That, I think, is the bottom line: GS is but one way to have an immediate gauge of a player's ability, skewed or padded as it may be. People are impressed by an arbitrarily large number, without regard to how one came about said number. Remove GS and people will just find another way to make that snap, knee-jerk judgement of another player's ability.?
I'm a little late to the topic but just to argue a small point on terminology. GS doesn't really give much indication of a players ability, rather it gives an indication of a characters potential ability. Of course that misses the point of how players actually use GS, as you say bigger = better.
I sit back and watch with a level of ammusement every time I see a thread pop up about harder more challenging content. Most of what you see in game with the seeking of high GS suggests quite number of people just want an easy run to the reward. I wonder how much of this is just the nature of people vs their reaction being influenced by the design of the game. Sorry, random thoughts.
I'm a little late to the topic but just to argue a small point on terminology. GS doesn't really give much indication of a players ability, rather it gives an indication of a characters potential ability. Of course that misses the point of how players actually use GS, as you say bigger = better.
I sit back and watch with a level of ammusement every time I see a thread pop up about harder more challenging content. Most of what you see in game with the seeking of high GS suggests quite number of people just want an easy run to the reward. I wonder how much of this is just the nature of people vs their reaction being influenced by the design of the game. Sorry, random thoughts.
Whether or not it's a true indication of a player's ability, the playerbase tends to use it as such. As I've said previously, there's no guarantee that the 20k GS player knows exactly what they're doing any more than there's any guarantee that the 10k person doesn't. The 10k person may know how to play their class; less so on how to readily farm AD to purchase better gear or short on time to run dungeons to get the better gear. Whereas, the 20k player may have more money than game knowledge and just purchased ZEN to sell for AD and bought up the best gear they could find on the AH.
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No, a FEW items that give more GS are far worse. Let's not make the exceptions the rule
There are an extremely few armor sets that were released after beta that are better than t2. Extremely few. (for pve, black ice is good pvp) Some classes t1 sets are still better. GS doesn't beat a powerful 4pc set bonus.
No, a FEW items that give more GS are far worse. Let's not make the exceptions the rule
no, there's more items that does it than there is that doesn't.
For almost every classes, the t2 sets are the best and yet, you see people using t3 sets.
For everyone, the banners and the water artifacts are just plain <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for pve and yet, you see them used a ton because they give more GS.
Ton of players are using stat boosting companions even if there's a lot of better companions just because they boost GS.
People use <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> jewelry because it gives more GS (of the shore set/hrimnir for example).
People use regen reinforcement kits on their jewelry because it gives higher GS (even though it's just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in pve).
People use regen on their off hand feature because it gives higher GS (even though it's just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in pve).
There are an extremely few armor sets that were released after beta that are better than t2. Extremely few. (for pve, black ice is good pvp) Some classes t1 sets are still better. GS doesn't beat a powerful 4pc set bonus.
Correct, again that is the rare exception in which you are comparing a full tier 2 high viz to purified armor. All the other epic, rare, uncommon, common gear follows the gearscore totempole which is the vast majority of the gear out there.
It doesn't even work because a LOT of items that give more GS than others are far worse than the lower GS item.
that just means player will never play at max capabilities of his gs
no matter how good a player is if he has if a player has only 8999 gs then his power level wont be higher than 8999, if a player has 20k gs then 20k is his max power level, he can be power level 5k, 10k, or 13k, or 20k if he plays perfectly
Well is your whole population just tier 2 sets versus tier 2.5 sets? That isn't really accurate considering you removed all the tier 1, blue, green, common gear. Plus even then, I'm not so sure. Tier 2 High Vizier is better than every single tier 1 gear set and there are more tier 1 and tier 0 epics than tier 2.5 PVP gear.
Correct, again that is the rare exception in which you are comparing a full tier 2 high viz to purified armor. All the other epic, rare, uncommon, common gear follows the gearscore totempole which is the vast majority of the gear out there.
It isn't just CW's and the HV set though.
CW = T2 HV
HR = T2 Royal Guard (been a while this might have changed but doubt it)
GWF = T2 AoW
DC = T1 HP
GF = not positive but probably T1 valiant warrior
TR = sorry no clue, TR and GF are the two I know the least about
SW = T2 AD in most content, T2.5 FI against dragons but that may or may not be because of a bug.
So yes while I'm talking about epic armor sets, that's what talks about gs are about. Endgame gear. No one cares about pre 60 or pre set bonus items, we all know that those aren't as good as a set.
Anyway, I voted in the "GS is fine as it is" for the following reason:
Other games use gear level, gear score, item score, equipment level, item level... and they always worked properly, pointing out which equipment is better... and guess which equipments are better in those games? The newer ones.
Why is that so hard to happen here? Why can't we have better sets and harder content for the better your gear is? Why can't the item designers make new sets that are actually better, new 4p bonuses that are actually better, matching with the stats of the piece of gear?
We don't need a rework to the GS system, we need a rework to the 2p and 4p bonuses. Set bonuses aren't supposed to be as good as they are here, you can see in any other game that set bonuses are mundane and represent only a little of the group performance. 30% more damage to the mob being attacked with a set bonus? What the hell!
CW = T2 HV
HR = T2 Royal Guard (been a while this might have changed but doubt it)
GWF = T2 AoW
DC = T1 HP
GF = not positive but probably T1 valiant warrior
TR = sorry no clue, TR and GF are the two I know the least about
SW = T2 AD in most content, T2.5 FI against dragons but that may or may not be because of a bug.
So yes while I'm talking about epic armor sets, that's what talks about gs are about. Endgame gear. No one cares about pre 60 or pre set bonus items, we all know that those aren't as good as a set.
Trappers do not need the RG set bonus and never use it because it is too ArPen heavy. A buff-bot GF probably wants KC. Conq works well with BI or Timeless. I really could not tell you for TR either.
no, there's more items that does it than there is that doesn't.
For almost every classes, the t2 sets are the best and yet, you see people using t3 sets.
For everyone, the banners and the water artifacts are just plain <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for pve and yet, you see them used a ton because they give more GS.
Ton of players are using stat boosting companions even if there's a lot of better companions just because they boost GS.
People use <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> jewelry because it gives more GS (of the shore set/hrimnir for example).
People use regen reinforcement kits on their jewelry because it gives higher GS (even though it's just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in pve).
People use regen on their off hand feature because it gives higher GS (even though it's just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in pve).
That's far from a minority of items.
Today I saw a 23k DC. 23k! I didn't think it was possible to have a 23k DC. Well this DC was most certainly not wearing High Prophet. And as you mention, this DC had the Regen reinforcement kits and had the +150 Power offhand bonus for using Healer's Lore, which is a very meh class feature. Why? I can only imagine: Because it's MOAR POWAH and it boosts GS! This DC *could* have been using High Prophet and use a class feature that, say, boosts crit severity instead, but then this DC's GS wouldn't be in the stratosphere.
These are the stupid things people do just for the sake of boosting GS.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
no, there's more items that does it than there is that doesn't.
For almost every classes, the t2 sets are the best and yet, you see people using t3 sets.
For everyone, the banners and the water artifacts are just plain <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for pve and yet, you see them used a ton because they give more GS.
Ton of players are using stat boosting companions even if there's a lot of better companions just because they boost GS.
People use <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> jewelry because it gives more GS (of the shore set/hrimnir for example).
People use regen reinforcement kits on their jewelry because it gives higher GS (even though it's just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in pve).
People use regen on their off hand feature because it gives higher GS (even though it's just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in pve).
That's far from a minority of items.
Hrimnir set is one of the most balanced sets there are, the 60x8 will add to all the abilities without pushing DR on dominant stats and adding to less 'popular' stats and with that giving a lot for the slots, regardless of the total sum. For example the DR rings with 80x6 are way worse in that regard. Using the set gives option to balance the stats with enchants instead of 'fighting' to much of some stats with the 'ancient' sets, or what happens today with JC where most people will get way to much ArP without easy way to balance it.
People put regen because some of those people dont want to swap all their slots for PvP, swapping armor and powers is a hassle enough.
And yet having regen in PvP is a must (especially for some classes)
OH, same as above, unless someone will magicly start giving away 4mil RP so people can have multiple main hands and off-hands, compromises will have to be made.
Banner has the same stats as GWF class artifact except LS replaces ArP, even without ls or ArP counting towards GS, having power and HP in most cases is the best possible combination of stats do to their lack of DR. And using one of those artifacts will still be best for many classes even if the entire artifact would give 0 gs.
--- not related to the quote above, but more generally speaking --
There are a lot assumptions here (in the thread, on both sides of the argument) that if a person uses some sort of build or gear he/she knows nothing and only do so to inflate gs. Perhaps more humility ? people have tested mixed sets and t3 (BI) and if some people in this thread don't know or understand the reasoning for it, it doesn't mean there is none or that it is bad for the game style those people play. IMO, there are bad choices (all stat companions are good example) and some very viable choices (mixed armor to get max hp/tenacity for example) but i think this discussion should be over the influence of gs on the avarage player and not some exceptions and outliers.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Today I saw a 23k DC. 23k! I didn't think it was possible to have a 23k DC. Well this DC was most certainly not wearing High Prophet. And as you mention, this DC had the Regen reinforcement kits and had the +150 Power offhand bonus for using Healer's Lore, which is a very meh class feature. Why? I can only imagine: Because it's MOAR POWAH and it boosts GS! This DC *could* have been using High Prophet and use a class feature that, say, boosts crit severity instead, but then this DC's GS wouldn't be in the stratosphere.
These are the stupid things people do just for the sake of boosting GS.
For most classes that don't have assured crit or high crit chance from abilities, power will give more than crit severity and crit chance stat. I can write the math and cutoffs if someone interested, though there were many threads about crit,power and such and there are guides that discussed it (like Kaelecs - sorry if i misspell).
I have not played DC since the changes, so i'll have to ask:
Will High Prophet will be more viable to tank in PvP than the BI or mixed sets ?
How much HP he had ? Total regen ?
because looks to me like another PvP build and i can't blame people for not swapping every two seconds (no good option to accomodate this in the game) or having dual sets of everything ,way to expansive and hardly needed for PvE where you can roflstomp almost everything with the 13k-14k so the added 10k for PvP shouldn't be an issue.
But even if not, it's an outlier and not the avarage, and even worse, hiding the inspection option or gs wont suddenly make those people build something else, it will only prevent other people who know better helping them.
Regen is a terrible pve stat for every classes.
Delection is a terrible pve stat for most classes.
Hp is very often pointless past a certain point in pve.
The Hrimnir set isn't good, it's terrible for everyone. Every classes have stats that are either useless or very near useless. It's just a terrible way to distribute stats and is just a newb trap.
That's the thing though, the GS culture is so "in your face" in this game that the average player stack GS as much as possible in every way possible. They do that because they think it's the right thing to do and to get groups.
The problem with GS isn't really the system itself. The system itself works fine to require people a bare minimum of stat ratings (hopefully the RIGHT stat ratings) and this (mostly) works just fine. There are a couple of ways it doesn't work great. For instance, when I was about 12.7GS or some such, I could equip templar bracers, get my GS over 13k, then queue for eSoT, get in there, and put my t2 set back on. As you say, skill is more important and I tend to know what I'm doing and research fights ahead of time and such. I finished that epic shores probably about 20 or 30 times over a couple of weeks before I finally got over 13k GS without having to fudge the numbers for the queue. So yeah, it's flawed, but it mostly works as it's intended when used by the system itself. I wouldn't want to see 9k GS groups in there because they really want their draconic set right now. But the system itself isn't the real issue.
The real problem with gearscore is the way some of the players use it. Sometimes it's some sort of badge of honor or something and people act all high and mighty because their number is high. "Hey, I'm 22k GS, I'm awesome, you better do what I say because I know better than you. Just look at my 22k GS." Or another funny one is when you see people in /lfg putting groups together with double the GS requirement of the content: "LFM PK 15k+." In PvP you'll get trolled for being too low GS, but the only way to get better PvP gear is to PvP. This PvP example is, I think, another example where the system itself is slightly flawed since the matchmaking is practically nonexistent. But still the main problems here with regards to gearscore are not the system itself so much as how the players are using that system.
You're right that people should care more about skill than GS, but the game system itself still needs to care about it in the way it was intended to. I got kicked all of one time in those 20-30 runs of epic shores while running it at under 13k, because my skill more than made up for those couple of hundred GS points I was lacking; no one even noticed. Rather than being carried, I was helping. But had I been allowed to queue for eSoT without even having to fudge the numbers a little bit back when I first hit 60? That's just crazy. And as others have said ITT, I also don't really trust that any replacement system wouldn't be just as bad, if not worse.
My enchantments DO affect my GS but really too much ado about nothing. In my experience only people with low GS that want to get in a group, place etc that require higher gs than they have, complain about it. sounds like a long (tooooo long) page of whining
now take the results and see how many people that voted no have a low GS
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hellwinkleMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited January 2015
I voted to have it replaced. Every Cleric in the game knows its broken. In mod three I spent a ton of time trying to push my GS over 14k when blue clad players were pushing 16-17k easy. I had to replace my BIS armor set (T1 High Prophet) to the draconic templar just to be able to get into LOL runs. (I sneak my HP gear back on once we are inside)
GS is simply the sum total of all of the stat points on your gear
Hopefully it's not this. This would be grossly inaccurate, and an open door for troll builds with tons of gs and zero efficiency, say a gwf with 20k in DEF and zero in any other stat. I guess the GS takes into account the percentages derived from the stats, not the stats themselves.
Hopefully it's not this. This would be grossly inaccurate, and an open door for troll builds with tons of gs and zero efficiency, say a gwf with 20k in DEF and zero in any other stat. I guess the GS takes into account the percentages derived from the stats, not the stats themselves.
no, it's simply the total of: power + crit + armor pentration + regeneration + recovery + hp/4 (on gear only) + defense + deflect. That's all it is.
Hopefully it's not this. This would be grossly inaccurate, and an open door for troll builds with tons of gs and zero efficiency, say a gwf with 20k in DEF and zero in any other stat. I guess the GS takes into account the percentages derived from the stats, not the stats themselves.
As I said before, it's not meant to be accurate. It's a convenient way to see how many stats you have in total (minus some annoyingly not included stats). Noone would have 20k in defence because that's just a horrible idea. Maxing con and getting more hp would probably be the more effective method. If you want to gimp your toon for a higher number that doesn't bare as much importance as you're letting on, then go ahead. Why does it matter? Personally I like knowing how many stats I have in total and comparing myself to others easily. Say if someone has a lot more power than I do, I can look at their gs and figure that it's coming from an extra source.
Comments
I'm a little late to the topic but just to argue a small point on terminology. GS doesn't really give much indication of a players ability, rather it gives an indication of a characters potential ability. Of course that misses the point of how players actually use GS, as you say bigger = better.
I sit back and watch with a level of ammusement every time I see a thread pop up about harder more challenging content. Most of what you see in game with the seeking of high GS suggests quite number of people just want an easy run to the reward. I wonder how much of this is just the nature of people vs their reaction being influenced by the design of the game. Sorry, random thoughts.
Whether or not it's a true indication of a player's ability, the playerbase tends to use it as such. As I've said previously, there's no guarantee that the 20k GS player knows exactly what they're doing any more than there's any guarantee that the 10k person doesn't. The 10k person may know how to play their class; less so on how to readily farm AD to purchase better gear or short on time to run dungeons to get the better gear. Whereas, the 20k player may have more money than game knowledge and just purchased ZEN to sell for AD and bought up the best gear they could find on the AH.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Gearscore right now is just a way for the devs to gate some content
It doesn't even work because a LOT of items that give more GS than others are far worse than the lower GS item.
No, a FEW items that give more GS are far worse. Let's not make the exceptions the rule
There are an extremely few armor sets that were released after beta that are better than t2. Extremely few. (for pve, black ice is good pvp) Some classes t1 sets are still better. GS doesn't beat a powerful 4pc set bonus.
no, there's more items that does it than there is that doesn't.
For almost every classes, the t2 sets are the best and yet, you see people using t3 sets.
For everyone, the banners and the water artifacts are just plain <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for pve and yet, you see them used a ton because they give more GS.
Ton of players are using stat boosting companions even if there's a lot of better companions just because they boost GS.
People use <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> jewelry because it gives more GS (of the shore set/hrimnir for example).
People use regen reinforcement kits on their jewelry because it gives higher GS (even though it's just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in pve).
People use regen on their off hand feature because it gives higher GS (even though it's just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in pve).
That's far from a minority of items.
Correct, again that is the rare exception in which you are comparing a full tier 2 high viz to purified armor. All the other epic, rare, uncommon, common gear follows the gearscore totempole which is the vast majority of the gear out there.
That's a very minor minor sample of the whole gear database
no it's not. You need to see it as a per slot.
I play a CW, a DC, a TR and a GWF and the items that give the more GS are worse than the previous sets.
Respectively: HV, HP, SBC and AoW.
that just means player will never play at max capabilities of his gs
no matter how good a player is if he has if a player has only 8999 gs then his power level wont be higher than 8999, if a player has 20k gs then 20k is his max power level, he can be power level 5k, 10k, or 13k, or 20k if he plays perfectly
Well is your whole population just tier 2 sets versus tier 2.5 sets? That isn't really accurate considering you removed all the tier 1, blue, green, common gear. Plus even then, I'm not so sure. Tier 2 High Vizier is better than every single tier 1 gear set and there are more tier 1 and tier 0 epics than tier 2.5 PVP gear.
It isn't just CW's and the HV set though.
CW = T2 HV
HR = T2 Royal Guard (been a while this might have changed but doubt it)
GWF = T2 AoW
DC = T1 HP
GF = not positive but probably T1 valiant warrior
TR = sorry no clue, TR and GF are the two I know the least about
SW = T2 AD in most content, T2.5 FI against dragons but that may or may not be because of a bug.
So yes while I'm talking about epic armor sets, that's what talks about gs are about. Endgame gear. No one cares about pre 60 or pre set bonus items, we all know that those aren't as good as a set.
Other games use gear level, gear score, item score, equipment level, item level... and they always worked properly, pointing out which equipment is better... and guess which equipments are better in those games? The newer ones.
Why is that so hard to happen here? Why can't we have better sets and harder content for the better your gear is? Why can't the item designers make new sets that are actually better, new 4p bonuses that are actually better, matching with the stats of the piece of gear?
We don't need a rework to the GS system, we need a rework to the 2p and 4p bonuses. Set bonuses aren't supposed to be as good as they are here, you can see in any other game that set bonuses are mundane and represent only a little of the group performance. 30% more damage to the mob being attacked with a set bonus? What the hell!
Trappers do not need the RG set bonus and never use it because it is too ArPen heavy. A buff-bot GF probably wants KC. Conq works well with BI or Timeless. I really could not tell you for TR either.
EVERY item that gives more GS is worse, if it is a part of the wrong build.
Today I saw a 23k DC. 23k! I didn't think it was possible to have a 23k DC. Well this DC was most certainly not wearing High Prophet. And as you mention, this DC had the Regen reinforcement kits and had the +150 Power offhand bonus for using Healer's Lore, which is a very meh class feature. Why? I can only imagine: Because it's MOAR POWAH and it boosts GS! This DC *could* have been using High Prophet and use a class feature that, say, boosts crit severity instead, but then this DC's GS wouldn't be in the stratosphere.
These are the stupid things people do just for the sake of boosting GS.
Hrimnir set is one of the most balanced sets there are, the 60x8 will add to all the abilities without pushing DR on dominant stats and adding to less 'popular' stats and with that giving a lot for the slots, regardless of the total sum. For example the DR rings with 80x6 are way worse in that regard. Using the set gives option to balance the stats with enchants instead of 'fighting' to much of some stats with the 'ancient' sets, or what happens today with JC where most people will get way to much ArP without easy way to balance it.
People put regen because some of those people dont want to swap all their slots for PvP, swapping armor and powers is a hassle enough.
And yet having regen in PvP is a must (especially for some classes)
OH, same as above, unless someone will magicly start giving away 4mil RP so people can have multiple main hands and off-hands, compromises will have to be made.
Banner has the same stats as GWF class artifact except LS replaces ArP, even without ls or ArP counting towards GS, having power and HP in most cases is the best possible combination of stats do to their lack of DR. And using one of those artifacts will still be best for many classes even if the entire artifact would give 0 gs.
--- not related to the quote above, but more generally speaking --
There are a lot assumptions here (in the thread, on both sides of the argument) that if a person uses some sort of build or gear he/she knows nothing and only do so to inflate gs. Perhaps more humility ? people have tested mixed sets and t3 (BI) and if some people in this thread don't know or understand the reasoning for it, it doesn't mean there is none or that it is bad for the game style those people play. IMO, there are bad choices (all stat companions are good example) and some very viable choices (mixed armor to get max hp/tenacity for example) but i think this discussion should be over the influence of gs on the avarage player and not some exceptions and outliers.
For most classes that don't have assured crit or high crit chance from abilities, power will give more than crit severity and crit chance stat. I can write the math and cutoffs if someone interested, though there were many threads about crit,power and such and there are guides that discussed it (like Kaelecs - sorry if i misspell).
I have not played DC since the changes, so i'll have to ask:
Will High Prophet will be more viable to tank in PvP than the BI or mixed sets ?
How much HP he had ? Total regen ?
because looks to me like another PvP build and i can't blame people for not swapping every two seconds (no good option to accomodate this in the game) or having dual sets of everything ,way to expansive and hardly needed for PvE where you can roflstomp almost everything with the 13k-14k so the added 10k for PvP shouldn't be an issue.
But even if not, it's an outlier and not the avarage, and even worse, hiding the inspection option or gs wont suddenly make those people build something else, it will only prevent other people who know better helping them.
Delection is a terrible pve stat for most classes.
Hp is very often pointless past a certain point in pve.
The Hrimnir set isn't good, it's terrible for everyone. Every classes have stats that are either useless or very near useless. It's just a terrible way to distribute stats and is just a newb trap.
That's the thing though, the GS culture is so "in your face" in this game that the average player stack GS as much as possible in every way possible. They do that because they think it's the right thing to do and to get groups.
The real problem with gearscore is the way some of the players use it. Sometimes it's some sort of badge of honor or something and people act all high and mighty because their number is high. "Hey, I'm 22k GS, I'm awesome, you better do what I say because I know better than you. Just look at my 22k GS." Or another funny one is when you see people in /lfg putting groups together with double the GS requirement of the content: "LFM PK 15k+." In PvP you'll get trolled for being too low GS, but the only way to get better PvP gear is to PvP. This PvP example is, I think, another example where the system itself is slightly flawed since the matchmaking is practically nonexistent. But still the main problems here with regards to gearscore are not the system itself so much as how the players are using that system.
You're right that people should care more about skill than GS, but the game system itself still needs to care about it in the way it was intended to. I got kicked all of one time in those 20-30 runs of epic shores while running it at under 13k, because my skill more than made up for those couple of hundred GS points I was lacking; no one even noticed. Rather than being carried, I was helping. But had I been allowed to queue for eSoT without even having to fudge the numbers a little bit back when I first hit 60? That's just crazy. And as others have said ITT, I also don't really trust that any replacement system wouldn't be just as bad, if not worse.
Hopefully it's not this. This would be grossly inaccurate, and an open door for troll builds with tons of gs and zero efficiency, say a gwf with 20k in DEF and zero in any other stat. I guess the GS takes into account the percentages derived from the stats, not the stats themselves.
no, it's simply the total of: power + crit + armor pentration + regeneration + recovery + hp/4 (on gear only) + defense + deflect. That's all it is.
As I said before, it's not meant to be accurate. It's a convenient way to see how many stats you have in total (minus some annoyingly not included stats). Noone would have 20k in defence because that's just a horrible idea. Maxing con and getting more hp would probably be the more effective method. If you want to gimp your toon for a higher number that doesn't bare as much importance as you're letting on, then go ahead. Why does it matter? Personally I like knowing how many stats I have in total and comparing myself to others easily. Say if someone has a lot more power than I do, I can look at their gs and figure that it's coming from an extra source.