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It's time to get rid of Gear Score

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  • pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    lewel555 wrote: »
    Hopefully it's not this. This would be grossly inaccurate, and an open door for troll builds with tons of gs and zero efficiency, say a gwf with 20k in DEF and zero in any other stat. I guess the GS takes into account the percentages derived from the stats, not the stats themselves.

    It IS that. Just the sum of stats.

    But not even all the stats.
  • pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    drezzat wrote: »
    now take the results and see how many people that voted no have a low GS

    Okay look.

    Obviously I voted no. And my two most geared characters are a CW that is just under 19k, and a DC that is just over 15k. Not lowbies.

    And in terms of doing solo content, they are about the same DPS-wise. Actually the DC is a little bit faster because of all debuffs that just speed things up. Yes the Righteous DC and High Prophet set really are that amazing.

    But if you only look at GS, you would never know this. When forming a party, you would likely pick my 19k CW over my 15k DC without a second thought, because obviously higher GS means more skill, better player, more DPS, more experience, etc.??? Right????

    And the actual GS snobs and bigots would have my DC excluded from content like Tiamat, even though my DC brings far more group buffing abilities than my CW does.

    The "GS culture" that we have just encourages people to stack more GS. I could easily put my DC into a set that boosts GS by over 1k. But then you would lose the amazing High Prophet debuff. Is that what you really want?
  • zekethesinnerzekethesinner Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 805 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    pointsman wrote: »
    Okay look.

    Obviously I voted no. And my two most geared characters are a CW that is just under 19k, and a DC that is just over 15k. Not lowbies.

    And in terms of doing solo content, they are about the same DPS-wise. Actually the DC is a little bit faster because of all debuffs that just speed things up. Yes the Righteous DC and High Prophet set really are that amazing.

    But if you only look at GS, you would never know this. When forming a party, you would likely pick my 19k CW over my 15k DC without a second thought, because obviously higher GS means more skill, better player, more DPS, more experience, etc.??? Right????

    And the actual GS snobs and bigots would have my DC excluded from content like Tiamat, even though my DC brings far more group buffing abilities than my CW does.

    The "GS culture" that we have just encourages people to stack more GS. I could easily put my DC into a set that boosts GS by over 1k. But then you would lose the amazing High Prophet debuff. Is that what you really want?

    And u think what? That removing gs will change somthing? ppl will start to ask for attack/protection ratio, will we remove this too? then they will start calling for 10k power cws with HV set only, what then? WE need to have a tool to measure ppl capability, GS may be not the best one, but it at least show u have put something in this game, time or manies, but u did... And yes HP on dc is a good set, evry1 not halfbrainder knows that, evry1 else r not even worth wasting time on them. And i know 23k gs dc with HP, what does that say about ur 15k dc? It only means u havent put enought time/manies into him.


    (Sin)cerely,
    Kain


  • edited January 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    23k on a dc means that he's using crappy artifacts to increase GS and stat giving companions. Probably with regen on rings and offhand feature too.
  • zekethesinnerzekethesinner Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 805 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    magenubbie wrote: »
    Allow me to correct you there. It means the 23k player has money to spend on pointless stuff. That 15k DC pointsman has is more than efficient enough for the current content as it is.

    Ofc its more than efficient enought for the current content, so is 15k tr (since they only need to max power and go on mechanic crit), 15k cw (since they can be perfect stun bots), 15k gf(since they r only good as buff bots, unfortunetly u cant compare as dps to any other class, even gwf) and 15k sw if right builded, does it mean they stop at 15k?


  • zekethesinnerzekethesinner Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 805 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    smulch wrote: »
    23k on a dc means that he's using crappy artifacts to increase GS and stat giving companions. Probably with regen on rings and offhand feature too.

    Like this 20k dc with 18k hp i met in mod4? Yeah, he was wrong builded, well currently i know 2 dc around ~23k gs, with one i didnt played too much, so hard to judge, but another is just a monster. And no he has no crappy artis (by my eye, since i ahve no idea what is considered as crappy stat arti for dc) or crappy offhand boon, no idea about companions( beside raidiant)

    (Sin)cerely
    Kain


  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Like this 20k dc with 18k hp i met in mod4? Yeah, he was wrong builded, well currently i know 2 dc around ~23k gs, with one i didnt played too much, so hard to judge, but another is just a monster. And no he has no crappy artis (by my eye, since i ahve no idea what is considered as crappy stat arti for dc) or crappy offhand boon, no idea about companions( beside raidiant)

    (Sin)cerely
    Kain

    If the active bonus of a companion is a stat like power, it's a crappy companion meant to inflate gs but it doesn't actually add much to your character.

    Offhand boon, I think people pick regen to inflate their gs.

    Hope that helps you understand.
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    charononus wrote: »
    If the active bonus of a companion is a stat like power, it's a crappy companion meant to inflate gs but it doesn't actually add much to your character.

    That's a little too across-the-board for my taste. My buffing GF makes good use of stat companions because there is exactly one companion that fits the build in spreading buffs around, and that's the Blacksmith. Other than that, nothing. So I'm getting a bunch of Deflect through the other pet slots to min/max my char.

    Purple Sellsword is also a great DPS pet, it adds more than others without stats. But have to say I'm only using it on all my chars because I can't get a hand on that Dragon Cultist...
  • umcjdkingumcjdking Member Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    loboguild wrote: »
    That's a little too across-the-board for my taste. My buffing GF makes good use of stat companions because there is exactly one companion that fits the build in spreading buffs around, and that's the Blacksmith. Other than that, nothing. So I'm getting a bunch of Deflect through the other pet slots to min/max my char.

    Purple Sellsword is also a great DPS pet, it adds more than others without stats. But have to say I'm only using it on all my chars because I can't get a hand on that Dragon Cultist...

    Neverember Guard?
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Well, if you have DC artefact, AP gain necklace, CA artefact, all legendary, all R9 or 10, why should you not go for regeneration? All other stats are way over dimishing returns.

    Its nice to see ppl with 15k GS telling ppl with BIS or near BIS equip, how to play or equip their chars.

    I am not talking about 2/2 set ppl with Himrir set, but personalized gemmed rings, 7 artefacts etc. You will hit dimishing returns on all other stats, AP gain and CA bonus included, so regeneration is a solid option, even if you do mostly PvE.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    asterotg wrote: »
    Well, if you have DC artefact, AP gain necklace, CA artefact, all legendary, all R9 or 10, why should you not go for regeneration? All other stats are way over dimishing returns.

    Its nice to see ppl with 15k GS telling ppl with BIS or near BIS equip, how to play or equip their chars.

    I am not talking about 2/2 set ppl with Himrir set, but personalized gemmed rings, 7 artefacts etc. You will hit dimishing returns on all other stats, AP gain and CA bonus included, so regeneration is a solid option, even if you do mostly PvE.

    Even if you when you hit diminishing returns, it's better to keep going for those stats. A stat that give a fraction of what it used to is still better than a stat that give nothing (which is what regen do).
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    loboguild wrote: »
    That's a little too across-the-board for my taste. My buffing GF makes good use of stat companions because there is exactly one companion that fits the build in spreading buffs around, and that's the Blacksmith. Other than that, nothing. So I'm getting a bunch of Deflect through the other pet slots to min/max my char.

    Purple Sellsword is also a great DPS pet, it adds more than others without stats. But have to say I'm only using it on all my chars because I can't get a hand on that Dragon Cultist...

    I disagree with you completely. 300 power is all you get from that sellsword. Lets see what else you could be using as a GF

    First there are a few pets that do incoming healing. As you aren't a massive dps class this will help you stay alive and doesn't go into gs. May not be the best but better than power.

    Rust monster will debuff the mobs so they do less damage to you when you are hit. Also nice for a tank and no gs benefit.

    Dread Warrior = more threat, good for a tank

    Blacksmith = more reflect

    Going for stats is the worst possible option.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    smulch wrote: »
    Even if you when you hit diminishing returns, it's better to keep going for those stats. A stat that give a fraction of what it used to is still better than a stat that give nothing (which is what regen do).

    Regen gives me HP, with ~30k HP it is significant, so if you want to go for a glass cannon built with max dps, regen is useless. IMO a dead char does less dmg, than a living one, so I went for surviveability, after I capped the other stats.

    If you do some PvP, regen is even of more use.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    smulch wrote: »
    Even if you when you hit diminishing returns, it's better to keep going for those stats. A stat that give a fraction of what it used to is still better than a stat that give nothing (which is what regen do).

    Kind of overreacting imo. It's not really any worse than any of the other options. The ones complaining about it sound more elitist than the ones they claim to be elitist.

    Oh how the internet makes me disappointed towards humanity.
  • rarefactionrarefaction Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Getting rid of gear score will not get rid of snobby attitudes.
  • smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Lifesteal is about 10 times stronger than regen.

    Regen is a wasted stat in 100% of the possible scenarios in pve.
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    umcjdking wrote: »
    Neverember Guard?

    I'm pretty sure 300 Deflect gives me more survivability than a 1% chance to heal 1%.
  • lordzalmlordzalm Member Posts: 107 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    smulch wrote: »
    Lifesteal is about 10 times stronger than regen.

    Regen is a wasted stat in 100% of the possible scenarios in pve.

    life steal is better, yes, but regen isnt totally wasted. Its about worthless in a fight usually, but after a fight, it gives you a way to heal up without wasting pots, and it does cushion the dmg during the fight some. Its not totally worthless, just one of the least effective stats in the game.

    Also depends on your class. A GF would be better with loads of regen since they rarely get a lot of dmg out. That makes a GF regen and lifesteal about equal in terms of usefulness. But on something like a SW, lifesteal is perfect, since they do tons of dmg all the time. Same goes to a HR, since most HR stay out of dmg, regen or lifesteal could be used, since HR dmg is generally low on a trapper.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    smulch wrote: »
    Lifesteal is about 10 times stronger than regen.

    Regen is a wasted stat in 100% of the possible scenarios in pve.

    Some of us PvP ! And not enough to swap Every part of gear.
    And absolutely 0 need for more Life steal
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    charononus wrote: »
    I disagree with you completely. 300 power is all you get from that sellsword. Lets see what else you could be using as a GF

    First there are a few pets that do incoming healing. As you aren't a massive dps class this will help you stay alive and doesn't go into gs. May not be the best but better than power.

    Rust monster will debuff the mobs so they do less damage to you when you are hit. Also nice for a tank and no gs benefit.

    Dread Warrior = more threat, good for a tank

    Blacksmith = more reflect

    Going for stats is the worst possible option.

    My GF does not use Sellsword, only my DPS classes do. GF has Augment, Blacksmith, Cave Bear, and +600 Deflect on the pets. Rust Monster is pretty solid because it can spread via KV and I own it and switch it depending on the situation. Don't need Threat, I'm a buffer.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    loboguild wrote: »
    My GF does not use Sellsword, only my DPS classes do. GF has Augment, Blacksmith, Cave Bear, and +600 Deflect on the pets. Rust Monster is pretty solid because it can spread via KV and I own it and switch it depending on the situation. Don't need Threat, I'm a buffer.

    Oh man on a dps class there are so many better options.

    Erinyes, Dancing Blade, Fire Archon, Wild hunt rider, blink dog, etc etc etc. There are tons of better pets for dps classes.

    edit*

    I should note that I have a bunch of stat pets from promotions that are account wide that I use when running up a new toon, because well they're free. But I don't consider them endgame pets.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    smulch wrote: »
    Lifesteal is about 10 times stronger than regen.

    Regen is a wasted stat in 100% of the possible scenarios in pve.

    And you can't get lifesteal from jewel kits and offhand boost. Plus if they actually made hard content it would be more helpful.
  • discoricediscorice Member Posts: 371 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    People that have been playing long enough to have a high gear score know it isn't everything. I have two moderately high GS toons that don't look as tough as they are because a lot of their stats aren't reflected in their gear scores. anyone that opts for the lathander set for example - that ac boost is nice, but won't be reflected in your gear score, whereas other sets give bonuses to stats that make you appear to be better geared when that might not actually be the case.

    Gear score does tell part of the story though. it does take a significant amount of time, effort, or cash to get over say... 16k. Chances are that person knows at least something about their build. That 10k GWF named InvincibleGodKiller666 or whatever might still be getting used to the running a lvl 60 toon, while the 21k TR named Yumad Lolbutthertz might have a somewhat better idea of his or her role on a team.

    Gear score is fine the way it is. Smart players know it doesn't tell the whole story. Stop crying about people you probably wouldn't want to team with ignoring you. Make friends, team with them, run epics in epic fashion. Forge the character you want without dragging on high GS teams looking for speed runs, then when you get there, you too can farm things ad nauseum until the only joy you get from the game is making fun of lowbies.

    Or you know... help people or whatever...
    Fear Of A Disco Planet
  • bielka72bielka72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Personally I think the Gear score system is fine and here is why.

    In PVE, with pugs I would rather run with a higher GS than a player with a lower GS, but I am willing to give everybody the benefit of the doubt. Of course a higher GS is no guarantee that they are any good but if we take into account the paingiver chart as well, alongside their GS the picture becomes clearer. For example, lets say you are running epic shores and everything is fine until the last boss. The party gets wiped. Okay, it happens, lets try again. But the same thing happens and you notice there isn't enough DPS to kill the boss. You try again and again.

    At some point you going to get annoyed and frustrated..plus this is taking too much of your already limited time up. So what do you do? Open up the paingiver chart and see who is doing what. Now everybody know that paingiver chart can be manipulated, for example the first person, typically a CW who runs ahead of everybody usually gets top billing but....

    You scroll down, and see at the bottom the player who does the least damage, and it is low. Not low for a million but by several million or more. In fact there is a wide guld between him and everybody else, so you inspect him and low and behold his GS is low compared to everybody else, (perhaps he still has green items and no not artifact items either!)

    So you have a choice...you can try to run the fight again for the 5th time and pray (but wait...haven't you got to cook for you spouse, pick up the kids, write that paper or do something important in real life like now) that you will suceed or you can kick him.

    So you run the fight again and waste another five to ten minutes and fail. Or you kick him and then a high GS comes in and you beat the boss easy.

    Hypthetical scenario? No.. This happens and happened to me many many times. Wait... but you say perhaps you could like educate the guy..well you could..but it can't get better gear at the moment. So far easier to kick him.

    Of course you can't use the paingiver chart to assess clerics, but you generally get an idea when people the party start complaining about the cleric not healing them. As for guardian fighters, well, they do have their uses as well.

    In PVP, as a general rule the higher a GS the more potent the guy will be usually but now always. A CW with medium GS can be dangerious and kill a higher geared player, not usually in a 1 vs 1 but any any given Sunday.

    I have been in a party where a GWF had a very high gear score but was being killed all the time and killing nobody. He had rank 10s etc. When the rest of the party mocked him, he admitted he was only into PVE and had no clue about PVP.

    But this is rare.

    In another party, last week, we had a player in pvp with 4k GS......(I have 19K+) and he got wiped out and his lack of gear totally effected the match.

    I'm happy with the Gear score system. If your GS is too low, improve it, it's not that hard. I have alts who do nothing but professions and who wear blue gear -they have a GS of just under 10K and I don't play with them. It's not hard, the people with low GS are either just starting the game, lazy or stupid.

    So if I'm running a pug dungeon or skirmish and I see that the 10K CW is pulling his weight in damage, I'll say nothing, but I'm happy to kick, if possible, people who drag the game down to their low standards, making it bad for everybody else.
  • inthefade462inthefade462 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    So you are saying you kick low gs pugs from skirmishes?

    If you (at 19k+ as you say) can't carry a dungeon or skirmish, you are the bad player, not the low gs guy. The low gs does what he can do with what he has. You expect him to carry you or something?

    Since we've established that you are the bad player in the party, you should just invite a GF with you, especially in esot. it'll help until you get better at playing the game.
  • bielka72bielka72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Only if you fail the skirmish or dungeon repeatedly....you like wasting time?

    And why should I or any other player carry a team? The low GS is just free riding and contributing very little.

    And we have not established that I am a bad player..are you a gypsy can you read fortunes?

    Or perhaps you are one of those altruistic do gooder people who actually are not very good at the game because you spend all the time helping other people.

    We could meet in PVP or PVE and find out if you like.
    So you are saying you kick low gs pugs from skirmishes?

    If you can't carry a dungeon or skirmish, you are the bad player, not the low gs guy. The low gs does what he can do with what he has. You expect him to carry you or something?

    Since we've established that you are the bad player in the party, you should just invite a GF with you, especially in esot. it'll help until you get better at playing the game.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    So you are saying you kick low gs pugs from skirmishes?

    If you (at 19k+ as you say) can't carry a dungeon or skirmish, you are the bad player, not the low gs guy. The low gs does what he can do with what he has. You expect him to carry you or something?

    Since we've established that you are the bad player in the party, you should just invite a GF with you, especially in esot. it'll help until you get better at playing the game.

    This. First day people had esot unlocked I saw a moderately geared CW 15kgs I think solo the boss in esot when the party got wiped out by the boss. It's not like skirmishes are all that hard.
  • hefisdohefisdo Member Posts: 709 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    Fun fact: after reading this thread, a friend of mine that I just brought to the game said that my set sucks because it gives Deflection and Regeneration for PvE.

    He was talking about the HV set. I hope you guys are satisfied.
    (´・ ω ・`)
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    bielka72 wrote: »
    Hypthetical scenario? No.. This happens and happened to me many many times. Wait... but you say perhaps you could like educate the guy..well you could..but it can't get better gear at the moment. So far easier to kick him.

    No, your team was just rude kicking him. The min requirement of 13k is satisfactory. If your team failed, it was because you all weren't good enough to handle the boss anyway. The fact that someone with higher gs could dps the difficulty away is irrelevant. That person has a real life too. You're treating others as disposable people as a means to reach your goal instead of equals. You wasted someone's time because you wanted it easy mode.
This discussion has been closed.