p.s tr's have as much cc as cw,hit hard, tankier, and hard to focus.
Maybe in your version of reality where TRs are given 100 feat points to spend so he can do everything.
Not in my version where we are either one of:
(a) CC oriented at the sacrifice of frquent stealth-drops
(b) a one-trick pony with a superbly powerful alpha strike but not much else
(c) perma-stealth
...and I'm pretty sure my version of reality describes NW better.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So you're surprised that a pug team with 2 GFs failed to beat a premade team with a strong team composition? Perhaps temper your expectations.
And does concussive strikes go through CC-immunity? I know it doesn't in PvE and I know that it doesn't go through Unstoppable nor ITC nor GF Block. It sounds more like a bug with Valiant Warrior (then again GF Dailies are super buggy, so I wouldn't be surprised).
So you're surprised that a pug team with 2 GFs failed to beat a premade team with a strong team composition? Perhaps temper your expectations.
And does concussive strikes go through CC-immunity? I know it doesn't in PvE and I know that it doesn't go through Unstoppable nor ITC nor GF Block. It sounds more like a bug with Valiant Warrior (then again GF Dailies are super buggy, so I wouldn't be surprised).
no we weren't a pug team. the other guys where chocoshoppe and 20k gs dc and cw
The FACT, that I inspected the CW, the FACT, that I saw him die, the FACT, that he was very verbal about his fights, leads me to one of two conclusions. Either he lied about the TR (there was a perma 21k TR he NEVER saw) or the 13k TR killed him multiple times. Logic dictates, that the second scenario is more likely.
You are free to belive otherwise.
You saw his health meter go down, you did not see him die.
He is verbal - conclusion is he is probably a whiner who is just jumping to wild conclusions and not observing the situation for what it was.
Logic does not dictate that your second scenario is correct. You have presented zero facts!
I pepper people from stealth with rogue bleeds and run off all the time, leaving others to finish the job...that could very well be a possibility too :P PvP can be a confusing place to discern what is really happening.
what they sacrifice is nothing compared to what other classes sacrifice. scoundrel whether wk, or mi will hit hard but lower stealth but all they need stealth for is for panic mode, hence making them harder to kill. deflection is a *****. itc is a *****, cc's that proc?? bull****.
What they sacrifice is the 100% crit chance from frequent stealth, not to mention the risk of being visible and targetable with only the RNG based protection of deflect to rely on.
No single TR build has all of these. You've added all three trees together.
And no, Scoundrel does not have as much CC as a CW. I guess you don't play either class?
What he means is he can ROFLstomp CWs since he blocks all the CW CC attempts just by facing the guy and holding down one button, but he can't pull tha cheesy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> against TRs, so its "unfair".
Obvious, innit?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yes, let's roll TRs back to module 4. They aren't supposed to be able to win 1v1s, since they can use permastealth to contest. The TR's party role is to stall and wait for help while keeping the node split, it's not a TR job to win 1v1s against any other class. Is that how you meant we should stop thinking in those terms?
You've got issues. I recommend a bowl of cheese with some great whines.
[EDIT]
But to just humour you and your tireless "nerf something I have problems with" agenda, clearly the emphasis on combat organization was meant to insinuate the circumstances where someone is unable to handle a 1vs1 alone - since a 1vs1 is but a small part of the many means involved in achieving the object of Domination - the current PvP format.
Typically, and quite obviously for many reasons, a class (for example) like a CW is best used as a support as it is primarily ranged, has limited self-protection, and susceptible to CCs. Many other similarly themed MMOGs also typically depict the 'assassin' or 'stealthed' classes as having natural advantages over ranged casting classes. It is simply the same here in NW.
Sure, some people would climb over the "average" levels of gameplay and achieve a state where they would actually be able to fight off a TR despite the inherent disadvantage -- a feat I've witnessed repeatedly happening during the weeks of preview -- but in most cases, assuming an average level of skill it would be a difficult feat to accomplish in PuG levels.
So, does that mean the TR class should be stripped of all its natural advantages against a CW? Does the CW need to stand at an exactly equal footing against TRs in every perceiveable situation? If you want that then other classes would also have every right to use the same lines of logic to demand an equal footing to everyone else. The DC has the right to ask for as strong CCs and nuking power as the CWs. The HRs should demand as adamant CC protection as the GWFs. The GFs should be asking for as much DoT capability as the HRs so they can deal DoTs and then raise block to LS and damage the entire way.
When people start using 1vs1 as a reference of judging balance --- especially when its a 1vs1 situation happening in PvP domination, with flawed and blurry memories, exaggerated feelings and anger, and wildly different gear/skill differences between people --- then the only solution we arrive at is homogenization of all classes, so they're merely named and skinned differently, but in essence are exactly the same skill/function-wise.
...and FYI, a Scoundrel usually would rather avoid having to go in a 1vs1 against a GWF or a GF, or even a DC, since under domination settings the time and effort required to fight these classes and kill them requires dangerously inappropriate amounts of time -- every moment you spend to deal dazes and such is a moment you spend in vulnerability from other possible enemies, as well as ties you up from doing your job.
Under this premise, the mere presence of a GWF, GF or a DC neuters the presence of a Scoundrel in domination. You don't need to kill him to keep him from his doing his job. That's what I mean when I mention team tactics.
If it was a 1vs1, I'd take plenty of time in wearing out these particularly tough classes, and possibly manage a win, but domination PvP ain't no 1vs1, izzit? Those 3 classes, when well played, are classes which a Scoundrel is hard pressed to win. In many cases a mistake, or even an unlucky deflection of your daze attempt would totally ruin the attack pattern and turn the tables around -- which, a Scoundrel might not escape from since a Scoundrel ain't no perma Sab. So those 3 classes are at least matched against a Scoundrel, while the other 3 have it tough. In other words, if you are a GWF, a GF or a DC being constantly killed by a Scoundrel -- then the problem is on your end, not with any TR.
I should know. I'm the one who invented the "modern Scoundrel tactics" for mod5.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Those 3 classes, when well played, are classes which a Scoundrel is hard pressed to win. In many cases a mistake, or even an unlucky deflection of your daze attempt would totally ruin the attack pattern and turn the tables around -- which, a Scoundrel might not escape from since a Scoundrel ain't no perma Sab. So those 3 classes are at least matched against a Scoundrel, while the other 3 have it tough. In other words, if you are a GWF, a GF or a DC being constantly killed by a Scoundrel -- then the problem is on your end, not with any TR.
I should know. I'm the one who invented the "modern Scoundrel tactics" for mod5.
Again a load of total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from ever so valiant defender of Trs Kweassa.
And again its the others that need to l2p and again the reasoning comes from premade bis team playing against eachother.
In reality you dodge roll away and are gone until you decide it times to come back or move to the next target to finish the game with 30-0 as usal.
Kwassa and twiligh is on every single thread in a never ending crusade to defend Trs being able to wade through enemys and kill at lesure.
You 2 must be spending considerable hours in reading and writing because the threads about the OPness of Trs are getting more and more by the day - wounder why doh.....
Twilight uses the tactics of pointint out that HOW you say things is wrong or that THAT part of your argument is not valid etc while kweassa focus on telling you that you need l2p and technical descriptons of never ending text where he explains that everthing is ok...
It dont really matter that these 2 desperate souls willing to defend something that defies the very essence of the word broken class its to obvious to everybody and the EVIDENCE of how Trs with LOW gs can wreck hole partys in a way NEVER seen before gather up each day.
Example pugged about 10 matches yesterday with a guildie Trs gs 13 with my Hr gs 20 in every single match he had more kills and in those matches that was lost or even less death.
I switched to my gwf gs 20 the last 4 games and he still killed more and died in total less.
In most matches he topped the Kills and in those matches he dident another Tr did and yes he is sab but he is a nob in pvp as a Tr compared to most Trs he playes 3 classes and mostly cw and very little Tr.
The problem for you 2 Kweassa and Twilight isent that I experianced it the problem for you is that EVERY SINGLE NON TR experiance the same thing day out and day in.
So all in all stay on this forum defending the Trs in every single thread all you want it wont change the FACT that Trs are BROKEN and everybody knows it.......
Example pugged about 10 matches yesterday with a guildie Trs gs 13 with my Hr gs 20 in every single match he had more kills and in those matches that was lost or even less death.
I switched to my gwf gs 20 the last 4 games and he still killed more and died in total less.
In most matches he topped the Kills and in those matches he dident another Tr did and yes he is sab but he is a nob in pvp as a Tr compared to most Trs he playes 3 classes and mostly cw and very little Tr.
The problem for you 2 Kweassa and Twilight isent that I experianced it the problem for you is that EVERY SINGLE NON TR experiance the same thing day out and day in.
So all in all stay on this forum defending the Trs in every single thread all you want it wont change the FACT that Trs are BROKEN and everybody knows it.......
since this is a thread about scoundrels, you might want to exclude the 1-shot executioners and sabs using bloodbath
edit: ironically, my 10k flame oppressor wizard just soloed a scoundrel xD
another match where i didn't die with 2 rogues on other team:
so what do you say about me who can solo these "alleged" low gs rogues on my 10k flame oppressor wizard (which so many wizards see as inferior because of a lack of immediate/direct dps) and even didn't die a single time with 2 rogues harassing me? or what about the time where i was afk and came back to see myself at 50% hp while being flurried by a rogue, then ended up killing the rogue in 5 seconds or so.
the rogues that i fight may get the highest kills on their team, but i will make sure they die. i may get the lowest score/kills, but i am probably the greatest assist my team could ever ask for.
ps: if you reference sabs/executioners, then you shouldn't be arguing in this thread which is about nerfing scoundrels.
pss: kweassa is right about gwf's/clerics completely countering scoundrels. guardians are more skill-dependent but i can usually run quick enough to get behind their block. even a dps cleric ripped out half my rogue's hp in a few seconds and caused me to die b4 i could kill someone >.>. clerics win games......
The overall key though, is honesty. The strength of TRs shouldn't be to be the kings of 1v1s (though they should win their fair share, which was a problem in module 4), but to be the ones that can extend a fight the longest, making their team contribution the ability to operate solo as node contesters.
that's just a perma not attacking and running in circles. they can still do that if they want, but that has nothing to do with actual balance. that's just relying on a tab mechanic and stealth refills.
o what do you say about me who can solo these "alleged" low gs rogues on my 10k flame oppressor wizard (which so many wizards see as inferior because of a lack of immediate/direct dps) and even didn't die a single time with 2 rogues harassing me? or what about the time where i was afk and came back to see myself at 50% hp while being flurried by a rogue, then ended up killing the rogue in 5 seconds or so.
the rogues that i fight may get the highest kills on their team, but i will make sure they die. i may get the lowest score/kills, but i am probably the greatest assist my team could ever ask for.
ps: if you reference sabs/executioners, then you shouldn't be arguing in this thread which is about nerfing scoundrels.
pss: kweassa is right about gwf's/clerics completely countering scoundrels. guardians are more skill-dependent but i can usually run quick enough to get behind their block. even a dps cleric ripped out half my rogue's hp in a few seconds and caused me to die b4 i could kill someone >.>. clerics win games......
So mr Kissass whish Trs is your main?
Your tries to prove that some 10kgs silly Cw can challange the Trs dominace is so pathetic it falls on deaf ears.
If you feel so mighty and dandy and are delusional enough to think you are the man the myth the legend that manage to withstand the might of the new Trs with you impressive 10k gs cw we can arange some fights in iwd and you can show you MIGHTY spellcasting wounderboy.
I am sure there are many eager to learn from you wisdom.....
Your tries to prove that some 10kgs silly Cw can challange the Trs dominace is so pathetic it falls on deaf ears.
If you feel so mighty and dandy and are delusional enough to think you are the man the myth the legend that manage to withstand the might of the new Trs with you impressive 10k gs cw we can arange some fights in iwd and you can show you MIGHTY spellcasting wounderboy.
I am sure there are many eager to learn from you wisdom.....
never bothered to get boons on that character since i cared more for my other classes. regardless, i don't do open pvp where pets/ganking is abundant.
also, part of how i catch a rogue is the indicator that they are on a node which does not exist in open pvp. if you can't dodge a 1-shot or control them back with that much of a warning, then there is no help for you. the other advantage is that i don't even have to look for an invisible rogue since they now have to enter melee range to do anything to me. as such, i can just start up a steal time and ruin their only chance of hitting me with a lashing blade. sabs take more time, but they can't avoid my controls forever.
lastly, so many people don't know how vulnerable a rogue is when their encounters miss. a rogue that can't land a lashing, smoke bomb, or dazing strike from stealth and even afterwards are extremely fragile to their enemies. it's something i learned in module 2 when wizards did it to my rogue when i was still an executioner.
ps: agreeing with someone doesn't make me their pet. it's an actual fact since i do main a rogue and know how they fight. it's VERY simple to counter them since every last one of them act in such a straightforward and honest manner.
The problem for you 2 Kweassa and Twilight isent that I experianced it the problem for you is that EVERY SINGLE NON TR experiance the same thing day out and day in.
So all in all stay on this forum defending the Trs in every single thread all you want it wont change the FACT that Trs are BROKEN and everybody knows it.......
And your problem is you can't put together a coherent argument or apparently comprehend what people post. Also, throwing the word FACT around in capitals automatically loses any internet argument.
I guess you missed the threads where both of us discussed parts of the current TR that are, in fact, 'broken'? Too busy foaming at the mouth?
And then when someone calls you out on your BS hyperbole you immediately launch into an Ad Hominem attack. :rolleyes:
What he means is he can ROFLstomp CWs since he blocks all the CW CC attempts just by facing the guy and holding down one button, but he can't pull tha cheesy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> against TRs, so its "unfair".
Obvious, innit?
i understand i class advantages and all, yes i have a shift ability, but you know what? when i am blocking i am not doing insane dmg. i need to drop it to do insane dmg. Your tab is the cheesiest and strongest defense in the game. you can also do great dmg from it. being able to be invisible and cc people gives you an immense amount of advantage. listen everything would be better if villains menace would jus work as intended. can daze duration from dazing strike be deflected? I know the daze from conclusive can't.
HRs were posting similar scores at one point. Heck, I've posted similar scores myself on different toons in past mods and I'm a distinctly average PvPer. Snapshots like this don't really prove much one way or another. It was just an illustration that a CW could, in fact, compete with enemy TRs under certain circumstances.
he said that he didn't he had help then said he soloed them, and then said he had help again. He is being inconsistent. Anyway I think(don't have prove) that his tr's were much more capable than the other trs on their team and they could have been the ones to make those tr's near useless, especially if he had 2 hrs and 2trs all with insane scores. from what i saw from his picture, he got carried.
he said that he didn't he had help then said he soloed them, and then said he had help again. He is being inconsistent. Anyway I think(don't have prove) that his tr's were much more capable than the other trs on their team and they could have been the ones to make those tr's near useless, especially if he had 2 hrs and 2trs all with insane scores. from what i saw from his picture, he got carried.
He said he soloed one or two times and had assists other times. Sounds like a normal match to me. The point was that people who are saying that any low-gs TR wins 100% of fights against a CW were wrong, and that there ARE ways to win against them. Since hardly anybody runs MoF in PvP it's hardly surprising that these wins are rare.
But i have to say that a 10k gs tr is not going to beat a 23k gs anyone
More or less true but I bet ya that against a sw they can win if not all at least some and they would stay alive against gf for sure,,,
But his argument is that he can manage Trs on his 10 k gs cw because he cant *play so good.....
can daze duration from dazing strike be deflected? I know the daze from conclusive can't.
AFAIK, both can be deflected, or at least that is my experience on my TR, both on the receiving end and on the giving one.
Does anyone want to test this Villain's Menace stuff with me? I have IWD on my GF, and would love to make a bug thread if I could get a Scoundrel to throw some CoS at me for a while.
Since this thread has become something of a he-said-she-said, how about we refocus and try to look at what could or could not be used to make people okay with Scoundrel as it stands.
Would increasing the internal CD of Concussive Strike in PvP to maybe 7.5 seconds work well enough? How about combining that with a reduction of DHS's duration? If that's not good enough, what more do people want?
One tr went 3-10 the other 0-15(boot comes to mind and with you being 10k cw thinkin you do great against trs it makes alot more sence lol) their entire team came up with 5 kills total against yours 64 so how about total domination agains a extreamly poor geared team.
That is what comes into my mind.
How you even can be so utterly silly to try to write (with a Tr as main) that Trs are ok and cw can manage easy if they play smart when your team goes 64-5 just makes you the troll you are sorry to say.
Alot of people write stuff that are more or less far from the truth but a 10k cw with a main as tr that tries to argue that he has np problem with trs might take the price if not of the year but at least of the month....
that was just the rarest match in which i didn't die. i do die to ganks and when i forget to activate shield (sometimes i feel like it goes off on it's own and leaves me defenseless when i don't expect it)
what happens in most of my matches is similar to that though. i outright deny rogues their high kill:death ratios due to not dying and controlling them to death. like i said, they can't do much if they miss every encounter they throw at me.
or are you saying that you have never been able to dodge a rogue's attacks from stealth?
Since this thread has become something of a he-said-she-said, how about we refocus and try to look at what could or could not be used to make people okay with Scoundrel as it stands.
Would increasing the internal CD of Concussive Strike in PvP to maybe 7.5 seconds work well enough? How about combining that with a reduction of DHS's duration? If that's not good enough, what more do people want?
perfectly fine with me as long as it's not a global daze icd
he said that he didn't he had help then said he soloed them, and then said he had help again. He is being inconsistent. Anyway I think(don't have prove) that his tr's were much more capable than the other trs on their team and they could have been the ones to make those tr's near useless, especially if he had 2 hrs and 2trs all with insane scores. from what i saw from his picture, he got carried.
i told you b4 that i can solo, but i am specced for support.
their scores were that high because i controlled mostly everyone they killed. if not for that, it would not be so lopsided. in fact, the order people die in during my matches usually follow whoever i target. other thing is that i don't camp the enemy spawn or their home node, so i stay at mid while they rack up points (probably lost out on a dozen or so assists from that).
it's like trying to measure healing done in pvp or benefits of cleric buffs in pve. it's impossible without a video.
Since this thread has become something of a he-said-she-said, how about we refocus and try to look at what could or could not be used to make people okay with Scoundrel as it stands.
Would increasing the internal CD of Concussive Strike in PvP to maybe 7.5 seconds work well enough? How about combining that with a reduction of DHS's duration? If that's not good enough, what more do people want?
An increased CD on Concussive Strikes would have to be global I think, which would affect PvE. How much I'm not sure - it's not hard to keep a mob dazed at the moment. A better solution might be to reduce daze duration against players only?
DHS isn't a particular issue for Scoundrels but it probably does need a tone down. Either return it to the Mod 4 version (half the duration, 10% more damage) or leave the damage as is and go for a 10s duration (much smaller damage buff than current version).
An increased CD on Concussive Strikes would have to be global I think, which would affect PvE. How much I'm not sure - it's not hard to keep a mob dazed at the moment. A better solution might be to reduce daze duration against players only?
6s ICD with a 2s duration is about the best compromise. Changed from a theoretical 50% uptime, to a 33% uptime.
Anything less than 2s in duration is unacceptable. We had the shorter duration in the very first preview version. People laughed about it, and would say, "What was that? Was that lag?" The effect would proc and then go away before you even noticed the CC bar at the bottom of the screen. In testings, people would use to think they either got a short glitch or a lag. They don't even notice that it was a CC.
DHS isn't a particular issue for Scoundrels but it probably does need a tone down. Either return it to the Mod 4 version (half the duration, 10% more damage) or leave the damage as is and go for a 10s duration (much smaller damage buff than current version).
Personally I support the "same damage, shorter duration" solution, in which case you're given a choice.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
6s ICD with a 2s duration is about the best compromise. Changed from a theoretical 50% uptime, to a 33% uptime.
Current uptime is 60% so this suggestion basically halves the uptime of a core mechanic. That might work in PvP but in PvE against multiple mobs that's a pretty significant nerf. And totally unnecessary in PvE. The ability to suppress crowds of mobs compensates for spitball DPS against CC immune targets. If you halve the effectiveness of Scoundrel CC in PvE they will not get picked for groups as they offer nothing else - damage against bosses is mediocre at best.
I'd grudgingly support a 6s ICD if the reduction in duration was for players only so that in PvE the uptime dropped from 60% to 50%. But even that is an unnecessary nerf to PvE Scoundrels.
Personally I support the "same damage, shorter duration" solution, in which case you're given a choice.
DPS of DHS was increased to compensate for stealth drain. In PvE this is not excessive as mobs tend to die before DHS can tick for the full duration anyway. The one exception is bosses, where setting up a crit DHS bleed is one of the few ways a Scoundrel can do any noticeable DPS against CC immune targets. As long as the duration stays at around 10s or so this is still a DPS boost and should work. Anything shorter and DHS gets a nerf from the original version which was hardly OP.
Scoundrel is indeed the lesser evil of the 3 specs. However, their dazes should have half the duration on players, like stun has. All the more since we established that daze duration is not affected by deflect. Being dazed for 50%+ of the time when fighting a scoundrel TR is cruel.
I have an idea:
Lets all (scoundrel TRs) reset and use saboteurs builds, as many players annoyed by stuns said it is better to dodge from stealthed (all the time) enemy than see your enemy and allow him to stun you! We really need to consider ourselfs as threat to balance by using scoundrel tree and use more balanced tree (according to whining community) which saboteur clearly is.
Really, it's better to dodge attacks from invisible source, that never reveals itself, than having a chance to fight back right? Right?
I have an idea:
Lets all (scoundrel TRs) reset and use saboteurs builds, as many players annoyed by stuns said it is better to dodge from stealthed (all the time) enemy than see your enemy and allow him to stun you! We really need to consider ourselfs as threat to balance by using scoundrel tree and use more balanced tree (according to whining community) which saboteur clearly is.
Really, it's better to dodge attacks from invisible source, that never reveals itself, than having a chance to fight back right? Right?
Not much difference tbh. You're either dazed and unable to do anything or you're chasing shadows the moment daze ends.
Example pugged about 10 matches yesterday with a guildie Trs gs 13 with my Hr gs 20 in every single match he had more kills and in those matches that was lost or even less death. I switched to my gwf gs 20 the last 4 games and he still killed more and died in total less.
In most matches he topped the Kills and in those matches he dident another Tr did and yes he is sab but he is a nob in pvp as a Tr compared to most Trs he playes 3 classes and mostly cw and very little Tr.
So your big logic & analysis on just under what terms TRs are OP, is simply based on the fact that you don't like people with lower GS than you are doing better than you in kills and deaths.
Wow. Such genius. :rolleyes:
The problem for you 2 Kweassa and Twilight isent that I experianced it the problem for you is that EVERY SINGLE NON TR experiance the same thing day out and day in.
So all in all stay on this forum defending the Trs in every single thread all you want it wont change the FACT that Trs are BROKEN and everybody knows it.......
Except there is no "fact" that TRs are broken. These anti-TR sentiments are simply a bunch of jumbled up non-sense which even contradict each other, that ranges between people who;
(a) make stories up
(b) argue a physically/systematically impossible things are happening
(c) misreads their own combat logs and claim TRs do 180k damage with one at-will
(d) can't tell difference between paths and just mix them up to create an imaginary invincible TR
(e) build characters with same HP as we used to have 12 months ago and then whine about being 1-shot
(f) or all other sorts of bullshi* which isn't even mentioning.
Currently there is ONE broken path among three, alongside a 2~3 powers that need revision. Other traits might need minor reworks as well, but almost all the issues people whine here about can be avoided through either skill, or adequate preparation. For exmaple, how many of you fekkin' whiners prepare Oghma's Token of Free Movement when you see a Scoundrel around? (Which, in all likelihood most of the whiners can't even tell the difference between Scoundrels and Sabs...)
What, you don't want to spend AD or time and effort getting an equipment/setting just for countering one TR? Ever stop and think carefully its that kind of lousy, sloppy, and lazy attitude which makes you lose everytime? All the more merry-ding irony being that most whiners on these boards don't even correctly point out what is OP and needs to be nerfed. They still whine about one-shot LBs which is simply an indicator of low skill level PvP with inadequate level of preparation with non-optimal builds.
This ain't no democracy. The imaginary TR that stays permastealth all the while permadazing and then one-shots people around don't exist no matter how often you repeat the bullshi*.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I play Soundrel feat, It is not op, and I still think the gs gap cuz the issue. I can smoke +ds dazing +atwills easy defeat some player, but some others are not even lost half of their hp and able to run away. And permastealth tr are more danger, still same old issue: hard to catch them....even with dazing
Comments
Maybe in your version of reality where TRs are given 100 feat points to spend so he can do everything.
Not in my version where we are either one of:
(a) CC oriented at the sacrifice of frquent stealth-drops
(b) a one-trick pony with a superbly powerful alpha strike but not much else
(c) perma-stealth
...and I'm pretty sure my version of reality describes NW better.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And does concussive strikes go through CC-immunity? I know it doesn't in PvE and I know that it doesn't go through Unstoppable nor ITC nor GF Block. It sounds more like a bug with Valiant Warrior (then again GF Dailies are super buggy, so I wouldn't be surprised).
no we weren't a pug team. the other guys where chocoshoppe and 20k gs dc and cw
And no, Scoundrel does not have as much CC as a CW. I guess you don't play either class?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
No they don't. Again proof...this one should be really easy for you!
You saw his health meter go down, you did not see him die.
He is verbal - conclusion is he is probably a whiner who is just jumping to wild conclusions and not observing the situation for what it was.
Logic does not dictate that your second scenario is correct. You have presented zero facts!
I pepper people from stealth with rogue bleeds and run off all the time, leaving others to finish the job...that could very well be a possibility too :P PvP can be a confusing place to discern what is really happening.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
What he means is he can ROFLstomp CWs since he blocks all the CW CC attempts just by facing the guy and holding down one button, but he can't pull tha cheesy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> against TRs, so its "unfair".
Obvious, innit?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You've got issues. I recommend a bowl of cheese with some great whines.
[EDIT]
But to just humour you and your tireless "nerf something I have problems with" agenda, clearly the emphasis on combat organization was meant to insinuate the circumstances where someone is unable to handle a 1vs1 alone - since a 1vs1 is but a small part of the many means involved in achieving the object of Domination - the current PvP format.
Typically, and quite obviously for many reasons, a class (for example) like a CW is best used as a support as it is primarily ranged, has limited self-protection, and susceptible to CCs. Many other similarly themed MMOGs also typically depict the 'assassin' or 'stealthed' classes as having natural advantages over ranged casting classes. It is simply the same here in NW.
Sure, some people would climb over the "average" levels of gameplay and achieve a state where they would actually be able to fight off a TR despite the inherent disadvantage -- a feat I've witnessed repeatedly happening during the weeks of preview -- but in most cases, assuming an average level of skill it would be a difficult feat to accomplish in PuG levels.
So, does that mean the TR class should be stripped of all its natural advantages against a CW? Does the CW need to stand at an exactly equal footing against TRs in every perceiveable situation? If you want that then other classes would also have every right to use the same lines of logic to demand an equal footing to everyone else. The DC has the right to ask for as strong CCs and nuking power as the CWs. The HRs should demand as adamant CC protection as the GWFs. The GFs should be asking for as much DoT capability as the HRs so they can deal DoTs and then raise block to LS and damage the entire way.
When people start using 1vs1 as a reference of judging balance --- especially when its a 1vs1 situation happening in PvP domination, with flawed and blurry memories, exaggerated feelings and anger, and wildly different gear/skill differences between people --- then the only solution we arrive at is homogenization of all classes, so they're merely named and skinned differently, but in essence are exactly the same skill/function-wise.
...and FYI, a Scoundrel usually would rather avoid having to go in a 1vs1 against a GWF or a GF, or even a DC, since under domination settings the time and effort required to fight these classes and kill them requires dangerously inappropriate amounts of time -- every moment you spend to deal dazes and such is a moment you spend in vulnerability from other possible enemies, as well as ties you up from doing your job.
Under this premise, the mere presence of a GWF, GF or a DC neuters the presence of a Scoundrel in domination. You don't need to kill him to keep him from his doing his job. That's what I mean when I mention team tactics.
If it was a 1vs1, I'd take plenty of time in wearing out these particularly tough classes, and possibly manage a win, but domination PvP ain't no 1vs1, izzit? Those 3 classes, when well played, are classes which a Scoundrel is hard pressed to win. In many cases a mistake, or even an unlucky deflection of your daze attempt would totally ruin the attack pattern and turn the tables around -- which, a Scoundrel might not escape from since a Scoundrel ain't no perma Sab. So those 3 classes are at least matched against a Scoundrel, while the other 3 have it tough. In other words, if you are a GWF, a GF or a DC being constantly killed by a Scoundrel -- then the problem is on your end, not with any TR.
I should know. I'm the one who invented the "modern Scoundrel tactics" for mod5.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Again a load of total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from ever so valiant defender of Trs Kweassa.
And again its the others that need to l2p and again the reasoning comes from premade bis team playing against eachother.
In reality you dodge roll away and are gone until you decide it times to come back or move to the next target to finish the game with 30-0 as usal.
Kwassa and twiligh is on every single thread in a never ending crusade to defend Trs being able to wade through enemys and kill at lesure.
You 2 must be spending considerable hours in reading and writing because the threads about the OPness of Trs are getting more and more by the day - wounder why doh.....
Twilight uses the tactics of pointint out that HOW you say things is wrong or that THAT part of your argument is not valid etc while kweassa focus on telling you that you need l2p and technical descriptons of never ending text where he explains that everthing is ok...
It dont really matter that these 2 desperate souls willing to defend something that defies the very essence of the word broken class its to obvious to everybody and the EVIDENCE of how Trs with LOW gs can wreck hole partys in a way NEVER seen before gather up each day.
Example pugged about 10 matches yesterday with a guildie Trs gs 13 with my Hr gs 20 in every single match he had more kills and in those matches that was lost or even less death.
I switched to my gwf gs 20 the last 4 games and he still killed more and died in total less.
In most matches he topped the Kills and in those matches he dident another Tr did and yes he is sab but he is a nob in pvp as a Tr compared to most Trs he playes 3 classes and mostly cw and very little Tr.
The problem for you 2 Kweassa and Twilight isent that I experianced it the problem for you is that EVERY SINGLE NON TR experiance the same thing day out and day in.
So all in all stay on this forum defending the Trs in every single thread all you want it wont change the FACT that Trs are BROKEN and everybody knows it.......
so what do you say about me who can solo these "alleged" low gs rogues on my 10k flame oppressor wizard (which so many wizards see as inferior because of a lack of immediate/direct dps) and even didn't die a single time with 2 rogues harassing me? or what about the time where i was afk and came back to see myself at 50% hp while being flurried by a rogue, then ended up killing the rogue in 5 seconds or so.
the rogues that i fight may get the highest kills on their team, but i will make sure they die. i may get the lowest score/kills, but i am probably the greatest assist my team could ever ask for.
ps: if you reference sabs/executioners, then you shouldn't be arguing in this thread which is about nerfing scoundrels.
pss: kweassa is right about gwf's/clerics completely countering scoundrels. guardians are more skill-dependent but i can usually run quick enough to get behind their block. even a dps cleric ripped out half my rogue's hp in a few seconds and caused me to die b4 i could kill someone >.>. clerics win games......
that's just a perma not attacking and running in circles. they can still do that if they want, but that has nothing to do with actual balance. that's just relying on a tab mechanic and stealth refills.
So mr Kissass whish Trs is your main?
Your tries to prove that some 10kgs silly Cw can challange the Trs dominace is so pathetic it falls on deaf ears.
If you feel so mighty and dandy and are delusional enough to think you are the man the myth the legend that manage to withstand the might of the new Trs with you impressive 10k gs cw we can arange some fights in iwd and you can show you MIGHTY spellcasting wounderboy.
I am sure there are many eager to learn from you wisdom.....
never bothered to get boons on that character since i cared more for my other classes. regardless, i don't do open pvp where pets/ganking is abundant.
also, part of how i catch a rogue is the indicator that they are on a node which does not exist in open pvp. if you can't dodge a 1-shot or control them back with that much of a warning, then there is no help for you. the other advantage is that i don't even have to look for an invisible rogue since they now have to enter melee range to do anything to me. as such, i can just start up a steal time and ruin their only chance of hitting me with a lashing blade. sabs take more time, but they can't avoid my controls forever.
lastly, so many people don't know how vulnerable a rogue is when their encounters miss. a rogue that can't land a lashing, smoke bomb, or dazing strike from stealth and even afterwards are extremely fragile to their enemies. it's something i learned in module 2 when wizards did it to my rogue when i was still an executioner.
ps: agreeing with someone doesn't make me their pet. it's an actual fact since i do main a rogue and know how they fight. it's VERY simple to counter them since every last one of them act in such a straightforward and honest manner.
I guess you missed the threads where both of us discussed parts of the current TR that are, in fact, 'broken'? Too busy foaming at the mouth?
And then when someone calls you out on your BS hyperbole you immediately launch into an Ad Hominem attack. :rolleyes:
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
he said that he didn't he had help then said he soloed them, and then said he had help again. He is being inconsistent. Anyway I think(don't have prove) that his tr's were much more capable than the other trs on their team and they could have been the ones to make those tr's near useless, especially if he had 2 hrs and 2trs all with insane scores. from what i saw from his picture, he got carried.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
More or less true but I bet ya that against a sw they can win if not all at least some and they would stay alive against gf for sure,,,
But his argument is that he can manage Trs on his 10 k gs cw because he cant *play so good.....
AFAIK, both can be deflected, or at least that is my experience on my TR, both on the receiving end and on the giving one.
Does anyone want to test this Villain's Menace stuff with me? I have IWD on my GF, and would love to make a bug thread if I could get a Scoundrel to throw some CoS at me for a while.
Since this thread has become something of a he-said-she-said, how about we refocus and try to look at what could or could not be used to make people okay with Scoundrel as it stands.
Would increasing the internal CD of Concussive Strike in PvP to maybe 7.5 seconds work well enough? How about combining that with a reduction of DHS's duration? If that's not good enough, what more do people want?
that was just the rarest match in which i didn't die. i do die to ganks and when i forget to activate shield (sometimes i feel like it goes off on it's own and leaves me defenseless when i don't expect it)
what happens in most of my matches is similar to that though. i outright deny rogues their high kill:death ratios due to not dying and controlling them to death. like i said, they can't do much if they miss every encounter they throw at me.
or are you saying that you have never been able to dodge a rogue's attacks from stealth?
perfectly fine with me as long as it's not a global daze icd
i told you b4 that i can solo, but i am specced for support.
their scores were that high because i controlled mostly everyone they killed. if not for that, it would not be so lopsided. in fact, the order people die in during my matches usually follow whoever i target. other thing is that i don't camp the enemy spawn or their home node, so i stay at mid while they rack up points (probably lost out on a dozen or so assists from that).
it's like trying to measure healing done in pvp or benefits of cleric buffs in pve. it's impossible without a video.
DHS isn't a particular issue for Scoundrels but it probably does need a tone down. Either return it to the Mod 4 version (half the duration, 10% more damage) or leave the damage as is and go for a 10s duration (much smaller damage buff than current version).
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
6s ICD with a 2s duration is about the best compromise. Changed from a theoretical 50% uptime, to a 33% uptime.
Anything less than 2s in duration is unacceptable. We had the shorter duration in the very first preview version. People laughed about it, and would say, "What was that? Was that lag?" The effect would proc and then go away before you even noticed the CC bar at the bottom of the screen. In testings, people would use to think they either got a short glitch or a lag. They don't even notice that it was a CC.
Personally I support the "same damage, shorter duration" solution, in which case you're given a choice.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I'd grudgingly support a 6s ICD if the reduction in duration was for players only so that in PvE the uptime dropped from 60% to 50%. But even that is an unnecessary nerf to PvE Scoundrels.
DPS of DHS was increased to compensate for stealth drain. In PvE this is not excessive as mobs tend to die before DHS can tick for the full duration anyway. The one exception is bosses, where setting up a crit DHS bleed is one of the few ways a Scoundrel can do any noticeable DPS against CC immune targets. As long as the duration stays at around 10s or so this is still a DPS boost and should work. Anything shorter and DHS gets a nerf from the original version which was hardly OP.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Lets all (scoundrel TRs) reset and use saboteurs builds, as many players annoyed by stuns said it is better to dodge from stealthed (all the time) enemy than see your enemy and allow him to stun you! We really need to consider ourselfs as threat to balance by using scoundrel tree and use more balanced tree (according to whining community) which saboteur clearly is.
Really, it's better to dodge attacks from invisible source, that never reveals itself, than having a chance to fight back right? Right?
Not much difference tbh. You're either dazed and unable to do anything or you're chasing shadows the moment daze ends.
So your big logic & analysis on just under what terms TRs are OP, is simply based on the fact that you don't like people with lower GS than you are doing better than you in kills and deaths.
Wow. Such genius. :rolleyes:
Except there is no "fact" that TRs are broken. These anti-TR sentiments are simply a bunch of jumbled up non-sense which even contradict each other, that ranges between people who;
(a) make stories up
(b) argue a physically/systematically impossible things are happening
(c) misreads their own combat logs and claim TRs do 180k damage with one at-will
(d) can't tell difference between paths and just mix them up to create an imaginary invincible TR
(e) build characters with same HP as we used to have 12 months ago and then whine about being 1-shot
(f) or all other sorts of bullshi* which isn't even mentioning.
Currently there is ONE broken path among three, alongside a 2~3 powers that need revision. Other traits might need minor reworks as well, but almost all the issues people whine here about can be avoided through either skill, or adequate preparation. For exmaple, how many of you fekkin' whiners prepare Oghma's Token of Free Movement when you see a Scoundrel around? (Which, in all likelihood most of the whiners can't even tell the difference between Scoundrels and Sabs...)
What, you don't want to spend AD or time and effort getting an equipment/setting just for countering one TR? Ever stop and think carefully its that kind of lousy, sloppy, and lazy attitude which makes you lose everytime? All the more merry-ding irony being that most whiners on these boards don't even correctly point out what is OP and needs to be nerfed. They still whine about one-shot LBs which is simply an indicator of low skill level PvP with inadequate level of preparation with non-optimal builds.
This ain't no democracy. The imaginary TR that stays permastealth all the while permadazing and then one-shots people around don't exist no matter how often you repeat the bullshi*.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'