2v1ing a tr means that your other team mates might be out numbered. if every class don't have a 50/50 % of winning then that is not balance that is not ok. only trs and some dc's can fight a rogue.
Domination isn't 1vs1. Get your concepts straight first before arguing 'balance'.
I never said you need two people to kill a single Scoundrel. I've simply mentioned that Scoundrels are ill equipped to be holding nodes alone, since they aren't built for multi-target engagements like the Sabs/permas are. Besides, if you're having trouble with the TR back-capping the home node, then in all likelihood your TR is doing the same, and basically the fights pretty much simply decided on who holds the mid-node.
Besides, I've seen plenty of other classes beat TRs in preview. By the time the first week of preview was over the smarter bunch of players were already adapting their tactics to the new TRs. The only reason why it feels like TRs are overboard in PvP, is simply because most people are PuG level, average-grade players ill-equipped and thoroughly unprepared, and much less experienced.
When you walk into domination with something like 12k GS with 25k HP, you're simply offering yourself as free kills.
What people should do, is do what they can to better their odds first, and THEN come frickin' complain when it still doesn't work. But of course, people don't really do that, do they. They don't theorycraft. They don't respec. They don't get better gear, and they don't even get much practice with guildies. But one thing they do, despite of all that, is complain.
Figures, don't it. :rolleyes:
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
No one missed your "point", it's just that you didn't have one, since CWs don't have strong control -- if you want control effects that actually last for a bit, other classes are better controllers than CWs in PvP. I'd be fine with giving CWs an invisibility spell and a couple of additional dodges, though. Since that was your point. :rolleyes:
i would agree with you if i didn't control a rogue in stealth til they died on my wizard. not my fault you didn't pick oppressor or don't use your control encounters.
but the main thing about a wizard's control is the fact that its aoe and can be maintained easier than other classes.
The only class that can even remotely fight back against a scoundrel is a GWF. Shjt has even more CC than a god dam CONTROL wizard. And I don't even main that pussy class.
dunno. i have had half my hp bar ripped out just because a wizard pointed his frost ray at me for a few seconds for a double proc that bypassed all my mitigation. chased after him since i know i can't survive another few seconds of it and the warlock i was attacking finished me off with killing flames while i was distracted.
i don't even want to know how quick i would die to 2 wizards with those procs.....
1 vs 1 we aren't easy to beat but this isn't a 1 vs 1 game. almost every fight in pvp is gonna have more than 2 people except at home nodes usually.
Domination isn't 1vs1. Get your concepts straight first before arguing 'balance'.
I never said you need two people to kill a single Scoundrel. I've simply mentioned that Scoundrels are ill equipped to be holding nodes alone, since they aren't built for multi-target engagements like the Sabs/permas are. Besides, if you're having trouble with the TR back-capping the home node, then in all likelihood your TR is doing the same, and basically the fights pretty much simply decided on who holds the mid-node.
Besides, I've seen plenty of other classes beat TRs in preview. By the time the first week of preview was over the smarter bunch of players were already adapting their tactics to the new TRs. The only reason why it feels like TRs are overboard in PvP, is simply because most people are PuG level, average-grade players ill-equipped and thoroughly unprepared, and much less experienced.
When you walk into domination with something like 12k GS with 25k HP, you're simply offering yourself as free kills.
What people should do, is do what they can to better their odds first, and THEN come frickin' complain when it still doesn't work. But of course, people don't really do that, do they. They don't theorycraft. They don't respec. They don't get better gear, and they don't even get much practice with guildies. But one thing they do, despite of all that, is complain.
Figures, don't it. :rolleyes:
yes dom isnt always about 1v1s but sometimes it comes to a 1v1 and beating that person and clearing that node. only other trs can kill trs that a geared enough, and only dc's can hold them for a long time. you said it isn't about 1v1 and you are somewhat correct, but like i said 2v1ing a tr can most of the time prove harmful on the other nodes. In premades most trs fight alone and want to get 2v1'ed.
yes dom isnt always about 1v1s but sometimes it comes to a 1v1 and beating that person and clearing that node. only other trs can kill trs that a geared enough, and only dc's can hold them for a long time. you said it isn't about 1v1 and you are somewhat correct, but like i said 2v1ing a tr can most of the time prove harmful on the other nodes. In premades most trs fight alone and want to get 2v1'ed.
Again:
1. when an enemy TR goes to back-cap, so does yours. If it is difficult for your team to 1vs1 a TR for domination, then its the same for the other team as well. Hence, under that scenario the fight for domination is decided at node 2 at the middle.
2. If both teams send 1 or 2 people to clear backcap, then Scoundrels are the least of your worries, and Sabs are much more trickier and dangerous types of TRs to face alone.
In either case above, none of what makes a Scoundrel is of any real, deciding factor in Domination PvP format. Other builds are much more dangerous and influential. When it comes to a "1vs1 del without Domination PvP constraints" then the Scoundrel is freed from the 'leash', but then again so are other classes, and with a plenty of time and tactful moves -- also repeating myself again -- I've seen how other classes beat Scoundrels. GWFs and HRs have it around probably 50:50, GFs can be anything between 4:6 disadvantage to 5:5 equal, CWs and SWs have the worst of it and in my experience, a 4:6 or 3:7 in favor of the TR -- but still possible. DCs are difficult for any TR, and in TR vs TR it comes down to pure skill.
So in current "PVP", as in domination, the Scoundrels are of no special importance. Only the Sabs are the real game breakers. In "1vs1" duels, Scoundrels are tough opponents but still can be beaten, as I've seen some really good CWs and SWs do it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So now you're switching from your initial stance, which was that CWs "can cc spam anyone but GWFs" to argue that CWs get AoE cc (which they would *only* use in PvP against a stealthed TR, and it's fairly inconvenient to switch that loadout around, especially as it renders the CW extremely vulnerable to non-TRs), that it's somehow easier to maintain and that CWs should spec oppressor to get useful cc.
Basically, you just keep trying to shift around the fact that you compared scoundrels to CWs, but conveniently forgot about a few elements in your myopic argumentation, like looking at the whole of cc/damage/survivability tools.
huh? my loadout is useful against all classes and the aoe is essential for it even in pvp. i can understand icy terrain since that is now useless in pvp, but steal time + furious immolation has saved me a lot.
being able to daze a rogue for 4 sec (and everyone else in that huge aoe daily radius) in stealth b4 he even pulls off his 1-shot on me, stunning a rogue + gwf (who love to charge me 1st) for a couple seconds so i can focus on a single person for a bit, or disabling my shield to block an incoming lashing blade or force a gwf away from me for a bit. add in the other cc encounters and i can pretty much hold anyone i want as long as it's not a gwf.
i don't really die from rogues by themselves even though i am at 10k for now. bigger issue is that i am a juicy steak in the middle of a pack of wolves which is why i like my aoe cc.
i could argue about how the devs chose to make every feat path extremely different for each class, but that would require an essay.
Which is funny because my Scoundrel build is designed to specifically kill CWs and handle HRs. I'll engage the meat-sticks, of course, but they aren't typically my priority.
Whenever I go against a great CW they don't ***** ONE LITTLE BIT. They fight and they have the answers to my build. I simply don't make it easy on them. I wish more of them were vocal on these boards because the amount of crying from CWs is just pathetic. Know your own class and it's counter abilities. If you go glass cannon CW on me you will get kills on me over the course of a match but I will make your life miserable. If you are built for PvP, then we'll have some real fun together.
Hear, hear.
In turn, what pisses ME off, is the fact that most of the complaints in the boards don't have even the slightest signs of sincere practice, study, or theorycrafting in them. It's just a vague, generalized view of negativity based on their vague, generalized way of fighting.
I dunno. Maybe its the fundamental difference of TR-based players and others, but one thing I do know is during the last 2 mods TRs were always accepting the fact they couldn't do everything. Mod2 was the last of the "Golden Ages" and the semi-permas ruled the game along with the god-mode GWFs, but starting from mod3 the rise of HRs and CWs have put us into a circumstance where you'd be standing right next to the CW or HR and they'd simply laugh in your face while you attack them, and then casually CC you and either blow you to smithereens or DoT you to death (with of course, a swipe of Fox's Shift that knocks more than half your HP out).
Since then for TRs it has always been about selection and focus. Either you're built against these classes and weak against those, or vice versa. You can't have everything. Since mod4, every other class was a difficult target for the TR, the GWF with the bullshi* crazy Roar of doom(which soon changed to Intimidate of doom), the CW with the crazy nuke damage that deletes your presence within seconds, the HR that comes back to full life within seconds while draining yours crazy fast, or the GF that you can't scratch, or the DC that doesn't die.
So which one do you build for? Which are the ones you have no chance of beating? Selection and Focus.
Now, after mod5, TRs aren't the ones you simply ignore anymore. If you play bad, they kill you as fast as any GWF or CW or HR can kill you. The TRs have become so weak since mod2, that at the prime of mod4 people didn't even move around much on the node. HRs would just walk back and forth and expect you to come and attack, so they can just heal up all the damage and then land the gawdawful amount of DoTs on the TRs. CWs the same. Just wait until the TR comes to you. The CoS flings don't even hurt anyway. Just endure the DF with shield and HP, and then land DoTs. Woopee-too. Such a challenge.
Now that that has been changed, how much did they change? Are they trying different powers? Are they trying different tactics?
Nope. From the lowest PuGs, to the higher GS and experienced people, they're all the same. No difference in tactics. No difference in gear. No focus. No practice, no knowledge, just the same bland 'old standard' of fighting TRs. And then they die. And then they complain.
...
Here's a tip for the complainers.
Due to how the powers have been changed, the relative difficulty of facing a TR is greatly exaggerated the lower your performance.
A 18~20k level CW with 40k HP, Barkshield enchant and Shield on TAB, can actually mitigate at least half of Disheartening Strike damage from my 18k TR which would be around 25k damage but mitigated down to 11k on a 40k toon.
However, when you're a 11k CW fighting a 11k TR, you probably don't even have Barkshield enchantment, your HP is probably like 22k, and you'd probably be able to mitigate maybe 25~30% at most when a 11k TR throws you a DHS which will hit for about 17k. That's 12k damage on a 22k toon.
Get your gears going, and if you want to survive TRs then get it PvP worthy. You're not gonna be able to fight a TR when you're a 17k GS PvE setup with a horde of enchants invested into power but has pathetic 23k HP. TRs are naturally less effected by PvE setups because the bulk of its defense relies on stealth, so even PvE setups can have a certain impact. But other classes are different. You can't have it both ways. You can't be set for PvE and be prepared well enough to have a chance in PvP at the same time.
At least have the decency to try and prepare for something if you want to beat it. Jesus Christ. :rolleyes:
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Mod5 Sab's the most broken OP stuff since very early days of the TRs.
A WK/Sab/perma for that matter, is the most powerful OP perma build in the history of NW.
It's a problem in Disheartening Strike and not in the tree. You can build whatever and as long as you can perma throw DS, you'll see no difference in being scoundrel, saboteur or executioner whatsoever.
It's a whole different story.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
It's a problem in Disheartening Strike and not in the tree. You can build whatever and as long as you can perma throw DS, you'll see no difference in being scoundrel, saboteur or executioner whatsoever.
It's a whole different story.
Wasn't so OP when it lasted for only 6 ticks over 5 seconds.
And yes, it IS in the tree. The fundamental truth behind the WK/Sab is that it's a build that 'slips through a crack'.
Sab disregards the consequences of stealth depletion by its very nature, by giving 3 stealth-refillers that can be cycled through perfectly
DHS disregards the consequences of stealth depletion by racking up average 17~20k damage with just 1 attackt(= -15%) than 3~4 attacks from other at-wills(= -45 ~ -60%)
Not only that, but Sab is also sick in PvE. I've discovered the method to deal insane damage through hitting stealthed DF with EVERY DF attack, which racks up Shadowy Opportunity-assisted DF flurry damage that makes you want to vomit...
Sab's got issues, man.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's a problem in Disheartening Strike and not in the tree. You can build whatever and as long as you can perma throw DS, you'll see no difference in being scoundrel, saboteur or executioner whatsoever.
It's a whole different story.
DHS damage is significantly boosted for Sab due to Shadowy Opportunity procs and extended stealth duration. The fact that you are unaware of this pretty much invalidates any of your comments on TR. Explains a great deal though.
For the other trees, DHS damage is exactly the same as Mod 4. It's just spread over a longer duration. Nobody complained about DHS being OP in Mod 4. Guess what's different in Mod 5?
Not only that, but Sab is also sick in PvE. I've discovered the method to deal insane damage through hitting stealthed DF with EVERY DF attack, which racks up Shadowy Opportunity-assisted DF flurry damage that makes you want to vomit...
Sab's got issues, man.
Yup. I tested Sab extensively on Preview and just obliterated IWD HEs with no risk whatsoever. Nothing could touch me and everything died in seconds. But apparently there's nothing wrong with it. :rolleyes:
All this says to me is that you have no clue about TRs or how to fight them. You complain about Stealth being the ultimate defence and then say that the tree with almost no stealth has no weakness, while preferring the tree that never leaves stealth. You are either very confused or deliberately trolling
'
I know exactly how to fight them bring 4 others to a node and make them run away in hide, you loose the game every time but at least he only get to kill 2 before he has to run away. Well that is unless he is wk sab then he kills all 5 while talking in the phone and pron surfing at the same time.....
In turn, what pisses ME off, is the fact that most of the complaints in the boards don't have even the slightest signs of sincere practice, study, or theorycrafting in them. It's just a vague, generalized view of negativity based on their vague, generalized way of fighting.
I dunno. Maybe its the fundamental difference of TR-based players and others, but one thing I do know is during the last 2 mods TRs were always accepting the fact they couldn't do everything. Mod2 was the last of the "Golden Ages" and the semi-permas ruled the game along with the god-mode GWFs, but starting from mod3 the rise of HRs and CWs have put us into a circumstance where you'd be standing right next to the CW or HR and they'd simply laugh in your face while you attack them, and then casually CC you and either blow you to smithereens or DoT you to death (with of course, a swipe of Fox's Shift that knocks more than half your HP out).
Since then for TRs it has always been about selection and focus. Either you're built against these classes and weak against those, or vice versa. You can't have everything. Since mod4, every other class was a difficult target for the TR, the GWF with the bullshi* crazy Roar of doom(which soon changed to Intimidate of doom), the CW with the crazy nuke damage that deletes your presence within seconds, the HR that comes back to full life within seconds while draining yours crazy fast, or the GF that you can't scratch, or the DC that doesn't die.
So which one do you build for? Which are the ones you have no chance of beating? Selection and Focus.
Now, after mod5, TRs aren't the ones you simply ignore anymore. If you play bad, they kill you as fast as any GWF or CW or HR can kill you. The TRs have become so weak since mod2, that at the prime of mod4 people didn't even move around much on the node. HRs would just walk back and forth and expect you to come and attack, so they can just heal up all the damage and then land the gawdawful amount of DoTs on the TRs. CWs the same. Just wait until the TR comes to you. The CoS flings don't even hurt anyway. Just endure the DF with shield and HP, and then land DoTs. Woopee-too. Such a challenge.
Now that that has been changed, how much did they change? Are they trying different powers? Are they trying different tactics?
Nope. From the lowest PuGs, to the higher GS and experienced people, they're all the same. No difference in tactics. No difference in gear. No focus. No practice, no knowledge, just the same bland 'old standard' of fighting TRs. And then they die. And then they complain.
...
Here's a tip for the complainers.
Due to how the powers have been changed, the relative difficulty of facing a TR is greatly exaggerated the lower your performance.
A 18~20k level CW with 40k HP, Barkshield enchant and Shield on TAB, can actually mitigate at least half of Disheartening Strike damage from my 18k TR which would be around 25k damage but mitigated down to 11k on a 40k toon.
However, when you're a 11k CW fighting a 11k TR, you probably don't even have Barkshield enchantment, your HP is probably like 22k, and you'd probably be able to mitigate maybe 25~30% at most when a 11k TR throws you a DHS which will hit for about 17k. That's 12k damage on a 22k toon.
Get your gears going, and if you want to survive TRs then get it PvP worthy. You're not gonna be able to fight a TR when you're a 17k GS PvE setup with a horde of enchants invested into power but has pathetic 23k HP. TRs are naturally less effected by PvE setups because the bulk of its defense relies on stealth, so even PvE setups can have a certain impact. But other classes are different. You can't have it both ways. You can't be set for PvE and be prepared well enough to have a chance in PvP at the same time.
At least have the decency to try and prepare for something if you want to beat it. Jesus Christ. :rolleyes:
I read your whole statement, and I totally agree. People must learn how to play their classes in pvp, and must have good gear. Like you said TR was trash in mod 4, we couldn't even reach to casters (CW, SW), now finally we can hurt them, and they just don't like that, so they continue to trolling and crying on forum.
I read your whole statement, and I totally agree. People must learn how to play their classes in pvp, and must have good gear. Like you said TR was trash in mod 4, we couldn't even reach to casters (CW, SW), now finally we can hurt them, and they just don't like that, so they continue to trolling and crying on forum.
Its a good thing the Trs agree that all others need to l2p because right now THEY(read Trs) are balanced all others just need to learn to play THEIR CLASS(read all others)..
i complain but i do know what i am saying, people compare rogues cc to control wizards, but right now it isn't the same. If i am blocking blood bath it proc's conclusive strike and i get cc'ed and can't block blood bath. I finally manage to get the tr but i get cc'ed if he/she has potb up. Not even taking into effect the high deflection chance that makes griffon wrath near useless. The daze from stealth is a huge advantage that control wizards don't. not being able to see your target and defend against them or their cc's is why rogues are the strongest cast. Scoundrel is easier to deal with in a 2v1 but is impossible in a 1v1 unless you have a cc break or a dc, or another rogue. Sab is the **** 2v1 and 1v1. People say 1v1 is not what dom is about, but that is how you balance a game. Each class needs to have a good chance against another class 1v1. you can't ****ing say it is balance if you have to 2v1 a class to beat it. The dazing from stealth is the biggest advantage tr's have against cw and now they have controls that PROC. LIKE WTF. A CLASS THAT PROCS CONTROL EFFECTS. GIVE ME A ****ING BREAK. Now ever class needs a cc break, that is the state of the game now.
And i have be killing trs since open beta, just use tide of iron and you can hear the casting of duel flurry. you can kite their duel flurry, you can bait it when you have a daily up and then use SoS. Tr's could be handled since forever. Even mod4 there were still the best node holders by far until. everyone lacked a good chance to win against a hr. The intimidate gwf cap along and made it harder for everyone(must especially the trs). But even with all of this, there were/are still the best node holders and have always have a good chance of killing every class except hrs. Like where is this myth coming from about trs ever sucking? or is your standard of sucking higher than mine since i have played a gf since forever?
We were oppressed, persecuted, mocked, rejected in all the previous modules. Now it's time for our vendetta... it's time for us to shine, it's time for you all out there to see the true Rogue.
GWF abused immortality in module 2, then abused roar, HR's abused immortaltiy in module 3, then abused piercing blade in module 4, CW's abused Assaillant, then GWF were back at abusing with Intimidation.
But now... it's our turn to abuse, by either 1-shotting you, dazing you to death, or killing you in ghost-mode.
Feel the power of the Trickster Rogue down your spine.
well there you have it. anyway yeah dazing seems pretty overpowered atm, hopefully it respects cc resist.
I just read the posts. While I did not have many problems with TRs playing my GWF, I had 19k+ GS, 40k+ HP, full BI CW teammates killed in seconds by 13k TRs. This is just plain wrong.
While some TR players ask for a correction, you can sum up most of the TRs posts here to 'ltp', 'deal with it' or 'we deserve to be OP'.
Devs wanted to get rid of perma and they screwed up. If GWFs are an example, you will rule for a few more month and then get some 'new mechanics' <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up all possible builds, but one, if you are lucky.
I know, that roar was OP, assailant was OP, glyph GF was OP and countless other builds. It was wrong, at last most of the players admitted, that it needed a fix.
The perma critical strike from stealth I find is the most broken aspect of the current tr. Which means that if you have a regular vorpal you will always have a double damage buff when attacking from stealth. O right do you even need critical chance as a tr now?
The perma critical strike from stealth I find is the most broken aspect of the current tr. Which means that if you have a regular vorpal you will always have a double damage buff when attacking from stealth. O right do you even need critical chance as a tr now?
i have mentioned that many times as a flaw in the current design since it goes hand-in-hand with sabs and other trees that invest 10 points into sab tree. also boosts shadowy opportunity since it's damage goes up with criticals and combat advantage i think
i can understand how lashing is now dependent on stealth for a critical, but still....
I just read the posts. While I did not have many problems with TRs playing my GWF, I had 19k+ GS, 40k+ HP, full BI CW teammates killed in seconds by 13k TRs. This is just plain wrong.
While some TR players ask for a correction, you can sum up most of the TRs posts here to 'ltp', 'deal with it' or 'we deserve to be OP'.
Devs wanted to get rid of perma and they screwed up. If GWFs are an example, you will rule for a few more month and then get some 'new mechanics' <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up all possible builds, but one, if you are lucky.
I know, that roar was OP, assailant was OP, glyph GF was OP and countless other builds. It was wrong, at last most of the players admitted, that it needed a fix.
Just more wrong...another example of people who spread mistruths.
Mistruth 1: No 13k is taking a 19k "in seconds"..plz show proof. If the 19k is some PvE player who isn't trying at all, then it's possible.
Mistruth 2: The Devs did not want to get rid of perma, they made a whole path dedicated to it! How does one confuse the Dev's EMBRACEMENT of perma to be: "they want to get rid of it"?
Please take the time to adjust playstyles and learn the new rogue, they are beatable and pretty balanced. Quit demonizing and spreading false information.
Comments
Domination isn't 1vs1. Get your concepts straight first before arguing 'balance'.
I never said you need two people to kill a single Scoundrel. I've simply mentioned that Scoundrels are ill equipped to be holding nodes alone, since they aren't built for multi-target engagements like the Sabs/permas are. Besides, if you're having trouble with the TR back-capping the home node, then in all likelihood your TR is doing the same, and basically the fights pretty much simply decided on who holds the mid-node.
Besides, I've seen plenty of other classes beat TRs in preview. By the time the first week of preview was over the smarter bunch of players were already adapting their tactics to the new TRs. The only reason why it feels like TRs are overboard in PvP, is simply because most people are PuG level, average-grade players ill-equipped and thoroughly unprepared, and much less experienced.
When you walk into domination with something like 12k GS with 25k HP, you're simply offering yourself as free kills.
What people should do, is do what they can to better their odds first, and THEN come frickin' complain when it still doesn't work. But of course, people don't really do that, do they. They don't theorycraft. They don't respec. They don't get better gear, and they don't even get much practice with guildies. But one thing they do, despite of all that, is complain.
Figures, don't it. :rolleyes:
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
i would agree with you if i didn't control a rogue in stealth til they died on my wizard. not my fault you didn't pick oppressor or don't use your control encounters.
but the main thing about a wizard's control is the fact that its aoe and can be maintained easier than other classes.
dunno. i have had half my hp bar ripped out just because a wizard pointed his frost ray at me for a few seconds for a double proc that bypassed all my mitigation. chased after him since i know i can't survive another few seconds of it and the warlock i was attacking finished me off with killing flames while i was distracted.
i don't even want to know how quick i would die to 2 wizards with those procs.....
1 vs 1 we aren't easy to beat but this isn't a 1 vs 1 game. almost every fight in pvp is gonna have more than 2 people except at home nodes usually.
Again:
1. when an enemy TR goes to back-cap, so does yours. If it is difficult for your team to 1vs1 a TR for domination, then its the same for the other team as well. Hence, under that scenario the fight for domination is decided at node 2 at the middle.
2. If both teams send 1 or 2 people to clear backcap, then Scoundrels are the least of your worries, and Sabs are much more trickier and dangerous types of TRs to face alone.
In either case above, none of what makes a Scoundrel is of any real, deciding factor in Domination PvP format. Other builds are much more dangerous and influential. When it comes to a "1vs1 del without Domination PvP constraints" then the Scoundrel is freed from the 'leash', but then again so are other classes, and with a plenty of time and tactful moves -- also repeating myself again -- I've seen how other classes beat Scoundrels. GWFs and HRs have it around probably 50:50, GFs can be anything between 4:6 disadvantage to 5:5 equal, CWs and SWs have the worst of it and in my experience, a 4:6 or 3:7 in favor of the TR -- but still possible. DCs are difficult for any TR, and in TR vs TR it comes down to pure skill.
So in current "PVP", as in domination, the Scoundrels are of no special importance. Only the Sabs are the real game breakers. In "1vs1" duels, Scoundrels are tough opponents but still can be beaten, as I've seen some really good CWs and SWs do it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
huh? my loadout is useful against all classes and the aoe is essential for it even in pvp. i can understand icy terrain since that is now useless in pvp, but steal time + furious immolation has saved me a lot.
being able to daze a rogue for 4 sec (and everyone else in that huge aoe daily radius) in stealth b4 he even pulls off his 1-shot on me, stunning a rogue + gwf (who love to charge me 1st) for a couple seconds so i can focus on a single person for a bit, or disabling my shield to block an incoming lashing blade or force a gwf away from me for a bit. add in the other cc encounters and i can pretty much hold anyone i want as long as it's not a gwf.
i don't really die from rogues by themselves even though i am at 10k for now. bigger issue is that i am a juicy steak in the middle of a pack of wolves which is why i like my aoe cc.
i could argue about how the devs chose to make every feat path extremely different for each class, but that would require an essay.
Stop QQing about Sabotuer.
It's fine right now. You need to take risks whereas Scoundrel you can fall asleep while your target is dazed.
Scoundrel is the broken tree
Hear, hear.
In turn, what pisses ME off, is the fact that most of the complaints in the boards don't have even the slightest signs of sincere practice, study, or theorycrafting in them. It's just a vague, generalized view of negativity based on their vague, generalized way of fighting.
I dunno. Maybe its the fundamental difference of TR-based players and others, but one thing I do know is during the last 2 mods TRs were always accepting the fact they couldn't do everything. Mod2 was the last of the "Golden Ages" and the semi-permas ruled the game along with the god-mode GWFs, but starting from mod3 the rise of HRs and CWs have put us into a circumstance where you'd be standing right next to the CW or HR and they'd simply laugh in your face while you attack them, and then casually CC you and either blow you to smithereens or DoT you to death (with of course, a swipe of Fox's Shift that knocks more than half your HP out).
Since then for TRs it has always been about selection and focus. Either you're built against these classes and weak against those, or vice versa. You can't have everything. Since mod4, every other class was a difficult target for the TR, the GWF with the bullshi* crazy Roar of doom(which soon changed to Intimidate of doom), the CW with the crazy nuke damage that deletes your presence within seconds, the HR that comes back to full life within seconds while draining yours crazy fast, or the GF that you can't scratch, or the DC that doesn't die.
So which one do you build for? Which are the ones you have no chance of beating? Selection and Focus.
Now, after mod5, TRs aren't the ones you simply ignore anymore. If you play bad, they kill you as fast as any GWF or CW or HR can kill you. The TRs have become so weak since mod2, that at the prime of mod4 people didn't even move around much on the node. HRs would just walk back and forth and expect you to come and attack, so they can just heal up all the damage and then land the gawdawful amount of DoTs on the TRs. CWs the same. Just wait until the TR comes to you. The CoS flings don't even hurt anyway. Just endure the DF with shield and HP, and then land DoTs. Woopee-too. Such a challenge.
Now that that has been changed, how much did they change? Are they trying different powers? Are they trying different tactics?
Nope. From the lowest PuGs, to the higher GS and experienced people, they're all the same. No difference in tactics. No difference in gear. No focus. No practice, no knowledge, just the same bland 'old standard' of fighting TRs. And then they die. And then they complain.
...
Here's a tip for the complainers.
Due to how the powers have been changed, the relative difficulty of facing a TR is greatly exaggerated the lower your performance.
A 18~20k level CW with 40k HP, Barkshield enchant and Shield on TAB, can actually mitigate at least half of Disheartening Strike damage from my 18k TR which would be around 25k damage but mitigated down to 11k on a 40k toon.
However, when you're a 11k CW fighting a 11k TR, you probably don't even have Barkshield enchantment, your HP is probably like 22k, and you'd probably be able to mitigate maybe 25~30% at most when a 11k TR throws you a DHS which will hit for about 17k. That's 12k damage on a 22k toon.
Get your gears going, and if you want to survive TRs then get it PvP worthy. You're not gonna be able to fight a TR when you're a 17k GS PvE setup with a horde of enchants invested into power but has pathetic 23k HP. TRs are naturally less effected by PvE setups because the bulk of its defense relies on stealth, so even PvE setups can have a certain impact. But other classes are different. You can't have it both ways. You can't be set for PvE and be prepared well enough to have a chance in PvP at the same time.
At least have the decency to try and prepare for something if you want to beat it. Jesus Christ. :rolleyes:
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Mod5 Sab's the most broken OP stuff since very early days of the TRs.
A WK/Sab/perma for that matter, is the most powerful OP perma build in the history of NW.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's a problem in Disheartening Strike and not in the tree. You can build whatever and as long as you can perma throw DS, you'll see no difference in being scoundrel, saboteur or executioner whatsoever.
It's a whole different story.
Wasn't so OP when it lasted for only 6 ticks over 5 seconds.
And yes, it IS in the tree. The fundamental truth behind the WK/Sab is that it's a build that 'slips through a crack'.
Sab disregards the consequences of stealth depletion by its very nature, by giving 3 stealth-refillers that can be cycled through perfectly
DHS disregards the consequences of stealth depletion by racking up average 17~20k damage with just 1 attackt(= -15%) than 3~4 attacks from other at-wills(= -45 ~ -60%)
Not only that, but Sab is also sick in PvE. I've discovered the method to deal insane damage through hitting stealthed DF with EVERY DF attack, which racks up Shadowy Opportunity-assisted DF flurry damage that makes you want to vomit...
Sab's got issues, man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
For the other trees, DHS damage is exactly the same as Mod 4. It's just spread over a longer duration. Nobody complained about DHS being OP in Mod 4. Guess what's different in Mod 5?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I know exactly how to fight them bring 4 others to a node and make them run away in hide, you loose the game every time but at least he only get to kill 2 before he has to run away. Well that is unless he is wk sab then he kills all 5 while talking in the phone and pron surfing at the same time.....
I read your whole statement, and I totally agree. People must learn how to play their classes in pvp, and must have good gear. Like you said TR was trash in mod 4, we couldn't even reach to casters (CW, SW), now finally we can hurt them, and they just don't like that, so they continue to trolling and crying on forum.
Its a good thing the Trs agree that all others need to l2p because right now THEY(read Trs) are balanced all others just need to learn to play THEIR CLASS(read all others)..
Amazing isent it .....
While some TR players ask for a correction, you can sum up most of the TRs posts here to 'ltp', 'deal with it' or 'we deserve to be OP'.
Devs wanted to get rid of perma and they screwed up. If GWFs are an example, you will rule for a few more month and then get some 'new mechanics' <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up all possible builds, but one, if you are lucky.
I know, that roar was OP, assailant was OP, glyph GF was OP and countless other builds. It was wrong, at last most of the players admitted, that it needed a fix.
i have mentioned that many times as a flaw in the current design since it goes hand-in-hand with sabs and other trees that invest 10 points into sab tree. also boosts shadowy opportunity since it's damage goes up with criticals and combat advantage i think
i can understand how lashing is now dependent on stealth for a critical, but still....
Just more wrong...another example of people who spread mistruths.
Mistruth 1: No 13k is taking a 19k "in seconds"..plz show proof. If the 19k is some PvE player who isn't trying at all, then it's possible.
Mistruth 2: The Devs did not want to get rid of perma, they made a whole path dedicated to it! How does one confuse the Dev's EMBRACEMENT of perma to be: "they want to get rid of it"?
Please take the time to adjust playstyles and learn the new rogue, they are beatable and pretty balanced. Quit demonizing and spreading false information.