Yes most GWF in pvp are sentinel.. But for pve most aren't...an area the class still struggles.. So tell me how can u adjust sentinel for pvp without destroying the class for pve? Given they won't have separation between pvp and pve.. I can't see how it's possible.. And given 80% of the population play for pve not pvp.. How will these adjustments benefit the game at all?
Resilience PvP gear.
I talked about resilience way before the stat "stat_resilience" appeared on preview shard PvP armor, because after playing that other MMO, it seemed natural to me.
I'll explain again how it works:
- introduce PvP items that have Resilience stat
- Resilience stat only working in PvP; it partially replaces things such as crit/power/recovery/ArP on PvP items
- effects of Resilience: reduced player damage against the wearer; crits do not scale to the insane amounts as they do now
- Resilience made almost mandatory for PvP: you don't wear a certain amount of it, you get one-shot. As time passes and players become better etc., they can replace a certain part of PvP gear with PvE gear, but they will still have to wear enough Resilience to guarantee crit severity reduction... or die horribly fast.
This way, devs will be able to fine tune each class damage potential SOLELY for PvP without even touching PvE at all. Also, with this method you not need any nerfs and such.
Also 80% vs 20% PvE vs PvP is... estimation But I do agree that more people PvE than PvP, because well... PvP is badly done and it's BRUTAL for 90% of the chars, since it needs gear, spec&skills that require heavy time investment or money.
Many more would PvP if only a ladder/ranking/matchmaking systems were available, so they would play against people with relatively same gear&skills, because as it stands now, you can end up against fully geared PvP premade the very first day you made it to 60, and of course you will hate PvP then.
Most GWFs you meet in PvP are regen sents. I've yet to see a single Destroyer or Instigator in a PM vs PM.
As I said in previous post, GWFs need PvE damage (if they specced for that...). The usual PvP builds however have the best of both world: damage and tankyness. This shouldn't happen, that's all.
As stated before, the main issue about sentinels is, usually, the sinergy i explained in the previous post.
Damage is what it is for any other class. Determined by the same stats.
Sentinel tanks in module 2 can have more crit/ ArP thanks to artifacts, allowing them to change some regeneration gear. But the same goes for DPS classes: they can go more tanky (2x waters of el'azad can boost a lot both defense and regeneration) while keeping their offensive setup. So, while sentinels in module 2 got a potential boost in damage, the DPS builds got a potential boost in defense/ regeneration.
As for DPS builds vs tank builds: if you talk about PvP, there's a reason for what you say. In PvE, the DPS difference is massive. Cause, there, what makes the damage is mostly crit and power, since ArP is not needed after 24%.
In PvP, instead, the damage is determined more by ArP than power, and crit difference of some % points can be noticed when you're constantly hitting groups of mobs (PvE), but is marginal in PvP where fights are fast. So, basically, the more power more crit of DPS builds is not of that much help, while the massive constitution= ArP of the tanks is, usually, a better damage boost in PvP.
A DPS build, when going PvP, should, if you ask me, Always use a 2nd gear set based on stacked ArP and defense/ regeneration. For GWFs, for example, the basic PvP set is good. I'll explain later. And make good use of the reduced cooldowns on roar and takedown to keep the sentinel proned more often.
A PvE DPS build is at a disadvantage cause they go to PvP, usually, with PvE gear. And the stats-powers you need for PvP are different than from PvE.
My hybrid has 2 sets: 1 PvE, 1 PvP. The PvE one has 14.7k GS, with more power, more crit, recovery and life steal. The PvP set has more HP, regeneration, and ArP overkill (compared to the PvE requirements), with 13.2k GS. Needless to say, the PvP set, even with a much lower GS, is more effective in PvP compared to the PvE set.
So, if you ask me, you should take into account the fact that PvP and PvE require different stats to build damage.
This goes for gear sets powers too. Aavatar of War full set power, or Berserker ful lset power, are very good for PvE, if you ask me. For PvP, almost useless. On the other side, even the PvP basic set heals you, after module 2 update (now it heals for a certain amount depending on the % of determination, for 8 seconds), for 2k-2.6k average EVERY TIME you go unstoppable. Together with regeneration. And considering you go unstoppable a lot in PvP, you get the idea. The bonus is more useful in PvP than the AoW bonus.
The reason DPS builds are usually less effective in PvE is cause they go PvP the same way they go PvE. But they are 2 very different things.
A very well done PvP DPS build can hurt a lot more than a tank build. I mean, a lot, with comparable gear. Sentinels i've fought don't even come close to such damage.
What must be fixed, as said, is the survivability overkill given by the boost of unstoppable, coming from the loop-sinergy between high HP pool-regeneration-unstoppable (the way it is now). Which, as i explained above, multiplies the efficiency of unstoppable, making it X times more efficient than in DPS builds with less HP. Add also to this that the unstoppable recovery feat is also boosted in high HP tank builds, due to the higher HP pool.
Change determination build from X amount of damage taken, to X% of total HP lost, making sentinel tanks go unstoppable like any other build and not 10 times more, and you see how they will still be tanky, but not that hard to kill.
Couple this with Threat rush spam fixed and DPS builds going to PvP with proper gear/ stats focus, and you'll see the change.
People who have no clue about how the D&D fighter works, should just stop posting irellevant things about them. What are you going to do when the GWF gets two 2handed weapons and a real DD spec tree with execution etc.?
Learn how D&D works (i had to do it, too) then start posting feedback. Not the other way around.
As stated before, the main issue about sentinels is, usually, the sinergy i explained in the previous post.
Damage is what it is for any other class. Determined by the same stats.
Sentinel tanks in module 2 can have more crit/ ArP thanks to artifacts, allowing them to change some regeneration gear. But the same goes for DPS classes: they can go more tanky (2x waters of el'azad can boost a lot both defense and regeneration) while keeping their offensive setup. So, while sentinels in module 2 got a potential boost in damage, the DPS builds got a potential boost in defense/ regeneration.
Even if you confront them with logic. their classes are supposed to have it all, while the ones they fail to counter/kill etc. are not.
HR should be able to kite everything infinitely, to the death.
TR should be able to 1 hit everything from stealth.
Sentinels got more damage because of the powerful damage feat. Theoretically, a full sentinel should be able to get the 3 largest damage increasing feats, while destroyers and instigators can only get two. SotS, Deep Gash, and Powerful Challenge. Instigators and Destroyers can only have 2 of those.
So why should a PvP GWF be anything but sentinel with those 3 feats? The other specs won't do any more damage and will be a lot squishier. A nerf to sentinel definitely does hurt Destroyers/Instigators, because they are inferior already.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
0
nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes most GWF in pvp are sentinel.. But for pve most aren't...an area the class still struggles.. So tell me how can u adjust sentinel for pvp without destroying the class for pve? Given they won't have separation between pvp and pve.. I can't see how it's possible.. And given 80% of the population play for pve not pvp.. How will these adjustments benefit the game at all?
Some builds are better in PvP than PvE. Asking for a specialization to be extremely effective in both PvP and PvE is unreasonable.
For example: Saboteur TR might be good for solo PvE or holding PvP. Oppressor CW is great for PvP but is less asked for in PvE compared to Renegades and Thaumaturges.
So why should Sentinel GWF be top in PvP and still be "great" in PvE? If you want PvE, go Instigator or Destroyer. As long as bugs/exploits are fixed and Sentinel is tweaked to be less "lol deflect everything" alongside high damage, this barely affects the other GWF trees or GWF overall viability in PvE.
My suggested fix? Rather than tinker with Destroyer or Instigator trees, change Master At Arms feat on the Sentinel Tree to tie to Steadfast Determination instead of Weaponmaster and remove the +deflect chance from the feat. That instantly reduces potential damage from a Sentinel and the excessive amounts of deflect they can stack. It doesn't change that they can access Destroyer/Instigator early feats to compensate for the loss of damage, or pick up other Sentinel feats to boost survivability instead, but not have both.
Your thinking seems to be that Sentinels should be great in PvP as well as viable in PvE, when really specializations should mean such.
My Destroyer GWF is perfectly happy to be great in PvE and average/poor in PvP without any points in Sentinel tree.
I talked about resilience way before the stat "stat_resilience" appeared on preview shard PvP armor, because after playing that other MMO, it seemed natural to me.
I'll explain again how it works:
- introduce PvP items that have Resilience stat
- Resilience stat only working in PvP; it partially replaces things such as crit/power/recovery/ArP on PvP items
- effects of Resilience: reduced player damage against the wearer; crits do not scale to the insane amounts as they do now
- Resilience made almost mandatory for PvP: you don't wear a certain amount of it, you get one-shot. As time passes and players become better etc., they can replace a certain part of PvP gear with PvE gear, but they will still have to wear enough Resilience to guarantee crit severity reduction... or die horribly fast.
This way, devs will be able to fine tune each class damage potential SOLELY for PvP without even touching PvE at all. Also, with this method you not need any nerfs and such.
Also 80% vs 20% PvE vs PvP is... estimation But I do agree that more people PvE than PvP, because well... PvP is badly done and it's BRUTAL for 90% of the chars, since it needs gear, spec&skills that require heavy time investment or money.
Many more would PvP if only a ladder/ranking/matchmaking systems were available, so they would play against people with relatively same gear&skills, because as it stands now, you can end up against fully geared PvP premade the very first day you made it to 60, and of course you will hate PvP then.
I actually like this idea because it adds another element to the game. I've played other MMOs where this was a thing. The PvP gear would have different set bonuses (instead of 450 crit, have 2-4% player damage reduction). On top of that have some rings, necks, belts, shirts, and pants that increase damage resistance to other players, or increase damage to other players by a percentage.
Unless you're Warhammer Online (may it rest in peace), you need a bigger separation between PvE and PvP. Optimized gear and stats for each would be good. Your PvP gear should make you better in PvP, but have shortcomings for PvE and vice versa.
A GS ranking system would be helpful too, and maybe a premade queue separate from a pug queue would also be helpful.
Dragon Server
Ragnos Fireborn - 18.7k GWF Half-Elf Eva Darkblood - 13.8k TR Elf Venger Force of Evil - 13.7k CW Tiefling Azaghal Belegost - 16.5k GF Dwarf Drak'ar - 13.3k HR Drow Roghthar Darkspawn - 11.5k SW Human
People who have no clue about how the D&D fighter works, should just stop posting irellevant things about them.
You need to stop comparing the pen and paper to MMO. I too, adore my D&D experience since 2nd edition but this is something entirely different. Also, if you want to stick to your fluff and live by the PhB and DMG, then you should understand that gearing would be vastly different since according to drop rates, Ancient swords (for example) should be wielded by one person. So...yeah...don't even bother comparing apples to oranges.
As far as the discussion about PvE vs PvP effectiveness is concerned, I have to add that it's a bit difficult to understand what most people thing when refering to PvE viability. If you are good at PvE only if you top the damage chart and have the other members of the party telling "Oh my god, AMAZING damage...can I have your autograph", then yes...any balancing wouldn't work.
PvE effectiveness=smooth runs with everyone doing its job towards the goal. MC and VT can be completed even if you don't have a P.Vorpal Destroyer dishing out 40m damage...just saying.
People who have no clue about how the D&D fighter works, should just stop posting irellevant things about them. What are you going to do when the GWF gets two 2handed weapons and a real DD spec tree with execution etc.? I guess the greasy - manboob forum warrior - cult will be raging even more.
Learn how D&D works (i had to do it, too) then start posting feedback. Not the other way around.
Are you always just hostile and bitter and add nothing of value to discussions?
Correct me if I'm wrong too, but I don't see Master of Flame or Stormspell as subclasses for a Wizard in 4th, but my knowledge is rusty. Should we remove these too because it's not how D&D works?
Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I actually like this idea because it adds another element to the game. I've played other MMOs where this was a thing.
Well I take no credit for the idea at all. As a pretty decent PvPer in that other MMO (2000+ 2 vs 2), I'm perplexed about PvP in Neverwinter. It just lacks so many things I have taken as a standard before... yet it has much better action combat. So to me things like Diminishing Returns, PvP resilience gear, Dual Spec and proper class balance + matchmaking/ladders are the foundation for a healthy PvP system. What we have now it's so basic for this day&age it's shocking. I suppose in time things will definitely improve, but problem is in time I will probably be playing other MMO.
So I'd like to see these improvements in my time here.
You need to stop comparing the pen and paper to MMO.
As far as the discussion about PvE vs PvP effectiveness is concerned, I have to add that it's a bit difficult to understand what most people thing when refering to PvE viability. If you are good at PvE only if you top the damage chart and have the other members of the party telling "Oh my god, AMAZING damage...can I have your autograph", then yes...any balancing wouldn't work.
I agree. MMO is one thing, D&D another. This MMO is just D&D flavored, but still primarily an MMO.
Now about the damage.
If people spec for DPS, they deserve to see results. DPS GWFs, HRs, CWs and TRs at same gear/exp/skill should all compete for 1st spot in DPS chart. If one class cannot compete (TRs for example nowadays), then it certainly needs to be "fixed" so it performs in a satisfying way for the player.
If people spec for DPS, they deserve to see results. DPS GWFs, HRs, CWs and TRs at same gear/exp/skill should all compete for 1st spot in DPS chart. If one class cannot compete (TRs for example nowadays), then it certainly needs to be "fixed" so it performs in a satisfying way for the player.
I will disagree. Clearly this is not a DPS thing issue. This is a design flaw issue. Since all fights feature countless mobs and people pay attention to trash clearing damage, then it's certain that the best DPS will be the ones that can deal with packs of mobs in seconds. If dungeons were well designed, classes would have a role. In the current situation, only classes that AoE can get to the chart and this is why it shouldn't be used for any reference at all. I mean, since when people started paying attention to trash clearing damage? I understand that some boss fights feature add-handling, but the final 'paingiver' lolsheet comes out from all the trash you've been clearing up to then. So yeah, irrelevant to skills and coordination (the basic ingredients of good PvE groups).
* Notorious Dwarven Bear Cavalry Leader *
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I will disagree. Clearly this is not a DPS thing issue. This is a design flaw issue. Since all fights feature countless mobs and people pay attention to trash clearing damage, then it's certain that the best DPS will be the ones that can deal with packs of mobs in seconds. If dungeons were well designed, classes would have a role. In the current situation, only classes that AoE can get to the chart and this is why it shouldn't be used for any reference at all. I mean, since when people started paying attention to trash clearing damage? I understand that some boss fights feature add-handling, but the final 'paingiver' lolsheet comes out from all the trash you've been clearing up to then. So yeah, irrelevant to skills and coordination (the basic ingredients of good PvE groups).
Yes, I suggested way before to improve (IMO) dungeon design and increase viability of melee classes, such as reducing trash, introducing magic immune elites/elites with anti-magic shield vulnerable to physical damage and so on.
People pay attention to the Paingiver screen cause it is shown by the game. To understand damage dealt/DPS in depth, one cannot simply use a game function or a "recount"-type simple addon, they need to download ACT+NWO plugin and play with that, and few do.
So in the end all that remains are those popups the game serves you.
Until the game improves in this department, I believe DPS characters should have their chance to see good results on those charts. And since most of that damage comes from AoEing many adds... what can I say... give classes enough AoE
Again, I know this is just a quickfix and not the true solution.
The true solution is good dungeon design, we both come from that other MMO and we know that very well.
I will disagree. Clearly this is not a DPS thing issue. This is a design flaw issue. Since all fights feature countless mobs and people pay attention to trash clearing damage, then it's certain that the best DPS will be the ones that can deal with packs of mobs in seconds. If dungeons were well designed, classes would have a role. In the current situation, only classes that AoE can get to the chart and this is why it shouldn't be used for any reference at all. I mean, since when people started paying attention to trash clearing damage? I understand that some boss fights feature add-handling, but the final 'paingiver' lolsheet comes out from all the trash you've been clearing up to then. So yeah, irrelevant to skills and coordination (the basic ingredients of good PvE groups).
I believe this has been stated many times by many people in many threads that a lot of PvE QoL issues and performance for classes comes from sloppy dungeon design rather than the class itself.
I don't do end game dungeons much, but from what I gather on the forums it sounds like most fights just resort to throwing adds at you every fight which if that's the case then classes designed for AoE will always do better. It sounds like(if that's the case) that they need more mechanics based solo boss fights to let the single target damage dealers (GWF, TR) shine more.
Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
It's not really worth paying attention to paingiver stats (or field medic, come to that) and people who do (and who care) are essentially epeen stroking. It's a shame they put that in at all, really, since it de-emphasises an absolute boatload of other, more useful aspects to a successful run, like effective control, debuffing, mitigation and just not playing like you're a solo showboat.
If they're gonna put stats up at all, it'd be nice if they made it more comprehensive: like damage mitigated, # mobs controlled, # mobs debuffed, damage blocked, time_spent_not_standing_in_the_red_like_a_moron, and so on (the last would be particularly fun to see).
Well I take no credit for the idea at all. As a pretty decent PvPer in that other MMO (2000+ 2 vs 2), I'm perplexed about PvP in Neverwinter. It just lacks so many things I have taken as a standard before... yet it has much better action combat. So to me things like Diminishing Returns, PvP resilience gear, Dual Spec and proper class balance + matchmaking/ladders are the foundation for a healthy PvP system. What we have now it's so basic for this day&age it's shocking. I suppose in time things will definitely improve, but problem is in time I will probably be playing other MMO.
So I'd like to see these improvements in my time here.
I really do think NW has the potential to be top notch when it comes to PvP based on the action combat system. If cryptic took some pointers for WAR, Aion, SWTOR, and various other games, we could have a phenomenal PvP system with ranked matches, group queues and pug queues (SWTOR), large scale battlegrounds with massive fort takeovers and PvPvE instances (Aion), and tier based open world PvP (WAR).
Cryptic and PWE, if you're listening, can you guys really look into this? You have potential to be something great here.
Dragon Server
Ragnos Fireborn - 18.7k GWF Half-Elf Eva Darkblood - 13.8k TR Elf Venger Force of Evil - 13.7k CW Tiefling Azaghal Belegost - 16.5k GF Dwarf Drak'ar - 13.3k HR Drow Roghthar Darkspawn - 11.5k SW Human
It's not really worth paying attention to paingiver stats (or field medic, come to that) and people who do (and who care) are essentially epeen stroking. It's a shame they put that in at all, really, since it de-emphasises an absolute boatload of other, more useful aspects to a successful run, like effective control, debuffing, mitigation and just not playing like you're a solo showboat.
If they're gonna put stats up at all, it'd be nice if they made it more comprehensive: like damage mitigated, # mobs controlled, # mobs debuffed, damage blocked, time_spent_not_standing_in_the_red_like_a_moron, and so on (the last would be particularly fun to see).
You have to take pain giver as what it is, an extremely limited function way of measuring performance.
PLEASE! Someone help me! I am very NEW to this game and have been loving it thus far, BUT I cannot use THREATENING RUSH. I am a level 50 GWF and have all 3 power points in it and moved it into my "At Will" tray next to SURE STRIKE, the problem is that THREATENING STRIKE is "greyed" out (it also has a small number '3' in the bottom left corner of it) and will not let me use it... what gives, what am i missing and why doesn't this game explain anything what-so-ever so that one doesn't lose their mind trying to figure out the basic game mechanics???
PLEASE! Someone help me! I am very NEW to this game and have been loving it thus far, BUT I cannot use THREATENING RUSH. And according to the Forums I am unable to start my own thread... not sure why. I am a level 50 GWF and have all 3 power points in it and moved it into my "At Will" tray next to SURE STRIKE, the problem is that THREATENING STRIKE is "greyed" out (it also has a small number '3' in the bottom left corner of it) and will not let me use it... what gives, what am i missing and why doesn't this game explain anything what-so-ever so that one doesn't lose their mind trying to figure out the basic game mechanics???
Felixlupin, unlike a number of other GWF powers, Threatening Rush is a targeted power. If it's greyed out, then it means that there is no target for it to activate on. Go out and find something that you can kill, and then try activating the power on it.
so none of you seem to have looked up that regeneration will no longer work in combat in module 6 so all this talk about regen tank's being unstoppable are all null the moment these changes come through.
but w/e swordmasters get massive damage buffs so guess you won't have to worry much about TR as much
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
so none of you seem to have looked up that regeneration will no longer work in combat in module 6 so all this talk about regen tank's being unstoppable are all null the moment these changes come through.
but w/e swordmasters get massive damage buffs so guess you won't have to worry much about TR as much
Old thread is ancient-old.
Someone bumped it with a question he spammed in a bunch of unrelated threads too, because he's got a new forum account and couldn't wait to make a thread.
come on seriously?!, GWF is already nerfed like hell cuz all the QQ here like urs.
The only thing we getting is nerf by nerf from every new coming MOD-
the Currently GWF is already broken due the lack of defense and power and a brocken unstoppable.
and with M6 is another nerf comming...
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
come on seriously?!, GWF is already nerfed like hell cuz all the QQ here like urs.
The only thing we getting is nerf by nerf from every new coming MOD-
the Currently GWF is already broken due the lack of defense and power and a brocken unstoppable.
and with M6 is another nerf comming...
You know what they say. "Karma's a ...." well, you know.
But I agree. There are some aspects the GWF has been overly nerfed, and needs to have it rebalanced. Just not in the way the GWF players want (which is usually simply a request to go back to mod2).
Comments
Resilience PvP gear.
I talked about resilience way before the stat "stat_resilience" appeared on preview shard PvP armor, because after playing that other MMO, it seemed natural to me.
I'll explain again how it works:
- introduce PvP items that have Resilience stat
- Resilience stat only working in PvP; it partially replaces things such as crit/power/recovery/ArP on PvP items
- effects of Resilience: reduced player damage against the wearer; crits do not scale to the insane amounts as they do now
- Resilience made almost mandatory for PvP: you don't wear a certain amount of it, you get one-shot. As time passes and players become better etc., they can replace a certain part of PvP gear with PvE gear, but they will still have to wear enough Resilience to guarantee crit severity reduction... or die horribly fast.
This way, devs will be able to fine tune each class damage potential SOLELY for PvP without even touching PvE at all. Also, with this method you not need any nerfs and such.
Also 80% vs 20% PvE vs PvP is... estimation
Many more would PvP if only a ladder/ranking/matchmaking systems were available, so they would play against people with relatively same gear&skills, because as it stands now, you can end up against fully geared PvP premade the very first day you made it to 60, and of course you will hate PvP then.
As stated before, the main issue about sentinels is, usually, the sinergy i explained in the previous post.
Damage is what it is for any other class. Determined by the same stats.
Sentinel tanks in module 2 can have more crit/ ArP thanks to artifacts, allowing them to change some regeneration gear. But the same goes for DPS classes: they can go more tanky (2x waters of el'azad can boost a lot both defense and regeneration) while keeping their offensive setup. So, while sentinels in module 2 got a potential boost in damage, the DPS builds got a potential boost in defense/ regeneration.
As for DPS builds vs tank builds: if you talk about PvP, there's a reason for what you say. In PvE, the DPS difference is massive. Cause, there, what makes the damage is mostly crit and power, since ArP is not needed after 24%.
In PvP, instead, the damage is determined more by ArP than power, and crit difference of some % points can be noticed when you're constantly hitting groups of mobs (PvE), but is marginal in PvP where fights are fast. So, basically, the more power more crit of DPS builds is not of that much help, while the massive constitution= ArP of the tanks is, usually, a better damage boost in PvP.
A DPS build, when going PvP, should, if you ask me, Always use a 2nd gear set based on stacked ArP and defense/ regeneration. For GWFs, for example, the basic PvP set is good. I'll explain later. And make good use of the reduced cooldowns on roar and takedown to keep the sentinel proned more often.
A PvE DPS build is at a disadvantage cause they go to PvP, usually, with PvE gear. And the stats-powers you need for PvP are different than from PvE.
My hybrid has 2 sets: 1 PvE, 1 PvP. The PvE one has 14.7k GS, with more power, more crit, recovery and life steal. The PvP set has more HP, regeneration, and ArP overkill (compared to the PvE requirements), with 13.2k GS. Needless to say, the PvP set, even with a much lower GS, is more effective in PvP compared to the PvE set.
So, if you ask me, you should take into account the fact that PvP and PvE require different stats to build damage.
This goes for gear sets powers too. Aavatar of War full set power, or Berserker ful lset power, are very good for PvE, if you ask me. For PvP, almost useless. On the other side, even the PvP basic set heals you, after module 2 update (now it heals for a certain amount depending on the % of determination, for 8 seconds), for 2k-2.6k average EVERY TIME you go unstoppable. Together with regeneration. And considering you go unstoppable a lot in PvP, you get the idea. The bonus is more useful in PvP than the AoW bonus.
The reason DPS builds are usually less effective in PvE is cause they go PvP the same way they go PvE. But they are 2 very different things.
A very well done PvP DPS build can hurt a lot more than a tank build. I mean, a lot, with comparable gear. Sentinels i've fought don't even come close to such damage.
What must be fixed, as said, is the survivability overkill given by the boost of unstoppable, coming from the loop-sinergy between high HP pool-regeneration-unstoppable (the way it is now). Which, as i explained above, multiplies the efficiency of unstoppable, making it X times more efficient than in DPS builds with less HP. Add also to this that the unstoppable recovery feat is also boosted in high HP tank builds, due to the higher HP pool.
Change determination build from X amount of damage taken, to X% of total HP lost, making sentinel tanks go unstoppable like any other build and not 10 times more, and you see how they will still be tanky, but not that hard to kill.
Couple this with Threat rush spam fixed and DPS builds going to PvP with proper gear/ stats focus, and you'll see the change.
Learn how D&D works (i had to do it, too) then start posting feedback. Not the other way around.
Even if you confront them with logic. their classes are supposed to have it all, while the ones they fail to counter/kill etc. are not.
HR should be able to kite everything infinitely, to the death.
TR should be able to 1 hit everything from stealth.
CW should be able to CC through anti CC.
So why should a PvP GWF be anything but sentinel with those 3 feats? The other specs won't do any more damage and will be a lot squishier. A nerf to sentinel definitely does hurt Destroyers/Instigators, because they are inferior already.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Some builds are better in PvP than PvE. Asking for a specialization to be extremely effective in both PvP and PvE is unreasonable.
For example: Saboteur TR might be good for solo PvE or holding PvP. Oppressor CW is great for PvP but is less asked for in PvE compared to Renegades and Thaumaturges.
So why should Sentinel GWF be top in PvP and still be "great" in PvE? If you want PvE, go Instigator or Destroyer. As long as bugs/exploits are fixed and Sentinel is tweaked to be less "lol deflect everything" alongside high damage, this barely affects the other GWF trees or GWF overall viability in PvE.
My suggested fix? Rather than tinker with Destroyer or Instigator trees, change Master At Arms feat on the Sentinel Tree to tie to Steadfast Determination instead of Weaponmaster and remove the +deflect chance from the feat. That instantly reduces potential damage from a Sentinel and the excessive amounts of deflect they can stack. It doesn't change that they can access Destroyer/Instigator early feats to compensate for the loss of damage, or pick up other Sentinel feats to boost survivability instead, but not have both.
Your thinking seems to be that Sentinels should be great in PvP as well as viable in PvE, when really specializations should mean such.
My Destroyer GWF is perfectly happy to be great in PvE and average/poor in PvP without any points in Sentinel tree.
I actually like this idea because it adds another element to the game. I've played other MMOs where this was a thing. The PvP gear would have different set bonuses (instead of 450 crit, have 2-4% player damage reduction). On top of that have some rings, necks, belts, shirts, and pants that increase damage resistance to other players, or increase damage to other players by a percentage.
Unless you're Warhammer Online (may it rest in peace), you need a bigger separation between PvE and PvP. Optimized gear and stats for each would be good. Your PvP gear should make you better in PvP, but have shortcomings for PvE and vice versa.
A GS ranking system would be helpful too, and maybe a premade queue separate from a pug queue would also be helpful.
Dragon Server
Ragnos Fireborn - 18.7k GWF Half-Elf
Eva Darkblood - 13.8k TR Elf
Venger Force of Evil - 13.7k CW Tiefling
Azaghal Belegost - 16.5k GF Dwarf
Drak'ar - 13.3k HR Drow
Roghthar Darkspawn - 11.5k SW Human
You need to stop comparing the pen and paper to MMO. I too, adore my D&D experience since 2nd edition but this is something entirely different. Also, if you want to stick to your fluff and live by the PhB and DMG, then you should understand that gearing would be vastly different since according to drop rates, Ancient swords (for example) should be wielded by one person. So...yeah...don't even bother comparing apples to oranges.
As far as the discussion about PvE vs PvP effectiveness is concerned, I have to add that it's a bit difficult to understand what most people thing when refering to PvE viability. If you are good at PvE only if you top the damage chart and have the other members of the party telling "Oh my god, AMAZING damage...can I have your autograph", then yes...any balancing wouldn't work.
PvE effectiveness=smooth runs with everyone doing its job towards the goal. MC and VT can be completed even if you don't have a P.Vorpal Destroyer dishing out 40m damage...just saying.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
Are you always just hostile and bitter and add nothing of value to discussions?
Correct me if I'm wrong too, but I don't see Master of Flame or Stormspell as subclasses for a Wizard in 4th, but my knowledge is rusty. Should we remove these too because it's not how D&D works?
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
Well I take no credit for the idea at all. As a pretty decent PvPer in that other MMO (2000+ 2 vs 2), I'm perplexed about PvP in Neverwinter. It just lacks so many things I have taken as a standard before... yet it has much better action combat. So to me things like Diminishing Returns, PvP resilience gear, Dual Spec and proper class balance + matchmaking/ladders are the foundation for a healthy PvP system. What we have now it's so basic for this day&age it's shocking. I suppose in time things will definitely improve, but problem is in time I will probably be playing other MMO.
So I'd like to see these improvements in my time here.
I agree. MMO is one thing, D&D another. This MMO is just D&D flavored, but still primarily an MMO.
Now about the damage.
If people spec for DPS, they deserve to see results. DPS GWFs, HRs, CWs and TRs at same gear/exp/skill should all compete for 1st spot in DPS chart. If one class cannot compete (TRs for example nowadays), then it certainly needs to be "fixed" so it performs in a satisfying way for the player.
I will disagree. Clearly this is not a DPS thing issue. This is a design flaw issue. Since all fights feature countless mobs and people pay attention to trash clearing damage, then it's certain that the best DPS will be the ones that can deal with packs of mobs in seconds. If dungeons were well designed, classes would have a role. In the current situation, only classes that AoE can get to the chart and this is why it shouldn't be used for any reference at all. I mean, since when people started paying attention to trash clearing damage? I understand that some boss fights feature add-handling, but the final 'paingiver' lolsheet comes out from all the trash you've been clearing up to then. So yeah, irrelevant to skills and coordination (the basic ingredients of good PvE groups).
Yes, I suggested way before to improve (IMO) dungeon design and increase viability of melee classes, such as reducing trash, introducing magic immune elites/elites with anti-magic shield vulnerable to physical damage and so on.
People pay attention to the Paingiver screen cause it is shown by the game. To understand damage dealt/DPS in depth, one cannot simply use a game function or a "recount"-type simple addon, they need to download ACT+NWO plugin and play with that, and few do.
So in the end all that remains are those popups the game serves you.
Until the game improves in this department, I believe DPS characters should have their chance to see good results on those charts. And since most of that damage comes from AoEing many adds... what can I say... give classes enough AoE
Again, I know this is just a quickfix and not the true solution.
The true solution is good dungeon design, we both come from that other MMO and we know that very well.
I believe this has been stated many times by many people in many threads that a lot of PvE QoL issues and performance for classes comes from sloppy dungeon design rather than the class itself.
I don't do end game dungeons much, but from what I gather on the forums it sounds like most fights just resort to throwing adds at you every fight which if that's the case then classes designed for AoE will always do better. It sounds like(if that's the case) that they need more mechanics based solo boss fights to let the single target damage dealers (GWF, TR) shine more.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
If they're gonna put stats up at all, it'd be nice if they made it more comprehensive: like damage mitigated, # mobs controlled, # mobs debuffed, damage blocked, time_spent_not_standing_in_the_red_like_a_moron, and so on (the last would be particularly fun to see).
I really do think NW has the potential to be top notch when it comes to PvP based on the action combat system. If cryptic took some pointers for WAR, Aion, SWTOR, and various other games, we could have a phenomenal PvP system with ranked matches, group queues and pug queues (SWTOR), large scale battlegrounds with massive fort takeovers and PvPvE instances (Aion), and tier based open world PvP (WAR).
Cryptic and PWE, if you're listening, can you guys really look into this? You have potential to be something great here.
Dragon Server
Ragnos Fireborn - 18.7k GWF Half-Elf
Eva Darkblood - 13.8k TR Elf
Venger Force of Evil - 13.7k CW Tiefling
Azaghal Belegost - 16.5k GF Dwarf
Drak'ar - 13.3k HR Drow
Roghthar Darkspawn - 11.5k SW Human
You have to take pain giver as what it is, an extremely limited function way of measuring performance.
On a serious note. Sounds like you have a bug. Don't know how to help you with that. You may have to make a ticket.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
but w/e swordmasters get massive damage buffs so guess you won't have to worry much about TR as much
Old thread is ancient-old.
Someone bumped it with a question he spammed in a bunch of unrelated threads too, because he's got a new forum account and couldn't wait to make a thread.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
The only thing we getting is nerf by nerf from every new coming MOD-
the Currently GWF is already broken due the lack of defense and power and a brocken unstoppable.
and with M6 is another nerf comming...
You know what they say. "Karma's a ...." well, you know.
But I agree. There are some aspects the GWF has been overly nerfed, and needs to have it rebalanced. Just not in the way the GWF players want (which is usually simply a request to go back to mod2).
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
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