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The mystery of the "high damage + permastealth + chain-dazes you"
mirrorballs
Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
Sirs, for a long time there has been rumors spreading of a seemingly fantastic, mythical creature called; "The All in One" TR. Supposedly, this TR has high damage attacks, can chain-daze you for long periods of time, but still remain in permastealth. Usually reports of sightings of this creature, are limited to misinformation from many people who would complain about TRs, but like all legends and cryptoids are, it does have a ring of truth to it -- more than you may know.
Every time someone gets hit with chain-dazes, they come to these boards and starts complaining about us Scoundrel TRs... as if we're the "all-in-one" TR of myths and legends. Frankly I'm a bit sick of this, and seeing how this misconception is spread through people who just don't know how TRs work out, I've decided to write this little guide as to the truth behind what you are seeing.
What you are actually seeing, are not Scoundrels in the most part, but rather Sabos in truth.
It would be interesting for you to note that the Sabos actually make better use of more chain-dazes than most Scoundrels, (since most Scoundrels in PvP are MIs, anyway).
I've explained it in some other thread, but in terms of combat it's got everything to do with just how improperly overbuffed Shadow Strike was. Seriously speaking, nobody expected this power to change so drastically for. It was sort of like an unexpected gift the devs threw us TRs, which we're all gateful for, except it turned out to be more than just "2 extra seconds".
To make a long story short, Scoundrels - both MI and WK - can't really utilize SS as a daze or chain-daze power, because we need the SS as a very important insurance for survival. I've explained this many times but us Scoundrels make a habit of attacking someone when they are under effects of CC, because that's the only way to bring up our initially much lower damage than the other TRs.
We don't have any other damage buffs like Execs or Sabos that apply persistently with every attack. We've got Low Blows and Skull Cracker which applies only on CCs - hence, for any successful Scoundrel, it is imperative that we attack on CC.
Of course, that means "no more stealth". Be it at-wills or encounters, attacking someone while dazed will force us out of stealth 9 times out of 10. For one thing, the Skull Cracker effect itself requires an offensive encounter to land on the target. That means stealth is consumed at that moment where SC begins. It's all fine and dandy if its a guaranteed 1vs1... but what happens if another enemy jumps into the fray? That's why we can't simply choose to throw SS as a chain-daze tool.
...
Now, interestingly, things are different for a Sabo. Usually what the MI Sabo is armed with, is ITC/DS/SS + CoS/DF (...or CoS/GC), and the fight usually goes like this.
....
Compared to this, a MI Scoundrel actually cannot fight like that even with the assistance of Concussive Strikes, because he cannot use SS like that. It always needs to be conserved. A typical MI Scoundrel can maybe do two daze extensions at most, at a given time, because as a MI his loadout is actually limited. That's actually MI Sabos doing more dazing and much higher damage in the process than a MI Scoundrel.
WK Scoundrels are different, and WK Scoundrels can match that amount of dazes if played really well, but then the damage is incomparable to what a Sabo can put up, as well as the absence of ITC makes dazing (and this coming out of stealth) a double-edged sword which needs to be used carefully. In case of the Sabo, the difference is that he's doing almost the same amount of dazing as a Scoundrel, but in most of the process he is in perma.
It's one of the reasons why I'd suggest to the devs to revert SS back to 2 seconds, or even entirely remove daze from SS. This is the main culprit which makes Sabos basically an even stronger version of Scoundrels with as much chain-dazing and higher hitting power, coupled with permastealth on the top. Does this sound familiar? Bingo. You have your mystery TR.
This is actually what the people are seeing when they say they've met a merciless high-damage TR that's in permastealth and chain-dazes you all the time. They're seeing Sabos using daze tactics with piercing damage and permastealth. Usually one or two rotations of the above, and then they also get 100% AP if they have the AP cloak. `
The reason this setup is not as popular and abundant in the PvP scene, is because it does take good timing and generally very aggressive stance to make it work. Most Sabo TRs would rather slot in smokebomb for either team purposes, or because they're not skilled/trained enough to make the attack sequences like clock-work. Meaning: the Sabo can be played more lazily and passively and still be able to gain kills in average PuG level domination matches, so they don't really need to use something like this in most cases. Especially now that the proliferation of AP artifact cloaks are making things even easier for TRs, and more and more TR players are lured into playing lazily.
There you have it. So please, the next time you meet a high-damage, permastealthed TR that seems to daze you all the time, please point the fingers to the Sabos, and not us Scoundrels, and please do suggest that the daze on SS gets removed, because this simple 4 second daze is what's making you get hit by full 3 seconds of BB or unable to dodge an incoming SE.
Every time someone gets hit with chain-dazes, they come to these boards and starts complaining about us Scoundrel TRs... as if we're the "all-in-one" TR of myths and legends. Frankly I'm a bit sick of this, and seeing how this misconception is spread through people who just don't know how TRs work out, I've decided to write this little guide as to the truth behind what you are seeing.
What you are actually seeing, are not Scoundrels in the most part, but rather Sabos in truth.
It would be interesting for you to note that the Sabos actually make better use of more chain-dazes than most Scoundrels, (since most Scoundrels in PvP are MIs, anyway).
I've explained it in some other thread, but in terms of combat it's got everything to do with just how improperly overbuffed Shadow Strike was. Seriously speaking, nobody expected this power to change so drastically for. It was sort of like an unexpected gift the devs threw us TRs, which we're all gateful for, except it turned out to be more than just "2 extra seconds".
To make a long story short, Scoundrels - both MI and WK - can't really utilize SS as a daze or chain-daze power, because we need the SS as a very important insurance for survival. I've explained this many times but us Scoundrels make a habit of attacking someone when they are under effects of CC, because that's the only way to bring up our initially much lower damage than the other TRs.
We don't have any other damage buffs like Execs or Sabos that apply persistently with every attack. We've got Low Blows and Skull Cracker which applies only on CCs - hence, for any successful Scoundrel, it is imperative that we attack on CC.
Of course, that means "no more stealth". Be it at-wills or encounters, attacking someone while dazed will force us out of stealth 9 times out of 10. For one thing, the Skull Cracker effect itself requires an offensive encounter to land on the target. That means stealth is consumed at that moment where SC begins. It's all fine and dandy if its a guaranteed 1vs1... but what happens if another enemy jumps into the fray? That's why we can't simply choose to throw SS as a chain-daze tool.
...
Now, interestingly, things are different for a Sabo. Usually what the MI Sabo is armed with, is ITC/DS/SS + CoS/DF (...or CoS/GC), and the fight usually goes like this.
- The Sabo starts the attack with DS from stealth, which, as you folks know, will not consume stealth due to the Sabo capstone OWTS. That's 4 seconds of daze right there.
- While in stealth, the Sabo will hit you with his at-wills, which of course, deals merciless damage with the Shadowy Opportunity feat. Even CoS hits for average 2.5k per pop (700~800 base + 1.8k piercing). With 3~4 attacks from at-wills, the Sabo stealth is about to be depleted, but guess what, bam! SS.
- His stealth is refreshed, and that's another 4 seconds of daze for a total 8 seconds
- Sabo loosens back and spends a bit of time saving his stealth. With a moderate amount of recharge stat Dazing Strike takes around 8~9 seconds, so during this 2nd stealth, DS recharges
- bam! Another DS shot from stealth, 3rd extension of daze, for a total of 12 now
- At this point his SS has around 8~9 seconds to go. You are dazed due to the last DS that hit you. When your daze is about to finish, he goes into ITC.
- During duration of ITC, his SS recharges. During this time his OWTS is also finished recharging and ready to be used again
- Return to top, repeat process. Two or three repetition of this process will now also give him 100% AP, if he has the artifact AP cloak
....
Compared to this, a MI Scoundrel actually cannot fight like that even with the assistance of Concussive Strikes, because he cannot use SS like that. It always needs to be conserved. A typical MI Scoundrel can maybe do two daze extensions at most, at a given time, because as a MI his loadout is actually limited. That's actually MI Sabos doing more dazing and much higher damage in the process than a MI Scoundrel.
WK Scoundrels are different, and WK Scoundrels can match that amount of dazes if played really well, but then the damage is incomparable to what a Sabo can put up, as well as the absence of ITC makes dazing (and this coming out of stealth) a double-edged sword which needs to be used carefully. In case of the Sabo, the difference is that he's doing almost the same amount of dazing as a Scoundrel, but in most of the process he is in perma.
It's one of the reasons why I'd suggest to the devs to revert SS back to 2 seconds, or even entirely remove daze from SS. This is the main culprit which makes Sabos basically an even stronger version of Scoundrels with as much chain-dazing and higher hitting power, coupled with permastealth on the top. Does this sound familiar? Bingo. You have your mystery TR.
This is actually what the people are seeing when they say they've met a merciless high-damage TR that's in permastealth and chain-dazes you all the time. They're seeing Sabos using daze tactics with piercing damage and permastealth. Usually one or two rotations of the above, and then they also get 100% AP if they have the AP cloak. `
The reason this setup is not as popular and abundant in the PvP scene, is because it does take good timing and generally very aggressive stance to make it work. Most Sabo TRs would rather slot in smokebomb for either team purposes, or because they're not skilled/trained enough to make the attack sequences like clock-work. Meaning: the Sabo can be played more lazily and passively and still be able to gain kills in average PuG level domination matches, so they don't really need to use something like this in most cases. Especially now that the proliferation of AP artifact cloaks are making things even easier for TRs, and more and more TR players are lured into playing lazily.
There you have it. So please, the next time you meet a high-damage, permastealthed TR that seems to daze you all the time, please point the fingers to the Sabos, and not us Scoundrels, and please do suggest that the daze on SS gets removed, because this simple 4 second daze is what's making you get hit by full 3 seconds of BB or unable to dodge an incoming SE.
Post edited by mirrorballs on
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Comments
"It's not me ! It's the other perma-stealth and SoD double-proccing bugger who's broken !" - said The Scoundrel
"It's not me ! It's that perma-dazing nuissnace and SoD double-proccing bugger who's broken !" - said The Saboeur
"It's not me ! It's that Perma-Dazing nuissance and Perma-Stealther who's broken !" - said The Executionner
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
It could be hilarious, sir, but that does not make it any less true.
Most often people who do not play TRs aren't too keen on just where the borderline is set for those limits, and through this post I intended to make it clear. It kinda sucks to be blamed for stuff you're not doing, just because you have the same blue pointy badge in front of your name in the team list
(ps) ....
Also, if you do find it not very convincing and simply hilarious, then I figure another laugh in the forums is not such a bad thing considering all these crazy, furious reactions blazing across the boards.
In PvE, TRs are fine. As for PvP, I really don't know because I haven't ever faced just one. I recently experienced the horrors of being the playthings of a group of TRs who are constantly stealthed and dazing me. It's not fun.
In PvE though, I think they're fine. I play primarily PvE though, so take my PvP comment with a grain of salt, as I am not a good PvPer in Neverwinter anyway. Still, I was dazed more than I wasn't and most of the time, I couldn't even see who exactly dazed me to even have a chance to defend against it.
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The class is far from broken, TR's are simply no longer as easy to faceroll in PvP as they used to be. There seems to be this strange gap where people claim any class is broken when things change. I have 60's of each class and there have been different points where each of them was THE broken class in PvP (well, except for SW's). It wasn't a question of the class being broken but people not having learned new tactics or been willing to try them.
A Premade of all TR's when they are communicating well is nearly impossible to beat unless your team is also communicating well and coordinating AoE's.
I can assure you that even at high-end PVP. The TR has a large gap compared to other classes.
It needs a severe tone down. The other classes are *close* to be equal, but TR is on another level.
It is the *only* class that can 1v2 at high-end. It lasts even longer than a PROTECTOR GF, which is supposed to be a "Tank".
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Everybody has enough of the insane TR daze everybody is complaining about it and after more than a mount that's all you have to say?
Wow are we really going nowhere with our numerous threads, do you at cryptic really want us to leave the game because we all getting sick of this kind of nonsense every PVPers knows TR is way to OP and that something as to be done and daze is probably the major frustrating problem.
Got to disagree.Its been a while more than 2 months the complains are still coming, if it was just a new mechanics everything would have calmed down by now. How much time do you expect people to learn, 2 years? Oh wait the game is that old.
...and those are all Saboteuers, sir.
Then you haven't meet the defensive Scoundrels who are capable of holding a node using Perma-Stealth (Yes, a Scoundrel using perma-stealth). Combine that with the High Deflect and the dazes and the use of a certain enchant to daze an entire team and you have it, something as broken as the two other trees. Most Scoundrels are predictable with their little smoke bomb, deft strike... duelist's flurry.. etc etc. But a node-holding Scoundrel is as dangerous as the two other trees.
The whole class is a problem right now, they got too much perks, and now with the upcoming module 6 changes, the difficulty to play and master a TR will be even lower.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
adjective
1. existing perpetually; everlasting, especially without significant change.
2. intended to exist or function for a long, indefinite period without regard to unforeseeable conditions:
"a permanent employee; the permanent headquarters of the United Nations."
3. long-lasting or nonfading:
"permanent pleating; permanent ink."
Unless you are pointing directly at definition 3 of the adjective then there is no such thing as "permastealth" or "permadaze". I might as well say "fighters have permasheild up", or "clerics have permaheal" then.
It fades. It departs. You CAN kill TRs, and I have the PvP death record to prove it.
BESIDES! Who says the Rogue always has to hold the node? We're not tanks! :mad: We should be out there .... doing ninja stuff.
Another dead horse subject.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Just looking at the kill vs deth ratio of a TR about 10 for 1 and we all see that your not credible
If you need a good CW that only plays PVP and has over 13000 kill since the beginning of Tiamat just ask and I will prove to you that TR daze as to be nerf at least 75%, put me against any decent 20k plus TR specially Scoundrel.
I think all daze effects should be cut down to a maximum of 1 to 2 seconds on players and also have a cooldown of 6 to 8 seconds on the player that has been daze.
I also think that Impossible to Catch immunities time should be 50% shorter in PVP.
In my opinion that could be an easy thing to do and a good start for balancing the class for PVP.
Sir, I probably haven't met them because it's systematically impossible. With no disrespect, sir, in this case I'm quite certain that it is either one of; (a) you are mistaken on just what type of TR it is, or (b) there is a bit of exaggeration. For one thing, even with BnS slotted in it's physically impossible to come up with a rotation that allows you to stay in stealth indefinitely.
I'm pretty certain you mean semipermas, which is a more likely scenario.
Otherwise, the only other explanation would simply be with the "origin of all evils" that I consider to be, which is of course, AP-gear (what else?
Oh I don't doubt, or deny there are problems, sir. But just to what extent those problems reach, are different with each build, each path, and each paragon. Hence, they cannot be smothered up with a 'blanket statement' of demands that would seek to nerf or rebalance the TR as a whole. It requires a bit more insight, and that, would be the point of probably every single thread/post I write in these forums as of yet.
Us TRs (at least those who tend to agree with me) are simply hoping that the frustrations and difficulties in dealing with problems do not deprive others of their ability to reason.
(ps) in case of the 'enchantment' you've mentioned, I confess I do not know of this fact, and I do not wish to know it, since it simply sounds like another bug/exploit the premade group of people have discovered, and for obvious reasons keeping it to themselves in hopes that broken exploits are never fixed and always available for their own, immoral use.
All I can hope for is at least you, or any other would-be victims of this broken bug, report it to the devs immediately and pray it does not spread to others... though I think I have a pretty good idea on what it may be.
You want a video proof of how wrong you are?
No hate but you just lost credibility now.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Sir, that doesn't balance anything for PvP. It simply destroys the path as to make it victims for any class with any kind of CC -- particularly those armed with ranged CCs. I'm very worried as to the results you seek through such suggestions do not serve any other purpose than to somehow fill your personal need for revenge on a class you hate. I don't find this to be very constructive, sir.
I do not want you to be upset, nor do I want to belittle you in any way.. and that being said, sir, I know who you are in-game, and I've often met and defeated you as a Scoundrel myself, sir. I know you to be a decent player, but truthfully and very honestly speaking your general tactics and habits as a CW do fall a notch or two below some of the premade level of CWs I've met and fought against, whom I often meet troubles against, and generally the fight is around 5:5 and very well balanced when I fight them.
Now, I admit, sir, that I myself am not as good a player as those CWs in premade level, who are many times better players than I, and the very fact I have maybe 50:50 chance probably means that the TR is performing better than it should, which, I agree with sir.
But the way you are treating this problem, with the extremity of the things you suggest, it's plain wrong, sir.
I sincerely hope you can see past your anger and hatred.
No worries sir. Itd be much appreciated if you can indeed provide video info. After all getting to know the scope of things better for all can only help.
All right, it's uploading right now.
Staying in stealth indefinitely is STILL possible. You'll have proof in front of your eyes once the video finishes processing.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Would it be possible if we can get maybe a preview on what the basic mechanics of such is, sir? Because unless KE/BB spam is involved, I can't think of any way to get a Scoundrel in permastealth without the use of such, or even BnS, in which case would require the default 16s recharge to go below 10s, which IIRC, is impossible as of current.
I don't imagine I had any 'credibility' to begin with (
You'll see my friend. I did not touch bloodpath a single time. Just used Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike. And could maintain stealth forever. Without EVER breaking it.
Each one of the 3 trees can do that.
The TR I'm using in the video is my sibling's TR. It's executioner but it doesn't matter. Scoundrel can do the same as well since I'm not using anything but Shadow Strike and Bait and Switch.
You'll be pretty surprised once the video uploads. It's at 40% right now.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Er... sir.. That's totally different from what you've mentioned before. You've specifically mentioned that Scoundrels are in perma and node-contesting and dazing whole teams... If you are using a high-recharge build with nothing but BnS and SS, then assuming you to be a MI with ITC/BnS/SS slotted, how do you attack anyone, sir?
But you're right, I'll guess I'll just have to see it for myself.
It's easy... but I'm not going to reveal it here since it would be abused. If you want the details just PM me in-game. And who said it had to be Master Infiltrator?
Video is at 70%.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Gotcha, sir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2Pe5lkNr1Y
I'm here running in circles for 4 minutes straight without ever breaking stealth. I could go on till the end of time. Watch and learn, mirrorballs, this is some knowledge right here.
PS: Of course I'm not attacking because this is a demonstration video. But I can pull this same thing while attacking opponents in actual PVP with either Scoundrel or Executioner. It's very hard to kill.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
That is entirely different than fighting and staying perma. That is knowledge alright, common knowledge and nothing of interest there.
Not sure if serious.
You can still attack while doing that exact rotation while either being Executioner and stacking SoD procs or Scoundrel and dazing while maintaining the node.
That video is another proof that TR has the best of everything.
Anyways, last post in this topic, no point in discussing anything about TR since it will get ignored by the devs.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Sure you can attack and give up being in stealth, this was never denied. Also during mod 5 beta many of us TR warned that the sab would be an even easier perma stealth and not harder (thus that they were not making perma more difficult only easier). Your video only proves that a TR can use almost everything at his disposal to run around in circles in stealth and it proves nothing beyond that.