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Probable TR Stealth upcoming changes: discuss (in a civil way please)
pando83
Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
Here'smthe post (can see in devs tracker too):
So, this is what the devs are trying to do to solve the stealth issue.
From my point of view, the change looks good. I'll explain why:
Current TR has strong DPS. We know it. Damage is there. Be it burst damage or DoT damage, TRs now are more than capable to take down opponents fast as they are supposed to do as a DPS class. Here, one example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrmke1LDTGE
Tank Sentinel taken down, quite fast i'd say.
Here we also see how the TR is pretty much out of reach 99% of the time the fight lasts. Could've been easily 100% if the TR decided to kite going off node.
Now to the changes. From my point of view, and from what we see in that video, here's what happens now: TR decides when to attack, when to disengage, when to be seen and when to come back to attack. So you have either DPS from stealth (SoD) which is not a burst but still consistent and delivered from stealth, or burst-->roll back to stealth-->roll "spam"+ high mobility to be out of reach in an instant. If the TR plays it right, you've no room to fight back in a 1v1 scenario. Mobility to kite even GWF sprint and stealth pretty much all the time.
With changes: the TR hits from stealth and engage as they please like now. But they can't then just spam rolls and get back to stealth right away, getting out of reach in a fraction of a second and then using superior mobility and remaining rolls to pretty much never get caught. Must time his burst and then he is visible for 2 seconds. 2 seconds is ok for me for a simple reason: TRs have rolls, long rolls, and plenty of them.
But now, the enemy can see them (they don't rush in stealth right away) and can time his attacks. The TR can dodge, the enemy can target them and try to catch them.
TR rolls can pretty much cover the whole 2 seconds if you just spam them. But if you do that, then you must kite from stealth without rolls. Much more fair than a super-fast TR who can also spam rolls from stealth whenever the enemy gets close.
In those 2 seconds, i can hit you, you can dodge. If you dodge all the time, then when you get back to stealth i know you can't dodge roll miles away and it's easier to try and follow your movements. If i can catch you in these 2 seconds, i deal damage. If i can't, you get back to stealth and safe.
Also, no more damage from stealth. Which is good. So now TRs have to actually use a bit of brain and learn to actively dodge the enemy attacks, where till now they only executed their rotation and, if they did it well, there was pretty much no room for counterattack. Now it's 2 seconds of counterattack where they must dodge actively.
So you know you can deal monster damage with burst or apply DoTs, but attacking also has a risk.
Here is introduced the risk that TRs didn't have before.
There will be drama and panic cause TRs got used for over 1 year to be pretty much all the time stealthed. From my point of view, it's just that now they will not be special anymore but will have, like other classes, that window of vulnerability during which they are targeted and must dodge/ defend. Which was missed due to excess of stealth.
Dodge rolls and other tools such as ITC, dazes exc... all combined are plenty enough from my point of view to defend yourself during these 2 seconds. Difference is, now the enemy actually has a chance to target you and it's not a 1-sided fight anymore.
What do you think? Is it good or bad, balanced or not? And why? How would you solve the issue?
To provide a little more context, we are generally happy with where rogues are currently falling in most cases, but we didn't see the increase in counterplay that we initially wanted from the changes to stealth and at wills in Module 5, partially because we decided we also wanted mid range rogues to be a much more viable build. Given the way players can currently interact with stealth (with enemies in melee range being revealed), this meant that making ranged rogues more viable had a negative impact on how players could interact with permastealth. However, our goal was not to eliminate stealth as an option that could be maintained, but make it more difficult to oppress an enemy without them fighting back. Given that we are investigating a couple options, but the one that I hope will be out and ready for testing sometime this week is as follows.
When you strike a player while stealthed they will be able to see you for 2 seconds. You are revealed only to the player you struck. Damage over time effects will only trigger this reveal on initial damage application at this time.
This still allows rogues to try and pick targets effectively, but once you have been targeted by a rogue you will have access to far more options than you did before (i.e. you can target them). As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well. Stealth damage bonuses and critical bonuses will still apply against targets who can see the rogue.
Your primary goal as a rogue in PVP who utilizes stealth fully will become something more of a "heat seeking missile" picking high priority targets to engage with in a forced 1 on 1 situation.
This change is in testing and is *NOT FINAL* as of this time. We are experimenting with several options based on our technical limitations with how stealth works and what will feel good to players without removing all the skill and playstyle surrounding stealth.
So, this is what the devs are trying to do to solve the stealth issue.
From my point of view, the change looks good. I'll explain why:
Current TR has strong DPS. We know it. Damage is there. Be it burst damage or DoT damage, TRs now are more than capable to take down opponents fast as they are supposed to do as a DPS class. Here, one example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrmke1LDTGE
Tank Sentinel taken down, quite fast i'd say.
Here we also see how the TR is pretty much out of reach 99% of the time the fight lasts. Could've been easily 100% if the TR decided to kite going off node.
Now to the changes. From my point of view, and from what we see in that video, here's what happens now: TR decides when to attack, when to disengage, when to be seen and when to come back to attack. So you have either DPS from stealth (SoD) which is not a burst but still consistent and delivered from stealth, or burst-->roll back to stealth-->roll "spam"+ high mobility to be out of reach in an instant. If the TR plays it right, you've no room to fight back in a 1v1 scenario. Mobility to kite even GWF sprint and stealth pretty much all the time.
With changes: the TR hits from stealth and engage as they please like now. But they can't then just spam rolls and get back to stealth right away, getting out of reach in a fraction of a second and then using superior mobility and remaining rolls to pretty much never get caught. Must time his burst and then he is visible for 2 seconds. 2 seconds is ok for me for a simple reason: TRs have rolls, long rolls, and plenty of them.
But now, the enemy can see them (they don't rush in stealth right away) and can time his attacks. The TR can dodge, the enemy can target them and try to catch them.
TR rolls can pretty much cover the whole 2 seconds if you just spam them. But if you do that, then you must kite from stealth without rolls. Much more fair than a super-fast TR who can also spam rolls from stealth whenever the enemy gets close.
In those 2 seconds, i can hit you, you can dodge. If you dodge all the time, then when you get back to stealth i know you can't dodge roll miles away and it's easier to try and follow your movements. If i can catch you in these 2 seconds, i deal damage. If i can't, you get back to stealth and safe.
Also, no more damage from stealth. Which is good. So now TRs have to actually use a bit of brain and learn to actively dodge the enemy attacks, where till now they only executed their rotation and, if they did it well, there was pretty much no room for counterattack. Now it's 2 seconds of counterattack where they must dodge actively.
So you know you can deal monster damage with burst or apply DoTs, but attacking also has a risk.
Here is introduced the risk that TRs didn't have before.
There will be drama and panic cause TRs got used for over 1 year to be pretty much all the time stealthed. From my point of view, it's just that now they will not be special anymore but will have, like other classes, that window of vulnerability during which they are targeted and must dodge/ defend. Which was missed due to excess of stealth.
Dodge rolls and other tools such as ITC, dazes exc... all combined are plenty enough from my point of view to defend yourself during these 2 seconds. Difference is, now the enemy actually has a chance to target you and it's not a 1-sided fight anymore.
What do you think? Is it good or bad, balanced or not? And why? How would you solve the issue?
Post edited by pando83 on
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Comments
This apply to at will too, you dagger with stealth depletion and visible basically meanz suicide. Two daggers are auto ko.
But who care i knew it. No money wasted
oh and let me add another thing:
you will be HARD TARGET LOCKed even more
this is the death for the stealth.
i dont even want to talk about the sure strange interaction of this mechanic with dot enchantments.
i m happy with damage, it s alright but in all other aspect the tr class is always "can't have it all" because of stealth.
to the destruction of the stealth mechanism MUST follow a destruction of all funny aspect of the TR class. First of these: the ridicolous needs of 30% cooldowns reduction to have cooldowns under 15 sec.
i already can imagine a tr vs hr fight:
stealth, throw a dagger, get hit by carefull attack, GG no stealth 20 ticks you dead.
ideas to minimize the issue:
1) visible frames down to 1 sec.
2) no more stealth depletion on at will., i m visible after all now right?
3) strong reduction of cooldown as compensation. i cant relying on 24 seconds lashing blade, 15 seconds shadow strike and 20 seconds ITC.
you want TR to be conterplayed? alright but dont force TR to counterplay their own class.
for now i m quite sure we will be back to see a whole class running circles.
add some timer that prevents re-stealthing while in combat/certain time after attacking with exception of some encounters
it would still make it easy to get close enough to target but allow target to react and evade attack
+ they could make a tree that focuses more on stealth(reducing detection radius, improve re-stealthing) while other trees could focus on other staff, maybe make a tree that is more of a brawler that relies to stealth just as gap closer not during combat
I would be ok with this as well.
The problem with this is that it doesn't only counter perma stealth, but stealth as a whole, even for those of us who only use it for a few attack boost/utility. in 1vs1 it means that basically you're out of stealth all the time unless you're not attacking which of course won't get you a victory.
It will make it much harder to lay on smoke bomb + path of the blades, then run around people, because the victims will see them.
I dont personally forsee any problems, although i will try to test it (but found testing pvp stuff difficult pre-mod 5)
If you can't do that already, then simply you suck. *shrug*
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Your speaking as if other classes don't have massive damage, don't have numerous CCs, don't have repeated dodges, and don't use deflect. The only thing the TR had as an absolute advantage is invisibility, so they are now gonna limit it. The only thing you're doing right now with comments like these is basically "setting up for the next whine", in case you can't defeat TRs even AFTER the changes hit. LOL.
"Ah, I knew the changes weren't enough, I already told you X, Y, Z all had to be nerfed. These changes are nothing but a sham. You need to nerf all of the above as well"
ROOOOOFL.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The devs would need to be a little bit careful with stuff like "the teeney amounts of damage we don't really care about, and usually fall unaware", like boons. It would absolutely suck when certain unexpected circumstances proc a damage of "34", and then that suddenly causes a 2-sec disclosure as you were about to start an attack.
They need to limit it to a result of a DIRECT ACTIVATED attack.
(ps) SAME CHANGES REQUIRED FOR HR STEALTH AS WELL, PLEASE.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
with 2 dc healing him 15 sec until skull crack is ready
You can't even have an optimistic view in accepting a nerf without people trying to trash what you say. Unbelievable...
Either way I think it is safe to say by anyone who has played a TR at a higher level that your opinion is flat out wrong though, so I am not concerned. Any other class is much less reliant on movement/positioning and is much more forgiving of mistakes. There is hardly has any room for skill to enter the picture when left out in the open without significant control over any situation. TR survival capability is directly related to how well you can perform with it when facing opponents that know how to fight a TR.
Why bother though, you probably play a GWF and think it takes a lot of skill...heh
Did you manage to forget that in my original post I am supporting this TR nerf?
I never complained. Roar was easy enough to immune out of if you timed a dodge right. Prones were no matter if you moved well enough. I liked the old dazing shot too when it helped give HRs an advantage. Either way, I liked rogue better last mod when it didn't have the damage and was more difficult to handle others. Your unjustified hate and stereotyping is blinding you. I don't just want to win or for it to be easy. I want to earn wins & maximize my potential by out-playing others on opposing teams as well as outperforming others who play my class. It doesn't prove anything if I abuse overpowered mechanics to win. I don't need or want an easy class that most people can do well with. This is why I switched back to TR from my HR soon after the release of the new HR paragon path. The new paragon path was OP and very much skill-less in comparison (& unfortunately the old path couldn't compete).
..."Lolololol"
*facepalm*
Hard to approach and lay smoke bomb? You need to read carefuly dev tracker.. LOL
in my opinion with this change it think it's solve stealth mekanic thing
if this going live then i will let go 75% deflec sev damage reduce but with 20% tenacity TR can become imune when deflec this is still problem
100 % crit change will still make TR 1 rotate kill build
but i am glad that this going in the right direction
...and you need to learn to read in the first place, before you LoL others.
What do you think is going to happen when someone runs around in PotB?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
What do you mean PoTB?
TR still can aproach and choose their target the change make the target TR choose to fight back
so what's your point?
Uhh do you understand the changes? If you drop smoke bomb or path of the blade everyone on the area will see you. In fact as loth is not a dot it will give you away whenever it pulsed.
...except that with the proposed changes, it will also allow struck targets to see every other TR as well. One TR running in and using Path Of The Blade would essentially give every struck target True Sight against every other rogue, regardless of their distance or what they were doing.
You need to read again dev track it's not affect by DoT
In smokebomb we can see you but in stun mode so what's the prob?
Oh i see you mean aoe skill, then don't use it on pvp, it's for pve i hardly meet TR use it in PVP nowdays
Remains to be seen.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The point is, this is a direct nerf against the stealth mechanic.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against GF block.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against DC heal.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against CW cc.
These things make the class. Nearly every class is a DPS, the thing that sets them apart is their unique mechanic. Nerfing a unique mechanic isn't balance, it defeats the point of the class itself. Having sight against an invisible target isn't balance, it's just the shadow of balance in front of a direct nerf. Why do you think TR gravitated towards permastealth in the first place?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
I am ok with nerf all class mekanic but TR need to give away their 100% crit change and have cooldown on stealth
but believe me your nonsense suggest is just not gonna happen
I have no idea why this is being directed towards me at all.
You do realise that I was saying the change was a bad thing? Right?
Remember in Mod....any mod before now when TR only had 2 stealth refills and staying in stealth 100% was a day-dream?
Remember when you were crying for a stealth CD then? Neither do I.
Stealth has a cooldown. It's called refilling the stealth meter. Same way block, heal, and cc all have a cooldown.
What's more of a threat? The TR running around in ITC with ridiculous damage or the guy throwing daggers in stealth from 20m off?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
ok let's disscus about tab mekanic
first you mistaken refilling stealth meter as cooldown, this refilling stealth meter mekanic is duration effect stealth that i think is cheese too
cooldown is range time when you can use skill after u used it, so it's no spawnable just like when you use encounter skill, non cooldown skill is like atwill skill
TR can freely in and out stealth mode as spawnable skill
let's compare tab mekanic with other class, for example
GWF = before GWF can aktif unstopable they need to take hit first and the bar draining if not use, have limited short time, it can be counter even can be killed when in unstopble condition
GF = can be countered just need to slip behind them
HR = every power skill have limitation if you range type then your melee stance will be buff or non damage skill and if you melee type your range stance will be buff or non damage skill, if both skill are damage skill then there nothing spesial in both stance
you can't compare other class mekanic that have limitation, that why i think this limitation that dev think about need to be implement well i even think 3-4s is ok, if you hit you need to show your face
the first attack will be owened by TR with their ambush, TR stealth mekanic can't be countered because you don't know where and when TR will come, even the damage come you still cannot see TR to countered him, i think this change is important so other class can countered TR at least when they attaked us
don't forget about 100% crit change and almost imune when deflec
I do agree that if it is 2 seconds, stealth depletion should go/ get reworked.
What i suppose should happen is that the TR attacks from stealth either dealing huge initial damage or applying DoT, is visible for 2 seconds and must defend/ dodge, which is possible, then goes back to stealth.
1 second means you attack, roll away and then you are back to stealth, basically. Which would be the same as now.
I don't play TR (have a low level alt on another account but just started it for fun, don't have time to play it), but pretty much all the PvP TRs i meet are visible for like 0.2 seconds or not visible at all while dealing huge DPS as either spike damage or DoT.
What should happen is you attack from stealth, if i know you're there i try to anticipate your rotation and dodge it. Then you are visible for 2 seconds and it's your turn to run, my turn to attack.
There are options to defend yourself like the shadow clones, dazes, ITC, dodge rolls exc...during those 2 seconds.
I think the idea behind the changes is good. As crush said, it's not final, need to test it when it goes live, then see how stuff can be combined to create a balanced scenario where other classes have their turn to target the TR and attack.
Cause right now it's pretty much a one-sided fight where the TR dictates the pace and the enemy must try to grab a perhaps 0.2s chance to catch the TR. PvP TRs can also usually stand a rotation now.
If then to balance TRs need more DR or more HPs it could be done. But what must go is the absolute defense we see now, where pretty much the TR is always either in stealth out of reach, or rolling in immunity, or in ITC immunity, or you are dazed.
Talking about full potential.
Should be hit-run tactics but while now it's super easy to run back into stealth leaving no room for counter attacks, in the future it should require also more proactive play to dodge attacks from enemies who can actually target you, and make it a real battle. Like every class, once you land your rotation (from stealth in your case) you are actually open to counterattacks.
I'd say 2 seconds after dealing damage, but no stealth depletion upon attacking. Would be probably too much.
But 2 seconds to counter attack are much better than a tiny 0.2 seconds during which you might barely see the TR zooming near you while in stealth and the rolling away somewhere.