There's a difference between "I need some advice" and "Hold my hand".
The community around here usually prefers the latter. They want a staple, cookie-cutter rotation, build, and spec to play.
The problem is the TRs (May or may not include myself) who played this class when it was regarded as garbage and useless and stuck with it regardless of all the hate, figured out that TR is a lot more involved than a staple rotation.
Remember, we played back when there wasn't a "Roll your face across your encounters and win" build. We played when Lashing Blade did pitiful damage. Back when permastealth was something you had to consciously invest into and watch your cooldowns and dodge timers. And even then, all you obtained was being stealthed, not doing damage.
Now, you don't need to spec for permastealth. You don't need a specific off-hand. You don't need to roll a specific race with +2 Int, stack Recovery, or really anything. This is the easy-mode TR meta. Why people have a hard time playing TR in Mod 5 is beyond me. If you really need help, you're not fit to play. It's the equivalent of Mod 3 GWF.
Fighting against a TR isn't that hard either. The vast majority of TRs running around are using the same encounters, paragon, and passive spec. Look at what he does and counter it. It's that easy.
For a collaboration to counter TRs, you shouldn't be asking TRs. TR vs TR fights are incredibly boring and typically decided on the first hit. I've been countered and beaten into the ground so hard that my contribution was negligible by <20k builds.
For reference, I'm only about 16k GS and my Artifact weapon isn't maxed yet.
The query wasn't about how to play TR, but how to counter TRs.
And this is the type of response that feeds into the notion that the PVPers around here only want easy kills by refusing to give advice to the newbs. Your response is basically "L2P". Fine, people need to learn to play. That is one reason why they come to the forums, to get advice at how to become better. What is your advice? "Look at what he does and counter it". Well DUH. The whole POINT is learning about the details.
The query wasn't about how to play TR, but how to counter TRs.
And this is the type of response that feeds into the notion that the PVPers around here only want easy kills by refusing to give advice to the newbs. Your response is basically "L2P". Fine, people need to learn to play. That is one reason why they come to the forums, to get advice at how to become better. What is your advice? "Look at what he does and counter it". Well DUH. The whole POINT is learning about the details.
No, this is the type of response that feeds into the notion that we don't want to hold your hand.
How did people counter TRs before? We didn't always have fore-knowledge. In fact, we had to figure it out. TRs learned how they were being countered and then adapted. The cycle goes back and forth nearly indefinitely.
It's not as simple as a cookie-cutter explanation that you can immediately apply, it's learning the finer points of the game and PvP in general. If you're so inept that you're completely incapable of analyzing a situation and adapting to it, maybe crying about not getting help shouldn't be your first concern.
This isn't a career or a life or death situation, invest the time to get better.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
No, this is the type of response that feeds into the notion that we don't want to hold your hand.
How did people counter TRs before? We didn't always have fore-knowledge. In fact, we had to figure it out. TRs learned how they were being countered and then adapted. The cycle goes back and forth nearly indefinitely.
It's not as simple as a cookie-cutter explanation that you can immediately apply, it's learning the finer points of the game and PvP in general. If you're so inept that you're completely incapable of analyzing a situation and adapting to it, maybe crying about not getting help shouldn't be your first concern.
Sounds nice on the paper lets test it in reality.
Tr 15k gs good player using right build either itc-bloodbath-pick one-reset encounter feat-itc duelist flurry etc etc-, or why not lashing-shadow of doom+bile or plague+pick one etc etc or just daze to death.
Add to that 4 dodges that takes you compleatly out of range followed by hide now try to catch a tr rolling 2more times right after entering hide random direction.
A 15k Tr will own anything but bis geared dc hr or cw rest wont matter he will own then nm gs and stand a very good chanse of killing the others also but can still loose.
Now put a 15k gs of any class against a 15 or bis geared Tr and the result is 100% loss for non Trs.
Other classes depend on playing faultless while Tr will only loose if he screws up and even then he has itc or dodges to save his butt+ lets not forget increadible movement only dreamed of by other classes.
You cant beat a good tr with a good build because he has all the things that can counter you but you have nothing to counter him from attacking you.
The fight is rigged from the start Trs has to much defencive capabilitys and still the enourmous dps either as exe with exteme burst or as dotts with sod and bloodbath.
Its not a l2p issue unless I face inferior Trs with no clue how to play the class.
This has been proven over and over again and there are tons of vidios that showes what happend when you face a good tr even with 3-1.
Tr in pve fin tr in pvp is as broken as any class in any pvp game ever has been its not even a challange to play tr in pvp its pure godmode and slaughter......
Tr 15k gs good player using right build either itc-bloodbath-pick one-reset encounter feat-itc duelist flurry etc etc-, or why not lashing-shadow of doom+bile or plague+pick one etc etc or just daze to death.
Add to that 4 dodges that takes you compleatly out of range followed by hide now try to catch a tr rolling 2more times right after entering hide random direction.
A 15k Tr will own anything but bis geared dc hr or cw rest wont matter he will own then nm gs and stand a very good chanse of killing the others also but can still loose.
Now put a 15k gs of any class against a 15 or bis geared Tr and the result is 100% loss for non Trs.
Other classes depend on playing faultless while Tr will only loose if he screws up and even then he has itc or dodges to save his butt+ lets not forget increadible movement only dreamed of by other classes.
You cant beat a good tr with a good build because he has all the things that can counter you but you have nothing to counter him from attacking you.
The fight is rigged from the start Trs has to much defencive capabilitys and still the enourmous dps either as exe with exteme burst or as dotts with sod and bloodbath.
Its not a l2p issue unless I face inferior Trs with no clue how to play the class.
This has been proven over and over again and there are tons of vidios that showes what happend when you face a good tr even with 3-1.
Tr in pve fin tr in pvp is as broken as any class in any pvp game ever has been its not even a challange to play tr in pvp its pure godmode and slaughter......
So, long story short:
TR is absolute god-mode ****, no one can ever beat TRs unless the TR is playing bad. Because TR is invulnerable to attack.
The problem isn't that TR is impossible to beat. The problem is you already gave up.
I'm a 16k WK. You know, that paragon path that's been **** ever since it came out? I've been wrecked by nearly every class (Exception is SW because lolbalance). It may have been that I was playing bad but even after adapting, they either straight up won or made the kill so difficult to work for that it's not worth the effort in the grand-scope of things.
it's not impossible. You're just acting like a *****.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
it's not impossible. You're just acting like a *****
You clearly are clueless to the extent of woundering if you even pvp.
My Hr is 23kgs and i beat most Tr simply because am better geared and have tons of more experiance.
However when I face a simular Tr am dead in seconds and with absolutly no way of avoiding it nm what I do or what abilitys I use.
Bis Tr that use broken build/mechanics are immortals against other classes if you dont know that you never faced one never played another class against them or never watched the high end premades where Tr kills the most experianced highest gs player there is 1-2.
I played 1000nd of pvp matches and 100nds since module 5 I never gave up but neither did I EVER accpept that Tr can rule the way they do
Now go get some experiance so you at least have a clue what your talking about then come back mkay.....
My Hr is 23kgs and i beat most Tr simply because am better geared and have tons of more experiance.
However when I face a simular Tr am dead in seconds and with absolutly no way of avoiding it nm what I do or what abilitys I use.
Thanks for proving my point: it's not impossible.
Honestly, I could say the same for HR.
Bis Tr that use broken build/mechanics are immortals against other classes if you dont know that you never faced one never played another class against them or never watched the high end premades where Tr kills the most experianced highest gs player there is 1-2.
Do you cry like this in every mod?
Every mod had a class that simply overshadowed everyone else. The only problem is that now it's TR. I don't remember this much crying when HR, CW, or even GWF was in this position.
I'm not going to say that TR doesn't have a lot of problems. The Devs reached out for feedback and those of us that actually knew the class were drowned out by posts like yours:
OMG TR IS SO OP THEY 1-SHOT THE WHOLE MAP WITH LASHING BLADE WHILE AFK PLS NERF STEALTH AND PERMADAZE
And to date, every nerf was either unnecessary or wrongly placed.
You're doing a good job for your community.
Thanks for proving my point: it's not impossible.
Honestly, I could say the same for HR
.
But that would be a lie....
Do you cry like this in every mod?
Every mod had a class that simply overshadowed everyone else. The only problem is that now it's TR. I don't remember this much crying when HR, CW, or even GWF was in this position.
You remember correct there never been anything like Trs in NWs short pvp history not even close, gwf at its hights was a trainwreck incommming and dominated but never to the extent the Trs does today. 2-3 gwfs in a match was common not as it is with trs 4-5.
I probably played that many during Mod 4 when CW/HR was on top. You know, back when WK wasn't good at anything, even questing for campaigns.
Far better then my gf which i played instead of my hr in module 4.
I'm gonna let the HR tell me to get experience on a class he doesn't play or understand.
Ok.
If I say Tr is completely broken and you say its not guess who knows the class best. Take a look at forums it might give you a clue. But then again if you still defend Tr its not much hope for ya is there....
the truth is that everyone in this forum protect their ****s until they are the only one to have them
storm spell can multiproc and crit...wai
cw shield mitigate piercing and cant be reduced by armor pen...wai
tr got perma daze .... wai
hr got undodgable roots....wai
i almost forgot...dc can bring people full hp 5 times in a row while receiving no damage...must be wai
Ok, here's your logic:
My TR is 16kgs and i beat most HR simply because am better geared and have tons of more experiance.
However when I face a simular HR am dead in seconds and with absolutly no way of avoiding it nm what I do or what abilitys I use.
You remember correct there never been anything like Trs in NWs short pvp history not even close, gwf at its hights was a trainwreck incommming and dominated but never to the extent the Trs does today. 2-3 gwfs in a match was common not as it is with trs 4-5.
So the quantity of classes in a match is your problem?
Ok. Seemed to me like just having a TR on the enemy team was the problem. Now it's only a problem if it's 2-3 per team.
If I say Tr is completely broken and you say its not guess who knows the class best. Take a look at forums it might give you a clue. But then again if you still defend Tr its not much hope for ya is there....
I never said TR wasn't broken. That's another problem you have.
TR needs some fixes but they're nowhere near as bad as you're saying. If I had to go by the forums, I'd assume that:
A TR instantly perma-dazes everyone on the other team and one-shots them with Lashing Blade from 200km away. They also have 500k HP and 100% Deflect with 938247239847% Severity as well as 900 dodges. Oh and they also have persistent Bloodbath running.
That's the difference between believing forum whining and actually playing the game
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Ok, here's your logic:
My TR is 16kgs and i beat most HR simply because am better geared and have tons of more experiance.
However when I face a similar HR am dead in seconds and with absolutly no way of avoiding it nm what I do or what abilitys I use.
That's how stupid you sound.
Here is how stupid you actually ARE!
You say you beat most Hrs with LOWER gs then you that are inexperienced and when you face HRs in your skill lvl with same gs your dead nm what.
Now what I said was that to beat a TR he must either be vastly inferior in skill OR gs preferable both.
A 16k gs well played Tr can beat any HR no matter gear or skill but a 16k HR cant even dent a well played similar gs Tr.
Let me put up the example for ya so you maybe can grasp the concept of it dense as you are.
16k skilled Tr against any other class at 16k gs equal skill best out 3 matches lets see tr-sw 3-0, tr-gf 3-0, tr-cw tr 3-1(if tr slips and make 2-3 misstakes), tr-hr tr 3-0, tr-gwf tr 3-0 (while feeding the dog and making a hamburger at the same time throwing a tennis ball on the keyboard), tr faiful dc zzzzzz both fell asleep until tr used lash exe and won or simply dazed dc to sleep, tr dps dc 3-1 most even match actually.
16k skilled Tr vs 20k gs same example as above pretty much the same result with some minor adjustments
20k skilled Tr vs 16k gs same example as above 3-0 without even paying attention to the keyboard most will be killed in one rotation.
So the quantity of classes in a match is your problem?
Ok. Seemed to me like just having a TR on the enemy team was the problem. Now it's only a problem if it's 2-3 per team.
Thinking is not your strong side for sure lets take this really slow and easy for just you.
1. For some strange reason the most OP class tend to be the most played in pvp go figure how things work out.
2. If one class is OP the more of it the worse for other classes - imagine that ....
Not sure if serious.
Yea I get it changing class because the one you play is a bit to OP a much much harder class to play is an alien though for ya...
I never said TR wasn't broken. That's another problem you have.
TR needs some fixes but they're nowhere near as bad as you're saying. If I had to go by the forums, I'd assume that:
No they are worse I don't use the language I rather would to describe the situation. It has never been worse in nw or any other game I played during my almost 20 gears of gaming. In some games one class has been broken toward some other classes but never against all in this way ever.
That's the difference between believing forum whining and actually playing the game
You have in a very thorough and detailed way showed us exactly how little you know of the pvp game. If you think you Tr just need a small adjustment feel free to come to iwd with ANY class 16k gs and we can set up 1-1 with a 16k Tr the more of them the better.
I will enjoy destroying whatever class you bring in the most humiliating way possible until you face the truth.....
Thinking is not your strong side for sure lets take this really slow and easy for just you.
1. For some strange reason the most OP class tend to be the most played in pvp go figure how things work out.
2. If one class is OP the more of it the worse for other classes - imagine that ....
I'm still not understanding how Mod 3 GWF and Mod 5 TR are different.
Both mods had teams stacked with their respective over-buffed class.
Yea I get it changing class because the one you play is a bit to OP a much much harder class to play is an alien though for ya...
You're right, it is alien to me.
I started my class when it wasn't even useful to PvE. Back when it was kicked from parties for doing such low DPS. When it was an accomplishment to actually kill someone else in PvP because the damage and survivability was low and the utility was nowhere to be found.
It's not my fault the class received over-buffs. Nor is it my fault that the devs didn't choose to listen to the community that actually plays the game.
PS - I play a Soulbinder SW. Tell me more about not switching from my "op" class
No they are worse I don't use the language I rather would to describe the situation. It has never been worse in nw or any other game I played during my almost 20 gears of gaming. In some games one class has been broken toward some other classes but never against all in this way ever.
Yea, no.
It's nowhere near that bad. At the very least, CW, HR, and DC have the best chances against TR. Not including TR vs TR matchups.
And yea, other games have had it worse.
You have in a very thorough and detailed way showed us exactly how little you know of the pvp game. If you think you Tr just need a small adjustment feel free to come to iwd with ANY class 16k gs and we can set up 1-1 with a 16k Tr the more of them the better.
I will enjoy destroying whatever class you bring in the most humiliating way possible until you face the truth.....
Um, yea. TR's do need small adjustments to bring them back in line. Coming from someone who played TR since they were **** until now, it's not hard to see that it's just a few key areas that are causing all the grief on the forums and in game.
Likewise, if we listened to you, TR would be worse off than they were in Mod 4. Just going off all your posts so far, you'd remove all dodges, give permanent sight through stealth for all classes, reduce damage lower than Mod 4 levels, and replace all daggers with purses.
How beating me in PvP with a few broken mechanics proves your point is also a mystery.
You're not even arguing anymore, just ranting about all the myths thrown around the forums. Like I said, apparently I'm some god-tier TR who one-shots through GF block and spams dodge 700 times to be invulnerable and I've still been fairly beaten by most classes. Maybe you should focus less on begging for nerfs and start begging for balance.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
I copy/pasted exactly what you typed and replaced HR with TR.
Thanks for proving my point.
What is your point that HR is as OP as TR if we switch places. You make no sense what so ever as usual.
I'm still not understanding how Mod 3 GWF and Mod 5 TR are different.
Both mods had teams stacked with their respective over-buffed class.
You're not even proving your point, just whining.
Its a difference between you refusing to see the point and me proving it. Tr being way more op because they can kill the same way but have vastly superior defense toward module 3 gwfs and that its 4-5 trs in each match compared to 3-4 gwfs at that module is something you chose to ignore but hey who is counting.....
It's not my fault the class received over-buffs. Nor is it my fault that the devs didn't choose to listen to the community that actually plays the game.
No but its the Trs that abuse broken mechanics (dubble proc, feat reset etc) and play the Tr to feel good about themself in pvp faults, its not like the devs run around play broken trs in pvp.
Yea, no.
It's nowhere near that bad. At the very least, CW, HR, and DC have the best chances against TR. Not including TR vs TR matchups.
And yea, other games have had it worse.
Best chances just lol if higher gs and more skilled and yea its so bad its as bad as it can get, take a look on the russian PVP ORIENTED leader board 3 first pages TRS ONLY for a reason that you in your denial refuse to see. No big mmo game have come close to this sht*it.
Likewise, if we listened to you, TR would be worse off than they were in Mod 4. Just going off all your posts so far, you'd remove all dodges, give permanent sight through stealth for all classes, reduce damage lower than Mod 4 levels, and replace all daggers with purses
.
Plz quote me on any of my post where i ask for any of above example I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is on this.
Now I addressed that i which no harm to the Tr in pvp on several of my post about Trs.
Trs has to much defense with to much damage and ccs in their toolbox this combined with double procs feat that reset encounters being abused dailys that are way way to op with to much ap gain makes for a mess.
How beating me in PvP with a few broken mechanics proves your point is also a mystery.
We are talking about how broken the Tr are you saying its minor adjustments and that other classes can beat Trs -that is what you claim.
You bringing any other class to my Tr where i show you exactly how broken this **** is and just how little you can do about it as other classes is not something you would like to do I understand that. I would do exactly that prove the point you refuse to admit/see.
Maybe you should focus less on begging for nerfs and start begging for balance.
Coming from you that is like ku klux clan saying am not a racist.
Balance in pvp demands that Tr gives up either defense or offense and nm what you say it will always be called a nerf.
Every adjustments are called nerf by players so whatever you do to create balance for Trs it will be called nerfs not balance...
I am aware that this thread started before mod 6 was released but since I am not willing to pretend to go back in time, I will talk modernly.
I am so fed up with seeing posts saying rogues are op. Rogues are a striker, we are supposed to do more damage than any non striker class and have really good mobility. In exchange for the highest damage, we strikers do and should get the lowest hp and defenses out of all categories. Instead of over nerfing us like mod 6 just did and sucking the fun out of getting more powerful and more experienced, get the other strikers buffed if you think rogues are doing more damage than them and significantly increase the tankyness(make them harder to kill) of tanks without raising the damage of tanks much if at all. It makes perfect sense for a striker to be able to instakill you with at least a few of their powers(like lashing blade, this power should be left just like it was in mod 5 along with most of our powers), it also makes perfect sense for a tank to be extremely hard to take down(they should be harder to take down than they are if we are to have all that damage). Controllers should have devastating cc's capable of swaying a team fight in their favor(this seems to be mostly covered but they could have more). controllers should also have more hp than strikers but significantly less than tanks(appears to have been covered in mod 5). Controllers should have really good damage that is less than the strikers but more than the tanks in exchange for giving them more effective aoes and more of them than they have(notice that controllers in this game seem to be more striker-like than they should be).
It's way more fun when every class has the potential to become op in their own special ways once they get good skill and gear to go along with it. I think mod 5 was a hell of a lot better at at making that intense grind you have to do for anything be it skill or gear really really rewarding for all classes. No mod is perfect but I loved the mod 5 TR. I find the changes to life steal and regen mod 6 made actually did make a lot of sense and wish mod 5 had done that. In exchange, I would have liked to see the tanks be even harder to take down than they were in mod 5. Though I think mod 6 made a grave error in how they handled the tanks, especially the GF, they gave the GF +50% to all weapon damage and +20% to all other damage(patch notes)when they were already hitting extremely hard in mod 5. This I feel was too much extra damage for a tank and they should have buffed the hp/defenses instead. For stealth, I think rogues should be able to have ways of being in stealth more and for longer but maybe not quite to the degree of perma stealth. Either that or in order to stack to the degree of permastalth, you have to make some sacrifices in other useful areas. But mod 6 handled this terribly, instead of fiddling with powers that were designed to increase stealth to make them reasonable, they went and nerfed stealth directly from 6 seconds to 5 seconds, then nerfed our survivability too much even for a striker, and made everything be it tanky players or monsters hit way harder. This makes it way too difficult to do what a melee class has to do, get close to people long enough to do damage without it being total suicide like it is in mod 6.
Another thing, rogues have one of if not the highest skill caps out of all classes. As powerful as we can be, this class is one of the most difficult to master(which helps even more with balancing it with the other classes). We can't sit and just take the hits like a tank and don't have the protection of long ranged powers for the most part. We are melee and fragile. A clumsy, foolish, inexperienced, or underskilled rogue will be killed in seconds even if they have significantly higher gs than you, a skilled one will more often than not, destroy you even if their gs(item level now) is significantly lower than yours.
As for your absurd notion that powers like shocking execution should not be able to pierce or ignore defenses, remember that this is a daily power and the only one other than shadow of demise that ignores armor entirely. Two powers that do this sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Mod 6 has nerfed shadow of demise(they should not have) and have done so so severely that this feat is now less useful than the other two megafeats from the other trees. Also our damage would be pathetic to useless if we can't find a way to slip past our opponent's armor somehow. Not being able to cut past defenses on a few limited minority hits and/or partially for all hits when counting things like armor pin would kill our class and make tanks untouchable to us.
Oh another no name TR PUG claiming TR is fine. Wake the **** up.
So for anyone to have a sound understanding of a class they NEED to be known? I have in depth conversations about Rogue mechanics and game play in general with one of the top TR's in the game, even though I have only been playing this game for 6 weeks.
How can I do that?
I can do that due to one fact about the player, ME. I have been playing Roguish characters in about 5+ MMOs in the last 15 years.
We are required to adapt with the changes... or... we can play another class. We have ZERO control over what Cryptic does... and complaining about things that we have lost is ironic... because we do not even see the things we have gained.
Side Note: Um... who are you? If everyone in the game does not know who you are... you are a "no name TR". Should I know who you are, if I should... Why? Are you an expert?
As Thomas Edison discovered... there is always someone who knows more about a subject than self-proclaimed experts... after he met Nikolai Tesla.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
I have 12 characters myself, my pvp tr is still scoundrel even after the nerf it took and he is just really tanky, damage sucks and the daze is nerfed, stealth is almost useless for me. What more do you want them to do to the tr, waht is there to take away from me exactly? the deflect? Because 90% of the tr's exploit the bugs doesn't mean the class needs to be nerfed. I have a cw an tr's don't bother me, really since mod 3 on my cw tr's haven't bothered me much. Have you not pvped against the invicible paladins that can't even be damaged by a whole team? Think perma ITC, and this is them with out any boons or good gear, soon there will be nothing but invicidans running around.
I have 12 characters myself, my pvp tr is still scoundrel even after the nerf it took and he is just really tanky, damage sucks and the daze is nerfed, stealth is almost useless for me. What more do you want them to do to the tr, waht is there to take away from me exactly? the deflect? Because 90% of the tr's exploit the bugs doesn't mean the class needs to be nerfed. I have a cw an tr's don't bother me, really since mod 3 on my cw tr's haven't bothered me much. Have you not pvped against the invicible paladins that can't even be damaged by a whole team? Think perma ITC, and this is them with out any boons or good gear, soon there will be nothing but invicidans running around.
Deflect? You think it's the only problem? You're too naive.
And what about paladins? Sure, they can tank when they choose defensive encounters. None of which deal any considerable damage if any at all. Paladin can tank but he can't kill except if he gets a lucky crit with Divine Judgement on a debuffed player. Against a single target in a wide area (the damage spreads between targets in an area). Now what about TR in ITC or stealth? What can you do against them, huh? Not like ITC or stealth have any drawbacks. Only boosts.
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
Kay any credibility you think you had was tossed out the window with this phrase. You haven't even tasted high end pvp yet claim everything is okay.
And people that need to know me, know me. I have no wish of revealing my identity to some self-centered and clueless ****. Sorry.
I do not care who you are... or how long you have been playing the game. I know what I know, based on the differences between Mod 5 and Mod 6, that is all. I know there are issues between the 2 that I experienced. To say that 6 weeks is not enough to know anything about end game PvP... is correct.
I am not a PvP driven player... but when equally geared... I can do the same things you can.
And I am sorry that you feel you are "some self-centered and clueless ****".
I say that because I know for a fact what someone says about another person... is more of a mirror than a window. I help people realize this IRL.
I also agree that stealth, even for the limited time that we now have... deals ONLY crit damage. I will stealth even without LB ready.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Deflect? You think it's the only problem? You're too naive.
And what about paladins? Sure, they can tank when they choose defensive encounters. None of which deal any considerable damage if any at all. Paladin can tank but he can't kill except if he gets a lucky crit with Divine Judgement on a debuffed player. Against a single target in a wide area (the damage spreads between targets in an area). Now what about TR in ITC or stealth? What can you do against them, huh? Not like ITC or stealth have any drawbacks. Only boosts.
You know that ITC lost damage immunity weeks/months ago, right?
drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
edited April 2015
Umm... also... I have killed other TR's while they were in stealth, some while using ITC. Stealth does have drawbacks... ITC I do not know about since I am a Wk Exec
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
You know that ITC lost damage immunity weeks/months ago, right?
Do you know yourself that ITC gives you 100% deflect rate + CC immunity and with TR you can easily achieve 85% deflect severity? That's 85% damage reduction AFTER defense. So what was your point again?
Umm... also... I have killed other TR's while they were in stealth, some while using ITC. Stealth does have drawbacks... ITC I do not know about since I am a Wk Exec
Deflect? You think it's the only problem? You're too naive.
And what about paladins? Sure, they can tank when they choose defensive encounters. None of which deal any considerable damage if any at all. Paladin can tank but he can't kill except if he gets a lucky crit with Divine Judgement on a debuffed player. Against a single target in a wide area (the damage spreads between targets in an area). Now what about TR in ITC or stealth? What can you do against them, huh? Not like ITC or stealth have any drawbacks. Only boosts.
Stealth DOES have some drawbacks and while it is very good protection as well as a good damage boost it has weaknesses and there are ways to get a rogue while it is stealthed. Because taking damage still seems to interrupt stealth regen even if the rogue takes stuff that was supposed to prevent that, you can delay a rogue from slipping back into stealth if you keep up a stream of damage. Even a slight delay in regaining stealth can and in my case often does end up deadly. Secondly, if you are also a rogue and have cloud of steel and you hit another rogue with your daggers, that dagger will still be visible even when that rogue you hit stealths. the throwing daggers vanish after a short time so you have to make sure to replace them often with more hits but given how fast this power is, you can easily tag a stealthed rogue and keep taging it for the entire stealth duration. If I remember correctly, a ranger's arrows when they hit a rogue also remain visible when the rogue stealths for a short time. You can also daze, knock prone, freeze, or stun a rogue to keep them from stealthing. And if you have anything that holds a rogue still, it does not matter whether that rogue is stealthed or not, they are still screwed. If a rogue gets close to you while stealthed, there is a good chance they will pass close enough for you to see their health gage, rogues are mostly melee so they will need to get close a lot. Most attacks a rogue makes will instantly remove them from stealth after 1 hit and if you know anything about rogues you know that this is when you should start clobbering them so they don't get away.
Guardian fighters have something that makes them even harder to defeat while it is active than a rogue's stealth, their shield. It is often extremely hard to tell when a guardian fighter drops his shield but it is very obvious when a rogue's stealth is gone. Once this highly beneficial power ends, we have to deal with being a glaring target until we get our stealth back. Aoes also can still hit us and kill us whether we are stealthed or not.
One more way to detect a rogue in domination or gauntlgrym is to do what you are supposed to, stand on the platforms. Those platforms can be used as a burglar alarm of sorts and all you have to do to use it is watch the blue icon. The moment that icon starts to turn red, you have your rogue.
And there is one more very situational but little known way to detect a stealthed rogue but it only works if you are in a relatively quiet place, such as when you are trying to take a domination platform while no one else is there and you are standing still. Footsteps. You know that faint noise you make when you walk? Others make this sound too. I once was standing on platform 1 alone and witnessed a rogue stealth at the bottom of the staircase. I was already able to hear his footsteps while he was at the bottom of the staircase and they kept getting louder as he approached in stealth. I dodge rolled once I was sure he was close enough to hit me, he was indeed right next to me and ended up missing with his lashing blade.
Comments
The query wasn't about how to play TR, but how to counter TRs.
And this is the type of response that feeds into the notion that the PVPers around here only want easy kills by refusing to give advice to the newbs. Your response is basically "L2P". Fine, people need to learn to play. That is one reason why they come to the forums, to get advice at how to become better. What is your advice? "Look at what he does and counter it". Well DUH. The whole POINT is learning about the details.
No, this is the type of response that feeds into the notion that we don't want to hold your hand.
How did people counter TRs before? We didn't always have fore-knowledge. In fact, we had to figure it out. TRs learned how they were being countered and then adapted. The cycle goes back and forth nearly indefinitely.
It's not as simple as a cookie-cutter explanation that you can immediately apply, it's learning the finer points of the game and PvP in general. If you're so inept that you're completely incapable of analyzing a situation and adapting to it, maybe crying about not getting help shouldn't be your first concern.
This isn't a career or a life or death situation, invest the time to get better.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Sounds nice on the paper lets test it in reality.
Tr 15k gs good player using right build either itc-bloodbath-pick one-reset encounter feat-itc duelist flurry etc etc-, or why not lashing-shadow of doom+bile or plague+pick one etc etc or just daze to death.
Add to that 4 dodges that takes you compleatly out of range followed by hide now try to catch a tr rolling 2more times right after entering hide random direction.
A 15k Tr will own anything but bis geared dc hr or cw rest wont matter he will own then nm gs and stand a very good chanse of killing the others also but can still loose.
Now put a 15k gs of any class against a 15 or bis geared Tr and the result is 100% loss for non Trs.
Other classes depend on playing faultless while Tr will only loose if he screws up and even then he has itc or dodges to save his butt+ lets not forget increadible movement only dreamed of by other classes.
You cant beat a good tr with a good build because he has all the things that can counter you but you have nothing to counter him from attacking you.
The fight is rigged from the start Trs has to much defencive capabilitys and still the enourmous dps either as exe with exteme burst or as dotts with sod and bloodbath.
Its not a l2p issue unless I face inferior Trs with no clue how to play the class.
This has been proven over and over again and there are tons of vidios that showes what happend when you face a good tr even with 3-1.
Tr in pve fin tr in pvp is as broken as any class in any pvp game ever has been its not even a challange to play tr in pvp its pure godmode and slaughter......
So, long story short:
TR is absolute god-mode ****, no one can ever beat TRs unless the TR is playing bad. Because TR is invulnerable to attack.
The problem isn't that TR is impossible to beat. The problem is you already gave up.
I'm a 16k WK. You know, that paragon path that's been **** ever since it came out? I've been wrecked by nearly every class (Exception is SW because lolbalance). It may have been that I was playing bad but even after adapting, they either straight up won or made the kill so difficult to work for that it's not worth the effort in the grand-scope of things.
it's not impossible. You're just acting like a *****.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
My Hr is 23kgs and i beat most Tr simply because am better geared and have tons of more experiance.
However when I face a simular Tr am dead in seconds and with absolutly no way of avoiding it nm what I do or what abilitys I use.
Bis Tr that use broken build/mechanics are immortals against other classes if you dont know that you never faced one never played another class against them or never watched the high end premades where Tr kills the most experianced highest gs player there is 1-2.
I played 1000nd of pvp matches and 100nds since module 5 I never gave up but neither did I EVER accpept that Tr can rule the way they do
Now go get some experiance so you at least have a clue what your talking about then come back mkay.....
I don't. I just queue and afk in the match with my TR.
Obviously.
Thanks for proving my point: it's not impossible.
Honestly, I could say the same for HR.
Do you cry like this in every mod?
Every mod had a class that simply overshadowed everyone else. The only problem is that now it's TR. I don't remember this much crying when HR, CW, or even GWF was in this position.
I'm not going to say that TR doesn't have a lot of problems. The Devs reached out for feedback and those of us that actually knew the class were drowned out by posts like yours:
And to date, every nerf was either unnecessary or wrongly placed.
You're doing a good job for your community.
I probably played that many during Mod 4 when CW/HR was on top. You know, back when WK wasn't good at anything, even questing for campaigns.
I'm gonna let the HR tell me to get experience on a class he doesn't play or understand.
Ok.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
But that would be a lie.... You remember correct there never been anything like Trs in NWs short pvp history not even close, gwf at its hights was a trainwreck incommming and dominated but never to the extent the Trs does today. 2-3 gwfs in a match was common not as it is with trs 4-5.
Far better then my gf which i played instead of my hr in module 4.
If I say Tr is completely broken and you say its not guess who knows the class best. Take a look at forums it might give you a clue. But then again if you still defend Tr its not much hope for ya is there....
storm spell can multiproc and crit...wai
cw shield mitigate piercing and cant be reduced by armor pen...wai
tr got perma daze .... wai
hr got undodgable roots....wai
i almost forgot...dc can bring people full hp 5 times in a row while receiving no damage...must be wai
we just cant talk...just stop trying.
Ok, here's your logic:
My TR is 16kgs and i beat most HR simply because am better geared and have tons of more experiance.
However when I face a simular HR am dead in seconds and with absolutly no way of avoiding it nm what I do or what abilitys I use.
That's how stupid you sound.
So the quantity of classes in a match is your problem?
Ok. Seemed to me like just having a TR on the enemy team was the problem. Now it's only a problem if it's 2-3 per team.
Not sure if serious.
I never said TR wasn't broken. That's another problem you have.
TR needs some fixes but they're nowhere near as bad as you're saying. If I had to go by the forums, I'd assume that:
A TR instantly perma-dazes everyone on the other team and one-shots them with Lashing Blade from 200km away. They also have 500k HP and 100% Deflect with 938247239847% Severity as well as 900 dodges. Oh and they also have persistent Bloodbath running.
That's the difference between believing forum whining and actually playing the game
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
You say you beat most Hrs with LOWER gs then you that are inexperienced and when you face HRs in your skill lvl with same gs your dead nm what.
Now what I said was that to beat a TR he must either be vastly inferior in skill OR gs preferable both.
A 16k gs well played Tr can beat any HR no matter gear or skill but a 16k HR cant even dent a well played similar gs Tr.
Let me put up the example for ya so you maybe can grasp the concept of it dense as you are.
16k skilled Tr against any other class at 16k gs equal skill best out 3 matches lets see tr-sw 3-0, tr-gf 3-0, tr-cw tr 3-1(if tr slips and make 2-3 misstakes), tr-hr tr 3-0, tr-gwf tr 3-0 (while feeding the dog and making a hamburger at the same time throwing a tennis ball on the keyboard), tr faiful dc zzzzzz both fell asleep until tr used lash exe and won or simply dazed dc to sleep, tr dps dc 3-1 most even match actually.
16k skilled Tr vs 20k gs same example as above pretty much the same result with some minor adjustments
20k skilled Tr vs 16k gs same example as above 3-0 without even paying attention to the keyboard most will be killed in one rotation.
Thinking is not your strong side for sure lets take this really slow and easy for just you.
1. For some strange reason the most OP class tend to be the most played in pvp go figure how things work out.
2. If one class is OP the more of it the worse for other classes - imagine that .... Yea I get it changing class because the one you play is a bit to OP a much much harder class to play is an alien though for ya...
No they are worse I don't use the language I rather would to describe the situation. It has never been worse in nw or any other game I played during my almost 20 gears of gaming. In some games one class has been broken toward some other classes but never against all in this way ever.
You have in a very thorough and detailed way showed us exactly how little you know of the pvp game. If you think you Tr just need a small adjustment feel free to come to iwd with ANY class 16k gs and we can set up 1-1 with a 16k Tr the more of them the better.
I will enjoy destroying whatever class you bring in the most humiliating way possible until you face the truth.....
I copy/pasted exactly what you typed and replaced HR with TR.
Thanks for proving my point.
I'm still not understanding how Mod 3 GWF and Mod 5 TR are different.
Both mods had teams stacked with their respective over-buffed class.
You're not even proving your point, just whining.
You're right, it is alien to me.
I started my class when it wasn't even useful to PvE. Back when it was kicked from parties for doing such low DPS. When it was an accomplishment to actually kill someone else in PvP because the damage and survivability was low and the utility was nowhere to be found.
It's not my fault the class received over-buffs. Nor is it my fault that the devs didn't choose to listen to the community that actually plays the game.
PS - I play a Soulbinder SW. Tell me more about not switching from my "op" class
Yea, no.
It's nowhere near that bad. At the very least, CW, HR, and DC have the best chances against TR. Not including TR vs TR matchups.
And yea, other games have had it worse.
Um, yea. TR's do need small adjustments to bring them back in line. Coming from someone who played TR since they were **** until now, it's not hard to see that it's just a few key areas that are causing all the grief on the forums and in game.
Likewise, if we listened to you, TR would be worse off than they were in Mod 4. Just going off all your posts so far, you'd remove all dodges, give permanent sight through stealth for all classes, reduce damage lower than Mod 4 levels, and replace all daggers with purses.
How beating me in PvP with a few broken mechanics proves your point is also a mystery.
You're not even arguing anymore, just ranting about all the myths thrown around the forums. Like I said, apparently I'm some god-tier TR who one-shots through GF block and spams dodge 700 times to be invulnerable and I've still been fairly beaten by most classes. Maybe you should focus less on begging for nerfs and start begging for balance.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Its a difference between you refusing to see the point and me proving it. Tr being way more op because they can kill the same way but have vastly superior defense toward module 3 gwfs and that its 4-5 trs in each match compared to 3-4 gwfs at that module is something you chose to ignore but hey who is counting.....
No but its the Trs that abuse broken mechanics (dubble proc, feat reset etc) and play the Tr to feel good about themself in pvp faults, its not like the devs run around play broken trs in pvp.
Best chances just lol if higher gs and more skilled and yea its so bad its as bad as it can get, take a look on the russian PVP ORIENTED leader board 3 first pages TRS ONLY for a reason that you in your denial refuse to see. No big mmo game have come close to this sht*it. .
Plz quote me on any of my post where i ask for any of above example I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is on this.
Now I addressed that i which no harm to the Tr in pvp on several of my post about Trs.
Trs has to much defense with to much damage and ccs in their toolbox this combined with double procs feat that reset encounters being abused dailys that are way way to op with to much ap gain makes for a mess.
We are talking about how broken the Tr are you saying its minor adjustments and that other classes can beat Trs -that is what you claim.
You bringing any other class to my Tr where i show you exactly how broken this **** is and just how little you can do about it as other classes is not something you would like to do I understand that. I would do exactly that prove the point you refuse to admit/see.
Coming from you that is like ku klux clan saying am not a racist.
Balance in pvp demands that Tr gives up either defense or offense and nm what you say it will always be called a nerf.
Every adjustments are called nerf by players so whatever you do to create balance for Trs it will be called nerfs not balance...
Like:
- Thieves Den / TR-bashing
- Thieves Den / TR-Paragon Path preference debate
- Thieves Den / Useful information
...would ofc not be respected, but give the mods an easier way to streamline...
You're right. I give up.
Let's just nerf TR back into Mod 4 status.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
I am so fed up with seeing posts saying rogues are op. Rogues are a striker, we are supposed to do more damage than any non striker class and have really good mobility. In exchange for the highest damage, we strikers do and should get the lowest hp and defenses out of all categories. Instead of over nerfing us like mod 6 just did and sucking the fun out of getting more powerful and more experienced, get the other strikers buffed if you think rogues are doing more damage than them and significantly increase the tankyness(make them harder to kill) of tanks without raising the damage of tanks much if at all. It makes perfect sense for a striker to be able to instakill you with at least a few of their powers(like lashing blade, this power should be left just like it was in mod 5 along with most of our powers), it also makes perfect sense for a tank to be extremely hard to take down(they should be harder to take down than they are if we are to have all that damage). Controllers should have devastating cc's capable of swaying a team fight in their favor(this seems to be mostly covered but they could have more). controllers should also have more hp than strikers but significantly less than tanks(appears to have been covered in mod 5). Controllers should have really good damage that is less than the strikers but more than the tanks in exchange for giving them more effective aoes and more of them than they have(notice that controllers in this game seem to be more striker-like than they should be).
It's way more fun when every class has the potential to become op in their own special ways once they get good skill and gear to go along with it. I think mod 5 was a hell of a lot better at at making that intense grind you have to do for anything be it skill or gear really really rewarding for all classes. No mod is perfect but I loved the mod 5 TR. I find the changes to life steal and regen mod 6 made actually did make a lot of sense and wish mod 5 had done that. In exchange, I would have liked to see the tanks be even harder to take down than they were in mod 5. Though I think mod 6 made a grave error in how they handled the tanks, especially the GF, they gave the GF +50% to all weapon damage and +20% to all other damage(patch notes)when they were already hitting extremely hard in mod 5. This I feel was too much extra damage for a tank and they should have buffed the hp/defenses instead. For stealth, I think rogues should be able to have ways of being in stealth more and for longer but maybe not quite to the degree of perma stealth. Either that or in order to stack to the degree of permastalth, you have to make some sacrifices in other useful areas. But mod 6 handled this terribly, instead of fiddling with powers that were designed to increase stealth to make them reasonable, they went and nerfed stealth directly from 6 seconds to 5 seconds, then nerfed our survivability too much even for a striker, and made everything be it tanky players or monsters hit way harder. This makes it way too difficult to do what a melee class has to do, get close to people long enough to do damage without it being total suicide like it is in mod 6.
Another thing, rogues have one of if not the highest skill caps out of all classes. As powerful as we can be, this class is one of the most difficult to master(which helps even more with balancing it with the other classes). We can't sit and just take the hits like a tank and don't have the protection of long ranged powers for the most part. We are melee and fragile. A clumsy, foolish, inexperienced, or underskilled rogue will be killed in seconds even if they have significantly higher gs than you, a skilled one will more often than not, destroy you even if their gs(item level now) is significantly lower than yours.
As for your absurd notion that powers like shocking execution should not be able to pierce or ignore defenses, remember that this is a daily power and the only one other than shadow of demise that ignores armor entirely. Two powers that do this sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Mod 6 has nerfed shadow of demise(they should not have) and have done so so severely that this feat is now less useful than the other two megafeats from the other trees. Also our damage would be pathetic to useless if we can't find a way to slip past our opponent's armor somehow. Not being able to cut past defenses on a few limited minority hits and/or partially for all hits when counting things like armor pin would kill our class and make tanks untouchable to us.
So for anyone to have a sound understanding of a class they NEED to be known? I have in depth conversations about Rogue mechanics and game play in general with one of the top TR's in the game, even though I have only been playing this game for 6 weeks.
How can I do that?
I can do that due to one fact about the player, ME. I have been playing Roguish characters in about 5+ MMOs in the last 15 years.
We are required to adapt with the changes... or... we can play another class. We have ZERO control over what Cryptic does... and complaining about things that we have lost is ironic... because we do not even see the things we have gained.
Side Note: Um... who are you? If everyone in the game does not know who you are... you are a "no name TR". Should I know who you are, if I should... Why? Are you an expert?
As Thomas Edison discovered... there is always someone who knows more about a subject than self-proclaimed experts... after he met Nikolai Tesla.
And people that need to know me, know me. I have no wish of revealing my identity to some self-centered and clueless ****. Sorry.
Deflect? You think it's the only problem? You're too naive.
And what about paladins? Sure, they can tank when they choose defensive encounters. None of which deal any considerable damage if any at all. Paladin can tank but he can't kill except if he gets a lucky crit with Divine Judgement on a debuffed player. Against a single target in a wide area (the damage spreads between targets in an area). Now what about TR in ITC or stealth? What can you do against them, huh? Not like ITC or stealth have any drawbacks. Only boosts.
I do not care who you are... or how long you have been playing the game. I know what I know, based on the differences between Mod 5 and Mod 6, that is all. I know there are issues between the 2 that I experienced. To say that 6 weeks is not enough to know anything about end game PvP... is correct.
I am not a PvP driven player... but when equally geared... I can do the same things you can.
And I am sorry that you feel you are "some self-centered and clueless ****".
I say that because I know for a fact what someone says about another person... is more of a mirror than a window. I help people realize this IRL.
I also agree that stealth, even for the limited time that we now have... deals ONLY crit damage. I will stealth even without LB ready.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Do you know yourself that ITC gives you 100% deflect rate + CC immunity and with TR you can easily achieve 85% deflect severity? That's 85% damage reduction AFTER defense. So what was your point again?
What drawbacks are those? Please, enlighten me.
every.single.time
WK = pug paragon for clueless imbeciles
regards
Stealth DOES have some drawbacks and while it is very good protection as well as a good damage boost it has weaknesses and there are ways to get a rogue while it is stealthed. Because taking damage still seems to interrupt stealth regen even if the rogue takes stuff that was supposed to prevent that, you can delay a rogue from slipping back into stealth if you keep up a stream of damage. Even a slight delay in regaining stealth can and in my case often does end up deadly. Secondly, if you are also a rogue and have cloud of steel and you hit another rogue with your daggers, that dagger will still be visible even when that rogue you hit stealths. the throwing daggers vanish after a short time so you have to make sure to replace them often with more hits but given how fast this power is, you can easily tag a stealthed rogue and keep taging it for the entire stealth duration. If I remember correctly, a ranger's arrows when they hit a rogue also remain visible when the rogue stealths for a short time. You can also daze, knock prone, freeze, or stun a rogue to keep them from stealthing. And if you have anything that holds a rogue still, it does not matter whether that rogue is stealthed or not, they are still screwed. If a rogue gets close to you while stealthed, there is a good chance they will pass close enough for you to see their health gage, rogues are mostly melee so they will need to get close a lot. Most attacks a rogue makes will instantly remove them from stealth after 1 hit and if you know anything about rogues you know that this is when you should start clobbering them so they don't get away.
Guardian fighters have something that makes them even harder to defeat while it is active than a rogue's stealth, their shield. It is often extremely hard to tell when a guardian fighter drops his shield but it is very obvious when a rogue's stealth is gone. Once this highly beneficial power ends, we have to deal with being a glaring target until we get our stealth back. Aoes also can still hit us and kill us whether we are stealthed or not.
One more way to detect a rogue in domination or gauntlgrym is to do what you are supposed to, stand on the platforms. Those platforms can be used as a burglar alarm of sorts and all you have to do to use it is watch the blue icon. The moment that icon starts to turn red, you have your rogue.
And there is one more very situational but little known way to detect a stealthed rogue but it only works if you are in a relatively quiet place, such as when you are trying to take a domination platform while no one else is there and you are standing still. Footsteps. You know that faint noise you make when you walk? Others make this sound too. I once was standing on platform 1 alone and witnessed a rogue stealth at the bottom of the staircase. I was already able to hear his footsteps while he was at the bottom of the staircase and they kept getting louder as he approached in stealth. I dodge rolled once I was sure he was close enough to hit me, he was indeed right next to me and ended up missing with his lashing blade.