Really? So you are forming a party for an epic run, you're gonna jsut take a bunch of GF's?
I have played glass cannons in several MMO's. The idea is that you have a tank, some DPS, and a healer, not a bunch of glass cannons running around oneshotting a mob then getting killed. >_>
Hence, you'd have a CW with stats like:
DPS: 40k
HPS: 0
Def: 1k
And a GF would have a score like:
DPS:7k
HPS: 0
Def: 40k
Or does this still not make sense? In the above example, both would probably have an idental GS using the current method.
thats what a balanced party is for a "glass cannon " a healer a tank (a gwf or a tr for the single target ) and a sw or hr everyone has there roll
That is all fine and dandy until you notice people entering LVL 60 pvp matches with lvl 30-49 green gear on ruining it for everyone else because they seem to get this impression that it's an okay thing to do. Similar arrogance.
That isn't being a gear score snob, it's called common sense.
I can't stand gear score snobs nor can I stand people that won't listen to simple suggestions and get all offended if you tell them about how entering a lvl 60 pvp match with greens on and no enchants is a bad idea or get pissed when you tell them the bare minimum required to enter castle never is a bad idea. They always come out blaming everyone else for losing. I consider those dead weights. They also like to beg for stuff but not put forth any effort making gaming a draining experience while playing the victim. Then you have the 20k gear score club with that same type of attitude just in reverse where they talk down to people that don't have their gear score even if the person has beaten them in pvp 1 vs 1. Same snooty attitude from entitled arrogant types. It's the mindset that is annoying more than anything.
Then you have the people that have a high gear score and skill. Don't judge a book by it's cover but use common sense in the process because someone wearing all greens, no enchants at lvl 60 plus aurora's catalog should be questioned as there are also people that have bot toons for pvp and pve zones. Pick and choose your comrades
I agree. But that doesn't change the problem: people judge by the numbers. "No 100%+ crit severity? you're a horrible TR!"
I can see all that on an inspect anyway. Honestly over a certain GS that's what I am going to look at anyway because the raw points don't tell me if your build is any good or not. A lot of other things are not going to be knowable regardless. Like feat and paragon.
agreed but if i see a 1200 gs i know that player has done some work on there toon and has some idea how to play it
OH, but that is so wrong... I have a GF that I have no idea how to play yet. He has levelled up mostly through professions and praying. His GS is over 14k as I have been donating the tiamat gear I am finding when I play on my other classes
edit - ps. I will learn how to play him before I queue for dungeons, so don't you all go panicking!!
I voted replace GS with a more meaningful number. That stated, our guild (BloodGuard) could care less about GS than teamwork and doing your best to play your class in a way that helps the team (when doing team events). NW_Legit_Community is a fantastic group of people who feel similar in that GS is irrelevant if you are properly playing your class and working as a team (please note I don't represent the "community," I'm just glad to be a part of it).
Per the opening post, I've seen people wear specific gear only to have a given gear score rather than look at proper stat distribution as well as gear bonuses. I've seen players who have enough GS to get into a specific area loose because GS doesn't equate to skill or the appropriate stats to be in a given area.
How about instead of gs requirements the areas would be unlockables - high skill or gear requiring solo dungeons, maybe repeated once or twice to make for sure it didn't happen by a fluke. So if a person is in an area means that one way or another he managed to get trough the right of passage and deserves to be there.
W_Legit_Community is a fantastic group of people who feel similar in that GS is irrelevant if you are properly playing your class and working as a team
Legit is a perfectly good example of good players regardless of their GS. I honestly think the game should aim towards not making it about toon looks and apparent achievements, but rather aim for better player performance and unbiased opinion about low GS players. As a 25k GWF I'd take a 14k good dc over a lot of 20k+ players for a run. Just the way I see it.
Legit is a perfectly good example of good players regardless of their GS. I honestly think the game should aim towards not making it about toon looks and apparent achievements, but rather aim for better player performance and unbiased opinion about low GS players. As a 25k GWF I'd take a 14k good dc over a lot of 20k+ players for a run. Just the way I see it.
totaly agree with you but i dont want to take a 10k in to elol or tiamat
I'd actually like to see some kind of optional switch on/off metric that accounted for player history like successful dungeon runs, skirmishes, Tiamats, time in game, what-have-you and still allow player inspection of gear without showing the numbers but I suspect that would lead to another kind of snobbery and probably be difficult to implement.
At this point in the game we all have a good idea of what works and what doesn't and at least if you're looking at someone with what you might think is a non-optimized gear selection, if they have a history of accomplishments to back it up then it would stand to reason they're probably a capable player.
Now mind you, I don't really care about that stuff because sometimes you win and sometimes you lose and that's just part of the process. You reload, retool, learn and get better. Heard someone was asking for 18k for a Karru(!!!) run this morning and I couldn't help but snicker thinking of the many painful but successful crawls through that place prior to them nerfing the dungeon when my none of my toons' GS was anywhere close to that!
But these days we're all so overgeared for the content that the only occasional fail-groups I see are Tia runs and I'm hesitant to blame that on low GS in the group as opposed to lack of coordination.
I say just include weapon/amor enchantments in the GS count.
How do you calculate that? I mean a lot of enchants are more useful than others. And some do not much improve on upgrading. A lesser frost is a heck of a PVE effect compared to many other higher level enchants.
totaly agree with you but i dont want to take a 10k in to elol or tiamat
10k I agree. But 14 - 15k is more than ok and respectable. Take a cw for example. I would never gear mine over 18k tops. I see no need to. So she can dish what, 5 - 10m more damage in CN? if built correctly with proper mechanics, a lot of 16k cw's can easily out dps 20k+ ones. I mean, most people take cw's for the CC. even a 10k CW can perma CC, and if skilled enough to dodge and not get themselves killed, survive an entire run just fine.
GS doesnt take into account a lot of feats (while others add up, just to make this **** even more unfair), ioun stone stats, companion bonuses, weapon damage, most of the new stats (like ap rec, CA bonus), armor set bonuses buffs/debuffs and weapon and defense enchantments and their levels.
so yeah, gs is COMPLETELY useless
not even to talk thats not a fair way to measure player competence because that's obvious.
GS is completely off, I always get first or second on any dungeon and I always ran with at least 5k gs less than most people in the parties. since the begining of the time, people with 16k gs would get less than 60% of my damage while I had 11/12k gs
now I just destroy most of 20k+ gs players with my evolving 15/16/17k gs character.
10k I agree. But 14 - 15k is more than ok and respectable. Take a cw for example. I would never gear mine over 18k tops. I see no need to. So she can dish what, 5 - 10m more damage in CN? if built correctly with proper mechanics, a lot of 16k cw's can easily out dps 20k+ ones. I mean, most people take cw's for the CC. even a 10k CW can perma CC, and if skilled enough to dodge and not get themselves killed, survive an entire run just fine.
thank you totaly agree
i understand that there are some issues with the gs system but it is verry needed also we all know that a 12k gs is verry easy to get with just blues from ah as soon as you hit lv 60
Legit is a perfectly good example of good players regardless of their GS. I honestly think the game should aim towards not making it about toon looks and apparent achievements, but rather aim for better player performance and unbiased opinion about low GS players. As a 25k GWF I'd take a 14k good dc over a lot of 20k+ players for a run. Just the way I see it.
Agree with your sentiments. It's hard to judge unless you really know the person and since Tiamat forces you into accepting you may not get into a group of players you know, then people rely on first visual impressions. I found it funny that we ran Tiamat with alot of 15k gear scores with maybe 2 above that and they were saying...oh I don't think this will work out but we all won!
How do you calculate that? I mean a lot of enchants are more useful than others. And some do not much improve on upgrading. A lesser frost is a heck of a PVE effect compared to many other higher level enchants.
I dunno. 100 for lesser, 400 for perfect? The devs can figure it out. XD
But my point is that someone in even a lesser frostburn will out-perform someone with no enchantment.
Well, in terms of RP, a Lesser Armor/Weapon Enchantment is a Rank 7, a Normal is Rank 8, a Greater is Rank 9, and a Perfect is Rank 10. (Different rules for Plague Fire, of course) So in principle these could contribute to GS the same as an ordinary Rank 7/8/9/10 enchant. But that doesn't solve the problem. It wouldn't differentiate between a "smart" enchant and a "stupid" enchant.
sorry i miss read gs is fine the way it is it is needed
only people that want it to go are low gs people i worked hard to get where i am 18k gs cw
Every MMO pretty much needs one of these things, otherwise there's an endless flow of lazy leeches joining the party and not pulling their weight. So I agree with learch, the gs is fine as it is.
And even say this as someone with a very humble gear score on his characters. (my highest is at 13k or so)
I dunno. 100 for lesser, 400 for perfect? The devs can figure it out. XD
But my point is that someone in even a lesser frostburn will out-perform someone with no enchantment.
It'll just make the GS gap bigger between players. All best geared players run p.vorps (or perfect whatever). So I'll hit 25.4k (according to the system you suggested) while a 11k tr who's new to the game got lucky, saved enough for a lesser plague, and earned 100 gs.
I think sometimes people forget there are actual new people to the game. Of course I run my alts with full xvim, a p.vorp and sigils as artis. I get to do that, yeah, but new players can't obtain 1/3 of that even when they have a decent geared toon.
I can totally see new players quit because of unrealistic dreams and demands from the community and the understanding it's either their wallet or their eternal shame in tiamat in which they walk in only to get yelled at for being scrubs.
I wouldn't go as far as solo dungeons because that doesn't demonstrate your qualities as a team players.
.
That could lead to boosting by experienced players/selling boosts but considering the difference in Ad gain that will hardly happen, so unless someone starts using real money to do that that would probably work right now.
The moderators debated that too. However, that feature seems to be omnipresent in all MMORPGs.
Really?
Don't recall ever seeing a gear score when I played the following:
1. EQ 1
2. DAOC
3. City of Heroes
4. Guild Wars 1
Older games, for sure - but just because the newer games insist on adding this feature doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea.
Gear score is just a weak attempt by SOME mmorpg's to gauge how powerful a character is, with varying degrees of success.
Personally, if you're going to have gear, I'd prefer the system in GW1. Where the "tiers" are all about looks,
and all gear of your level have the same stats.
How about instead of gs requirements the areas would be unlockables - high skill or gear requiring solo dungeons, maybe repeated once or twice to make for sure it didn't happen by a fluke. So if a person is in an area means that one way or another he managed to get trough the right of passage and deserves to be there.
I love the idea of a right of passage. I know how satisfying it is when you can eventually solo some on the lairs in the various areas. You know you are getting it right at that point and can work your way towards it being the cake walk it turns into.
I find there is a lack of challenge on my main classes. Guild runs are great, and I wouldn't do without them, but as you get yourself geared up and balanced, things start to become too easy at times.
Really?
Don't recall ever seeing a gear score when I played the following:
1. EQ 1
2. DAOC
3. City of Heroes
4. Guild Wars 1
Older games, for sure - but just because the newer games insist on adding this feature doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea.
Gear score is just a weak attempt by SOME mmorpg's to gauge how powerful a character is, with varying degrees of success.
Personally, if you're going to have gear, I'd prefer the system in GW1. Where the "tiers" are all about looks,
and all gear of your level have the same stats.
I was referring to the ability to view gear, NOT gearscore. I also said "seems to be omnipresent", as every MMORPG I have played to date has the ability to at least view equipped gear.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I dunno. 100 for lesser, 400 for perfect? The devs can figure it out. XD
But my point is that someone in even a lesser frostburn will out-perform someone with no enchantment.
It is actually worse than that I used Frost for a reason. Someone with a lesser frost and one good AOE actually has more effect on mobs than someone with a PVorp and a low crit chance. At 25% crit a PVorp is a 25% chance at 50% more damage aggregate 12.5% damage for one player. Compare to a lesser Frost on say a GF who opens with ET and no mob can attack at all for 3 seconds gauranteed 100%. Hell I've actually considered replacing my PVorp with a lesser Frost in Tiamat. Someone else is gauranteed to provide the debuff in a group of 25 and the ability to 100% defend the clerics for 3 seconds every spawn is kinda OP.....
It'll just make the GS gap bigger between classes. All best geared players run p.vorps (or perfect whatever). So I'll hit 25.4k (according to the system you suggested) while a 11k tr who's new to the game got lucky, saved enough for a lesser plague, and earned 100 gs.
I think sometimes people forget there are actual new people to the game. Of course I run my alts with full xvim, a p.vorp and sigils as artis. I get to do that, yeah, but new players can't obtain 1/3 of that even when they have a decent geared toon.
I can totally see new players quit because of unrealistic dreams and demands from the community and the understanding it's either their wallet or their eternal shame in tiamat in which they walk in only to get yelled at for being scrubs.
The biggest reasons I've seen first hand why new players at least think about quitting are the following:
1. lvl 60 grind fest dailies. Takes too long and just keeps adding up. The prices are unreasonable to skip dread and Sharandar for just one toon.
2. It's become very hard to make AD. When people get to lvl 60, suddenly they realize they can't live up to other people's standards and sometimes they decide that they aren't going to put forth the effort to learn the game and take advice but rage quit instead. Not always the games fault or other people's "standards"
3. Getting kicked out of dungeons before being able to loot. Getting kicked from pvp matches.
4. Bad customer service equals to lower customer morale. Especially with people stealing private information. Lax customer reps equals lax attitude when something really bad happens. Gives the overall impression that only thing that is cared for is the bottom line. Money which turns off people.
There are some good people in this game. Some real gems that take care of people, give newbies advice and take time out of their busy grind to help. It's not always over players. It's unreasonable to put up a minimum gear score expecting new players to get that it should really be at least 4k more than what is suggested.
With Tiamat, I know for a fact that an all 10k gs group of new players is not feasible. Why not increase it to 14k? Why would there be a problem with having to gear up and learn the game first, get some boons to join like with Icewind Dale? Did anyone throw a fit over that?
People are acting like they should just zip right into Tiamat. I can understand if you aren't new and know how to spec but many new players are allowed to go in like that. It's not fair to them. They should have at least 3 boons to enter.
It makes no sense as to why there is that requirement for Icewind Dale but not Tiamat since Tiamat is harder than Icewind. It's not about gear score snobbery, it's about being reasonable and people with instant gratification problems aren't going to win in the long run so they can put forth some effort to do some of the other content to learn first but it isn't on players shoulders for that.
I've noticed a trend of putting making the game function as intended on the player's backs. Tiamat bottom line. You should have 3 boons. If you cry about it, not our problem you are too lazy.
I dont know about you guys but GS seems to work just fine for me. I currently have 3 different pieces pieces on my CW (Corrupted 1/4, Draconic 1/4 Dread 2/4) and my stats are higher than having a 2/4 set bonus from any other t2 set...
Comments
That isn't being a gear score snob, it's called common sense.
I can't stand gear score snobs nor can I stand people that won't listen to simple suggestions and get all offended if you tell them about how entering a lvl 60 pvp match with greens on and no enchants is a bad idea or get pissed when you tell them the bare minimum required to enter castle never is a bad idea. They always come out blaming everyone else for losing. I consider those dead weights. They also like to beg for stuff but not put forth any effort making gaming a draining experience while playing the victim. Then you have the 20k gear score club with that same type of attitude just in reverse where they talk down to people that don't have their gear score even if the person has beaten them in pvp 1 vs 1. Same snooty attitude from entitled arrogant types. It's the mindset that is annoying more than anything.
Then you have the people that have a high gear score and skill. Don't judge a book by it's cover but use common sense in the process because someone wearing all greens, no enchants at lvl 60 plus aurora's catalog should be questioned as there are also people that have bot toons for pvp and pve zones. Pick and choose your comrades
I can see all that on an inspect anyway. Honestly over a certain GS that's what I am going to look at anyway because the raw points don't tell me if your build is any good or not. A lot of other things are not going to be knowable regardless. Like feat and paragon.
OH, but that is so wrong... I have a GF that I have no idea how to play yet. He has levelled up mostly through professions and praying. His GS is over 14k as I have been donating the tiamat gear I am finding when I play on my other classes
edit - ps. I will learn how to play him before I queue for dungeons, so don't you all go panicking!!
Per the opening post, I've seen people wear specific gear only to have a given gear score rather than look at proper stat distribution as well as gear bonuses. I've seen players who have enough GS to get into a specific area loose because GS doesn't equate to skill or the appropriate stats to be in a given area.
So Perfect Vorpal and Perfect Bronzewood would count the same?
Legit is a perfectly good example of good players regardless of their GS. I honestly think the game should aim towards not making it about toon looks and apparent achievements, but rather aim for better player performance and unbiased opinion about low GS players. As a 25k GWF I'd take a 14k good dc over a lot of 20k+ players for a run. Just the way I see it.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
totaly agree with you but i dont want to take a 10k in to elol or tiamat
At this point in the game we all have a good idea of what works and what doesn't and at least if you're looking at someone with what you might think is a non-optimized gear selection, if they have a history of accomplishments to back it up then it would stand to reason they're probably a capable player.
Now mind you, I don't really care about that stuff because sometimes you win and sometimes you lose and that's just part of the process. You reload, retool, learn and get better. Heard someone was asking for 18k for a Karru(!!!) run this morning and I couldn't help but snicker thinking of the many painful but successful crawls through that place prior to them nerfing the dungeon when my none of my toons' GS was anywhere close to that!
But these days we're all so overgeared for the content that the only occasional fail-groups I see are Tia runs and I'm hesitant to blame that on low GS in the group as opposed to lack of coordination.
How do you calculate that? I mean a lot of enchants are more useful than others. And some do not much improve on upgrading. A lesser frost is a heck of a PVE effect compared to many other higher level enchants.
10k I agree. But 14 - 15k is more than ok and respectable. Take a cw for example. I would never gear mine over 18k tops. I see no need to. So she can dish what, 5 - 10m more damage in CN? if built correctly with proper mechanics, a lot of 16k cw's can easily out dps 20k+ ones. I mean, most people take cw's for the CC. even a 10k CW can perma CC, and if skilled enough to dodge and not get themselves killed, survive an entire run just fine.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
so yeah, gs is COMPLETELY useless
not even to talk thats not a fair way to measure player competence because that's obvious.
GS is completely off, I always get first or second on any dungeon and I always ran with at least 5k gs less than most people in the parties. since the begining of the time, people with 16k gs would get less than 60% of my damage while I had 11/12k gs
now I just destroy most of 20k+ gs players with my evolving 15/16/17k gs character.
i understand that there are some issues with the gs system but it is verry needed also we all know that a 12k gs is verry easy to get with just blues from ah as soon as you hit lv 60
Agree with your sentiments. It's hard to judge unless you really know the person and since Tiamat forces you into accepting you may not get into a group of players you know, then people rely on first visual impressions. I found it funny that we ran Tiamat with alot of 15k gear scores with maybe 2 above that and they were saying...oh I don't think this will work out but we all won!
please or make it usefull taking into account everything a player can add (weapon enchant, ion stone, companions bonus) or get rid of it.
also **** ****s sake make a tiered lvl 60 pvp based then on the new system.
I dunno. 100 for lesser, 400 for perfect? The devs can figure it out. XD
But my point is that someone in even a lesser frostburn will out-perform someone with no enchantment.
Every MMO pretty much needs one of these things, otherwise there's an endless flow of lazy leeches joining the party and not pulling their weight. So I agree with learch, the gs is fine as it is.
And even say this as someone with a very humble gear score on his characters. (my highest is at 13k or so)
It'll just make the GS gap bigger between players. All best geared players run p.vorps (or perfect whatever). So I'll hit 25.4k (according to the system you suggested) while a 11k tr who's new to the game got lucky, saved enough for a lesser plague, and earned 100 gs.
I think sometimes people forget there are actual new people to the game. Of course I run my alts with full xvim, a p.vorp and sigils as artis. I get to do that, yeah, but new players can't obtain 1/3 of that even when they have a decent geared toon.
I can totally see new players quit because of unrealistic dreams and demands from the community and the understanding it's either their wallet or their eternal shame in tiamat in which they walk in only to get yelled at for being scrubs.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
That could lead to boosting by experienced players/selling boosts but considering the difference in Ad gain that will hardly happen, so unless someone starts using real money to do that that would probably work right now.
Really?
Don't recall ever seeing a gear score when I played the following:
1. EQ 1
2. DAOC
3. City of Heroes
4. Guild Wars 1
Older games, for sure - but just because the newer games insist on adding this feature doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea.
Gear score is just a weak attempt by SOME mmorpg's to gauge how powerful a character is, with varying degrees of success.
Personally, if you're going to have gear, I'd prefer the system in GW1. Where the "tiers" are all about looks,
and all gear of your level have the same stats.
I love the idea of a right of passage. I know how satisfying it is when you can eventually solo some on the lairs in the various areas. You know you are getting it right at that point and can work your way towards it being the cake walk it turns into.
I find there is a lack of challenge on my main classes. Guild runs are great, and I wouldn't do without them, but as you get yourself geared up and balanced, things start to become too easy at times.
I was referring to the ability to view gear, NOT gearscore. I also said "seems to be omnipresent", as every MMORPG I have played to date has the ability to at least view equipped gear.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
It is actually worse than that I used Frost for a reason. Someone with a lesser frost and one good AOE actually has more effect on mobs than someone with a PVorp and a low crit chance. At 25% crit a PVorp is a 25% chance at 50% more damage aggregate 12.5% damage for one player. Compare to a lesser Frost on say a GF who opens with ET and no mob can attack at all for 3 seconds gauranteed 100%. Hell I've actually considered replacing my PVorp with a lesser Frost in Tiamat. Someone else is gauranteed to provide the debuff in a group of 25 and the ability to 100% defend the clerics for 3 seconds every spawn is kinda OP.....
The biggest reasons I've seen first hand why new players at least think about quitting are the following:
1. lvl 60 grind fest dailies. Takes too long and just keeps adding up. The prices are unreasonable to skip dread and Sharandar for just one toon.
2. It's become very hard to make AD. When people get to lvl 60, suddenly they realize they can't live up to other people's standards and sometimes they decide that they aren't going to put forth the effort to learn the game and take advice but rage quit instead. Not always the games fault or other people's "standards"
3. Getting kicked out of dungeons before being able to loot. Getting kicked from pvp matches.
4. Bad customer service equals to lower customer morale. Especially with people stealing private information. Lax customer reps equals lax attitude when something really bad happens. Gives the overall impression that only thing that is cared for is the bottom line. Money which turns off people.
There are some good people in this game. Some real gems that take care of people, give newbies advice and take time out of their busy grind to help. It's not always over players. It's unreasonable to put up a minimum gear score expecting new players to get that it should really be at least 4k more than what is suggested.
With Tiamat, I know for a fact that an all 10k gs group of new players is not feasible. Why not increase it to 14k? Why would there be a problem with having to gear up and learn the game first, get some boons to join like with Icewind Dale? Did anyone throw a fit over that?
People are acting like they should just zip right into Tiamat. I can understand if you aren't new and know how to spec but many new players are allowed to go in like that. It's not fair to them. They should have at least 3 boons to enter.
It makes no sense as to why there is that requirement for Icewind Dale but not Tiamat since Tiamat is harder than Icewind. It's not about gear score snobbery, it's about being reasonable and people with instant gratification problems aren't going to win in the long run so they can put forth some effort to do some of the other content to learn first but it isn't on players shoulders for that.
I've noticed a trend of putting making the game function as intended on the player's backs. Tiamat bottom line. You should have 3 boons. If you cry about it, not our problem you are too lazy.