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Scoundrel needs serious overhaul
mehguy138
Member Posts: 1,803 Arc User
Skullcracker: Every 15 seconds you gain Skullcracker. While you have Skullcracker your next attack Dazes the target for 4 seconds. While a target is affected by Skullcracker your attacks will extend the Daze on the target by .5 seconds, up to a maximum of 6 seconds. You deal 25% increased damage to targets affected by Skullcracker and also grants 25% increased move speed.
4 seconds is way too long for an effect that procs off any encounter considering that you can daze your target before that with one critical cloud of steel hit. This should be cut in half for players especially when it's duration can be prolonged even further.
Deft Strike used out of stealth gives zero counterplay. It silences you for 2 seconds and basically roots you in place allowing TR to easily land Duelist's Flurry.
Being CC'd 90% of fight is not fun. Being unable to strike back is depressing. This is way worse then permastealth, because you can't dodge or even move to avoid attacks. Remember why CW's CC got nerfed? You just brought the freezing nightmare back, but you've given it to the worst possible class.
OR
Suggestion: Give people a 3 second "Daze Immunity" just like CW's Chill Immunity.
4 seconds is way too long for an effect that procs off any encounter considering that you can daze your target before that with one critical cloud of steel hit. This should be cut in half for players especially when it's duration can be prolonged even further.
Deft Strike used out of stealth gives zero counterplay. It silences you for 2 seconds and basically roots you in place allowing TR to easily land Duelist's Flurry.
Being CC'd 90% of fight is not fun. Being unable to strike back is depressing. This is way worse then permastealth, because you can't dodge or even move to avoid attacks. Remember why CW's CC got nerfed? You just brought the freezing nightmare back, but you've given it to the worst possible class.
OR
Suggestion: Give people a 3 second "Daze Immunity" just like CW's Chill Immunity.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Post edited by mehguy138 on
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deft strike is a nice combo with it but it's not necessary. i can catch all but hunters without the slow with my flurry which is the result of speeding up flurry animations and giving us another 25% run speed.
even if changed, it can simply be followed up with a dazing strike or smoke bomb to guarantee a flurry. i personally just use 2 dazing encounters so i never benefit from skullcracker's daze in the 1st place.
ps: wizards can still cc spam anyone but gwf's. they just can't stack chill for 3 seconds after freezing someone but that doesn't stop them from using 3-4 different cc powers. quite frankly, the change simply stops non-oppressors from acting like a cc build when they sacrificed it for damage.
But there's one little thing that makes a big difference - CWs don't have stealth.
scoundrels don't really benefit from stealth. in fact, it's counter-productive when we can do so much more while visible. some builds use stealth but it's moreso stalling tactics than fully utilizing our daze + flurry potential.
CWs have way more chain CC potential and can do it at greater range. All I see here is yet another nerf thread for TR.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Seems like many CWs are forgetting that they shouldn't go into heat of PvP battle head on and they're primary targets of TRs (low DR makes them perfect targets)
actually Stealth-Deft-Shadow-Stealth-Dazing makes deadly combo (unless Deft is dodged which kills that combo and puts TR into defense unless that TR is high HP, CC resist, DR one)
a little weird for a combo since it sacrifices both paragon encounters. i figured a dazing
> lashing blade was the best stealth combo we have since we get a +50% damage bonus after dazing strike.
but i think the op meant us using stealth like a perma rather than for a quick boost to our encounters
Was there a single post where you didn't write this?
I use Deft from stealth (for longer range and crit) and Dazing (and since it hits like a truck from stealth hence Shadow) instead of lashing since lashing still has hell of a CD and doesn't hit that much harder (sure it can hit for 20k+ from stealth but if you encounter enemy with high DR you'll hit for 6-10k max and be left with 16s CD while DS has 7-8 sec CD).
Of course Deft-Stealth-Lashing-Dazing may also be a good combo but I encountered too many high DR, HP people in PvP to not use 100% crit from stealth (Shadow) and additional Daze (strike).
Also I though OP may be referring to perma-scoundrels (same story with perma-exec) since indeed they're annoying (but that's have nothing to do with scoundrel path cap stone)
No, I'm referring to exactly scoundrel capstone and Concussive Strikes interaction. They offer too much CC combined with damage and utility.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
You meant something different?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
You better get used to them because frankly the cws in pvp plays in another universe then the Trs that been raised to God status.
I am getting hit with 40k+ hits on my gwf from nowhere and there is no recovery from that against the Trs.
You see the 20-0 in every game from some average Trs nowdays and even if some cw can lay the hurt on ya for sure its not even comperable to the Trs (like wk sab etc).
And as the Tr community seem to thrive on abusing the worst builds to walk as Gods in pvp my guess is that when the nerf hammer drops it will hurt like a madd---fakk---- much to the doing of the Tr community themselfs......
Stop acting like a moron, stealth is an ultimate defense tool, you can't fight what you can't see as well as defend against something you don't see coming. You may cry all day long that your gameplay isn't based around stealth, but the fact is - you still have it.
TRs were built around stealth. Now, they have all the tools to fight outside of it, but their tab mechanics is still there.
Don't even compare CW's CC to TR's, the former lasts less then 2 seconds because Orb of Imposition was nerfed. To lock a target down for 5 seconds you have to slot all CC powers and build Oppressor, but you'll lose your damage. TR not only gets CC, but 50% more damage to controlled targets.
Saboteur has no CC, Executioner has no defense. Scoundrel has no weakness.
Never hitted anyone for 40k, my max was 20k from LB on CW, maybe that was one of thoose 22k+ with 9k power TR? But I was hit for 32k from intimidation so...
You see 20-0 TRs in every game, I see GWFs, HRs and CWs with 20-0, 30-0 in almost every game (no but seriously they usually hit 10kdr with 20-30 kills). TR now got new ways to defend himself; more deflect from dex (which was given to everyone btw) and 1 more dodge roll (which in some builds turns into nice 4-5 dodges) so yeah... TR can dodge more often now (only movement speed seems weird and I didn't figured out where it came from)
When the nerf hammer will hit scoundrel and exec the most you'll see increased number of perma stealth TRs that will hit you with LB and remain in stealth, because I can feel that part of TR community has enough of "trying" to be combat TR and will just gonna utilize its class feature (stealth)
I'm getting confused; you're talking about stealth, TR in general or scoundrel path? Because it starts to seem like "TR is in stealth all the time, I'm dazed and shadow of demise hits me!" thread.
Also if you're encountering perma-scoundrel then you've hit the wrong bucket mate, combat TRs (pure scoundrels) use stealth only to get 100% crit, nothing more (or attack by surprise).
If you have little to no cc resist then you'll be stunned for full duration of TRs daze, same with CWs cc (TR will be controlled for full duration unless he has cc resist), more so: TR has to build scoundrel to have thoose dazes and need to slot 2 dazing encounters (dazing strike and smoke bomb) + 1 that he'll use as skullcracker proc and if your CW cc lasts 5 seconds with 4 controlling encounters (like CW has any other) then your build is definitely not about CC.
TR gets +25% to controlled targets and +25% to targets affected by skullcracker and since usually that's the same target then yea, it's +50% but what did you expect from single target dps? To hit you with one mediocre encounter with no serious capstones?
I've met players that had no problem with my scoundrel path, bah, they could even kill it without problem or fear of being dazed.
Seems to me people are not prepared for PvP with combat TRs..... adapt or die
Lmao xD we have more CC than CW's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B6nBG89yWI&feature=youtu.be
Suggestion: Give people a 3 second "Daze Immunity" just like CW's Chill Immunity.
Then you dont pvp much it happens every single day and think there is some links from nez about it even.
There is a major differance in a bad team you see the same cw and even hr go negative in kills while the tr still rank up 10-0 in a badly loosing team.
*the tr go new ways to defend himself* this made me laugh aloud and then shuckle some even,,, I cant even take this statement seriously...
When the nerf hammer hits the Trs they prolly will go into hide because lashing is allready hitting way to hard and if things go accordingly to the will of the community its bye bye perma (cant say i would cry over that for sure).
The Trs right now dominate pvp to the extent that it makes the *roar* gwf seem symphatic and that even some tries to defend this redicules bs is a proof how far the Tr community has sunk.....
u forgot about deflect. In m5 u cant control TR....
I think devs up 1-2 classes every module for more money:)
Added to the OP.
depends on build. not many even stack it and even less have 55-60% like i do. however, a bigger pain to a wizard will probably be an elven battle enchant as that reduces a huge amount of control duration at just a lesser. add in the halfling racial bonus from the pure pvp builds and it gets ridiculous.
will kinda break scoundrels since daze is meant to be used consecutively in order to catch people.
concussive strikes are useful to either quickly approach someone to hit with dazing or to extend a daze slightly although most of the time it coincides with the original daze itself if it criticals. skullcracker being every 15 seconds is generally only gonna boost at-will dps for builds that 2 dazes for the highest hindering potential.
will also make smoke bomb useless if people can just waltz into it without an immunity skill. especially since dazing strike has a 7-8 second cooldown and lasts 4 seconds.
also, chill immunity is not on-par with daze immunity. a lot of rogue abilities share daze but none of a wizards encounters will fail if their chill mechanic is on cooldown.
we sacrificed our tab mechanic in general. we can't use it like the other 2 paths. relying on stealth as a scoundrel is just trying to be a semi-perma that is not using encounters to daze in the 1st place but instead does gloaming cut for a short critical daze every 5 seconds.
or are you saying that you would rather have 3 encounters?
yeah, kinda the only reason why i don't stick with lashing for long outside of playing around. that cooldown is just not something i like and especially since i need shadow strike to use it more than once.
Dazing immunity is off the shelf since that's the only kind of CC TR has (it would be like CC immunity for others after being CC'd by CW), but it seems like Concussive strikes seems to be problem for some reason (2.5 seconds, I saw people who didn't even blinked and that daze was off).
I would rather increase concussive strikes CD on target to 8 (7.5) seconds from 5 seconds. Or give it 15/30/45/60/75% to activate on at-wills
Truth be told that won't please anyone, bah I don't belive anything will please people asking for nerf until class they desire to nerf would be put into garbage bin, because there will be always another thing to whine about.
PS pandora1x this was quite bad HR you were sparring, I mean who stays near spot where TR went into stealth? He should use maruders escape the moment you went invisible and buff himself with fox&boar (even if you would hit first strike he would be out of range for next attacks and you would use part of stealth for that attack already) and then attack when you would be out of stealth.
Stealth or 4th encounter? Is this even a question?
He was dazed 80% of the fight.
EDIT: What do you do when GWF enters unstoppable? Stay around? What do you do when GF blocks every attack? Keep attacking from the front?
No, you run away from GWF in his upgraded state and try to flank GF to break his defense. Same goes to "what should you do" when TR enters stealth -> you gain as much distance from that spot as possible
you kinda missed the point, but you seem obsessed with stealth so meh
strong controls regardless of wizard build or your 4th encounter slot
^was the point i made
40k LB doesn't come out of Scoundrel TRs where I play. Even with P Vorp, the highest that I would hit right now is 24k average. If you're getting hit by a Scoundrel for 40k, you're in the wrong league. Go stand by your premade's DC; they completely counter Scoundrels since the Scoundrek's burst is on a 15-second cooldown.
Concerning TR vs CW or HR: HR are generally super bad at PvP. CWs are the same. Once they learn how to play, then they can completely wreck my Scoundrel's face: I've been caught by the CW's force-choke quite a few times and murdered before my feet hit the ground, from stealth. I've been grappled to the ground and murdered before I could move, from stealth. It's quite possible to kill a Scoundrel, you just have to get them in their 15-second cooldown window or maybe get some CC reduction.
But, TRs are supposed to counter CWs and HRs. Those are the squishy classes, and if a TR can't kill them, then a TR can't kill anything.
I could see Concussive Strikes getting a PvP nerf; changing the daze to only happen once every 8 seconds seems like a good nerf.
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
...because many HR players still think they'll PWN any TR once they're able to target it and start landing DoTs and melee strikes. Ofcourse, by doing that, they're simply giving Scoundrels easier targets to hit with. The HR should have stealthed or bought distance as much as possible. When that happens, the TR doesn't have a target until his stealth runs out. The TR truns visible, and in all likelihood his next attack is going to be SS, to try and go back in stealth -- except this SS is going to proc Skull Cracker.
So, for the next 15s, you're ready to retaliate because:
(1) The TR just used his SS -- he ain't gonna be using it for the next 13~16s
(2) The TR just procced his SC with SS -- he ain't going to be able to long-daze for the next 15s
(3) The TR just went into stealth -- in the next 10s his stealth is going to run out. When it runs out, he doesn't have SS for another 3~4s, he doesn't have SC proc for another 5s. So what he is going to do, is wait out the full stealth duration with minimal amount of attacks, and then gonna land a Dazing Strike when stealth is about to land, to buy some time until he can get SS back.
So naturally, this timing is your moment to retaliate. If you have CC breakers, like a GWF, then get it ready to activate when 6~7 seconds of stealth has past, because he is coming with a Dazing Strike next. If you don't, get an Oghma's and get ready to use it... and then hit the TR with as much as you have when he uses Dazing Strike.
Ofcourse, the much more easier way of handling a Scoundrel, is to simply bring a friend.
Why risk a 1vs1 against something that has a clear advantage over you in a 1vs1 situation? You're fighting the way HE wants, when you do that.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'