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It's time to get rid of Gear Score

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  • lordzalmlordzalm Member Posts: 107 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    I've noticed a trend of putting making the game function as intended on the player's backs. Tiamat bottom line. You should have 3 boons. If you cry about it, not our problem you are too lazy.

    I think tiamat should only be allowed to be accessed if ONE of the other campaigns is completed. Be it sharandar, all 5 boons, Dread Ring all 5 boons, or Icewind all 5 Boons. Either way, one of those three should be done before entry, since tiamat is nearly impossible as is, it beign the hardest thing to do in this game ATM.

    Giving Tiamat a entry fee of all 5 boons from at least one of the other campaigns as well as a 13k GS would show that you need to have played a decent amount of the game as your class, and thus have learned to use your class to some degree, topped off with having enough gear to survive the fight in the first place.

    This comes from a DC with 14k GS himself, so dont think me some ego inflated snob either.
  • rinat114rinat114 Member Posts: 913 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    People are acting like they should just zip right into Tiamat. I can understand if you aren't new and know how to spec but many new players are allowed to go in like that. It's not fair to them. They should have at least 3 boons to enter.

    I 100% agree with that. Making Tiamat a 'get-3-boons-to-enter' thing will also fix the **** market. T2's are dead and gone when every 10k newbie can get into Tiamat and get their set. Either this or for 100k on the AH including weapons. Can't believe I'm saying this, but I prefer my 5 hours grind rampage last mod killing dragons in hope for a belt than the current belt prices and broken market. It was frustrating, yes, but it was satisfying. I had to work for my gear, run multiple t2's just to get a single armor piece that back then used to cost 300 - 400k. Hard work and grind is all gone, it's hardly fun anymore.
  • pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    huejaynus wrote: »
    I dont know about you guys but GS seems to work just fine for me. I currently have 3 different pieces pieces on my CW (Corrupted 1/4, Draconic 1/4 Dread 2/4) and my stats are higher than having a 2/4 set bonus from any other t2 set...

    ummm..... yeahhhhh......
  • rinat114rinat114 Member Posts: 913 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    huejaynus wrote: »
    I dont know about you guys but GS seems to work just fine for me. I currently have 3 different pieces pieces on my CW (Corrupted 1/4, Draconic 1/4 Dread 2/4) and my stats are higher than having a 2/4 set bonus from any other t2 set...

    lol wth are you wearing and why
  • karok73karok73 Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Hide GS from other players, but before allowing a player to be able to que/enter a dungeon have a GS AND stat check. If the player doesn't meet the requirements, then the instance is greyed out in the que and hovering the tooltip over the instance would show what they're short on. Make the stat requirement to enter something that is realistically obtainable for the minimum GS, though.

    Even with hiding GS, though, people will just find another way to judge your ability to run an instance with their group. It stems from the fact that people want to have the easiest time running an instance to be able to maximize their game time. That's certainly understandable, but not very helpful to a lower GS toon trying to work their way up through the ranks. On the other hand, the lower GS toon always has the opportunity to start his own party and ask for others with whatever range of GS that they feel is appropriate.

    It's a topic that's easily debatable on both sides of the coin.
    magenubbie wrote: »
    I can turn it off in Forsaken World. And there's plenty of games that don't even allow player inspection from a distance but only in the same party and where people have to ask before you get to see their gear. Just because it's done a lot doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The fact Nestlé doesn't consider water to be a human right doesn't mean the UN stops building sewers and water systems in poor countries. Besides, I know of no other game where people are so hung up on a single number. So it's much more of an issue here than it would be in any other game that allows gear inspection.


    That's what GS if for. To allow you entrance to that dungeon. The game assumes that when you reached a certain score, you have a certain ability to fight mobs. I agree there are better systems to judge that, but this is what we have. If you're allowed in, you're expected to have a certain skill level. If you don't, well the dungeon will be too hard for you. Your loss if you go in wearing the bare minimum.

    It all comes down to ego vs access. If a 9250 GS player asks to join CN I expect a certain level of gameplay. If he doesn't live up to it, I'll find someone who does. I don't expect him to be a god, because he can barely enter and yes, we'll hve to keep an eye on him. But that's no excuse for lack of decent gamplay from his side.


    Won't work. A glass cannon CW can have 10k power, but with no def that damage output is quickly reduced to 0. A dead CW doesn't do any DPS.
  • smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    huejaynus wrote: »
    I dont know about you guys but GS seems to work just fine for me. I currently have 3 different pieces pieces on my CW (Corrupted 1/4, Draconic 1/4 Dread 2/4) and my stats are higher than having a 2/4 set bonus from any other t2 set...

    you are the reason GS fails.
  • seajay13seajay13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    People shouldn't judge each other by GS. Its that plain and simple. GS isn't for them to judge. It has only 1 purpose: to allow or deny you entry to a certain location. While there are much better solutions to deny or grant people access to certain areas (that's for another topic I suppose), this is what we have and that is its only purpose in this game. I would be totally alright with hiding GS from other players. It's not their business to know what GS you have unless you're a e-peen fanatic. You're allowed in the area by the game, so you should be allowed in the team, plain as that. As far as I'm concerned, any other argument for or against a certain GS has nothing to do with the game and everything to do about ego's.
    Agreed good Sir or Miss.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Looks to me like this discussion about replacing GS is not productive unless there is a viable alternative.
    There is no way to differentiate skillful person and less skillful one, even the same person can sometimes play
    really badly (half asleep, not in the mood, occupied with something) or do amazing things on the same char with the same build.
    Even so, there are people I will rather play with, that don't have the standard build or less skilled than many others.

    So, IMO, the system should have two things:
    "premade":
    A group should be able to enter content regardless of limitation, If I'm a group leader and want to take a gearless friend, go with less then 5 and such (solo, duo..).. it's our decision and i should be allowed to.
    It will effect only my groups chance of success and it should be our decision to carry someone, just have a challenge or run however we want and fail or not to fail.

    'public' queue, tiamat and such:
    In instances that have sort of 'matchmaking' either automated, gated, or 'lfg'ed there should be some sort of measurement.
    I think part of the whole lfg crazy GS inflation are a lot of not optimized builds, so the request went up and up for people to assure success.
    Asking for 18k GS to do t2 is amazing (in a bad way) but also i believe getting people with 6k recovery, 0 ArP, and 2k power and fail run after run will bring only frustration and again those crazy requests.
    The most practical thing i can think of is to run the GS through the same famous diminished return functions (https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj)
    And split it to defensive (HP,defense, deflect, ls) and offensive stats. In this way a 6k recovery CW will significantly have less GS than a 3k power 2k ArP, And will promote more balanced builds (no more people with 4.5k crit i hope).

    I do not know if it should be shown publicly or not, or what to do with weapon enchants the provide much more than 300points of gear.
  • destinyknightdestinyknight Member Posts: 962 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I said a long time ago it would come to this. Gear score was fine when the gaps were smaller, now that the gaps widen more and more, it turns into the very problem that plagued WoW during Wotlk.
  • jiubiizeekkjiubiizeekk Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 144 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    The dev's have stated numerous times that Gear score isnt a 100% correct result. Yes 1000 CA might give you a 8% increase in damage Great. But in the first place you need other stats to give u that 8% in a decent amount. Thats why, once you get 2k a.pen, 2-3k Recovery, a relatively high crit chance, a decent amount of defense. Then u dump into power so that CA that you are worrying about will be usefull.
    Gear score gives the relative effectivenes of where your class is in a whole. Honestly You can get a GWF with rank 6/7 enchants to 20k Gear score. And my class a power house, 9.7k power out of battle 11k-12k Power in battle. You also have to think of other people, Most like the run to go smoothly so they choose to aim for higher geared players. It might not be good but it gives the person looking a idea of where you are at.
    Say, a 22k tr the other day in a dungeon run, 2nd boss, he hits the boss 2 times and takes down half his HP, Its not needed but its adored because its faster, compare that to a 15k Tr who doesn't quite have the same stuff and may be still working on some boons same weapon enchantment he may only take down 5% of the HP in 2 blows. Ok still good, because he can life steal and get some HP back when he attacks. Higher chance of survivalbility. Now a 10K TR attempting a t2 Dungeon with a few higher GS players. such as all 15k Ok, he's slightly under geared And of course a higher geared player might want to pull some, So this TR is going to getleft behind. Might even Die and start caling for help, then a player has to back track almost/actually getting himself killed trying to revive the fallen player. making the run take longer than it should have.
    ""but why pull everything???"" Because GWF/TR/CW/SW/DC/HR/GF all have AOE, AoE in a single spot with mass mobs will kill them all faster than stopping kill mob, move on pull mob stop kill them. Loosing stacks of damage and momentum.
    Now u ask why we want to have a general idea of where the player who you are going to invite into your party is at? Its because we want to know if he/she can handle what we like to do.
  • rollingonitrollingonit Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    All I can say is divide and conquer, these games do this well.

    It's a well played out and manipulated microcosm of the real world, and players play to their specific roles well in this charade.

    More specifically to this topic, Im fine with GS as a way to gate content (meaning higher GS is required for more difficult content). And that's all I use it for. If you meet the requirement, you are good to try; if you dont, get your GS up.
    We can pretend.
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  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    So Perfect Vorpal and Perfect Bronzewood would count the same?

    Yes it should. Ideally they should both be reasonably equally effective. GS isn't meant to be an accurate portrayal of effectiveness and you and the real elitists would be misusing it. It's only meant to be a basic guideline. It's up to us to ustilise it the way it was meant to be. For example, a lot of people may not have liked the gs drop of artifact weapons before the off hand came, but they'd still understand that it was more effective anyway.

    Haters gonna hate no matter what happens.
  • destinyknightdestinyknight Member Posts: 962 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    Yes it should. Ideally they should both be reasonably equally effective. GS isn't meant to be an accurate portrayal of effectiveness and you and the real elitists would be misusing it. It's only meant to be a basic guideline. It's up to us to ustilise it the way it was meant to be. For example, a lot of people may not have liked the gs drop of artifact weapons before the off hand came, but they'd still understand that it was more effective anyway.

    Haters gonna hate no matter what happens.

    Agreed, indeed.

    The label of gearscore is given more power than it actually is supposed to entail.
  • millsc14millsc14 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    GS needs to go. Its only used by elitist pigs who like to boot players with a lower GS than them. I had a ranger with tier 3 black ice armor and was booted from VT with it. AS it stands if the devs stated its not accurate than it needs to go, or at least not be able to be seen by others. The need a GS to get into areas like Tiamat is fine.


    you know, just block it from being seen by others on ALL players. Which would mean I cant see yours and you cant see mine.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    millsc14 wrote: »
    GS needs to go. Its only used by elitist pigs who like to boot players with a lower GS than them. I had a ranger with tier 3 black ice armor and was booted from VT with it. AS it stands if the devs stated its not accurate than it needs to go, or at least not be able to be seen by others. The need a GS to get into areas like Tiamat is fine.


    you know, just block it from being seen by others on ALL players. Which would mean I cant see yours and you cant see mine.

    GS should stay, item inspection should stay. Getting rid of it actually makes things worse.

    GS is flawed however it does give some idea of the level of gear, it doesn't give much but it does give something. If you got rid of it people would still try for inspections. Which as seen in the quote above me gets into even more gear prejudice situations as people boot people for "the wrong gear" which is what happened to the above ranger using a pvp armor in pve.

    So the next argument is to get rid of inspection, which only sort of works as people can identify some armors from their visuals. (yes there are cosmetics which is why it only somewhat works that way.)

    Here's the problem with that though. I played another mmo for many years. (not naming the game because of forum rules) The inspection feature in that game was via a webpage that was eventually shutdown leaving no way to inspect others other than visually. What happened at that point is the game became very very pug unfriendly and cliqueified. If you were a new player or an unknown player you had almost no chance of getting into a group for anything because people would be unsure if you could pull your weight. Pugs dried up and everything became guild and channel runs only. Guilds would only invite players they knew and so would channels. Because no one pugged anymore, they rarely got to know new players, new players couldn't find groups to play and they left the game. At this point there wasn't enough new players coming in and staying a while to counterbalance the small stream of vets that always leave as life happens. The server population went into a slow but steady decline.

    Now while this is only one contributing cause to that games issues, but it didn't help things. So as flawed as this system is, it should stay. There is no way to balance the social problems removing it could cause that I have ever seen suggested that I think would work.
  • smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    charononus wrote: »
    GS should stay, item inspection should stay. Getting rid of it actually makes things worse.

    GS is flawed however it does give some idea of the level of gear, it doesn't give much but it does give something. If you got rid of it people would still try for inspections. Which as seen in the quote above me gets into even more gear prejudice situations as people boot people for "the wrong gear" which is what happened to the above ranger using a pvp armor in pve.

    Maybe it's just me but I,d rather have people boot others for having the wrong gear than for not reaching a number that is more often than not, just reached by any means possible even if it's by doing god awful item decisions. At least, this way players would go towards the right item builds instead of going with whatever gives them the highest GS.

    And don't worry, players would still kick others no matter what. If GS go away, then it will be by gear inspection (which is already a much better measurement than GS is). If gear inspection go away, then it will be with pain giver. If pain giver go away, people will just use dps meters!
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    smulch wrote: »
    Maybe it's just me but I,d rather have people boot others for having the wrong gear than for not reaching a number that is more often than not, just reached by any means possible even if it's by doing god awful item decisions. At least, this way players would go towards the right item builds instead of going with whatever gives them the highest GS.

    And don't worry, players would still kick others no matter what. If GS go away, then it will be by gear inspection (which is already a much better measurement than GS is). If gear inspection go away, then it will be with pain giver. If pain giver go away, people will just use dps meters!

    That just proves my point though. It would fix nothing in the end. The problem is social. You don't fix social problems with tech changes. You have to work on the community. Fix the root cause not the symptoms. What needs to happen is a progression path. Tiamat destroyed the progression path and funneled everything into one spot. When you have a progression path the GS snobbery problems are reduced. ( you never eliminate them, you can't eliminate human nature ) Hopefully mod 6 fixes these problems.
  • smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    charononus wrote: »
    That just proves my point though. It would fix nothing in the end. The problem is social. You don't fix social problems with tech changes. You have to work on the community. Fix the root cause not the symptoms. What needs to happen is a progression path. Tiamat destroyed the progression path and funneled everything into one spot. When you have a progression path the GS snobbery problems are reduced. ( you never eliminate them, you can't eliminate human nature ) Hopefully mod 6 fixes these problems.

    It would fix one thing (albeit not the one this fix would be aimed at!)

    And yes, the problem is a social one, no arguing there.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    millsc14 wrote: »
    GS needs to go. Its only used by elitist pigs who like to boot players with a lower GS than them. I had a ranger with tier 3 black ice armor and was booted from VT with it. AS it stands if the devs stated its not accurate than it needs to go, or at least not be able to be seen by others. The need a GS to get into areas like Tiamat is fine.


    you know, just block it from being seen by others on ALL players. Which would mean I cant see yours and you cant see mine.

    BI T 3 gives a higher GS, than the PvE sets, so maybe they kicked you for using PvP equip in PvP, I dont know.

    GS should stay. It is not really effectiv, to know how a unknown player is geared, BUT it is better than nothing. When I did CN farmruns, I went premade. For DK I went PuG most of the times. It was a farmrun for me. I want to complete a farmrun as often as possible in the given time, so I searched for players with similar gear.

    You dont know, how often ppl lied to me, when they asked me to invite them or invited me, when they clearly did not met my asked requirements.

    If you call ppl who ask for a certain gearscore elitist pigs, I could return the favour and say, that all low GS players are lazy ppl who think, that they are entiteled to get carried by other ppl., but I wont colour everyone with the same brush, as you do.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • neoyoshineoyoshi Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    frishter wrote: »
    Voted gs is fine for a few reasons.
    1) People are the problem, not the system. The system could probably do with tweaks though

    Completely agree with this; it's the same growing pains within any community that experienced a Gear-score system to gate content;-it is primarily a human behavioral issue and it usually corrects itself over time.


    The system isn't the problem, people are the problem. Fix the people causing the problem. *thumbs-up*
  • mehguy138mehguy138 Member Posts: 1,803 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Need more suitable system because:

    1. Weapon and armour enchantments don't increase GS.
    2. Weapon damage doesn't increase GS.
    3. Special effects like AP gain or Armour class don't increase GS.

    Either fix these or create new system.
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  • avengingangel93avengingangel93 Member Posts: 192 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The problem with GS is people yes, however, the GS system either needs to be either reworked or gotten rid of. In all honesty? I would rather be happy to see it gone and replaced by something that actually works, and not divides, the gaming community in Neverwinter so badly.
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I am currently working on a weighted GS for my ratings tool and am pretty pleased with the early results. If possible that should be the way to go in the future in the game as well.

    All the QQ about dividing the community is hyperbole though. You need a quick first separator while in /lfg and GS fits the bill.

    I mean, applying some of the logic in this thread, you can easily argue that one shouldn't be able to inspect players whatsoever because PVP gear could be kicked out of PVE content and such.

    Nonsense...
  • vcekvcek Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    How to fix :

    1- artifacts give 0.5x GS
    2- weapon/armour enchants give GS based on rank (perfect ench. would count as r10)
    3- feats don't give GS
    4- boons give GS whether it's an effect or stat bonus (like 20-50 GS per boon regardless)
    5- If its on the tooltip it should affect GS.

    you're welcome.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    We should have another information of players experience, like time played number of dungeon runs, etc. And gs should be reworked.

    Include pet stats, ca bonus, ap gain, armor and weapon enchants, weapon dmg, etc.
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  • darkstarcrashdarkstarcrash Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,382 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Magenubbie's suggestion of zone gating by GS and/or dungeon experience is probably the most sensible.

    Adjusting the Gear score to include weapon enchantments, weapon damage, other stats such as Combat Advantage, running algorithms for diminishing returns on stats,etc.: that would all make GS a better number, but would require much more work for the devs.

    And it's pretty clear that if something doesn't make money for Cryptic/PW, there will not be development time for it. Which is not a criticism: this is a F2P game and money has to come from somewhere.

    The problem with GS is twofold: GS snobs requiring ridiculous GS (16k for Karru, etc.), and Cryptic setting GS requirements too low for difficult content.

    GS elitism is a social problem, and the only solution I know of is to join the Legit channel or a supportive guild. When I started the game, the chat posted in /LFG channel scared me off from running dungeons for a long time.

    However, there is a need to assess players' ability to complete a particular dungeon/skirmish/Tiamat - and GS is the best metric we have for that right now. A fresh 60 with 20k hps, a blue weapon, rank 4 enchants and no armor pen will just not contribute his or her share to a time-sensitive fight like Tiamat. 13k gs will not guarantee that those problems are solved, but it's more likely than at 10k gs.
  • smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Gear score is NOT the best metric we have for judging a player capabilities (prior to running with the player). Inspecting the player is the best metric. People are just too lazy to do it.
  • azealianaazealiana Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    GS gives a myopic view of the toon and the person behind it.

    Dump GS as inspectable by others, and replace it with a "Renown" score that increases as a player completes quests, dungeons, campaigns, etc. It would be a much better gauge of player experience than GS. It shouldn't be too difficult to generate a list of accomplishments that could be inspected by other players - like letters of recommendation if you will.

    The Renown score could progressively add small increases in power and abilities to the character - a true indicator of experience. GS could still be used internally by the engine.

    Let GS snobbery go by the wayside, and let actual accomplishments be the true measure of a players mettle.
  • sarrafelinesarrafeline Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    My problem is how it doesn't actually represent anything. You could have a horribly built TR with 19k, who would be absolutely useless in PVE or PVP, but they would still have 19k GS, so therefore, be 'up to the task'.

    GS reflects actual gear, not capabilities of the character or player. It would seriously be nice to be able to tell, at a glance, that a DC is a DPS spec, vs a healing spec, without having to ask them, or go through trial and error. >_>
  • yokanaanyokanaan Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 151 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    There is nothing wrong with gearscore as long as you are above a certain required cap for some dungeons or skirmishes and you know what you are doing. Many games are based on gs system so I don't see the problem here.

    I like to watch gearscore of players - not because I have some amazing toon because I don't but just out of curiosity. To compare how different choices affect it and what is a difference in dmg between certain classes with the same gs.

    Other than that if you see some offensive class with 11k gs outdamaging some other offensive class with 16 or 17k it's the easiest way to say that sth went wrong. Either the player is using his char badly or there is some broken feature giving some unfair advantage.

    Just staring at someone without seeing his gs won't give you that information.
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