Because defenders are about survivability of... a party I guess? They defend other team members. Let's back for a second to initial D&D archetypes. Rogue is a flimsy sneaky character, who can bypass enemies. Warrior is about "Come at me, bro!" hack and slash stuff, and he protects Wizard that way, how dishes out massive AoE spells.
So, TR can't do defenders job, because in a very moment when he enters stealth all hell breaks loose on his party members, while GF can keeps mobs busy. HR may act as a defender, but he will be too busy with kiting mobs, so I doubt that he will keep all their agro on him for long.
Besides, my statement didn't imply that Rouge must survive by killing their opponents. As a Thief fan I believe that Rogue must act as a debuffer. He should run around in stealth and cripple things, instead of outDPSing GWFs.
walking the shadow fringe should not be so easy, only high level Shadovars (Shar) and Mask priests should be able to walk without fearing that.
As a tr you should be able to use invisibility (from scrolls or enchants), but that should have a dispel as a counter as you can use it once and flee not run around in shadows. Drow globes of darkness is what a TR should have in use and not total stealth and ofc that should be counter by balls of light or dark vision.
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ikewoodzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 3Arc User
Because defenders are about survivability of... a party I guess? They defend other team members. Let's back for a second to initial D&D archetypes. Rogue is a flimsy sneaky character, who can bypass enemies. Warrior is about "Come at me, bro!" hack and slash stuff, and he protects Wizard that way, how dishes out massive AoE spells.
So, TR can't do defenders job, because in a very moment when he enters stealth all hell breaks loose on his party members, while GF can keeps mobs busy. HR may act as a defender, but he will be too busy with kiting mobs, so I doubt that he will keep all their agro on him for long.
Besides, my statement didn't imply that Rouge must survive by killing their opponents. As a Thief fan I believe that Rogue must act as a debuffer. He should run around in stealth and cripple things, instead of outDPSing GWFs.
This! Right now, TR is the vicious warrior that jumps among the enemy, hacking and slashing, killing things before you can even see them. It shouldn't replace the fighters and you're correct there imho.
Is this a wall of text by TR trying to excuse insanely OP class he plays and possibly most OP pvp class ever introduced into PvP across the last DECADE?
Haven't read it, but I'm pretty sure it is.
And you would be pretty wrong. Often I find it is best to read something before rushing to judgement and posting comments. You are not alone in this, though, as most of the vitriol here is comprised of the same deaf and dumb approach to what is being posted.
The problem that TR'S playing with other nerv, mainly come from TR's player is ho is not this sub classe it this one.
Ok, what ever is. 1 there is many Tr's now in PVP it's not rare to see 40% of TR or more in a fight in pVP.
It's not written in the front of the TR's which sub class he choosed. How ever when it come to fight only Dc and TR's do not require to be on my equipment lvl at least to get a 1Vs1 honest and chanllenging fight. TR's most of them are 15 k PUG with no weapon enchant and still give big resist (way bigger than any other class at same lvl).
Maybe one build stronger than the two other but that doesn't look they are on other's class lvl best pvp build. they are still higher from my view point. How ever, i saw first M6 bonus and meh new daze bonus for TR's when they return in stealth. so daze hen it stike and daze when it escape. Wondering if there is sometime other class will have a chance to fight back especially those who do not have any system to protect from daze
Because defenders are about survivability of... a party I guess? They defend other team members. Let's back for a second to initial D&D archetypes. Rogue is a flimsy sneaky character, who can bypass enemies. Warrior is about "Come at me, bro!" hack and slash stuff, and he protects Wizard that way, how dishes out massive AoE spells.
So, TR can't do defenders job, because in a very moment when he enters stealth all hell breaks loose on his party members, while GF can keeps mobs busy. HR may act as a defender, but he will be too busy with kiting mobs, so I doubt that he will keep all their agro on him for long.
Besides, my statement didn't imply that Rouge must survive by killing their opponents. As a Thief fan I believe that Rogue must act as a debuffer. He should run around in stealth and cripple things, instead of outDPSing GWFs.
I guess he was talkin' also about PvP. In PvP a TR is 10x better at holding a node than any defender. Reason is, DPS inflation and piercing damage fest made heaviliy armored warriors as squishy as a SW, while classes who can fully avoid damage (like TRs) a lot, can survive WAY more in PvP.
Armor and DR should start counting again and stealth should be only 1 tool at TR disposal.
From what i get almost everyone knows the "all in one" TR does not exist, but each path have something that makes it kind of easy mode, at least in PvP.
Perma-dazing someone, OR permastealth, OR oneshotting people/ killing the like this:
The entire class is broken. And you guys divide into 3 broken trees, now pointing fingers at each other. Not wanting your own broken tree to be fixed/nerfed.
"It's not me ! It's the other perma-stealth and SoD double-proccing bugger who's broken !" - said The Scoundrel
"It's not me ! It's that perma-dazing nuissnace and SoD double-proccing bugger who's broken !" - said The Saboeur
"It's not me ! It's that Perma-Dazing nuissance and Perma-Stealther who's broken !" - said The Executionner
this. i have never played an game with such badly made pvp. devs are snail slow. just got chained dazed from 100% hp with full tabbed sheild for around 7 sec. no chance what so ever to figth back. awful game design on every level. trs right now are derp. they are not fun (dont even play mine) have to much of everything and just put the final nail in this game sub par pvp. total waste of time to even try and deny it. its just bad. end of.
this. i have never played an game with such badly made pvp. devs are snail slow. just got chained dazed from 100% hp with full tabbed sheild for around 7 sec. no chance what so ever to figth back. awful game design on every level. trs right now are derp. they are not fun (dont even play mine) have to much of everything and just put the final nail in this game sub par pvp. total waste of time to even try and deny it. its just bad. end of.
Still the devs don't do anything about it.
What is the problem we are the customers so what are you doing for us, we all saying and feeling that the game is dying because were getting tired of this inactivity!
In PvP, the only thing I really think needs adjusted it to make it so you can only have one of a given class per group. This would make it more interesting and fun, instead of being overpowered by a group of the same class all doing the same thing. Once that is set, adjust PvP balance from there, else PvP will always favor premades full of the same class, which is never fun for the average PvPer looking to have fun.
In PvE, TRs are fine. As for PvP, I really don't know because I haven't ever faced just one. I recently experienced the horrors of being the playthings of a group of TRs who are constantly stealthed and dazing me. It's not fun.
In PvE though, I think they're fine. I play primarily PvE though, so take my PvP comment with a grain of salt, as I am not a good PvPer in Neverwinter anyway. Still, I was dazed more than I wasn't and most of the time, I couldn't even see who exactly dazed me to even have a chance to defend against it.
It takes only 1 TR on you to be daze like that and in fact that's what we all complaining about
Just finished a match we were 4 on a 24k TR and I'm 24k and after 4 minutes he still was alive and well with full HP using a lot of daze abilities, stealth and impossible to catch.
A 16K TR just killed me 3 times in a row nothing I can do (daze abilities, stealth and impossible to catch while DPS and he used daily 3 times in less than 3 minutes) and also killed me and another 21K CW on a 2x1 I'm furious it's ridiculous.
I simply don't understand dev inactivity.
We are all very mad and can't take this anymore don't you understand we are to the point of leaving for good.
Just finished a match we were 4 on a 24k TR and I'm 24k and after 4 minutes he still was alive and well with full HP using a lot of daze abilities, stealth and impossible to catch.
I simply don't understand dev inactivity.
We are all very mad and can't take this anymore don't you understand we are to the point of leaving for good.
whooa 24k?
is this the norm for gs in high end pvp now?
Last time I played (nov2014) 17-19k are still acceptable for a TR :rolleyes:
The prob for me now is how to catch up with those *_*
@topic
If you guys just played in preview and complain before it goes live, it really saves the trouble for the players, as well as the mods here.
StrawberryCheesecake TR BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] CheeseCake House
What i wanted to say on my previous post, sir, is an easy lecture: what makes TR-class so powerful that even a 15k exec TR can kill BiS tanks are not most of skills you said, but other ones. Are THOSE skills which makes TR-class so powerful. If you, like Morenthar, think that those skills you said are "the problem", that means that you do not know how to play a TR at all so, then, is perfectly logic that you, as Morenthar does, think that the class is perfectly balanced. The problem is, you are wrong, so SOME of your assumptions are wrong too.
I think you still have problems in understanding the general premise of these postings, because you have a bias against me, or any other TR for that matter. I wouldn't exactly say this general stance to simply antagonize any TR players who would try to reason with the community by portraying them as "liars and fools trying to protect broken stuff" -- even when no such implications were made at all. (I don't know about others, but I actually agreed on most of the nerf calls and yet I'm still getting this treatment. What a life.)
The point is simple:
(1) TRs have individual issues which have problems, these need fixing (such as Sabo piercing and ease of perma, KE feat, Exec 1-shot feats and SoD bug, Scoundrel Concussive Strikes which may have too short cooldown... etc.)
(2) There are global issues, when combined with (1), blows these 'problems' out of proportion and makes TRs simply OP as hell, and these need fixing ASAP(AP cloak, DC artifact, daily spamming)
(3) However, anger-driven nerf calls without looking specifically into which issues affect the PvP scene how, is no different from grabbing the pitchfork and the noose, and then marching the torch-holding mob to the nearest TR and then lynching him by hanging him on a tree.
(4) Therefore, in order to measure more closely on how (1) needs addressing, we must first fix (2) which greatly warps what a TR can do in a first place
Remove the daily spamming from the game, and then we get to work in determining which TRs need to be nerfed to what extent. Currently, with any TR being able to spam dailies at this rate, is like looking a TR through a gigantic magnifying glass. Get rid of that "magnifying glass" - force multiplier first, instead of demanding nerfs based how big the TR looks through the magnifying glass.
(1) TRs have individual issues which have problems, these need fixing (such as Sabo piercing and ease of perma, KE feat, Exec 1-shot feats and SoD bug, Scoundrel Concussive Strikes which may have too short cooldown... etc.)
(2) There are global issues, when combined with (1), blows these 'problems' out of proportion and makes TRs simply OP as hell, and these need fixing ASAP(AP cloak, DC artifact, daily spamming)
(3) However, anger-driven nerf calls without looking specifically into which issues affect the PvP scene how, is no different from grabbing the pitchfork and the noose, and then marching the torch-holding mob to the nearest TR and then lynching him by hanging him on a tree.
(4) Therefore, in order to measure more closely on how (1) needs addressing, we must first fix (2) which greatly warps what a TR can do in a first place
Remove the daily spamming from the game, and then we get to work in determining which TRs need to be nerfed to what extent. Currently, with any TR being able to spam dailies at this rate, is like looking a TR through a gigantic magnifying glass. Get rid of that "magnifying glass" - force multiplier first, instead of demanding nerfs based how big the TR looks through the magnifying glass.
That's all I'm suggesting.
So..... you want to nerf everybody's AP gain ability because of broken TRs in PVP? Ummmmm......... how about no.
So..... you want to nerf everybody's AP gain ability because of broken TRs in PVP? Ummmmm......... how about no.
I thought so, and with no intention of disrespect, it's exactly that kind of double standard which makes TR players angry.
Dailies are special powers, at first designed to be used in frequency allowed through the natural AP gain rate of all classes. In previous mods there were slight buffs possible, usually along the lines of 2~5%. But now, with a legendary grade AP cloak and DC artifact, the average spam time in between dailies is effectively lower than 30 seconds. Give two minutes into a fight and you'd see players spamming dailies 3~4 times.
Nobody is denying that TR dailies are especially powerful, and some of its features need to be addressed. But this is a part of a GLOBAL PROBLEM. Just as it sucks to be on the receiving end of a perma-TR just spamming BB every 30 seconds and killing everyone without even breaking a sweat, it sucks just as much to get caught by double Oppressive Force at the start of the match. It also sucks to have outplayed your opponent and make him waste his daily, but then 15 seconds later he simply uses it again.
Yes, no other class has dailies as strong as the TRs. But that doesn't mean others are fine. To an extent the PvP scene is just as much warped by people flinging dailies on whim.
How do you expect other TRs to agree to even bigger nerf calls, when you yourselves will not agree to getting rid of daily spamming from the game?
This!
Nobody has a problem with gwf dailies or hr dailies or even cw dailies.
But for TRs its their "I win" button with all the other broken <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
So if those are as insignificant as you say, then I'm sure you would have no problems at all if ALL classes were simply limited to their natural AP generation rate during combat, as dailies were first designed, no?
Is it not just as I have pointed out? People know where the TR problems come from. They know that the rate TRs can spam dailies is wrong, and they know what makes it possible. The moment the preview for mod5 opened, TRs immediately took notice of BB and warned the devs, and even the community, that AP artifacts are going to mean serious problems. The moment they announced AP cloaks, again, many players, including TRs warned against it, because it will seriously skewer the game balance as now all classes have access to daily spamming.
...but, of course, now once we're used to it, we sure like spamming or dailies, don't we? :rolleyes:
I thought so, and with no intention of disrespect, it's exactly that kind of double standard which makes TR players angry.
Dailies are special powers, at first designed to be used in frequency allowed through the natural AP gain rate of all classes. In previous mods there were slight buffs possible, usually along the lines of 2~5%. But now, with a legendary grade AP cloak and DC artifact, the average spam time in between dailies is effectively lower than 30 seconds. Give two minutes into a fight and you'd see players spamming dailies 3~4 times.
Nobody is denying that TR dailies are especially powerful, and some of its features need to be addressed. But this is a part of a GLOBAL PROBLEM. Just as it sucks to be on the receiving end of a perma-TR just spamming BB every 30 seconds and killing everyone without even breaking a sweat, it sucks just as much to get caught by double Oppressive Force at the start of the match. It also sucks to have outplayed your opponent and make him waste his daily, but then 15 seconds later he simply uses it again.
Yes, no other class has dailies as strong as the TRs. But that doesn't mean others are fine. To an extent the PvP scene is just as much warped by people flinging dailies on whim.
How do you expect other TRs to agree to even bigger nerf calls, when you yourselves will not agree to getting rid of daily spamming from the game?
If you want to propose something like "AP Gain Depression" for PVP, analogous to Healing Depression, then that's fine.
But don't you dare touch my DC Artifact for PVE.
Just one example of where it is incredibly useful in PVE: For DC's, since AP Gain during Hallowed Ground has been nerfed, DC's get zero AP gain while HG is active. So in Tiamat, during the heads phase, I will cast HG at the first head, then activate the DC artifact. By time the head is down to 20%, my HG daily is up again, and ready to be used at the second head. And HG is the biggest team buff that a DC can provide for the team. And, since I play a buff/debuff/DPS DC, *that's my job*.
So you want to nerf my DC - who, by the way, has never even set foot in a PVP Domination match - for the sake of your broken TR in PVP? The answer is no.
Blah blah… the problem of TR dailies is not that you can spam them more frequent than in previous mods, the problem with TR dailies are …*surprise*surprise* TR dailies.
Broken BB shi1t with reducing cds
Broken SE <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in combination of almost undodgable dazes.
Fix that and nobody has a problem with TR dailies.
Thread done.
If you want to propose something like "AP Gain Depression" for PVP, analogous to Healing Depression, then that's fine.
But don't you dare touch my DC Artifact for PVE.
Just one example of where it is incredibly useful in PVE: For DC's, since AP Gain during Hallowed Ground has been nerfed, DC's get zero AP gain while HG is active. So in Tiamat, during the heads phase, I will cast HG at the first head, then activate the DC artifact. By time the head is down to 20%, my HG daily is up again, and ready to be used at the second head. And HG is the biggest team buff that a DC can provide for the team. And, since I play a buff/debuff/DPS DC, *that's my job*.
So you want to nerf my DC - who, by the way, has never even set foot in a PVP Domination match - for the sake of your broken TR in PVP? The answer is no.
That's not unreasonable. Although in terms of principle nothing's different between PvE and PvP, and things should be consistent. But of course, AI controlled mobs don't complain, and it would at least serve as an interim solution, to simply reduce AP gain rate in PvP.
Blah blah… the problem of TR dailies is not that you can spam them more frequent than in previous mods, the problem with TR dailies are …*surprise*surprise* TR dailies.
Broken BB shi1t with reducing cds
Broken SE <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in combination of almost undodgable dazes.
Fix that and nobody has a problem with TR dailies.
Thread done.
Daily spamming is lame, no matter which class does it. There's a difference in the scope of the problem, that's for sure, but to an extent being hit with dailies in a short interval of time which is never supposed to happen, sucks for anyone.
TR dailies aren't the problem when it's frequency is limited to what once was. KE reducing CD? SE hitting for a ton of damage? Not much problem when it happens only once in a while. After all, TR's have the lowest rate of AP generation since their number of attacks itself are limited due to stealth restrictions and such.
If you truly think the frequency of dailies aren't a problem, then I'm sure the other players would then stop complaining once the KE recharge reduction is removed. So we can still spam BB and SE every 30 seconds and get as much easy kills as now, but then none of you should ever complain about how this is broken, right?
I thought so, and with no intention of disrespect, it's exactly that kind of double standard which makes TR players angry.
Dailies are special powers, at first designed to be used in frequency allowed through the natural AP gain rate of all classes. In previous mods there were slight buffs possible, usually along the lines of 2~5%. But now, with a legendary grade AP cloak and DC artifact, the average spam time in between dailies is effectively lower than 30 seconds. Give two minutes into a fight and you'd see players spamming dailies 3~4 times.
Nobody is denying that TR dailies are especially powerful, and some of its features need to be addressed. But this is a part of a GLOBAL PROBLEM. Just as it sucks to be on the receiving end of a perma-TR just spamming BB every 30 seconds and killing everyone without even breaking a sweat, it sucks just as much to get caught by double Oppressive Force at the start of the match. It also sucks to have outplayed your opponent and make him waste his daily, but then 15 seconds later he simply uses it again.
Yes, no other class has dailies as strong as the TRs. But that doesn't mean others are fine. To an extent the PvP scene is just as much warped by people flinging dailies on whim.
How do you expect other TRs to agree to even bigger nerf calls, when you yourselves will not agree to getting rid of daily spamming from the game?
The problem with what you are assuming is that it only due to one equipment. it's absolutly false. because you are assuming the TR's problem only goes with 24 k full stuff player. the problem remain the same with 14-15 k TR without any artifact cloak that are making even match with 19-20 k of other class. not every one is equiped with legendary cloak artifact.
So of course asking to suppress a power for everyone is not welcome since it will not solve anything (maybe on BIS player but probably not)
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azahronMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2Arc User
In PvP, the only thing I really think needs adjusted it to make it so you can only have one of a given class per group. This would make it more interesting and fun, instead of being overpowered by a group of the same class all doing the same thing. Once that is set, adjust PvP balance from there, else PvP will always favor premades full of the same class, which is never fun for the average PvPer looking to have fun.
In PvE, TRs are fine. As for PvP, I really don't know because I haven't ever faced just one. I recently experienced the horrors of being the playthings of a group of TRs who are constantly stealthed and dazing me. It's not fun.
In PvE though, I think they're fine. I play primarily PvE though, so take my PvP comment with a grain of salt, as I am not a good PvPer in Neverwinter anyway. Still, I was dazed more than I wasn't and most of the time, I couldn't even see who exactly dazed me to even have a chance to defend against it.
That matches my experiences. Of course the only PvP I do these days is the occasional Gauntlgrym match, I gave up on the regular PvP queue long ago as playing the role of punching bag got old very quickly.
The problem with what you are assuming is that it only due to one equipment. it's absolutly false. because you are assuming the TR's problem only goes with 24 k full stuff player.
No, you're assuming that I blame only the equipment because you yourself assume that I want to 'defend' something, when as a matter of fact I've alread, repeatedly, explained that the AP-item issues are what amplifies an existing problem. Never have I, for once, mentioned in any of my posts or threads that everything is going to be fine if the abnormal AP gain was fixed. Please do read again carefully, without preconceptions or bias just because I'm a TR talking here.
I said getting rid of the abnormal AP gains, hence stopping the daily spams of all classes, was the immediate task at hand, not the last.
the problem remain the same with 14-15 k TR without any artifact cloak that are making even match with 19-20 k of other class. not every one is equiped with legendary cloak artifact.
So of course asking to suppress a power for everyone is not welcome since it will not solve anything (maybe on BIS player but probably not)
Like others in this thread, you are putting words in my mouth when I have never said such, or implied such. You assume I want only the AP artifacts fixed, but all the rest of the TR remain the same.
Lol mirrorballs, next they will accuse you of asking for buffs!
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2015
This thread is closed since the OP cannot refrain from discussing moderation in here and even worse, stating that they are prohibited from using a word when in fact they were merely asked to "tone it down."
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl PWE Community Moderator
Comments
walking the shadow fringe should not be so easy, only high level Shadovars (Shar) and Mask priests should be able to walk without fearing that.
As a tr you should be able to use invisibility (from scrolls or enchants), but that should have a dispel as a counter as you can use it once and flee not run around in shadows. Drow globes of darkness is what a TR should have in use and not total stealth and ofc that should be counter by balls of light or dark vision.
This! Right now, TR is the vicious warrior that jumps among the enemy, hacking and slashing, killing things before you can even see them. It shouldn't replace the fighters and you're correct there imho.
And you would be pretty wrong. Often I find it is best to read something before rushing to judgement and posting comments. You are not alone in this, though, as most of the vitriol here is comprised of the same deaf and dumb approach to what is being posted.
Ok, what ever is. 1 there is many Tr's now in PVP it's not rare to see 40% of TR or more in a fight in pVP.
It's not written in the front of the TR's which sub class he choosed. How ever when it come to fight only Dc and TR's do not require to be on my equipment lvl at least to get a 1Vs1 honest and chanllenging fight. TR's most of them are 15 k PUG with no weapon enchant and still give big resist (way bigger than any other class at same lvl).
Maybe one build stronger than the two other but that doesn't look they are on other's class lvl best pvp build. they are still higher from my view point. How ever, i saw first M6 bonus and meh new daze bonus for TR's when they return in stealth. so daze hen it stike and daze when it escape. Wondering if there is sometime other class will have a chance to fight back especially those who do not have any system to protect from daze
I guess he was talkin' also about PvP. In PvP a TR is 10x better at holding a node than any defender. Reason is, DPS inflation and piercing damage fest made heaviliy armored warriors as squishy as a SW, while classes who can fully avoid damage (like TRs) a lot, can survive WAY more in PvP.
Armor and DR should start counting again and stealth should be only 1 tool at TR disposal.
From what i get almost everyone knows the "all in one" TR does not exist, but each path have something that makes it kind of easy mode, at least in PvP.
Perma-dazing someone, OR permastealth, OR oneshotting people/ killing the like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu8X-bll7aQ
is something that should not happen.
this. i have never played an game with such badly made pvp. devs are snail slow. just got chained dazed from 100% hp with full tabbed sheild for around 7 sec. no chance what so ever to figth back. awful game design on every level. trs right now are derp. they are not fun (dont even play mine) have to much of everything and just put the final nail in this game sub par pvp. total waste of time to even try and deny it. its just bad. end of.
Still the devs don't do anything about it.
What is the problem we are the customers so what are you doing for us, we all saying and feeling that the game is dying because were getting tired of this inactivity!
It takes only 1 TR on you to be daze like that and in fact that's what we all complaining about
A 16K TR just killed me 3 times in a row nothing I can do (daze abilities, stealth and impossible to catch while DPS and he used daily 3 times in less than 3 minutes) and also killed me and another 21K CW on a 2x1 I'm furious it's ridiculous.
I simply don't understand dev inactivity.
We are all very mad and can't take this anymore don't you understand we are to the point of leaving for good.
whooa 24k?
is this the norm for gs in high end pvp now?
Last time I played (nov2014) 17-19k are still acceptable for a TR :rolleyes:
The prob for me now is how to catch up with those *_*
@topic
If you guys just played in preview and complain before it goes live, it really saves the trouble for the players, as well as the mods here.
BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
CheeseCake House
I think you still have problems in understanding the general premise of these postings, because you have a bias against me, or any other TR for that matter. I wouldn't exactly say this general stance to simply antagonize any TR players who would try to reason with the community by portraying them as "liars and fools trying to protect broken stuff" -- even when no such implications were made at all. (I don't know about others, but I actually agreed on most of the nerf calls and yet I'm still getting this treatment. What a life.)
The point is simple:
(1) TRs have individual issues which have problems, these need fixing (such as Sabo piercing and ease of perma, KE feat, Exec 1-shot feats and SoD bug, Scoundrel Concussive Strikes which may have too short cooldown... etc.)
(2) There are global issues, when combined with (1), blows these 'problems' out of proportion and makes TRs simply OP as hell, and these need fixing ASAP(AP cloak, DC artifact, daily spamming)
(3) However, anger-driven nerf calls without looking specifically into which issues affect the PvP scene how, is no different from grabbing the pitchfork and the noose, and then marching the torch-holding mob to the nearest TR and then lynching him by hanging him on a tree.
(4) Therefore, in order to measure more closely on how (1) needs addressing, we must first fix (2) which greatly warps what a TR can do in a first place
Remove the daily spamming from the game, and then we get to work in determining which TRs need to be nerfed to what extent. Currently, with any TR being able to spam dailies at this rate, is like looking a TR through a gigantic magnifying glass. Get rid of that "magnifying glass" - force multiplier first, instead of demanding nerfs based how big the TR looks through the magnifying glass.
That's all I'm suggesting.
So..... you want to nerf everybody's AP gain ability because of broken TRs in PVP? Ummmmm......... how about no.
This!
Nobody has a problem with gwf dailies or hr dailies or even cw dailies.
But for TRs its their "I win" button with all the other broken <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
I thought so, and with no intention of disrespect, it's exactly that kind of double standard which makes TR players angry.
Dailies are special powers, at first designed to be used in frequency allowed through the natural AP gain rate of all classes. In previous mods there were slight buffs possible, usually along the lines of 2~5%. But now, with a legendary grade AP cloak and DC artifact, the average spam time in between dailies is effectively lower than 30 seconds. Give two minutes into a fight and you'd see players spamming dailies 3~4 times.
Nobody is denying that TR dailies are especially powerful, and some of its features need to be addressed. But this is a part of a GLOBAL PROBLEM. Just as it sucks to be on the receiving end of a perma-TR just spamming BB every 30 seconds and killing everyone without even breaking a sweat, it sucks just as much to get caught by double Oppressive Force at the start of the match. It also sucks to have outplayed your opponent and make him waste his daily, but then 15 seconds later he simply uses it again.
Yes, no other class has dailies as strong as the TRs. But that doesn't mean others are fine. To an extent the PvP scene is just as much warped by people flinging dailies on whim.
How do you expect other TRs to agree to even bigger nerf calls, when you yourselves will not agree to getting rid of daily spamming from the game?
So if those are as insignificant as you say, then I'm sure you would have no problems at all if ALL classes were simply limited to their natural AP generation rate during combat, as dailies were first designed, no?
Is it not just as I have pointed out? People know where the TR problems come from. They know that the rate TRs can spam dailies is wrong, and they know what makes it possible. The moment the preview for mod5 opened, TRs immediately took notice of BB and warned the devs, and even the community, that AP artifacts are going to mean serious problems. The moment they announced AP cloaks, again, many players, including TRs warned against it, because it will seriously skewer the game balance as now all classes have access to daily spamming.
...but, of course, now once we're used to it, we sure like spamming or dailies, don't we? :rolleyes:
If you want to propose something like "AP Gain Depression" for PVP, analogous to Healing Depression, then that's fine.
But don't you dare touch my DC Artifact for PVE.
Just one example of where it is incredibly useful in PVE: For DC's, since AP Gain during Hallowed Ground has been nerfed, DC's get zero AP gain while HG is active. So in Tiamat, during the heads phase, I will cast HG at the first head, then activate the DC artifact. By time the head is down to 20%, my HG daily is up again, and ready to be used at the second head. And HG is the biggest team buff that a DC can provide for the team. And, since I play a buff/debuff/DPS DC, *that's my job*.
So you want to nerf my DC - who, by the way, has never even set foot in a PVP Domination match - for the sake of your broken TR in PVP? The answer is no.
Broken BB shi1t with reducing cds
Broken SE <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in combination of almost undodgable dazes.
Fix that and nobody has a problem with TR dailies.
Thread done.
That's not unreasonable. Although in terms of principle nothing's different between PvE and PvP, and things should be consistent. But of course, AI controlled mobs don't complain, and it would at least serve as an interim solution, to simply reduce AP gain rate in PvP.
Daily spamming is lame, no matter which class does it. There's a difference in the scope of the problem, that's for sure, but to an extent being hit with dailies in a short interval of time which is never supposed to happen, sucks for anyone.
TR dailies aren't the problem when it's frequency is limited to what once was. KE reducing CD? SE hitting for a ton of damage? Not much problem when it happens only once in a while. After all, TR's have the lowest rate of AP generation since their number of attacks itself are limited due to stealth restrictions and such.
If you truly think the frequency of dailies aren't a problem, then I'm sure the other players would then stop complaining once the KE recharge reduction is removed. So we can still spam BB and SE every 30 seconds and get as much easy kills as now, but then none of you should ever complain about how this is broken, right?
The problem with what you are assuming is that it only due to one equipment. it's absolutly false. because you are assuming the TR's problem only goes with 24 k full stuff player. the problem remain the same with 14-15 k TR without any artifact cloak that are making even match with 19-20 k of other class. not every one is equiped with legendary cloak artifact.
So of course asking to suppress a power for everyone is not welcome since it will not solve anything (maybe on BIS player but probably not)
That matches my experiences. Of course the only PvP I do these days is the occasional Gauntlgrym match, I gave up on the regular PvP queue long ago as playing the role of punching bag got old very quickly.
No, you're assuming that I blame only the equipment because you yourself assume that I want to 'defend' something, when as a matter of fact I've alread, repeatedly, explained that the AP-item issues are what amplifies an existing problem. Never have I, for once, mentioned in any of my posts or threads that everything is going to be fine if the abnormal AP gain was fixed. Please do read again carefully, without preconceptions or bias just because I'm a TR talking here.
I said getting rid of the abnormal AP gains, hence stopping the daily spams of all classes, was the immediate task at hand, not the last.
Like others in this thread, you are putting words in my mouth when I have never said such, or implied such. You assume I want only the AP artifacts fixed, but all the rest of the TR remain the same.
But that's not what I said, is it?
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
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