected to a cc that you know will keep him from raising his shield(frozen, dazed, picked up by entangle ect.). If you have significantly more damage than is normal of most rogues, you still need to make sure the shield is down but only then would you be capable of instakilling a gf with lashing blade(unless gf was already at low health). You'd be far better off opening with duelist's flurry to keep yourself from getting knocked prone and to wear down his shield.
I would not argue that trs are nerfed below any of the other striker classes but strikers do seem to be at a disadvantage in this mod and all strikers have just received nerfs.
The only thing I disagree on is the gfs and trs being equal in mod 6 thing. I don't think gfs and trs are equal anymore. They were pretty equal in mod 5 though(gfs could have used a bit more defense/hp but that's about it). The guardian fighter was already doing a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of damage before and mod 6 just gave them +50% to all weapon damage and +20% to all other damage but made rogues proportionally more fragile. rogues now have an extremely hard time leaving stealth without getting murdered(stealth has been shortened as well so we are even more vulnerable) and this is not just true of fighting guardian fighters. Rogues should be fragile but that should not be the same thing as being a nerfed suicide striker like we are in mod 6.
As for lashing bladeing a guardian fighter, you need to be extremely careful with that be it mod 5 or mod 6. There was almost no way to take a gf down alone in one shot or even 2 if you were a rogue so you would actually have to be pretty strategic in mod 5(there are some rare exceptions). If you are skilled enough to see when a gf drops his shield, you could try to use lashing blade but it's risky. In mod 5 or mod 6 I would not advise opening with lashing blade on a gf, unless he is subjected to a cc that you know will keep him from raising his shield(frozen, dazed, picked up by entangle ect.). If you have significantly more damage than is normal of most rogues, you still need to make sure the shield is down but only then would you be capable of instakilling a gf with lashing blade(unless gf was already at low health). You'd be far better off opening with duelist's flurry to keep yourself from getting knocked prone and to wear down his shield.
I would not argue that trs are nerfed below any of the other striker classes but strikers do seem to be at a disadvantage in this mod and all strikers have just received nerfs.
and thats where the problem lies. you should NOT be able to 1 shot a gf with or without his shield. hes a tank. play saboteur learn some skill and actually outplay him. its much more fun and much nicer than one hitting. btw one of my mains is a tr before i took a extended break so yes i do know what im talking about.
and thats where the problem lies. you should NOT be able to 1 shot a gf with or without his shield. hes a tank. play saboteur learn some skill and actually outplay him. its much more fun and much nicer than one hitting. btw one of my mains is a tr before i took a extended break so yes i do know what im talking about.
I never said you should be able to lashing blade a gf for a 1 shot kill(I even said they should have more hp/defenses), I was referring to the extremely rare top notch rogues that actually have enough damage to do that to a gf(there's a rogue named Curse that could do it), not me at least not yet(that would take some serious gear and/or an amazing build), and not the majority. I also am not too thrilled with saboteurs essentially saying executioners don't have skill or that we like things easy mode just because we are capable of one shot killing people. We have just as much potential for skill as a saboteur, we have different builds and different preferred tactics, that's all. If you need an example, there is an extremely skilled and powerful rogue executioner out there named Blacksheep that once fought a fully geared and skilled gf in a really drawn out long match(there's a video), he was able to instakill a lot of people(especially his fellow strikers which makes sense unless he is fighting a true equal) but even he could not instakill a guardian fighter of equal status and there was some obvious skill present on both sides of that fight. There is no reason why you can't have both really high damage and skill.
Don't take this to mean that I somehow think rogues should be able to 1 shot a tank or that more than like 1% or less even can(doesn't matter which mod). I was talking about using lashing blade period against a gf for most sentences in the paragraph I wrote in a previous post on lashing blade. My apologies I did not write clearer in that post.
"If you have significantly more damage than is normal of most rogues, you still need to make sure the shield is down but only then would you be capable of instakilling a gf with lashing blade(unless gf was already at low health)." This is the only sentence that was referring to successful instakills on tanks being possible rather than simply using lashing blade against a tank(without instakills).
I never said you should be able to lashing blade a gf for a 1 shot kill(I even said they should have more hp/defenses), I was referring to the rare rogues that actually have enough damage to do that to a gf(there's a rogue named Curse that could do it), not me at least not yet(that would take some serious gear), and not the majority. I also am not too thrilled with saboteurs essentially saying executioners don't have skill or that we like things easy mode just because we are capable of one shot killing people. We have just as much potential for skill as a saboteur, we have different builds and different preferred tactics, that's all. If you need an example, there is an extremely skilled and powerful rogue executioner out there named Blacksheep that once fought a fully geared and skilled gf in a really drawn out long match(there's a video), he was able to instakill a lot of people(especially his fellow strikers which makes sense unless he is fighting a true equal) but even he could not instakill a guardian fighter of equal status and there was some obvious skill present on both sides of that fight. There is no reason why you can't have both really high damage and skill.
Addressed to Blackxxwolf3:
Whoops, I got the class wrong, it had been a while since I saw that video, it was not a gf Blacksheep fought, it was a class that while still a tank, has fewer hp than a gf, it was a great weapon fighter. Here are some links if you want proof for whatever reason:
There are others too, Des is another example of a really skilled executioner rogue and Curse(though curse is a huge one shotter, he does have skill). I'm sure there are lots more, these names are just the best ones I know of so far. there are videos for both of these rogues too but I'll only post them if you actually want to see them, I figured I'd be pushing it with the first 3.
TRs are too much right now in PvP, deny it as much as you want, but we all know TR has way too much going for them.
Firstly there's the dodges, it quite easy to sync in the dodges with ItC and stealth refills, to become practically untouchable to your enemies, for sabos, that would be come out of stealth, ITC, use encounter for refill, re-enter, lose 15% of all cooldowns, come out, dodge dodge, dodge dodge, ItC, refill with encounter...
There's just no room for error, all the crying skilless TRs in previous mod 3-4, crying about dying as soon as they come out of stealth blah blah, now cryptic gave you a new re-worked TR, wit extremely little room for error, massive dps, not to mention you guys dont even need to spec into crit or armor pen feats anymore, you've basically been given this lazy amateur class that takes little to know effort to play, i'd know, ive kicked 18k players asses with my 9k TR, I'd suggest the following changes..
Reduce the dodges to 2-3.
Increase ItC CD time.
Increase internal CD of sabo's final feat.
Revoke first strike back to what it was.
SoD, shadowy opportunity, shocking execution, all need to respect players defenses, you don't spec into a tank just for some 9k pug TR, who has full blue gear, to say **** you and ignore it all.
lower the crit chance when in stealth, honestly, when you enter stealth you should just simply gain 10-20% more critical chance, critical chance is one of your primary stats to build around, this is completely getting in the way of that fact.
Deft strikes slow is way to effective, the duration is fine, but speed debuff us way too much, whatever its values is, please half it for the love of god...
Impact shots sadly need it's damage lowering in stealth, the damage loss per charge missing, needs to be increased and using it from stealth needs to go down to 1 charge equivalent.
I'm not butchering the class, makes me scoff when people say we just want the class useless again, don't be in denial, this class needs nerfing, so it actually takes skill, by that I mean at least, I'm not seeing 10k TRs topping the leaderboard, they should be struggling, that also leaves me with a final suggestion..
Nerf lashing blade damage, to be perfectly honest, the 50% bonus crit severity was all the buff it EVER needed to be viable in pvp, combine that with the sabo/executioner feats it does insane damage, if the first strike 60% bonus stays where it is, then lashing blade needs lowering by around 30%, infact all the single target attacks need a damage nerf, because the feats alone give such huge buffs to attacks, I had an 11k TR hit me for 21k with deft strike the other day, even without the obvious first strike buff that still did over 12k damage, and this was without a vorpal, this isn't even ment to be a nuke, and it performs at nuke quality, I think TRs were just short of balanced in mod 3-4, id say if the changes to TR were simply the lashing blade changes and 100% crit chance in stealth, the class would of been doing just fine right now, considering CoS before it's changes would of become a very effective pvp ability with 100% crit chance.
can a TR fight a cookie cutter CW? a perma root+invul HR? a DC that can tank+heal+kill? a GF who is a tanker and can dish tons of single damage? THE ANSWER IS NO... who do you think you are to demand this things? You need brain themgaic421 and company...
can a TR fight a cookie cutter CW? a perma root+invul HR? a DC that can tank+heal+kill? a GF who is a tanker and can dish tons of single damage? THE ANSWER IS NO... who do you think you are to demand this things? You need brain themgaic421 and company...
A really really skilled rogue actually could fight those things but it would be a challenging match for both participants and pretty evenly matched in mod 5. Most rogues along with most members of any class would not be able to do it alone. Mod 6 rogues would be hard pressed to compete with those things on an equal level.
why do u guys fight over necro threads? The OP was .. 4 months ago?
Bedlam: Creating chaos as a MI Exec TR Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
Whoops, I got the class wrong, it had been a while since I saw that video, it was not a gf Blacksheep fought, it was a class that while still a tank, has fewer hp than a gf, it was a great weapon fighter. Here are some links if you want proof for whatever reason:
There are others too, Des is another example of a really skilled executioner rogue and Curse(though curse is a huge one shotter, he does have skill). I'm sure there are lots more, these names are just the best ones I know of so far. there are videos for both of these rogues too but I'll only post them if you actually want to see them, I figured I'd be pushing it with the first 3.
These are based on outdated mods... would they be just as good now? Who knows.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
SYNERGY Alliance
0
drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
So what you're saying that to catch a TR all you need is an infrared/xray sight, supersonic hearing and lightning speed. Bravo! Now someone call the Superman so we can get on with it.
As for real, are you even serious? Don't you tthink catching a single TR in stealth is requiring too much effort? Not like TR is defenseless outside stealth.
I know a TR player, who told me, that when he PvPs he turns off all but the fx volume. He wants to her footsteps. I have said all along that we are NOT as invisible as some of us, and you, may think. It is not like anyone is going to turn down their volume so they can hear a TR, let alone pay attention enough to notice little knives or arrows floating by you. Some people would rather kvetch about things... because they want it to be easier.
I once played against a Grandmaster SW, who was clearly using these tricks to find me. He killed me, while in stealth and not with n AoE, at lest 10 times. It got to the point where I would run from him... lol.
Sadly dewwhiskers just let the veritable "cat of out the bag".
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
SYNERGY Alliance
0
drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
I think it is wayyyy past time to stop pounding the old "tr is op in pvp". I see less TRs in pvp than ever and the class is less difficult to beat than ever in pvp. Give it a break. The only people who have room to qq at this point are the devoted players of SW- to qq for their class to be tuned up, not others to be tuned down.
Trickster Rogue now sits in the middle of a field with much greater parity between the classes than mod5. The crying has to stop, the class has already been nerfed while other classes turned up. I have some very good TR friends simply quit because they feel forced to one spec in pvp, one of them a guild leader I am trying to talk her into coming back. So TR has gone from having three viable pvp paths to- what some people feel is one. If things go further against the class it will be in crisis mode soon.
Beating TR comes down to L2P. All of the classes except sw are well equipped for this now. So stop the crying, please.
Yes........
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
SYNERGY Alliance
0
drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
its always these WK paragon ppl that are clueless and brainlessly defend their OP calss
every.single.time
WK = pug paragon for clueless imbeciles
regards
Meh...
I play a Whisperknife because of the principle behind the build. I am a man who plays the way he feels IRL. I do not like being sneaky as ****... I like having you know how you were killed and by whom. Just like the fact that I will never choose AB, I will never play a Master Infiltrator. You will get the hard truth from me or I will die trying to deliver it.
I will always take the path that is not the easiest to follow... though that does not mean I have not considered going to the Sab tree.
Does that mean I am a clueless imbecile? Not to my knowledge, but I am sorry you feel that you are. For as I have said many times before... what you are trying to say to me says more about your feelings about yourself.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
These are based on outdated mods... would they be just as good now? Who knows.
Well most of these kind of skilled people would have a harder time in mod 6(because mod 6 is garbage) but in mod 5 absolutely, they would be just as good. Plus just because these are people from older mods does not mean you can't use any of their tricks or learn from them. You can't use their exact same feats or some of their powers in the exact same way(some powers have changed a lot since older mods, some have not) as before, but most of my best knowledge and tricks came from these kind of older players and many of these tricks still work.
The only thing I disagree on is the gfs and trs being equal in mod 6 thing. I don't think gfs and trs are equal anymore. They were pretty equal in mod 5 though(gfs could have used a bit more defense/hp but that's about it). The guardian fighter was already doing a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of damage before and mod 6 just gave them +50% to all weapon damage and +20% to all other damage but made rogues proportionally more fragile. rogues now have an extremely hard time leaving stealth without getting murdered(stealth has been shortened as well so we are even more vulnerable) and this is not just true of fighting guardian fighters. Rogues should be fragile but that should not be the same thing as being a nerfed suicide striker like we are in mod 6.
As for lashing bladeing a guardian fighter, you need to be extremely careful with that be it mod 5 or mod 6. There was almost no way to take a gf down alone in one shot or even 2 if you were a rogue so you would actually have to be pretty strategic in mod 5(there are some rare exceptions). If you are skilled enough to see when a gf drops his shield, you could try to use lashing blade but it's risky. In mod 5 or mod 6 I would not advise opening with lashing blade on a gf, unless he is subjected to a cc that you know will keep him from raising his shield(frozen, dazed, picked up by entangle ect.). If you have significantly more damage than is normal of most rogues, you still need to make sure the shield is down but only then would you be capable of instakilling a gf with lashing blade(unless gf was already at low health). You'd be far better off opening with duelist's flurry to keep yourself from getting knocked prone and to wear down his shield.
I would not argue that trs are nerfed below any of the other striker classes but strikers do seem to be at a disadvantage in this mod and all strikers have just received nerfs.
I'm not going to get into an argument about if GF's and TR's are equal now. You need to go into builds and gear and everything else. Both of these classes have been nerfed to hell and back many times before and really it serves no constructive purpose for players of one to complain about the other. Lets agree that both classes are fairly well situated for the time being with the exception that TR could really use more viable build options. Lets hope that most people can agree to that and the devs can see that and none of us get nerfed again. Because I really do think there is more parity now among the classes in pvp than at any point since I started playing this game.
I always get sad when I look at the new posts and can't find anything interesting. So I usually end up searching through dead threads with more interesting topics and bringing them back into modern discussion.
I know a TR player, who told me, that when he PvPs he turns off all but the fx volume. He wants to her footsteps. I have said all along that we are NOT as invisible as some of us, and you, may think. It is not like anyone is going to turn down their volume so they can hear a TR, let alone pay attention enough to notice little knives or arrows floating by you. Some people would rather kvetch about things... because they want it to be easier.
I once played against a Grandmaster SW, who was clearly using these tricks to find me. He killed me, while in stealth and not with n AoE, at lest 10 times. It got to the point where I would run from him... lol.
Sadly dewwhiskers just let the veritable "cat of out the bag".
The whole thing is situational awareness. Every dom map offers extensive lines of sight which works to the disadvantage of a class meant to sneak up on you. If you keep your head on a swivel you will see that TR in the distance going into stealth. Things are just common sense. How long will it take for him to get to you from when he went into stealth? Timing. TIMING. Nub TRs are easy to bait that way. You see him coming, see him stealth, you know how long it will take for him to get to you. You set up your encounter to fire it off when he should be right at you. Stealth is not even an issue. ITC is far more of an issue. One shotting from a TR should not be an issue given the massive hp. Even in mod 5, cw has shield, gf has shield, hr has fox cunning, dc has dc ( :P ), gwf can be kinda screwed and sw was just screwed period.
Comments
Read my above post.
So what you're saying that to catch a TR all you need is an infrared/xray sight, supersonic hearing and lightning speed. Bravo! Now someone call the Superman so we can get on with it.
As for real, are you even serious? Don't you tthink catching a single TR in stealth is requiring too much effort? Not like TR is defenseless outside stealth.
Not a single drawback found. Stealth increases both defensive and offensive powers and even mobility if you spec for it. Not like you need to take damage to activate it, for example.
You know what takes even more effort to kill than a stealthed rogue? Still a guardian fighter with their shield up, and both of these classes are not immortal because of it. Ive seen plenty of op members of other classes and plenty of weak and/or unskilled rogues and guardian fighters.
you want to know what really makes you overpowered? skill, and it is usable by all classes. A rogue especially is defenseless **** without skill.
Thank you, I completely agree. People whine too much when the problem is often not the class they are fighting but that they did not fight that class in a skillful manner. Then these lazy people start begging for their opponent to be nerfed instead of just training and studying to become a more skilled combatant.
It would be lovely if those really awesome players would explain how to tackle the average rogue in addition to teaching people how to get the upper hand on a really smart rogue.
+1 completely agree with you.
People need to stop QQ, take a pause and think of a strategy to counter the opponent. Thats what we do with Roar GWF, Deflect GF, Icy ray CW, immortal DC. A good pvp'er for me is someone who adapte his playstyle depending the opponent he face.
Trickster Rogue now sits in the middle of a field with much greater parity between the classes than mod5. The crying has to stop, the class has already been nerfed while other classes turned up. I have some very good TR friends simply quit because they feel forced to one spec in pvp, one of them a guild leader I am trying to talk her into coming back. So TR has gone from having three viable pvp paths to- what some people feel is one. If things go further against the class it will be in crisis mode soon.
Beating TR comes down to L2P. All of the classes except sw are well equipped for this now. So stop the crying, please.
I agree, I have a friend who is more experienced than me and a dungeon junkie. I am a pvp person myself but we both agree that we have been nerfed too far. I actually had been super excited about mod 6 for months and loved it other than the repetitiveness for the first 5 days. but for those 5 days I had been doing nothing but elemental evil level up missions. I was dismayed when my friend came back pissed and venting about the new mod saying all sorts of things. Such as that shadow of demise had been nerfed to the almost useless point, the new powers being poorly designed, stealth had been nerfed, survivability had been nerfed too far, saying monsters were absurdly hard in all level 70 campaign zones, Tiamat was impossible, striker classes were no longer very useful in dungeons, and all sorts of other stuff. I had not even known about all the nerfs he was describing yet because the only thing I had been fighting was lower than level 70 monsters in the "safe zones". I'd noticed that my survivability was ****ty and I was getting one hit killed by these basic monsters a lot but figured it had to do with gear. I was determined to see some good in this mod but the more and more stuff he showed me and the more severe nerfs he demonstrated, the more and more I began to swing. Over the course of the next several days, I started poking around the level 70 zones more(I was level 70 by this point) and tried mod 6 pvp. I also looked up the things he had told me. I began to find infuriating problems with this mod on my own at this point. Glitchs and bugs were everywhere I had observed that much. I looked at the forums and found several other mod 6 nerfs then tested these nerfs out, they were awful. One of the things I'd picked up reading online info was that recovery and armor pen were the only unnerfed stats, every other stat took entirely too much stacking to get it to go up even as little as 1%. sure enough, when I took a glance at my stats, the only ones I was able to get much out of were armor pen and recovery. This stat nerf made stacking power and movement speed, two things my build relies heavily on really difficult and extremely unrewarding. It took a hell of a lot, but I have gotten to the point where I absolutely hate this mod and would pay money for them just to load mod 5 and add to it in smaller ways instead of rush releasing such a poorly designed giant mod. there were some small things I liked about this new mod but nothing that was worth the cons that came with it.
I am infuriated by the hate TRs have gotten over the years, everytime people whine about our class and beg the developers to nerf us(instead of asking for reasonable buffs and balances for their class and becoming more skilled like they should)the developers usually end up dropping too big a nerf bat and messing our class up too much. Tanks and strikers are now very unevenly matched with this new mod too because of the nerfs we got and the buffs they got.
The only thing I disagree on is the gfs and trs being equal in mod 6 thing. I don't think gfs and trs are equal anymore. They were pretty equal in mod 5 though(gfs could have used a bit more defense/hp but that's about it). The guardian fighter was already doing a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of damage before and mod 6 just gave them +50% to all weapon damage and +20% to all other damage but made rogues proportionally more fragile. rogues now have an extremely hard time leaving stealth without getting murdered(stealth has been shortened as well so we are even more vulnerable) and this is not just true of fighting guardian fighters. Rogues should be fragile but that should not be the same thing as being a nerfed suicide striker like we are in mod 6.
As for lashing bladeing a guardian fighter, you need to be extremely careful with that be it mod 5 or mod 6. There was almost no way to take a gf down alone in one shot or even 2 if you were a rogue so you would actually have to be pretty strategic in mod 5(there are some rare exceptions). If you are skilled enough to see when a gf drops his shield, you could try to use lashing blade but it's risky. In mod 5 or mod 6 I would not advise opening with lashing blade on a gf, unless he is subjected to a cc that you know will keep him from raising his shield(frozen, dazed, picked up by entangle ect.). If you have significantly more damage than is normal of most rogues, you still need to make sure the shield is down but only then would you be capable of instakilling a gf with lashing blade(unless gf was already at low health). You'd be far better off opening with duelist's flurry to keep yourself from getting knocked prone and to wear down his shield.
I would not argue that trs are nerfed below any of the other striker classes but strikers do seem to be at a disadvantage in this mod and all strikers have just received nerfs.
I never said you should be able to lashing blade a gf for a 1 shot kill(I even said they should have more hp/defenses), I was referring to the extremely rare top notch rogues that actually have enough damage to do that to a gf(there's a rogue named Curse that could do it), not me at least not yet(that would take some serious gear and/or an amazing build), and not the majority. I also am not too thrilled with saboteurs essentially saying executioners don't have skill or that we like things easy mode just because we are capable of one shot killing people. We have just as much potential for skill as a saboteur, we have different builds and different preferred tactics, that's all. If you need an example, there is an extremely skilled and powerful rogue executioner out there named Blacksheep that once fought a fully geared and skilled gf in a really drawn out long match(there's a video), he was able to instakill a lot of people(especially his fellow strikers which makes sense unless he is fighting a true equal) but even he could not instakill a guardian fighter of equal status and there was some obvious skill present on both sides of that fight. There is no reason why you can't have both really high damage and skill.
Don't take this to mean that I somehow think rogues should be able to 1 shot a tank or that more than like 1% or less even can(doesn't matter which mod). I was talking about using lashing blade period against a gf for most sentences in the paragraph I wrote in a previous post on lashing blade. My apologies I did not write clearer in that post.
"If you have significantly more damage than is normal of most rogues, you still need to make sure the shield is down but only then would you be capable of instakilling a gf with lashing blade(unless gf was already at low health)." This is the only sentence that was referring to successful instakills on tanks being possible rather than simply using lashing blade against a tank(without instakills).
Addressed to Blackxxwolf3:
Whoops, I got the class wrong, it had been a while since I saw that video, it was not a gf Blacksheep fought, it was a class that while still a tank, has fewer hp than a gf, it was a great weapon fighter. Here are some links if you want proof for whatever reason:
That gwf battle I mentioned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW06_FeV5eo
Another video on skill vs gs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXwZUBaV9p4
A video on pvp against more average people by the looks of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6nLETM70AI
There are others too, Des is another example of a really skilled executioner rogue and Curse(though curse is a huge one shotter, he does have skill). I'm sure there are lots more, these names are just the best ones I know of so far. there are videos for both of these rogues too but I'll only post them if you actually want to see them, I figured I'd be pushing it with the first 3.
can a TR fight a cookie cutter CW? a perma root+invul HR? a DC that can tank+heal+kill? a GF who is a tanker and can dish tons of single damage? THE ANSWER IS NO... who do you think you are to demand this things? You need brain themgaic421 and company...
A really really skilled rogue actually could fight those things but it would be a challenging match for both participants and pretty evenly matched in mod 5. Most rogues along with most members of any class would not be able to do it alone. Mod 6 rogues would be hard pressed to compete with those things on an equal level.
Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene
Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice
Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee
Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
I'm a necromancer, I bring threads back from the dead.
These are based on outdated mods... would they be just as good now? Who knows.
I know a TR player, who told me, that when he PvPs he turns off all but the fx volume. He wants to her footsteps. I have said all along that we are NOT as invisible as some of us, and you, may think. It is not like anyone is going to turn down their volume so they can hear a TR, let alone pay attention enough to notice little knives or arrows floating by you. Some people would rather kvetch about things... because they want it to be easier.
I once played against a Grandmaster SW, who was clearly using these tricks to find me. He killed me, while in stealth and not with n AoE, at lest 10 times. It got to the point where I would run from him... lol.
Sadly dewwhiskers just let the veritable "cat of out the bag".
Yes........
Meh...
I play a Whisperknife because of the principle behind the build. I am a man who plays the way he feels IRL. I do not like being sneaky as ****... I like having you know how you were killed and by whom. Just like the fact that I will never choose AB, I will never play a Master Infiltrator. You will get the hard truth from me or I will die trying to deliver it.
I will always take the path that is not the easiest to follow... though that does not mean I have not considered going to the Sab tree.
Does that mean I am a clueless imbecile? Not to my knowledge, but I am sorry you feel that you are. For as I have said many times before... what you are trying to say to me says more about your feelings about yourself.
Well most of these kind of skilled people would have a harder time in mod 6(because mod 6 is garbage) but in mod 5 absolutely, they would be just as good. Plus just because these are people from older mods does not mean you can't use any of their tricks or learn from them. You can't use their exact same feats or some of their powers in the exact same way(some powers have changed a lot since older mods, some have not) as before, but most of my best knowledge and tricks came from these kind of older players and many of these tricks still work.
I'm not going to get into an argument about if GF's and TR's are equal now. You need to go into builds and gear and everything else. Both of these classes have been nerfed to hell and back many times before and really it serves no constructive purpose for players of one to complain about the other. Lets agree that both classes are fairly well situated for the time being with the exception that TR could really use more viable build options. Lets hope that most people can agree to that and the devs can see that and none of us get nerfed again. Because I really do think there is more parity now among the classes in pvp than at any point since I started playing this game.
Ya, and the last many posts here have been really instructive and interesting. I hope it keeps up.
The whole thing is situational awareness. Every dom map offers extensive lines of sight which works to the disadvantage of a class meant to sneak up on you. If you keep your head on a swivel you will see that TR in the distance going into stealth. Things are just common sense. How long will it take for him to get to you from when he went into stealth? Timing. TIMING. Nub TRs are easy to bait that way. You see him coming, see him stealth, you know how long it will take for him to get to you. You set up your encounter to fire it off when he should be right at you. Stealth is not even an issue. ITC is far more of an issue. One shotting from a TR should not be an issue given the massive hp. Even in mod 5, cw has shield, gf has shield, hr has fox cunning, dc has dc ( :P ), gwf can be kinda screwed and sw was just screwed period.