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Why TR has been made the central focus of PVP since mod 2
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
Let me begin by saying this is not another "balance the TR" thread, I will post one of those, yet again, later. This is to bring some attention to the fact that since mod 2 the TR has been the focus of PVP. As a matter of fact PVP, especially end game PVP premades, is entirely TRcentric. The way PVP works at end game is each team sends their TR to the other teams home node to "Backcap". The game then becomes, as it always has since mod 2 (when "permastealth" TRs became viable), who can wipe their home node faster than the other team and push forward.
The entire reason this occurs is because stealth is THE best defensive mechanism in the game. You can stealth to get to the node, then you can simply run around in stealth for extraordinarily long periods of time, coming out just long enough to refill your stealth bar (and in this mod kill everything on the node as well). This leaves the rest of the team to work on killing the TR at their home node and moving forward from there.
To be quite honest, I wouldn't mind seeing a change to this meta. Like putting a defensive GF, or DC, or both, at the far node (maybe even Paladin next mod). Returning the TR to the assassin role where he/she comes in and executes a particularly annoying foe on a node and floats to the next victim.
Now here is a simple mechanic that could change the entire meta of PVP right now. Code the nodes so that a TR in stealth doesn't contest it. By doing so you don't affect the TR, you aren't making the TR any less lethal or changing their mechanics, you simply change the mechanics of PVP to prevent the "pin the tail on the TR" game that has become PVP, effectively changing their role without touching the class.
There are other methods of achieving this goal that do require changes to the TR class itself but this is a potentially viable PVP mechanic that could end a longstanding (and a bit dated) meta and begin an entirely new era of strategy and PVP game play that requires skill and not just having an all-star TR that can survive forever vs. other teams who do not. I would love to see PVP be about individual players from each class working together and not just revolving around a single class/individual. This would make PVP more team oriented and less about recruiting that one clutch player imho.
As always I'm open to discussion about this topic especially considering the potential changes to PVP that would ensue.
Thanks for your time.
The entire reason this occurs is because stealth is THE best defensive mechanism in the game. You can stealth to get to the node, then you can simply run around in stealth for extraordinarily long periods of time, coming out just long enough to refill your stealth bar (and in this mod kill everything on the node as well). This leaves the rest of the team to work on killing the TR at their home node and moving forward from there.
To be quite honest, I wouldn't mind seeing a change to this meta. Like putting a defensive GF, or DC, or both, at the far node (maybe even Paladin next mod). Returning the TR to the assassin role where he/she comes in and executes a particularly annoying foe on a node and floats to the next victim.
Now here is a simple mechanic that could change the entire meta of PVP right now. Code the nodes so that a TR in stealth doesn't contest it. By doing so you don't affect the TR, you aren't making the TR any less lethal or changing their mechanics, you simply change the mechanics of PVP to prevent the "pin the tail on the TR" game that has become PVP, effectively changing their role without touching the class.
There are other methods of achieving this goal that do require changes to the TR class itself but this is a potentially viable PVP mechanic that could end a longstanding (and a bit dated) meta and begin an entirely new era of strategy and PVP game play that requires skill and not just having an all-star TR that can survive forever vs. other teams who do not. I would love to see PVP be about individual players from each class working together and not just revolving around a single class/individual. This would make PVP more team oriented and less about recruiting that one clutch player imho.
As always I'm open to discussion about this topic especially considering the potential changes to PVP that would ensue.
Thanks for your time.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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Premade PvP is a niche group within a minority. How much effort should be put forth for niche groups?
In your proposal how does one know if a stealthed tr is on node with them if it is not contested?
Or maybe instead of changing the node type games, create a new pvp game setup where it is strickly based on kills.
1) make sure that the map has a trap door under the spawn that drops people into the battle (this is to avoid afk people or point blocking)
I would love to see this type of map over change any of the old types of pvp.
When you stealth your BASE run speed is now equivalent to a GF holding block. If you want to run faster you need to feat accordingly.
Why is it that TRs can outrun epic mounts while they are stealthed? This is part of what makes the class imbalanced is their ability to not JUST stealth or even attack while in stealth but the ability to move around un-catchable and not visible while stealthed.
THey already have amazing burst damage now, all you need to do to make them balanced now is to slow their runspeed down just a fraction while IN stealth. (again on par with a GF blocking).
To be honest it's actually even better this way, since there is at least more or less fight going on the node and someone can die. How do you imagine 2 full heal DCs fighting each other on node? None of them will die ever.
Also it's not that TR is the best in holding bases. It's simply any OP atm class best in doing that (perma-stealth was always OP), and Mod 2-3 GWFs could do that as effective as permas, if not better.
Anyway I think we should wait with this kind of posts till mod 6 release, because it might change a lot...
With the defenses and survival less stable than the levels it is now, for the TR the outcome is simply a 1 rotation slaughter when it is caught with its pants down. Of course, I'm not denying that the TR rarely -- if ever -- is devoid of his trousers, but in the event it does happen, it's anywhere between being near 1-shot by a CAGI to any favorite CW rotation+procs that simply wipes a 40k HP bar like it wasn't even there. Of course, its the same vice versa
So to me, it seems more like a vicious cycle where some class goes over the top in damage, and then the other classes need to go over the top in defense and damage as retaliation, which then needs the first class to get more defense, and on and on and on until all classes are over the top with just BS amounts of damage and basically turns the fight into a 1-shot race.
Like, practically speaking, if the CWs can't just erase the TR existence with 1 rotation, then conversely the TRs would not need to rely on something so broken like ITC or BS stuff like continuation of stealth, and if TRs don't do such ridiculous amount of damage 1-shot, then the other classes wouldn't need to rely so heavily on HP pool... and on and on.
To me, it feels like a mutual "disarmament" of some sort is required. Normalize damage and defenses so people can fight on without the "one mistake and I'm dead situations, like the TR doesn't have such a strong CC immunity... so the CWs can really control it more... but in turn they don't do that 1-rotation mega damage any more... and conversely the TRs also can't 1-shot everything like they do.. and etc etc..
well lets be fair.... we can do it for class features. it's not like they are giving us something for free.
i would LOVE to have damaging class features.
If the TR is stealthed then it won't show as contested and the TR can actually assassinate and fulfill his role but he can't perma contest the node forever in stealth or ITC...
Also, even if PM PVP is a minority, do I not have the right to speak? Please let's refrain from telling the minority they shouldn't be listened to.
Thanks for your reply.
1.state situations where a TR was dangerous while NOT USING broken feats/dailies/stealth
2.state a situation where you COULD NOT kill a tr while out of stealth when the above criteria was met
All i m saying is when shocking is out of the question , when sod bug is fixed ,when a tr plays without +20% stealth meter feat and when a tr w/o armor that gives bonus stealth i dont think you would all have trouble with any TR whatsoever-actually the class is dead then-
SO you have to consider that a TR needs to be dangerous OUT OF STEALTH AS WELL , and i mean SW-dangerous.Plus needs to have more defensive mechanisms besides stealth
3.tell me finally if a rework is done yet again even on a single tree like saboteur WHEN new exploits wont be found from players?
4.what we can do (and i mean as a pvp community) and especially in premade matches is to "Ban" broken feats/dailies/builds/enchants
from EVERY class involved in a certain match (i.e. like we ask each other pre-game not to use pot, we can ask that no flaming enchant will be involved or no shocking exec will be used in that certain match etc . exactly like we do in 1v1 situations sometimes).I mean we despise kickers and exploiters , why shouldnt we despise those things (which NONE of those is a TR's fault btw).Who knows , after that many ppl might change opinion on how a tr is op, or not, but in any case pvp will be more enjoyable for all.
5.I believe that much hypocrisy is there in many of us and I m saying that because most of the pvp community plays with AP cloaks and sigil of DC and those 2 things are the main reason you all think TR is actually OP, even though most of you use it as well.For instance we all hate piercing damage yet we use glyphs , plus i dint see anyone complain on the new piercing damage feats many class have in the coming mod6
I might be wrong for all these of course but thank you for reading
Dont get me wrong , but are you asking for even more damage for your TR? What for ? So you can 1-shot the map after you're done with your rivals ?
Forgot : +1 to OP's suggestion . Should make for a nice thing to try on preview .
there arent many other options.
I couldn't agree more about the TR issue, however here I'm looking to discuss viable alternatives to what is becoming a dusty strategy in PVP. I would be glad to discuss TR issues in another forum post although you may not like what I have to say about Scoundrel stun chains either :P
Thanks for your reply.
either way, the suggestion of OP is nice however to many things to adjust to all classes balancing seems kinda pointless with mod 6 coming up in less then a month.
If the game is strictly based on kills, I'm going to just take a guess here and say that would exacerbate the problem I'm writing about.
Trap door for teams who want to campfire to avoid repetitive massacres to a better geared/premade team? I don't think I'm with you on that one, maybe a forfeit button but certainly not forcing someone to their death over and over.
New maps? Definitely would agree we need new maps.
Thanks for replying.
You should not use such comments mate, i suppose the key word above is "free" and not "damaging class features" .i also suppose we all want to help in finding a way that makes pvp more skill based.Most of all I believe a TR is the one that hates lower-level lesser skilled TR's 1-shotting him so I actually thing that rayrdan (and most TR's for that matter) is on your side now
I couldn't disagree more Barq3t. Right now You simply have to chase a rogue, in stealth, around a node and hope he makes a mistake you can capitalize on... we've done this for 3 mods and are gearing up for a 4th. This is boring. Seeing your opponent and learning to use a team effectively to land rotations or even discovering different combinations of team members may allow different strategies. As it stands if you go into PVP without a TR on your team against a team that has a TR (assuming gear and skill are equal) you've lost. Period.
I would like to remove this as a factor so that you could have a DC or a GF or a Paladin to backcap. Making it there would also be difficult and the struggle at mid to let someone through would become more important. Trust me when I say the entire PVP game mechanic would change from just a simple coding like this.
Thanks for your reply.
Its not like I called him names or anything . And no, he will never be on my side , cuz Im playing a CW (and thats what he hates the most ). Enough with the off-topics tho. What do you think about the OP's suggestion?
First strike?
While my discussion is actually more focused on changing the PVP paradigm, I will diverge for one moment here and say, get rid of the knife's edge/Bloodbath synergy and the TR is toast 2v1. However speed is yet another tool in their Bat Belt of destruction.
Thanks for your reply bro!
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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- A TR who is not stealthed is (most of the time) a dead TR.
- Scoundrel TR's can daze/slow/stun you for over 10 seconds.
- Saboteur, on the other hand, gains the ability to perma stealth IN EXCHANGE for a lack of DPS. They rely on surprise burst damage. So you lose something to get something here.
- Referring to recent posts, if a TR cannot cap a point stealthed, then a GF should not be able to cap while holding a shield, it's only fair.
As stated in recent posts every classes specializes in something. Examples:
GF - Tank
DC - Healer
TR - Assassin
Simple as that. Also, there is no such thing as balance in a game like Neverwinter. Balance is completely based on how each individual person feels about each class. For example, someone who is playing an HR for example, but doesn't know their class too well may find TR hard to kill. That leads them to think that TR is OP. Other HR's will disagree and say they are easy to kill. Personally, as a TR, I often see HRs have no problem killing me, while other HRs are very easy targets. It's all about whether the player knows how to play their class. Gear doesn't even matter that much if a person truly knows their class and how to efficiently use it against others.
In conclusion, no class is OP. There are simply players who know their own class better than players who don't know their own class as well. There is no fix to balance PvP because people will always say "This class is OP" or "This class needs a nerf."
I will try to be kind here, as it's obvious you are unfamiliar with PVP or it's mechanics, or class "balance". Firstly let me say that the only class who says TRs are not OP are TRs. Secondarily let me say that Saboteurs are the highest PVP damage dealers in the game at the moment and I would put up a good sabateur against any tree of any class in a 1v1 and watch the other toons die over and over again. Thirdly, this is not about TRs being OP at the moment, it's about trying to shift the paradigm of an antiquated meta of PVP.
If you try and compare a GF holding a node by fighting and blocking to a TR who simply runs around invisible then I would love to see how you would try and defend a fort or a hill or a bunker. Would you do it with a heavily armored tank, or a single man practiced in the art of guerilla warfare? Rogues are meant to be Opportunists or "Strikers", GF are meant to be guardians or "Defenders", these designs are built into their class descriptions. If you can't understand this, then there is no way to explain PVP to you as its complexities will likely be lost on you.
Thanks for your reply.
As I said it won't be really any improvement to pvp if you just switch a class which will be the best in backcaping. If we can remove TRs from a game - will it change the formula of pvp domination? Wouldn't it still be the most OP class go backcap?
My point is we need some real balance improvement first, and then some big pvp domination mechanic changes (adding more nodes? removing mounts? decreasing movement speed of some classes? slightly bigger maps? some nodes giving more points than others? I dont know...).
About stealth, wouldn't it be better to simply nerf perma-stealth build(it always was and always will be main reason of people flaming on TRs, and it's not really fun to play anyway) instead of changing the way invisibility works on nodes?
I'm all for changing TRs but that's not what this thread was about, it was about changing PVP mechanics. As far as the "most OP class" backcapping, I don't mind that meta, the reason being that at least it will be a fight. Perma stealthing around a node to keep it contested is boring and unintended imho. If TRs would voluntarily lose the Perma-stealth then I wouldn't be writing this particular idea. What I'm trying to do is bypass the normal arguments that "without stealth TR is dead". Fine, then be the stealthy assassin but you don't get to be a stealthy assassin and sit on a node with bait and switch, running speed buffs and ITC so you are nearly unable to be cleared. This is a poor game mechanic and I'm looking for fun, viable alternatives.
Thanks for your reply.
^^ +1 to This, and if the TR blows his rotation by mistake he uses BB + Knife's edge and resets. GG.
The only major difference being that even if a GF or DC or whomever DOES become the "best backcapper" atleast you can SEE them. I remember module 3 and HR was the best due to insane self healing + Emblem. I can confidently say fighting someone that you can atleast SEE - eventhough you cant kill them - was infinitely more enjoyable than fighting a TR you cant even see, and when you can they are immune to damage and CC from ITC.
Swapping this over to a GF would be even MORE ideal since a Conq GF cannot "turtle" very long given they dont have some feats that allow for BOTH stamina gain (block meter) AND damage. So fighting a GF who is trying to turtle a node - he knows he is fighting a losing battle.
Fighting a TR, not only can you not see them, but there is a HIGH chance that they will still kill you.
It makes sense to me that the Tank Class is the best "node holder" and the TR class is the best "assassin".
Also there is the added piece that a GF - for instance - cannot run straight through mid undetected. Where as the tank classes (GF and now Pally) are pretty slow and immobile and can more easily get caught up/CCd at mid. Which creates again yet another fair dichotomy of PVP META.
Actually what you may end up seeing are DCs since they will be able to live a long time with self heals, but even then they know they are fighting a losing battle.
Id rather have the TANK class the best
inspired by this post
propose a new class feature i m curious.
even permastealth is something that i saw first time in neverwinter, until that day i only knew: stealth, attack from stealth--> stealth over visible for rest of fight after hitting hard with one encounter, that was DND for me, but snice i am not a DND pro i am allways able to learn
btw cryptic did u read or hear about warlocks who can throw meteors from sky that stunn everyone for at least 6 seconds, pushes them to the ground and after this slows and silences them, putting a heavy dot to these worms that burn them to hell
u really should get that implemeted in your game, it is a must have....have fun