thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited January 2015
Ok after giving this some thought I agree with point, to a degree. GS should be something you have an option to allow people to view. However, when inside an instance, when inspecting a player it should tell you whether they have alts and how many times they have successfully completed a dungeon as well as how many times they have queued into it. Those numbers would tell you alone enough about a player to quickly judge them and are more accurate then GS.
Ok after giving this some thought I agree with point, to a degree. GS should be something you have an option to allow people to view. However, when inside an instance, when inspecting a player it should tell you whether they have alts and how many times they have successfully completed a dungeon as well as how many times they have queued into it. Those numbers would tell you alone enough about a player to quickly judge them and are more accurate then GS.
I don't think the mass intended audience would want/care to see that. They need a simple number and a simple raid.
0
dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited January 2015
Padding your GS is like padding your bra - it's superficial, and only helps a bit in a moshpit.
It was funny today I got accused of being a "whiney 23K GS" in PvP when I am only around 16K on my main. I guess my character needs a new bra.
Those in the know never judge by GS alone.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Ok after giving this some thought I agree with point, to a degree. GS should be something you have an option to allow people to view. However, when inside an instance, when inspecting a player it should tell you whether they have alts and how many times they have successfully completed a dungeon as well as how many times they have queued into it. Those numbers would tell you alone enough about a player to quickly judge them and are more accurate then GS.
they should add a log of what and how many monsters we kill, would be cool. they have that in runescape
Still, complain here, complain there, and no ideas how to repalce GS... we need a measure unit, in this case its not-so-effective GS, but at least it is...
(Sin)cerely
Kain
I mean, gearscore is the cleanest method Cryptic has to serve its intended audience in providing an option to at least give an idea on the potential effectiveness of a player.
I haven't seen a better suggestion, only rants about how a few people where treated poorly. If there is a better option, I'm all for it.
I mean, gearscore is the cleanest method Cryptic has to serve its intended audience in providing an option to at least give an idea on the potential effectiveness of a player.
I haven't seen a better suggestion, only rants about how a few people where treated poorly. If there is a better option, I'm all for it.
This is why I vote to keep it.
I voted to keep it too, and almost all of my characters are "low GS." Only one of them is 13k almost 14 now. But he's the one I play the most and lots of people would probably still say he is low GS.
I think the issue here is how people are using the number, not the number itself. You say it's intent is to serve the players as a way to gauge the potential effectiveness of other players, but I don't think this was the intent at all. That's just how people have chosen to use the number. I think it was meant mostly to give you a goal to strive for and a way to see progress towards that goal. Also, it's a good way to separate content into tiers based on some basic stats so you aren't getting one shot by things all the time because you're in Castle Never with a piece of level 59 quest gear as your chest piece. Now, granted, that last one can still happen. Clearly, the system isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing. Removing it entirely is a bad idea.
But the system isn't the problem here; the problem, as usual, is the people.
Using gear score is the easy way to skimp on adding an additional 15-20 character levels. It muddles level 60+ into one giant argument. If there were content gated for character levels 65 at the completion of Sharandar, 70 at completion of Dread Ring, 75 upon completion of IWD, and 80 for "Endgame" we wouldn't be having these arguments. Much of this argument has been exacerbated by the Tiamat debacle. Honestly, it should have the same boon requirements as IWD. People are bringing blue/green gear vanilla level 60 players (just yesterday there were 4 or 5 9k players in one instance, which is puzzling, given the entrance to WoD is gated at 10k, right?) and expecting to cakewalk Tiamat. The campaign boons, while not always adding to the mythical "gear score" requirement by giving some passive bonuses, do add to the survivability of the encounter. Also available in the campaigns are better gear that can improve the effectiveness of the player's equipment. I communicated to a "lower geared" player the importance of the boons and the advantages for them to finish some of the content. Surprisingly, they seemed very receptive and understanding.
"I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..." Featured Foundry Quest:Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I mean, gearscore is the cleanest method Cryptic has to serve its intended audience in providing an option to at least give an idea on the potential effectiveness of a player.
I haven't seen a better suggestion, only rants about how a few people where treated poorly. If there is a better option, I'm all for it.
This is why I vote to keep it.
I did propose a better suggestion then gs, with no ranting attached.
What I had proposed was that upon inspecting a player, it would show you the stats they have for whatever instance they are in or you are queued for. For example, say you are queued for CN and you inspect them, it would then show something akin to this: (I made up these numbers)
Stats for player <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in CN:
Number of times completed: 100
Number of times entered: 120
Optional by choice of said player allowing people to see:
GS
Number of alts
Assuming you in CN, then it would show you the stats for only CN when someone random joins. With those first 2 numbers someone can make a much more accurate judgement on how well a player will perform then by using their GS. This is because say they have 10 chars and they playing on a new alt, whilst It will show 0 times entered and completed, by revealing the number of alts, it indicates to players that they have experience on another Char. Also if the number of times entered is much higher then the number of times completed, it probably indicates either a poor player or one who isn't willing to stick around for a team.
I mean, gearscore is the cleanest method Cryptic has to serve its intended audience in providing an option to at least give an idea on the potential effectiveness of a player.
I haven't seen a better suggestion, only rants about how a few people where treated poorly. If there is a better option, I'm all for it.
This is why I vote to keep it.
How about just getting rid of the GS NUMBER, and if you want to see a character's gear, you have to actually spend more than 2 seconds inspecting the character to look at gear sets, enchants, etc., and not go by one single number which doesn't even actually measure the entirety of the player's gear?
I did propose a better suggestion then gs, with no ranting attached.
What I had proposed was that upon inspecting a player, it would show you the stats they have for whatever instance they are in or you are queued for. For example, say you are queued for CN and you inspect them, it would then show something akin to this: (I made up these numbers)
Stats for player <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in CN:
Number of times completed: 100
Number of times entered: 120
Optional by choice of said player allowing people to see:
GS
Number of alts
Assuming you in CN, then it would show you the stats for only CN when someone random joins. With those first 2 numbers someone can make a much more accurate judgement on how well a player will perform then by using their GS. This is because say they have 10 chars and they playing on a new alt, whilst It will show 0 times entered and completed, by revealing the number of alts, it indicates to players that they have experience on another Char. Also if the number of times entered is much higher then the number of times completed, it probably indicates either a poor player or one who isn't willing to stick around for a team.
Wouldn't fix a thing. You'd then have well geared newer players locked out of content because they haven't completed the content before. I've seen it before in other games where the tell would be for "lfg x, link achievement" if you don't have the achievement for already beating it, you don't get to run it.
I did propose a better suggestion then gs, with no ranting attached.
What I had proposed was that upon inspecting a player, it would show you the stats they have for whatever instance they are in or you are queued for. For example, say you are queued for CN and you inspect them, it would then show something akin to this: (I made up these numbers)
Stats for player <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in CN:
Number of times completed: 100
Number of times entered: 120
Optional by choice of said player allowing people to see:
GS
Number of alts
Assuming you in CN, then it would show you the stats for only CN when someone random joins. With those first 2 numbers someone can make a much more accurate judgement on how well a player will perform then by using their GS. This is because say they have 10 chars and they playing on a new alt, whilst It will show 0 times entered and completed, by revealing the number of alts, it indicates to players that they have experience on another Char. Also if the number of times entered is much higher then the number of times completed, it probably indicates either a poor player or one who isn't willing to stick around for a team.
I personally would benefit A LOT from your suggestion. I am interested in seeing players' CN runs. I would love to have that feature added but I just don't think that for Cryptic's intended audience, they would be able to easily apply those stats. I think it *could* be a bonus, but there needs to be a clean and simple comparator. Sometimes, players don't want to roll over every single enchant and add them up manually.
I also think there is a little flaw (other than it isn't as streamlined and clean as a simple Gearscore number), it doesn't exactly depict the current state of that toon's gear and gear has tons to do with performance. There is no reliable "skill" meter. Does the person with 100 completed CN runs better than the player with 80 completed CN runs? Not really. Alts also poses a very big problem just because of class differences, mules and leadership. As for the other stuff, I think it is becoming a privacy issue that many players do not wish to share.
Lastly, gearscore is also a big e-peen function which incentives players to progress upwards and also track their progression as well as enable simple comparisons. Completions of Castle Never does server some of the same purposes, but it doesn't really help with Cyptic's agenda of seducing players to "buy" stuff.
Your suggestion is indeed beneficial and can flesh out the story behind a toon. However, most players will go for the easiest and cleanest way (which frankly I think is effective enough). So then everyone reverts to using gearscore primarily despite the bevy of options and we're back to square one.
How about just getting rid of the GS NUMBER, and if you want to see a character's gear, you have to actually spend more than 2 seconds inspecting the character to look at gear sets, enchants, etc., and not go by one single number which doesn't even actually measure the entirety of the player's gear?
Well I admit that gearscore isn't perfect. Its far from perfect. But it is very reliable in predicting a player's potential effectiveness. The number is an easy way for players to identify and inspect others plus it is an easy variable to use for content-gating and for the reasons I mentioned above.
I did propose a better suggestion then gs, with no ranting attached.
What I had proposed was that upon inspecting a player, it would show you the stats they have for whatever instance they are in or you are queued for. For example, say you are queued for CN and you inspect them, it would then show something akin to this: (I made up these numbers)
Stats for player <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in CN:
Number of times completed: 100
Number of times entered: 120
Optional by choice of said player allowing people to see:
GS
Number of alts
Assuming you in CN, then it would show you the stats for only CN when someone random joins. With those first 2 numbers someone can make a much more accurate judgement on how well a player will perform then by using their GS. This is because say they have 10 chars and they playing on a new alt, whilst It will show 0 times entered and completed, by revealing the number of alts, it indicates to players that they have experience on another Char. Also if the number of times entered is much higher then the number of times completed, it probably indicates either a poor player or one who isn't willing to stick around for a team.
Could be interesting as long as you recognise that previous entries won't count. So for the hundred of CN runs I've done won't show up, and unlikely to do many again considering how much it has devalued. Plus I suggest that if that were to be implemented, that it wouldn't count as an entry if you've been in for less than 5 mins. Otherwise who would pug? Though either way it could end up with elitism in forming groups.
I agree that any way they do it, the elitists would find a way to be elitist about it. So I feel it is fine the way it is. GS allows you to get a quick picture of how effective a person most likely will be. It's obviously only part of the picture, but it is a starting point to understanding your group.
I agree that any way they do it, the elitists would find a way to be elitist about it. So I feel it is fine the way it is. GS allows you to get a quick picture of how effective a person most likely will be. It's obviously only part of the picture, but it is a starting point to understanding your group.
It's very true on what wild just said. But, sometimes it's not fair. Whatever you do, elisitist will remain elisitist, we can not deny that fact. However, it's a stressful competition. People who looking for 15k + don't take 14k because of their GS purely, but some people have better experience and approach differently. I personally got declined and I had perfect vorpal on my CW. I out DPS high level GS'd folks due to my skill rotations and the build set up. Now... I understand that it's not always the case where people being GS maniacs or can out dps someone while under scored. But, it's just sad sometimes.. I feel sorry for those new comers. Without spending any money in this game, coming up from 8k to 15k is hell a lot of work.
All in all.. NW has already trained people to be picky and many players look for the speed run now days. Better gear = faster completion in NW. I don't know if anything will change even after removing GS.
I agree that any way they do it, the elitists would find a way to be elitist about it. So I feel it is fine the way it is. GS allows you to get a quick picture of how effective a person most likely will be. It's obviously only part of the picture, but it is a starting point to understanding your group.
There will always be elitism. I wouldn't take away gearscore and all the functions it does just because of that.
It's very true on what wild just said. But, sometimes it's not fair. Whatever you do, elisitist will remain elisitist, we can not deny that fact. However, it's a stressful competition. People who looking for 15k + don't take 14k because of their GS purely, but some people have better experience and approach differently. I personally got declined and I had perfect vorpal on my CW. I out DPS high level GS'd folks due to my skill rotations and the build set up. Now... I understand that it's not always the case where people being GS maniacs or can out dps someone while under scored. But, it's just sad sometimes.. I feel sorry for those new comers. Without spending any money in this game, coming up from 8k to 15k is hell a lot of work.
All in all.. NW has already trained people to be picky and many players look for the speed run now days. Better gear = faster completion in NW. I don't know if anything will change even after removing GS.
Make it so that if it's epic or higher it's btcoa. Then speed runs have no more point. The elimination of speed runs will decrease a lot of gs craziness. Not destroy unfortunately, but decrease it.
No thanks Jeff. It's fine as it is. Gives a general/vague idea about the performance of someone.
Something that's too bad is this powercreep, we have 26K people running around, I'm almost starting to feel like a peasant at ~20K.
I remember when 14K was the sh*t back then. Now it's considered scrub level... lol.
I honestly wish boons, artifacts and the like were never introduced.
The problem isn't the powercreep per se. The problem is that no new content has been introduced where the mobs and dungeon were creeped up by the same amount. This means that everything is now easier rather than only old content being easier.
The problem isn't the powercreep per se. The problem is that no new content has been introduced where the mobs and dungeon were creeped up by the same amount. This means that everything is now easier rather than only old content being easier.
I agree with you . . . my 15k cw kills things faster in WOD than my 21k temp SW!
I also agree that GS is not the problem and admittedly I do get a little frustrated when I see people entering Tiamat with out a soul forge enchant weapon enchant and only one artifact and that being the whole realms cat. People need to take the time to educate there selves on the mechanics of the content fights and there class's unfortunately this game does not incur age that sort of interest in more than 5% of there player base. the other problem is that its too easy for people to spend real $$ to power level there artifacts and boost there GS.
Idk why you guys have a problem with gs there is a handfull of players that can play they classes well. and as you say high gs doesnt mean they know what they do but at least you know he may played this game for a view hours or has big money i like the gs for stuff like tiamat i'm tired of whiping with pugs since every one can join the fight with his twink or fresh lvl 60...
Black Turtle TryhartzIV
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
TL;DR: Gear Score is an abused number that often leads to prejudice and bigotry against those who have a low GS number. It should be removed from the game, and players ought to be judged based on their competence, not their Gear Score.
This has become a real problem in raids like Tiamat, when players conclude that the reason for a failed raid is "low GS" by some members of the raid. There are even people who insist that a 15k GS should be a minimum, which is absurd - a DC wearing full High Prophet (T1) gear (the best gear for a debuff DC), all Mod 1/Mod 2 boons, and full Rank 7's will have a GS of around 14k. It is astounding to think that some players would want to exclude this 14k High Prophet DC from the raid in favor of a DC that has worse gear but padded stats, all in the name of having characters with bigger GS numbers "assist" them in victory in the raid.
At the extreme, some players use GS to harshly judge players with a low number, and accuse them of being leeches, parasites, idiots, or worse. This is just outright bigotry, but it is enabled by the "GS culture" that pervades this game, where the presumption is that high GS means better player.
Personally I am against hiding Gear score/gear for numerous reasons.
Why should a 10/11k gs being able to hide their gear score/gear when they are standing at the entrance of the Temple?
You have pretty much answered your own question...
I am not against 14/15k gs players who entering the Temple when they have made some decent effort to be able to perform in a decent way which means proper gear, proper enchanting’s, proper Artifacts and companions loaded.
But what do I see quite often by inspecting these 10/11k gs players (and can prove it with dozens of screenshot's) is Green gear which can be found in Sharandar, blue gear and eventually purple <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from AH added to reach the requested gear score, r3/4 enchantments if enchantments at all (mostly wrong too but who cares), only the Artifact which comes from Black dagger ruins and no sigil from IWD..
These combined facts are telling me that these players have skipped Sharandar, Dread ring and IWD and goes straight to the Temple as soon they have reached 60 in a few days, where they inspecting high geared players, watching them when they enter and follow them in in an attempt to get easy changes on gear they do not deserve.
I do not judge the 14/15k gs players because I can see if they have actually putted some effort and have earned the right to be there.
But I do Judge those 10/11k gs players decked out in ****ty gear trying to follow those (as it is called) GS Elitists and I call them Leeches and Parasites.... Does that makes me a GS Elitist (or Snob)? Yes, and I’m **** proud of what I have achieved thus far. I have finished Sharandar, Dreadring and IWD... Have all my Boons, Proper Enchanting’s, choices of Artifacts and companions. This have made me a 24k gs Tank with 71k hp thus far. So, let me be a GS Elitist because I know where I am coming from.
People are defending those 10/11k gs players and they all say... “GS doesn’t tell anything, skill is important (they think). Well, the fact is that even (if) they have a ton of skills they simply don’t succeed just for the simple fact that they have no resists at all which forcing me to activate KV when running up the ramps to intercept 50% of their incoming damage and turn it off at Head… And even then I have seen them dropping like flies... These are the ones who are ruining the runs of players who have decent gear.
These things have forced me to get a full set of T2 gear from AH (so I am not interesting enough when I am being inspected and swap gear inside), these things have forced me to make fake runs to the Temple door and instead of entering I change WoD instance to lure them into entering the Temple just to avoid that these Leeches are jumping on my back.
With this being said…
Developers made a big mistake by letting WoD comes alive as it is now at this point, No boon requirements, no campaign and a whopping 10k gs to enter WoD and the Temple. They should simply fix this by implementing a boon and campaign requirement as we have with IWD.
Therefore it’s my personal opinion (for entering the Temple) to get 2 full boons (Sharandar or Dreadring) and IWD, that way the players who have been gone through these two automatically have the desired gs (14k+) and playing skills for entering the Temple.
I have much respect for those 10/11 k gs players on LFG channel who actually work on their gear upgrades by running the needed dungeons to get their gear together, those are the ones who I help quite often with pleasure to get them through these dungeons so they get the gear upgrades they need.
IMHO it’s not needed for being able to hide your gs and gear other than being able to hide ****ty gear in the Temple for other players.
Let me be a GS Snob or Elitist… Im **** proud of it.
Personally I am against hiding Gear score/gear for numerous reasons.
Why should a 10/11k gs being able to hide their gear score/gear when they are standing at the entrance of the Temple?
You have pretty much answered your own question...
I am not against 14/15k gs players who entering the Temple when they have made some decent effort to be able to perform in a decent way which means proper gear, proper enchanting’s, proper Artifacts and companions loaded.
But what do I see quite often by inspecting these 10/11k gs players (and can prove it with dozens of screenshot's) is Green gear which can be found in Sharandar, blue gear and eventually purple <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from AH added to reach the requested gear score, r3/4 enchantments if enchantments at all (mostly wrong too but who cares), only the Artifact which comes from Black dagger ruins and no sigil from IWD..
These combined facts are telling me that these players have skipped Sharandar, Dread ring and IWD and goes straight to the Temple as soon they have reached 60 in a few days, where they inspecting high geared players, watching them when they enter and follow them in in an attempt to get easy changes on gear they do not deserve.
I do not judge the 14/15k gs players because I can see if they have actually putted some effort and have earned the right to be there.
But I do Judge those 10/11k gs players decked out in ****ty gear trying to follow those (as it is called) GS Elitists and I call them Leeches and Parasites.... Does that makes me a GS Elitist (or Snob)? Yes, and I’m **** proud of what I have achieved thus far. I have finished Sharandar, Dreadring and IWD... Have all my Boons, Proper Enchanting’s, choices of Artifacts and companions. This have made me a 24k gs Tank with 71k hp thus far. So, let me be a GS Elitist because I know where I am coming from.
People are defending those 10/11k gs players and they all say... “GS doesn’t tell anything, skill is important (they think). Well, the fact is that even (if) they have a ton of skills they simply don’t succeed just for the simple fact that they have no resists at all which forcing me to activate KV when running up the ramps to intercept 50% of their incoming damage and turn it off at Head… And even then I have seen them dropping like flies... These are the ones who are ruining the runs of players who have decent gear.
These things have forced me to get a full set of T2 gear from AH (so I am not interesting enough when I am being inspected and swap gear inside), these things have forced me to make fake runs to the Temple door and instead of entering I change WoD instance to lure them into entering the Temple just to avoid that these Leeches are jumping on my back.
With this being said…
Developers made a big mistake by letting WoD comes alive as it is now at this point, No boon requirements, no campaign and a whopping 10k gs to enter WoD and the Temple. They should simply fix this by implementing a boon and campaign requirement as we have with IWD.
Therefore it’s my personal opinion (for entering the Temple) to get 2 full boons (Sharandar or Dreadring) and IWD, that way the players who have been gone through these two automatically have the desired gs (14k+) and playing skills for entering the Temple.
I have much respect for those 10/11 k gs players on LFG channel who actually work on their gear upgrades by running the needed dungeons to get their gear together, those are the ones who I help quite often with pleasure to get them through these dungeons so they get the gear upgrades they need.
IMHO it’s not needed for being able to hide your gs and gear other than being able to hide ****ty gear in the Temple for other players.
Let me be a GS Snob or Elitist… Im **** proud of it.
I totaly agree with you and full suport everything you said ty
Lets face it GS is not perfect but nothing is. If we compare it to real life, and say that a 20K GS is the same as somebody who is a director or senior partner of a company and a 4K GS is the intern, it starts to make sense. A director does not usually hang out and do things with interns and the same is true of the game.
I went to Tiamat with a TR leadership mule, I pushed over 10k GS. He ranked 9th in the final ranking. My conclusion is not, that you do have to get rid of GS or, that 10k is enough, but that there are many bad players and a few good ones who carry the fight (I am not talking about my 10k GS TR).
I played the TR for 2 weeks and pushed it over 16k GS. Granted, most players are not around since beta and can just buy some stuff to gear their chars up, but I did NOT speed up boons, I did not slap on some artefact belt and necklace, I use class artefacts, enchantements and gear I farmed, bought or had in my vault.
The TR is a pet project. I geared him up out of boredom. If your char is a toon, you can reach 14-15k GS in a few weeks, maybe a month, if you do the dailies. If it is your FIRST and ONLY char, it will take longer, but when I look at the ppl entering Tiamat I have to say, that at last half of them are either clueless, lazy or trolls feeding of other ppls effort, bc I cant belive, that half of the players in the game reached lvl 60 less than a month ago.
If you have 16k GS and are a bad player, you are a bad player. Maybe you should ask some expirienced ones for help or read the forum. If you have a GS of 10k and you are fine with it, good for you. If you are playing for month, still sitting on your 10k GS and you enter Tiamat, complaining about high GS players using que times you are a leecher complaining about other ppl, bc they dont want to do your work.
IMO the concept behind Tiamat is flawed and there are a lot of ppl exploiting this.
I went to Tiamat with a TR leadership mule, I pushed over 10k GS. He ranked 9th in the final ranking. My conclusion is not, that you do have to get rid of GS or, that 10k is enough, but that there are many bad players and a few good ones who carry the fight (I am not talking about my 10k GS TR).
I played the TR for 2 weeks and pushed it over 16k GS. Granted, most players are not around since beta and can just buy some stuff to gear their chars up, but I did NOT speed up boons, I did not slap on some artefact belt and necklace, I use class artefacts, enchantements and gear I farmed, bought or had in my vault.
The TR is a pet project. I geared him up out of boredom. If your char is a toon, you can reach 14-15k GS in a few weeks, maybe a month, if you do the dailies. If it is your FIRST and ONLY char, it will take longer, but when I look at the ppl entering Tiamat I have to say, that at last half of them are either clueless, lazy or trolls feeding of other ppls effort, bc I cant belive, that half of the players in the game reached lvl 60 less than a month ago.
If you have 16k GS and are a bad player, you are a bad player. Maybe you should ask some expirienced ones for help or read the forum. If you have a GS of 10k and you are fine with it, good for you. If you are playing for month, still sitting on your 10k GS and you enter Tiamat, complaining about high GS players using que times you are a leecher complaining about other ppl, bc they dont want to do your work.
IMO the concept behind Tiamat is flawed and there are a lot of ppl exploiting this.
I see someone else seeing a ranking in tiamat and thinking it means anything
IT DOESNT
I know alot of people think that asking people to go and get boons ,gear and learn there class mechs is eliteism but we are only asking that they wait till they are ready and a 10k gs anything is not ready
I dare you to put together a 25 man 10k gs group and try tiamat
then you would see what we are upset about
I took my 10 k CW in Tiamat fight other day I was so happy to finally get there. Seemed really hard to get my GS up over the 10 k. Getting my first Boon helped Now people were complaining after on zone and Legit chat, that there were people there with low GS Haha.. I had a good chuckle at all the comments. Actually I thought I did really well protecting the clerics, I did not fall and basically saved it a bunch, because I do the best at control not so much DPS. But the heads were another issue, died a lot, but people were not using gems, so I died more than I should have and couldn't be very helpful there. Just shows GS does not mean a lot, you simply can't factor in critical things like build type, play style, how well you play, and such. Some high GS groups are the worst, and I seen low GS parties do better. Make too much of GS, great execution and hard work, teamwork, will always trump great talent and high GS that is not used properly.
I would leave GS the way it is, maybe tweak, improve, but make hidden. It should never be seen. People will try to calculate there own GS but I think it will die off this GS rating thing... solving a lot of problem. You might get message politely saying "Sorry, your player stats need to be improved to enter this instance or epic dungeon" or other ways of doing the basic requirement thing.
I took my 10 k CW in Tiamat fight other day I was so happy to finally get there. Seemed really hard to get my GS up over the 10 k. Getting my first Boon helped Now people were complaining after on zone and Legit chat, that there were people there with low GS Haha.. I had a good chuckle at all the comments. Actually I thought I did really well protecting the clerics, I did not fall and basically saved it a bunch, because I do the best at control not so much DPS. But the heads were another issue, died a lot, but people were not using gems, so I died more than I should have and couldn't be very helpful there. Just shows GS does not mean a lot, you simply can't factor in critical things like build type, play style, how well you play, and such. Some high GS groups are the worst, and I seen low GS parties do better. Make too much of GS, great execution and hard work, teamwork, will always trump great talent and high GS that is not used properly.
You died more than you should have, so all the time you were dead you were not there. So you were not helping!
I took my 10 k CW in Tiamat fight other day I was so happy to finally get there. Seemed really hard to get my GS up over the 10 k. Getting my first Boon helped Now people were complaining after on zone and Legit chat, that there were people there with low GS Haha.. I had a good chuckle at all the comments. Actually I thought I did really well protecting the clerics, I did not fall and basically saved it a bunch, because I do the best at control not so much DPS. But the heads were another issue, died a lot, but people were not using gems, so I died more than I should have and couldn't be very helpful there. Just shows GS does not mean a lot, you simply can't factor in critical things like build type, play style, how well you play, and such. Some high GS groups are the worst, and I seen low GS parties do better. Make too much of GS, great execution and hard work, teamwork, will always trump great talent and high GS that is not used properly.
The only gems that are needed are green and blue. All other breaths should be survivable. 10kgs needs perfect play in a coordinated party, (read premade) which of course can't happen in the current set up.
Comments
I don't think the mass intended audience would want/care to see that. They need a simple number and a simple raid.
It was funny today I got accused of being a "whiney 23K GS" in PvP when I am only around 16K on my main. I guess my character needs a new bra.
Those in the know never judge by GS alone.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Congrats for that analogy. #winstheinternet
they should add a log of what and how many monsters we kill, would be cool. they have that in runescape
I mean, gearscore is the cleanest method Cryptic has to serve its intended audience in providing an option to at least give an idea on the potential effectiveness of a player.
I haven't seen a better suggestion, only rants about how a few people where treated poorly. If there is a better option, I'm all for it.
This is why I vote to keep it.
I voted to keep it too, and almost all of my characters are "low GS." Only one of them is 13k almost 14 now. But he's the one I play the most and lots of people would probably still say he is low GS.
I think the issue here is how people are using the number, not the number itself. You say it's intent is to serve the players as a way to gauge the potential effectiveness of other players, but I don't think this was the intent at all. That's just how people have chosen to use the number. I think it was meant mostly to give you a goal to strive for and a way to see progress towards that goal. Also, it's a good way to separate content into tiers based on some basic stats so you aren't getting one shot by things all the time because you're in Castle Never with a piece of level 59 quest gear as your chest piece. Now, granted, that last one can still happen. Clearly, the system isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing. Removing it entirely is a bad idea.
But the system isn't the problem here; the problem, as usual, is the people.
Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
I did propose a better suggestion then gs, with no ranting attached.
What I had proposed was that upon inspecting a player, it would show you the stats they have for whatever instance they are in or you are queued for. For example, say you are queued for CN and you inspect them, it would then show something akin to this: (I made up these numbers)
Stats for player <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in CN:
Number of times completed: 100
Number of times entered: 120
Optional by choice of said player allowing people to see:
GS
Number of alts
Assuming you in CN, then it would show you the stats for only CN when someone random joins. With those first 2 numbers someone can make a much more accurate judgement on how well a player will perform then by using their GS. This is because say they have 10 chars and they playing on a new alt, whilst It will show 0 times entered and completed, by revealing the number of alts, it indicates to players that they have experience on another Char. Also if the number of times entered is much higher then the number of times completed, it probably indicates either a poor player or one who isn't willing to stick around for a team.
How about just getting rid of the GS NUMBER, and if you want to see a character's gear, you have to actually spend more than 2 seconds inspecting the character to look at gear sets, enchants, etc., and not go by one single number which doesn't even actually measure the entirety of the player's gear?
Wouldn't fix a thing. You'd then have well geared newer players locked out of content because they haven't completed the content before. I've seen it before in other games where the tell would be for "lfg x, link achievement" if you don't have the achievement for already beating it, you don't get to run it.
I personally would benefit A LOT from your suggestion. I am interested in seeing players' CN runs. I would love to have that feature added but I just don't think that for Cryptic's intended audience, they would be able to easily apply those stats. I think it *could* be a bonus, but there needs to be a clean and simple comparator. Sometimes, players don't want to roll over every single enchant and add them up manually.
I also think there is a little flaw (other than it isn't as streamlined and clean as a simple Gearscore number), it doesn't exactly depict the current state of that toon's gear and gear has tons to do with performance. There is no reliable "skill" meter. Does the person with 100 completed CN runs better than the player with 80 completed CN runs? Not really. Alts also poses a very big problem just because of class differences, mules and leadership. As for the other stuff, I think it is becoming a privacy issue that many players do not wish to share.
Lastly, gearscore is also a big e-peen function which incentives players to progress upwards and also track their progression as well as enable simple comparisons. Completions of Castle Never does server some of the same purposes, but it doesn't really help with Cyptic's agenda of seducing players to "buy" stuff.
Your suggestion is indeed beneficial and can flesh out the story behind a toon. However, most players will go for the easiest and cleanest way (which frankly I think is effective enough). So then everyone reverts to using gearscore primarily despite the bevy of options and we're back to square one.
Well I admit that gearscore isn't perfect. Its far from perfect. But it is very reliable in predicting a player's potential effectiveness. The number is an easy way for players to identify and inspect others plus it is an easy variable to use for content-gating and for the reasons I mentioned above.
Could be interesting as long as you recognise that previous entries won't count. So for the hundred of CN runs I've done won't show up, and unlikely to do many again considering how much it has devalued. Plus I suggest that if that were to be implemented, that it wouldn't count as an entry if you've been in for less than 5 mins. Otherwise who would pug? Though either way it could end up with elitism in forming groups.
It's very true on what wild just said. But, sometimes it's not fair. Whatever you do, elisitist will remain elisitist, we can not deny that fact. However, it's a stressful competition. People who looking for 15k + don't take 14k because of their GS purely, but some people have better experience and approach differently. I personally got declined and I had perfect vorpal on my CW. I out DPS high level GS'd folks due to my skill rotations and the build set up. Now... I understand that it's not always the case where people being GS maniacs or can out dps someone while under scored. But, it's just sad sometimes.. I feel sorry for those new comers. Without spending any money in this game, coming up from 8k to 15k is hell a lot of work.
All in all.. NW has already trained people to be picky and many players look for the speed run now days. Better gear = faster completion in NW. I don't know if anything will change even after removing GS.
There will always be elitism. I wouldn't take away gearscore and all the functions it does just because of that.
Make it so that if it's epic or higher it's btcoa. Then speed runs have no more point. The elimination of speed runs will decrease a lot of gs craziness. Not destroy unfortunately, but decrease it.
Something that's too bad is this powercreep, we have 26K people running around, I'm almost starting to feel like a peasant at ~20K.
I remember when 14K was the sh*t back then. Now it's considered scrub level... lol.
I honestly wish boons, artifacts and the like were never introduced.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
The problem isn't the powercreep per se. The problem is that no new content has been introduced where the mobs and dungeon were creeped up by the same amount. This means that everything is now easier rather than only old content being easier.
I agree with you . . . my 15k cw kills things faster in WOD than my 21k temp SW!
I also agree that GS is not the problem and admittedly I do get a little frustrated when I see people entering Tiamat with out a soul forge enchant weapon enchant and only one artifact and that being the whole realms cat. People need to take the time to educate there selves on the mechanics of the content fights and there class's unfortunately this game does not incur age that sort of interest in more than 5% of there player base. the other problem is that its too easy for people to spend real $$ to power level there artifacts and boost there GS.
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
Personally I am against hiding Gear score/gear for numerous reasons.
Why should a 10/11k gs being able to hide their gear score/gear when they are standing at the entrance of the Temple?
You have pretty much answered your own question...
I am not against 14/15k gs players who entering the Temple when they have made some decent effort to be able to perform in a decent way which means proper gear, proper enchanting’s, proper Artifacts and companions loaded.
But what do I see quite often by inspecting these 10/11k gs players (and can prove it with dozens of screenshot's) is Green gear which can be found in Sharandar, blue gear and eventually purple <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from AH added to reach the requested gear score, r3/4 enchantments if enchantments at all (mostly wrong too but who cares), only the Artifact which comes from Black dagger ruins and no sigil from IWD..
These combined facts are telling me that these players have skipped Sharandar, Dread ring and IWD and goes straight to the Temple as soon they have reached 60 in a few days, where they inspecting high geared players, watching them when they enter and follow them in in an attempt to get easy changes on gear they do not deserve.
I do not judge the 14/15k gs players because I can see if they have actually putted some effort and have earned the right to be there.
But I do Judge those 10/11k gs players decked out in ****ty gear trying to follow those (as it is called) GS Elitists and I call them Leeches and Parasites.... Does that makes me a GS Elitist (or Snob)? Yes, and I’m **** proud of what I have achieved thus far. I have finished Sharandar, Dreadring and IWD... Have all my Boons, Proper Enchanting’s, choices of Artifacts and companions. This have made me a 24k gs Tank with 71k hp thus far. So, let me be a GS Elitist because I know where I am coming from.
People are defending those 10/11k gs players and they all say... “GS doesn’t tell anything, skill is important (they think). Well, the fact is that even (if) they have a ton of skills they simply don’t succeed just for the simple fact that they have no resists at all which forcing me to activate KV when running up the ramps to intercept 50% of their incoming damage and turn it off at Head… And even then I have seen them dropping like flies... These are the ones who are ruining the runs of players who have decent gear.
These things have forced me to get a full set of T2 gear from AH (so I am not interesting enough when I am being inspected and swap gear inside), these things have forced me to make fake runs to the Temple door and instead of entering I change WoD instance to lure them into entering the Temple just to avoid that these Leeches are jumping on my back.
With this being said…
Developers made a big mistake by letting WoD comes alive as it is now at this point, No boon requirements, no campaign and a whopping 10k gs to enter WoD and the Temple. They should simply fix this by implementing a boon and campaign requirement as we have with IWD.
Therefore it’s my personal opinion (for entering the Temple) to get 2 full boons (Sharandar or Dreadring) and IWD, that way the players who have been gone through these two automatically have the desired gs (14k+) and playing skills for entering the Temple.
I have much respect for those 10/11 k gs players on LFG channel who actually work on their gear upgrades by running the needed dungeons to get their gear together, those are the ones who I help quite often with pleasure to get them through these dungeons so they get the gear upgrades they need.
IMHO it’s not needed for being able to hide your gs and gear other than being able to hide ****ty gear in the Temple for other players.
Let me be a GS Snob or Elitist… Im **** proud of it.
Why should a 10/11k gs being able to hide their gear score/gear when they are standing at the entrance of the Temple?
You have pretty much answered your own question...
I am not against 14/15k gs players who entering the Temple when they have made some decent effort to be able to perform in a decent way which means proper gear, proper enchanting’s, proper Artifacts and companions loaded.
But what do I see quite often by inspecting these 10/11k gs players (and can prove it with dozens of screenshot's) is Green gear which can be found in Sharandar, blue gear and eventually purple <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from AH added to reach the requested gear score, r3/4 enchantments if enchantments at all (mostly wrong too but who cares), only the Artifact which comes from Black dagger ruins and no sigil from IWD..
These combined facts are telling me that these players have skipped Sharandar, Dread ring and IWD and goes straight to the Temple as soon they have reached 60 in a few days, where they inspecting high geared players, watching them when they enter and follow them in in an attempt to get easy changes on gear they do not deserve.
I do not judge the 14/15k gs players because I can see if they have actually putted some effort and have earned the right to be there.
But I do Judge those 10/11k gs players decked out in ****ty gear trying to follow those (as it is called) GS Elitists and I call them Leeches and Parasites.... Does that makes me a GS Elitist (or Snob)? Yes, and I’m **** proud of what I have achieved thus far. I have finished Sharandar, Dreadring and IWD... Have all my Boons, Proper Enchanting’s, choices of Artifacts and companions. This have made me a 24k gs Tank with 71k hp thus far. So, let me be a GS Elitist because I know where I am coming from.
People are defending those 10/11k gs players and they all say... “GS doesn’t tell anything, skill is important (they think). Well, the fact is that even (if) they have a ton of skills they simply don’t succeed just for the simple fact that they have no resists at all which forcing me to activate KV when running up the ramps to intercept 50% of their incoming damage and turn it off at Head… And even then I have seen them dropping like flies... These are the ones who are ruining the runs of players who have decent gear.
These things have forced me to get a full set of T2 gear from AH (so I am not interesting enough when I am being inspected and swap gear inside), these things have forced me to make fake runs to the Temple door and instead of entering I change WoD instance to lure them into entering the Temple just to avoid that these Leeches are jumping on my back.
With this being said…
Developers made a big mistake by letting WoD comes alive as it is now at this point, No boon requirements, no campaign and a whopping 10k gs to enter WoD and the Temple. They should simply fix this by implementing a boon and campaign requirement as we have with IWD.
Therefore it’s my personal opinion (for entering the Temple) to get 2 full boons (Sharandar or Dreadring) and IWD, that way the players who have been gone through these two automatically have the desired gs (14k+) and playing skills for entering the Temple.
I have much respect for those 10/11 k gs players on LFG channel who actually work on their gear upgrades by running the needed dungeons to get their gear together, those are the ones who I help quite often with pleasure to get them through these dungeons so they get the gear upgrades they need.
IMHO it’s not needed for being able to hide your gs and gear other than being able to hide ****ty gear in the Temple for other players.
Let me be a GS Snob or Elitist… Im **** proud of it.
I totaly agree with you and full suport everything you said ty
I played the TR for 2 weeks and pushed it over 16k GS. Granted, most players are not around since beta and can just buy some stuff to gear their chars up, but I did NOT speed up boons, I did not slap on some artefact belt and necklace, I use class artefacts, enchantements and gear I farmed, bought or had in my vault.
The TR is a pet project. I geared him up out of boredom. If your char is a toon, you can reach 14-15k GS in a few weeks, maybe a month, if you do the dailies. If it is your FIRST and ONLY char, it will take longer, but when I look at the ppl entering Tiamat I have to say, that at last half of them are either clueless, lazy or trolls feeding of other ppls effort, bc I cant belive, that half of the players in the game reached lvl 60 less than a month ago.
If you have 16k GS and are a bad player, you are a bad player. Maybe you should ask some expirienced ones for help or read the forum. If you have a GS of 10k and you are fine with it, good for you. If you are playing for month, still sitting on your 10k GS and you enter Tiamat, complaining about high GS players using que times you are a leecher complaining about other ppl, bc they dont want to do your work.
IMO the concept behind Tiamat is flawed and there are a lot of ppl exploiting this.
I see someone else seeing a ranking in tiamat and thinking it means anything
IT DOESNT
I know alot of people think that asking people to go and get boons ,gear and learn there class mechs is eliteism but we are only asking that they wait till they are ready and a 10k gs anything is not ready
I dare you to put together a 25 man 10k gs group and try tiamat
then you would see what we are upset about
I would leave GS the way it is, maybe tweak, improve, but make hidden. It should never be seen. People will try to calculate there own GS but I think it will die off this GS rating thing... solving a lot of problem. You might get message politely saying "Sorry, your player stats need to be improved to enter this instance or epic dungeon" or other ways of doing the basic requirement thing.
You died more than you should have, so all the time you were dead you were not there. So you were not helping!
The only gems that are needed are green and blue. All other breaths should be survivable. 10kgs needs perfect play in a coordinated party, (read premade) which of course can't happen in the current set up.