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  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    beatannier wrote: »
    HV was used mainly before glyphs (few CWs was using other sets or 2/2).
    It has lower stats than draconic / black ice gears, its bonus sucks since we got artifact equipments and has no glyphs.

    Its bonus steals 450 defense from opponents (I assume you get 3 stacks soon), but only from control powers.
    Stealing defense decreases their summary mitigation, so its like you had 450 armor pen (same result).
    Stolen defense is really low at pvp as you don`t debuff many opponents and cant have all 3 stacks on them the most time.
    In PvE, you usually dont need this defense. If you die anyway, you should consider why and its not because of too few defense.

    Glyphs gives you insane bonus (its 16% output dps in my case).
    Using draconic, ability to cast the spells 9% often for all the team looks much better than 450 Armor pen and a little defense bonus. Summary, it gives you more hp from life steal thanks to these additional strikes than you save from the stolen defense.
    Using black ice, you get really nice stats buff (about 1k gs summary (avg)) and get much, much more defense in pvp from tenacity than from the stolen defense from HV.

    Summary, glyphs plus the set bonuses are much better both for pvp and pve in T3 sets than in HV nowadays.
    I made some calculatons some time ago and here is a spreadsheet compating HV, draconic and black ice (T3, corrupted, but puriefied has similiar stats): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qZcm-8oLzSdJ2X7h5rHLeEM9WDSSW5HyLApRQazCzNI/edit?usp=sharing

    Even devs looks like fotgot the T2 sets (like HV), not allowing to reinforce the T2 set gloves anymore by old way.
    Its my opinion about the HV set. Its bonuses is just too weak in comparation to glyphs, additional stats and better bonuses from describbed sets. But again, its only my opinion. I see many CW still using HV sets and many using draconic / Black ice sets. It`s about 30%/30%/30% right now.

    Hey, first of all, I appreciate the hard work here! Nice spreadsheet too.

    The only flaw in this reasoning is that you are comparing PERSONAL damage. Even SW is very close to HV in terms of personal damage (maybe even higher).

    Also, when i tested draconic my teammated didn't notice a huge difference, which i take at their word. It could matter more or less depending on the situation

    The reason HV is BIS for PvE is because it is a team DPS bonus. That is EVERYONE does more damage. In BI or Draconic, the buffs of the glyphs, while very powerful, are not boosting your team DPS as much as HV.

    That's why we are using HV at the moment. Now for solo play, I actually switch to Purified for difficult situations. I suspect corrupted is good for solo too, but I can't get a second pair of gloves :'(
  • kieranmtornkieranmtorn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    For Solo play I normally stick with my HV, if you open with Steal Time (or COI/CS + Steal Time), generally all that's left is mopping up. Steal Time puts 3 stacks on of the HV debuff on the mob and hits like a truck (Feated Renegade), plus stuns. 3 stacks of the HV debuff is about 30% more damage, so my BI armor stays put away, since it can't match it (stats I can get anywhere, a good set effect is hard to come by).

    Also I don't particularly like paying upkeep on BI armor or Glyphs, so they have an additional cost of operation.
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    For Solo play I normally stick with my HV, if you open with Steal Time (or COI/CS + Steal Time), generally all that's left is mopping up. Steal Time puts 3 stacks on of the HV debuff on the mob and hits like a truck (Feated Renegade), plus stuns. 3 stacks of the HV debuff is about 30% more damage, so my BI armor stays put away, since it can't match it (stats I can get anywhere, a good set effect is hard to come by).

    Also I don't particularly like paying upkeep on BI armor or Glyphs, so they have an additional cost of operation.

    honestly, i am nuking everything so bad, i stick with HV cause lazy. Any team content it's likely BIS, and solo content is very easy.
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    beatannier wrote: »
    HV was used mainly before glyphs (few CWs was using other sets or 2/2).
    It has lower stats than draconic / black ice gears, its bonus sucks since we got artifact equipments and has no glyphs.

    Its bonus steals 450 defense from opponents (I assume you get 3 stacks soon), but only from control powers.
    Stealing defense decreases their summary mitigation, so its like you had 450 armor pen (same result).
    Stolen defense is really low at pvp as you don`t debuff many opponents and cant have all 3 stacks on them the most time.
    In PvE, you usually dont need this defense. If you die anyway, you should consider why and its not because of too few defense.

    Glyphs gives you insane bonus (its 16% output dps in my case).
    Using draconic, ability to cast the spells 9% often for all the team looks much better than 450 Armor pen and a little defense bonus. Summary, it gives you more hp from life steal thanks to these additional strikes than you save from the stolen defense.
    Using black ice, you get really nice stats buff (about 1k gs summary (avg)) and get much, much more defense in pvp from tenacity than from the stolen defense from HV.

    Summary, glyphs plus the set bonuses are much better both for pvp and pve in T3 sets than in HV nowadays.
    I made some calculatons some time ago and here is a spreadsheet compating HV, draconic and black ice (T3, corrupted, but puriefied has similiar stats): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qZcm-8oLzSdJ2X7h5rHLeEM9WDSSW5HyLApRQazCzNI/edit?usp=sharing

    Even devs looks like fotgot the T2 sets (like HV), not allowing to reinforce the T2 set gloves anymore by old way.
    Its my opinion about the HV set. Its bonuses is just too weak in comparation to glyphs, additional stats and better bonuses from describbed sets. But again, its only my opinion. I see many CW still using HV sets and many using draconic / Black ice sets. It`s about 30%/30%/30% right now.

    You seem to have completely missed that the High Vizier set increases the damage enemies take by 10% per stack. It is not at all the same as armor penetration. It is a straight damage boost of up to 30% for all allies attacking the enemy. That easily dwarfs a 16% increase in personal damage.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • beatannierbeatannier Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 692 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    You seem to have completely missed that the High Vizier set increases the damage enemies take by 10% per stack.
    Repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth.

    High Vizier Bonus:
    Set 2: Equip: +450 Recovery
    Set 4: Your Control Powers steal 450 Defense from your target, increasing your Defense by that amount.
    No a single word about percents.

    I know some blogger told it was about 10% and this statement was repeated many, many times, but this 10% was a result of calculation made on a specific set on a specific target (dummies I bet).

    But 450 is 450. No matter if it is an ignore from AP or decresed a defense value. Result is same: Opponents damage resistance will be lower by 450.

    Check it yourself. There are different dummies levels in different cities. ACT can be a helping hand. Good luck!




    PS Teammates benefits from HV only if their Armor pen is lower, than opponents damage resistance.
    In practic, how many times you party with somebody with AP lower than 2450? Or lower than 2000 to provide a full benefits?

    As I told, since we got glyphs, that red gives us +800 Armor Pen, almost everybody meats damage resistance cap, so benefit from HV ends on Bonus defence to the wearer only as almost nobody has under 1200 armor pen.
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    beatannier wrote: »
    Repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth.

    High Vizier Bonus:
    No a single word about percents.

    I know some blogger told it was about 10% and this statement was repeated many, many times, but this 10% was a result of calculation made on a specific set on a specific target (dummies I bet).

    But 450 is 450. No matter if it is an ignore from AP or decresed a defense value. Result is same: Opponents damage resistance will be lower by 450.

    Check it yourself. There are different dummies levels in different cities. ACT can be a helping hand. Good luck!

    I have checked it myself. Many, many, many times.

    Fire up ACT, equip a High Vizier set, and run around killing things for a bit. Check ACT. You'll see that there is a column called "Effectiveness." Enemies with one stack of High Vizer on them will register 110% effectiveness. Two: 120%. Three: 130%. Those damage hits will be multiplied accordingly. That's the difference between the "Base Damage" and the "Damage" categories.

    Here's Steal Time cast on a test dummy without a High Vizier set:

    wlr449.jpg

    Here's Steal Time on a test dummy with the High Vizier set:

    724r9g.jpg

    The damage taken by the dummy is 30% higher because of the 130% "Effectiveness." And everyone's attacks on that dummy will be 30% higher for around four seconds. It blows every other armor set out of the water for that reason.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    beatannier wrote: »
    Repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth.

    High Vizier Bonus:
    No a single word about percents.

    I know some blogger told it was about 10% and this statement was repeated many, many times, but this 10% was a result of calculation made on a specific set on a specific target (dummies I bet).

    But 450 is 450. No matter if it is an ignore from AP or decresed a defense value. Result is same: Opponents damage resistance will be lower by 450.

    Check it yourself. There are different dummies levels in different cities. ACT can be a helping hand. Good luck!




    PS Teammates benefits from HV only if their Armor pen is lower, than opponents damage resistance.
    In practic, how many times you party with somebody with AP lower than 2450? Or lower than 2000 to provide a full benefits?

    As I told, since we got glyphs, that red gives us +800 Armor Pen, almost everybody meats damage resistance cap, so benefit from HV ends on Bonus defence to the wearer only as almost nobody has under 1200 armor pen.

    As explained many times before, the tool tip is accurate for players.

    Mobs don't have a defense stat, so when it says "reduces defense by XXXX" there is nothing to reduce.

    So the game counts all these kind of effects as damage bonuses and not as defensive penalties.

    yes, it is completely different than armor pen.

    So on a player a HV stack is -450 defense
    on a mob it is 10% damage bonus to everything.

    That's how it works.

    Also, tooltips are often misleading in this game. Don't assume the obvious with them.
  • beatannierbeatannier Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 692 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I get ~130% on dummies in Black Ice Set too: //oi59.tinypic.com/2lcu5gy.jpg
    30% from HV is just a result of calculation made on a specific set on a specific target (exactly CW on dummies). Here and now. No HV defense steal benefit in damage as we both have over 2450 AP.
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    beatannier wrote: »
    I get ~130% on dummies in Black Ice Set too: //oi59.tinypic.com/2lcu5gy.jpg
    30% from HV is just a result of calculation made on a specific set on a specific target (exactly CW on dummies). Here and now. No HV defense steal benefit in damage as we both have over 2450 AP.

    Those debuffs are from Swath of Destruction and your Plaguefire enchantment. Equipping High Vizier will give you ANOTHER 30%.

    Edit:

    If you think "effectiveness" comes from Armor Penetration you're just badly, badly misinformed about the game mechanics. Please familiarize yourself with this document:

    http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/382-kaelac%E2%80%99s-guide-to-damage-tenacity-reisistance-and-debuffs-in-neverwinter/

    It's a great way to understand how the game calculates things so you don't assert things that are plainly incorrect.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • beatannierbeatannier Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 692 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    beatannier wrote: »
    I know some blogger told it was about 10% and this statement was repeated many, many times, but this 10% was a result of calculation made on a specific set on a specific target (dummies I bet).
    You are quoting exactly this infamous entry from the blogger I was speaking about.

    I have Greater plague enchantment (rank 10) and it gives 3 times 15% defense debuff. It is a 45% total (15% more already).

    SOD makes 15% debuff for everybody + increases 45% damage made by smolder. It is 60% right now.
    Also, Arcane mastery gives me +15%, bitter cold +5% to everybody, chaotic fury +30% (at 1/3 time, I count it as 10% avg), finally Combucsive Action increases damage done by both Smolder and Fire by another 18%. It can`t be ~30% by any of these combinations. ~30% is just an ignored amount of damage resistance that these dummies has, not damage bonus.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    chemboy613 wrote: »
    That's why we are using HV at the moment. Now for solo play, I actually switch to Purified for difficult situations. I suspect corrupted is good for solo too, but I can't get a second pair of gloves :'(

    Corrupted is great for regular solo, but I would guess still too squishy for the stuff you've done in your Purified set.

    I still don't have HV gloves! So I use the Corrupt BI set for harder stuff and switch to a mix of the HV and Draconic pieces I do have to save on upkeep costs for cakewalk stuff. The drop in performance on the mixed set is noticeable enough to annoy me though. I need to run Karru more....
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    Neverwinter Census 2017

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  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    beatannier wrote: »
    I get ~130% on dummies in Black Ice Set too: //oi59.tinypic.com/2lcu5gy.jpg
    30% from HV is just a result of calculation made on a specific set on a specific target (exactly CW on dummies). Here and now. No HV defense steal benefit in damage as we both have over 2450 AP.

    My friend, you are severely misinformed.
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Corrupted is great for regular solo, but I would guess still too squishy for the stuff you've done in your Purified set.

    I still don't have HV gloves! So I use the Corrupt BI set for harder stuff and switch to a mix of the HV and Draconic pieces I do have to save on upkeep costs for cakewalk stuff. The drop in performance on the mixed set is noticeable enough to annoy me though. I need to run Karru more....

    You should get your HV gloves! Karru is easily soloable too!

    I would love to test corrupted but no gloves :3 they need to adjust that drop rate to something reasonable :3
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    beatannier wrote: »
    You are quoting exactly this infamous entry from the blogger I was speaking about.

    I have Greater plague enchantment (rank 10) and it gives 3 times 15% defense debuff. It is a 45% total (15% more already).

    SOD makes 15% debuff for everybody + increases 45% damage made by smolder. It is 60% right now.
    Also, Arcane mastery gives me +15%, bitter cold +5% to everybody, chaotic fury +30% (at 1/3 time, I count it as 10% avg), finally Combucsive Action increases damage done by both Smolder and Fire by another 18%. It can`t be ~30% by any of these combinations. ~30% is just an ignored amount of damage resistance that these dummies has, not damage bonus.

    You still just don't understand what you're talking about. Chem already pointed this out to you: enemies do not have Defense. Only players have a stat called Defense. Because enemies do not have Defense game developers had to come up with a ways to make enchantments and set bonuses that affect defense useful on PvE enemies. These ways are not in the description. Greater Plague Fire enchantments debuff enemies 3% per stack. Maximum three stacks (9%max). You can test this yourself. Unequip Swath of destruction and attack a dummy. The max Effectiveness ACT will show will be 9%. Swath of Destruction grants 15% debuff. So now you are at a max of 124% effectiveness. However, if you are attacking rapidly the Swath of Destruction debuff will sometimes be applied twice. That makes your total effectiveness slightly above 124%.

    Arcane Mastery, Bitter Cold, Chaotic Fury and other buffs are factored into the base damage of your spells. Only debuffs are part of the "effectiveness" column.

    All of this has nothing, nothing at all to do with Armor Penetration. Take your own advice and test these things out individually yourself. You'll get the same results. It is obvious that you have not tested the High Vizier set in any way, shape, or form. Perhaps you should before you try to speak authoritatively on how it functions.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • beatannierbeatannier Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 692 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    Greater Plague Fire enchantments debuff enemies 3% per stack. Maximum three stacks (9%max).
    Plague Fire This enchant comes only from Nightmare Lockboxes. It does not have a perfect rank.
    Lesser +3.5% Fire damage. Burn for 1.2% damage per second for 3s and reduce def by 5%, can be stacked 3 times.
    Normal +5.5% Fire damage. Burn for 1.8% damage per second for 3s and reduce def by 10%, can be stacked 3 times.
    Greater +7.5% Fire damage. Burn for 2.5% damage per second for 3s and reduce def by 15%, can be stacked 3 times.
    Yeah. You know everything better than tooltips, logs and official wiki.
    You know even That before glyphs I was wearing HV set for over half year making a lot of ACT tests… Wait… No! I wasn`t:
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    It is obvious that you have not tested the High Vizier set in any way, shape, or form.
    You made me sure not to discuss with you anymore. EOT.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Tooltips in this game are not reliable at all. They tend to contain errors, be phrased in misleading ways, or at least not give the whole story. It's why players have to test so much themselves, because we can't trust what the tooltips say at all.

    The "official" wiki is player-maintained and mostly copied from tooltips.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Eh. I tried. You can lead a horse to water...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    beatannier wrote: »
    Yeah. You know everything better than tooltips, logs and official wiki.
    You know even That before glyphs I was wearing HV set for over half year making a lot of ACT tests… Wait… No! I wasn`t:You made me sure not to discuss with you anymore. EOT.

    For Plaguefire/Terror echants the coversion is 5% defense = 1% damage boost.

    Wiki is outdated.

    Tooltips are often vague or misleading.

    Armor pen works against the mob's damage resistance stat, which maxes at 24%.

    Mobs don't have defense stat, so anything that effect defense in tooltip is damage boost on mobs.

    That's the simple truth. It isn't complicated.
  • veshorokveshorok Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 127 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    omg..you're still there..
    maybe there are some better places for theorycrafting battles?
    anyone remember the OP? anyone?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Lol how true. I guess it's not a debate because we already know how HV works XD
  • beatannierbeatannier Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 692 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    You say that:
    1. Mobs have no defense (defense = 0)
      chemboy613 wrote: »
      Mobs don't have defense stat, so anything that effect defense in tooltip is damage boost on mobs.
    2. Stealing 450 defense from mobs (defense = -450) provides +10% damage (so -45 defense = +1% damage)
      chemboy613 wrote: »
      So on a player a HV stack is -450 defense
      on a mob it is 10% damage bonus to everything.
    3. Stealing 5% defense (from 0, so defense is -5%) provides +1% damage (so -5% defense = +1% damage)
      chemboy613 wrote: »
      5% defense = 1% damage boost.

    So if:
    1. -45 defense = +1% damage
    2. -5% defense = +1% damage

    Then:
    1. -5% defense = -45 defense /*(-20)
    2. 100% defense = 900 defense

    But your primaly statement was that mobs have no defense, after a simple math it is 900 defense.

    0 ≠ 900
    1. This statement is false.
    2. New Mission; Refuse this mission.
    3. Does a set of every set contain itself?
  • two30two30 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,168 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The "official" wiki is player-maintained and mostly copied from tooltips.

    Those scare quotes are mean! The wiki is definitely official. It's just neglected even more than the Foundry.

    Sometimes I consider replacing the whole wiki with pictures of otters and timing how long it would take anyone to notice.
    Neverwinter Tools for evaluating boons, mounts, dyes, etc.
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    beatannier wrote: »
    You say that:
    1. Mobs have no defense (defense = 0)
    2. Stealing 450 defense from mobs (defense = -450) provides +10% damage (so -45 defense = +1% damage)
    3. Stealing 5% defense (from 0, so defense is -5%) provides +1% damage (so -5% defense = +1% damage)

    So if:
    1. -45 defense = +1% damage
    2. -5% defense = +1% damage

    Then:
    1. -5% defense = -45 defense /*(-20)
    2. 100% defense = 900 defense

    But your primaly statement was that mobs have no defense, after a simple math it is 900 defense.

    0 ≠ 900
    1. This statement is false.
    2. New Mission; Refuse this mission.
    3. Does a set of every set contain itself?

    Your conclusion rests on the assumption that defense maps to damage resistance in a linear y=mx+b manner. It does not. So your analysis is incorrect.

    There is a major linguistic problem going on in this discussion. When I and Chem talk about "defense" we are referring to the stat in your character sheet called "defense" which grants your character damage resistance according to the curve here:

    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj

    What you are calling "defense" is not the same thing. Enemies do not have some linear "defense" category that High Vizier acts on. What enemies have is a base level of damage resistance (up to 24%). High Vizier does not act on that--Armor Penetration does. Instead High Vizier is just a damage multiplier on all attacks to that enemy.

    Enemies do not have "defense" in the way you, I and people you will meet in PvP have "defense."
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    beatannier wrote: »
    You say that:
    1. Mobs have no defense (defense = 0)
    2. Stealing 450 defense from mobs (defense = -450) provides +10% damage (so -45 defense = +1% damage)
    3. Stealing 5% defense (from 0, so defense is -5%) provides +1% damage (so -5% defense = +1% damage)

    So if:
    1. -45 defense = +1% damage
    2. -5% defense = +1% damage

    Then:
    1. -5% defense = -45 defense /*(-20)
    2. 100% defense = 900 defense

    But your primaly statement was that mobs have no defense, after a simple math it is 900 defense.

    0 ≠ 900
    1. This statement is false.
    2. New Mission; Refuse this mission.
    3. Does a set of every set contain itself?

    Look, you just don't get it. It's not worth my time arguing with you anymore.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    two30 wrote: »
    Those scare quotes are mean! The wiki is definitely official. It's just neglected even more than the Foundry.

    Sometimes I consider replacing the whole wiki with pictures of otters and timing how long it would take anyone to notice.

    Aww, I'm sorry. I know it's incredibly hard to keep up.

    Otters!
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Aww, I'm sorry. I know it's incredibly hard to keep up.

    Otters!

    Seals and Walruses!
  • angrymanagementangrymanagement Member Posts: 487 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The highest single target DPS rotation is Icy Terrain, COI, Sudden Storm(tab), Steal Time. The passive procs push the dps of these abilities above all others (RoE is actually better that ST, but ST gives HV procs x3).
    The exact same rotation works for AOE (with COI on tab for larger radius/chill).

    You can swap out powers if you need to stay at range for some reason. Also, Sudden Storm doesn't work on Valindra or Green Blobs as I recall.

    Regarding keeping HV stacks up, just use Steal Time. Fully casting ST will keep 3 stacks of HV up about 50% of the time on the targets hit. You can stop cast (teleport) it to keep it up permanent if you don't need the CC.


    Additional Note: For PVE, 3 stacks of HV is a 30% damage increase. This is not in question. This is easily verified. Use Act, & enable the Effectiveness column & it will show it to you. Otherwise you would need to do a lot of combat log reading. BI does not give bonus effectiveness which is not to say you can't get bonuses while wearing it. Personally I miss Mod 3 when Thaum CWs could stack 103% damage bonus (briefly) for the entire team or just run the standard 61% without using ROE.
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