Class Advocacy: Suggested Feat Reworks

jayrad8 · November 2014

Hey CW Community,

As I mentioned here, I have been working closely with Chem (@chemboy613) to transform the feedback I have been collecting into constructive solutions. We have developed reworks for feats in the Heroic, Oppressor, Thaumaturge, and Renegade paths that we hope will address the concerns of the community and restore or add features that you want to see in your CW. Coming soon, a similar thread will be created addressing all powers -- Class Features, Encounters, Dailys, and general mechanics like Chill, Teleport, etc.

As an Advocate, I have passed on your feedback such as "give Oppressors more control" and as a community we have seen that translate into the destruction of a great class feature, allbeit Oppressor was given control. Witnessing that and other examples of reworks gone poorly (no offense GC, we appreciate all your time and effort), I want to solicit feedback not only on *what* the problems are, but also on *how* to fix them in an attempt to help Crush see what we would like CWs to do. Essentially, I would like this thread to culminate as a plan for each feat path that, if implemented, our only complaints would be about how hard our choices have been made.

The reworks for feats in each path are detailed below in separate posts and have been created with the future in mind since the current state on Live will be history in three weeks, so take that into consideration when posting your comments. Each suggestion is accompanied by a summary of the feedback I have read, which elaborates on the issues you have pointed out and why you would like it to be changed. Going forward, I would like you all to:

Vote on reworks that you would like to see in-game
Tweak reworks that you would not be happy with to your preferences
Post your own reworks!

From your responses, I will update the OPs with a tally of votes for each rework and I will add your reworks as well. Please limit your discussions to the feat paths themselves, as a discussion on suggested changes for powers will be started in another thread. Also, responding with things like "your rework is dumb or broken OP" doesn't help anyone so be constructive and respectful, please.

Huge shout out, credit, and thanks to Chem for letting me pick his brain and bounce ideas off him!

Big thanks to you all as well for your continued feedback and involvement!

Take Care

jayrad8 · November 2014

I wanted to drop in with a quick update concerning when we will likely see more CW changes.

gentlemancrush wrote:

Wizards are getting less attention this Module because we need to focus on the Rogue and Cleric changes, but that makes your reports all the more important as it will let us pick and choose some high priority things to address.

gentlemancrush wrote:

I have definitely received your reports. As far as actioning them we have to find time to make changes balanced with future content/current higher priority issues. At this time I cannot discuss what the schedule for making changes looks like.

Basically, all I can stress is that we stay patient while TRs and DCs have their time in the sun. I've included everything in my reports -- things ranging from feedback on ugly robes and walk animations to hot topics such as Rene changes, Storm Spell, target caps, and the like. Several of my reports have been 3 PMs long (PMs are 5000 characters) so the Devs have a lot of information to work with, it's just a matter of when they are able to devote resources and which items they identify as high priority.

jayrad8 · November 2014

Reserved for future official feat changes, here are the latest batch:

October 9th

gentlemancrush wrote: »

Thaumaturge: Assailing Force: The damage from this power is now activated by Encounter powers rather than all damage.

Oppressor: Glacial Movement: This feat now increases the effectiveness of each rank of Orb of Imposition by 4/8/12/16/20%.

Renegade: Chaos Magic: Now correctly applies to allies.

gentlemancrush wrote: »

Renegade: Chaos Magic: Fury - Now grants 30% damage and 10% Life Steal (up from 10% and 5% respectively).

Renegade: Chaos Magic: Nexus - Now grants 30% Armor Penetration and 30% Critical Chance (up from 10%).

Renegade: Chaos Magic: Growth - Now heals every .5 seconds for 250% of your weapon damage (up from 200% every second).

Renegade: Masterful Arcane Theft: Damage bonus increased to 3/6/9/12/15% on targets affected by Chill (up from 1/2/3/4/5%) and 1.2/2.4/3.6/4.8/6% per stack of Arcane Mastery (up from .6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3%).

Renegade: Chilling Advantage: Chilling Presence increases Critical Chance by 2/4/6/8/10% (up from 1/2/3/4/5%).

jayrad8 · November 2014

Feats: Heroic

Heroic Path: There are a lot of great Heroic feats and a few obviously terrible choices that no one uses. The Heroic level is a great place to incorporate feats that allow players to start tailoring their builds to be more aggressive/offensive or tactical/defensive.

Controlling Action: The wording of this feat is incredibly deceiving -- instead of adding a flat 10% AP bonus to powers used on controlled targets (ie. say you build 50% AP on a controlled target, netting you a 5% bonus from the feat), the bonus is applied multiplicatively based on the AP Gain Bonus on your character sheet. So, if I have a 10% AP Bonus this feat boosts that by 10%, resulting in 11%. This is abysmal compared to 3% critical chance or 9% HP.

Rework: Your Action Point Gain is increased by 1/2/3/4/5%. (5 Yes, 0 No)

Fight On: Similar to Controlling Action, the wording is misleading. Instead of reducing your encounter cooldowns directly by 10% (ie. 10 seconds is now 9), this feat is actually a 10% bonus to your Recharge Speed Increase. For example, the formula for an encounter cooldown takes the form of K*(100/(100+R)) where K is the base encounter cooldown and R is your total RSI. If you have a 40% RSI from INT/Recovery/etc., this feat takes your multiplier from 100/140 to 100/150, which is less than a 10% improvement (actually only 6.7%), making this feat less desirable.

Rework: Your base encounter cooldowns are reduced by 2/4/6/8/10%. (5 Yes, 0 No)

Battlewise: Reduced threat is not useful in PvP and zero PvE builds incorporate this feat. At the T2 level, the reduced cooldowns or increased AoE damage are much more useful.

Rework: The distance you Teleport is increased by 2/4/6ft (or 3/6/9ft.). (4 Yes, 0 No)

Lightning Teleport: Again, much more useful in PvE where targets are constantly dying than PvP for CWs and still not used in PvE in favor of the damage increasing feats at the T3 level.

Rework: Your Armor Class is increased by 2/4/6 points. (3 Yes, 1 No)

or

Rework: Your Stamina Regeneration is increased by 2/4/6/8/10%. (2 Yes, 0 No)

Arcane Enhancement: The bonuses to Cold powers through feats outweigh those that are available for Arcane powers.

Rework: Your Arcane powers deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage. (3 Yes, 0 No)

or

Rework: Increase the amount of Control Bonus from Wisdom by 1/2/3/4/5%. (3 Yes, 0 No)

jayrad8 · November 2014

Feats: Oppressor

Oppressor Path: Current problem is chill immunity interacting adversely with the capstone and offering too much control to users of Rene/Thaum capstones. The control bonus being tied to OoI makes the class feature useless to any player who does not have Glacial Movement feated and in general, much of the control provided by the tree can be supplemented by bonuses from companions.

Brisk Transport: A great bonus, but the duration is too short given that Teleport leaves you rooted in place at the end for a noticeable fraction of time.

Rework: When you Teleport, your Run Speed is increased by 2/4/6/8/10% for 6 seconds. (4 Yes, 0 No)

or

Rework: Your Run Speed is increased by .6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3% for each stack of Arcane Mastery on you. (2 Yes, 0 No)

Chilling Control: Sudden Storm is a very powerful encounter and adding an instant five chill stack effect to it is too much at the T2 level. Adding CC to a originally non-CC power is a great synergy for the Oppressor tree, but it is out of hand due to the extent and accessibility to Rene/Thaum capstone users.

Rework: Arcane Control -- Sudden Storm now dazes targets hit by the primary strike for .3/.6/.9/1.2/1.5 seconds. (4 Yes, 0 No)

Glacial Movement: Having both the OoI and RoF bonuses in one feat is huge at the T3 level. Furthermore, the control incorporated into the Oppressor tree does not need to be limited to a specific class feature.

Rework: Controlled Movement -- The duration of your control powers is increased by 8/16/24/32/40%. (3 Yes, 0 No)

Cold Infusion: As mentioned above, Glacial Movement unquestionably dominates the T3 level. In order to be competitive with the large control bonus and RoF synergy, the damage debuff on targets affected by chill should be improved.

Rework: Foes affected by Chill deal .5/1/1.5/2/2.5% less damage per stack. (2 Yes, 0 No)

or, with the above Glacial Movement change

Rework: Ray of Frost and Chilling Cloud have a 10/20/30/40/50% chance to apply an additional stack of Chill. (2 Yes, 0 No)

Controlled Momentum: The damage bonus is lacking in comparison to the T4 feats of Rene/Thaum and Oppressors should have more than one feat that increases their personal damage. Rather than boosting damage with a small percent increase, allowing Oppressors to increase their damage output by controlling more targets would add a defining characteristic to the tree.

Rework: The target caps on your AoE encounter and daily powers are increased by 1/2/3/4/5 and 2/4/6/8/10 targets, respectively. (3 Yes, 0 No)

jayrad8 · November 2014

Feats: Thaumaturge

Thaumaturge Path: Players have expressed that they would like three feat paths consisting of Control, DoT/Debuff damage, and Burst/Self-buff damage -- Opp and Rene have the first and third nearly covered, leaving Thaum as the practical place for a DoT/Debuff path. Currently, Thaum is heavy on the DoTs through Elemental Empowerment but there are not enough debuff effects.

Drifting Embers: Due to the time involved in procing this effect and the poor state of the FtF encounter, this feat is simply not worth it. An instant effect added to FtF would be a great boost to the power, and perhaps persuade MoF players to incorporate it back into their arsenal -- or at least give FtF a time and place where it is better than an alternative.

Rework: Targets affected by Fanning the Flame have a 15/30/45/60/75% chance to spread smolder to a nearby target. (3 Yes, 0 No)

Snap Freeze: Current play emphasizes Chill stacking more than anything, so this bonus quickly becomes useless. The current bonus also encourages burst more so than DoT/Debuff, which is contrary to the playstyle that many Thaums wish to use.

Rework: Chill mitigates your target's defenses by .2/.4/.6/.8/1% (smaller %'s?) per stack. This debuff does not stack with other Control Wizards. (5 Yes, 0 No)

Destructive Wizardry: Allowing the effect to be refreshed would be a small, but appreciated QoL improvement for users of this feat.

Rework: When you cast a fully charged Storm Pillar, you gain 1/2/3/4/5% additional damage for 20 seconds. This effect does not stack, but its duration may be refreshed by subsequent fully charged casts of Storm Pillar. (2 Yes, 0 No)

Far Spell: Increased range to single target powers is really only of use in PvP, but it is a great utility in that setting. Building Arcane Mastery is a weakness of the Thaum path and Frozen Power Transfer currently dominates the T3 level, making this an ideal location for a comparative bonus.

Rework: Arcane Infusion -- Your cold powers have a 10/20/30/40/50% chance to grant you a stack of Arcane Mastery. (4 Yes, 1 No)

Assailing Force: The M4 rework introduced mechanics that a majority of CWs are displeased with. That being, random passive proc damage that encourages spamming your powers and requires no effort to take full advantage of besides simply dealing damage. In general, damage procing off of other damage leads to less skillful or active engagement from players. Many players enjoyed the debuff action previously provided by the capstone, but having it restricted to a single encounter was a huge limitation.

Rework: Dealing damage applies a stack of Assailant to your target, mitigating their defenses by 2% for 6 seconds. Assailant stacks up to 10 times and its duration is refreshed each time a new stack is applied. This effect does not stack with other Control Wizards. (3 Yes, 1 No)

jayrad8 · November 2014

Feats: Renegade

Renegade Path: Current problems include poor choices at T2 level, a bonus tied to a class feature at the T4 level, and capstone bonuses with conflicted use in PvE and PvP. Feats should reflect synergy with critical chance, combat advantage, and other mechanics of burst damage dealing so that reliable burst can be achieved without significant dependence on Eye of the Storm.

Reaper's Touch: Restricting the bonus to at-wills is extremely underwhelming. Bitter Cold, for example, is attained simply for a nice 5% damage bonus to your target and is at the T1 level. With the range of this effect being less than the distance of Teleport, it is not a favorable choice considering that CWs are at their best when keeping distance from their targets.

Rework: Your powers deal 1/2/3/4/5% more damage when you are within 30ft of your target. (4 Yes, 0 No)

Energy Recovery: Move to T3 in place of Phantasmal Destruction.

Rework: When you deal Combat Advantage damage you have a 10% chance to reduce your encounter cooldowns by 4/8/12/16/20%. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. (3 Yes, 0 No)

Unrestrained Choas: Maelstrom deals decent damage now, but the bonus should rival that of Twisting Immolation in the MoF paragon. The current bonus is not very useful since both Chill and Arcane Mastery stacks are relatively trivial to build.

Rework: Maelstrom of Chaos now consumes 3/6/9/12/15% less Action Points when cancelled and the target area radius is increased by 2/4/6/8/10ft. (2 Yes, 0 No)

Phantasmal Destruction: Move to T2 in place of Energy Recovery.

Chilling Advantage: A T4 feat should not be restricted to a single class feature -- this significantly impacts players by forcing them to use Chilling Presence, a mediocre and often sub-optimal choice for SS and MoF players.

Rework: Critical Advantage -- When your target is affected by chill or when you are affected by Arcane Mastery, your Cold and Arcane spells have 2/4/6/8/10% (1/2/3/4/5%) more chance to crit, respectively. (5 Yes, 0 No)

Chaos Magic: From a PvP perspective, each bonuses is extremely useful in supplementing offensive stats and boosting survivability. From a PvE perspective, the healing, life steal, and armor penetration bonuses are not particularly beneficial, especially when the player has already invested in these stats or a DC is in the party. There is also the issue of the bonuses being of situational use, yet they are activated randomly -- ie. when you need Growth, Fury procs and vice versa. A capstone should always be useful.

Rework: Same activation mechanic as current, altered effects. (4 Yes, 0 No)

Chaotic Growth: You gain 25% of your maximum Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points for 10 seconds. Any Temporary Hit points left at the end of the duration will be dealt as damage to your next target.
Chaotic Nexus: You gain 30% additional Critical Chance and Damage Reduction for 10 seconds.
Chaotic Fury: You gain 30% additional Combat Advantage Damage and Critical Severity for 10 seconds.

or

Rework: Same team buff mechanic as current, altered effects and activation. You may have one Offensive and one Defensive buff active at a time. (3 Yes, 0 No)

When dealing damage, you have a chance to apply one of the following Offensive buffs for 10 seconds:

30% Critical Chance
30% Critical severity
30% Combat Advantage Damage

When taking damage, you have a chance to apply one of the following Defensive buffs for 10 seconds:

30% Damage Resistance
250% Weapon Damage heal per second
25% of your Maximum Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points

yperkeimenos · November 2014

Chilling Control: Sudden Storm is a very powerful encounter and adding an instant five chill stack effect to it is too much at the T2 level. Adding CC to a originally non-CC power is a great synergy for the Oppressor tree, but it is out of hand due to the extent and accessibility to Rene/Thaum capstone users.

Rework: Arcane Control -- Sudden Storm now dazes targets hit by the primary strike for .3/.6/.9/1.2/1.5 seconds.

Ok, if the chill stack effect is to be removed from sudden storm,then the chill immunity of targets,after they unfreeze,should be reduced to 1-2 seconds from 3 secs,to compensate,or leave it as is but move it up the Oppressor tree from tier 2 to tier 3 or 4,so it's not accessible to other trees (Thaum-Renegade)

beckylunatic · November 2014

The paragon-specific feats cannot be moved, as their positioning is designed to make it possible for anyone to pick up two of them without requiring sacrifice of a capstone.

chemboy613 · November 2014

I just want to say guys, the amount of work and thought Ezra put into this is impressive. We have a great class advocate, and i enjoyed assisting him produce this work.

rashylewizz · November 2014

wrong post

shunterino · November 2014

beckylunatic wrote: »

The paragon-specific feats cannot be moved, as their positioning is designed to make it possible for anyone to pick up two of them without requiring sacrifice of a capstone.

Wasn't Nightmare Wizardry moved?

beckylunatic · November 2014

Nightmare Wizardry isn't paragon-specific, a feat unique to MoF or SS. The ones with the fancy borders. These are always tier 2 in order to allow people to take advantage of more than one of their paragon feats if they wish.

shunterino · November 2014

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

davecheese · November 2014

Some comments on the Heroic feats

Controlling Action Rework: Your Action Point Gain is increased by 1/2/3/4/5%.
Fight On Rework: Your base encounter cooldowns are reduced by 2/4/6/8/10%.

Yes to both! Additionally, anything to make tooltips more standardised
Battlewise Rework: The distance you Teleport is increased by 2/4/6ft.

I'd like to give this a go. I'm not sure 6ft is enough, so testing as 3/6/9ft would be good.
Lightning Teleport Rework: Your Armor Class is increased by 2/4/6 points.

Might be too powerful, but I may be overimagining what 6 points of AC provides.
Alternate suggestion: Increase stamina regeneration by 2/4/6/8/10%
Arcane Enhancement Rework: Your Arcane powers deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage.

Likely too powerful.
Alternate suggestion: Increase the amount of bonus control resist granted by Wisdom by 1/2/3/4/5% - similar to Learned Spellcaster

Some comments on the Oppressor feats

Brisk Transport Rework: When you Teleport, your Run Speed is increased by 2/4/6/8/10% for 6 seconds.

I'm still not sure 10% will be noticeable, but willing to give it a test.
Alternate suggestion: 0.6% per rank per arcane mastery stack. (Maxed out it would be 15%)
Chilling Control Rework: Arcane Control -- Sudden Storm now dazes targets hit by the primary strike for .3/.6/.9/1.2/1.5 seconds.

I like the idea of Sudden Storm getting a buff. It requires a bit of skill to line up correctly, but I think adding a stun may warrant a damage decrease.

Some comments on the Thaum feats

Snap Freeze Rework: Chill mitigates your target's defenses by .2/.4/.6/.8/1% per stack.

This is my sort of thing! I suspect it's too good, as it acts almost like a terror/plaguefire
Destructive Wizardry suggestion

Repeating this should refresh the duration of the buff

darthpotater · November 2014

First, awesome job. This is really incredible if we can get a rework like this with all the options being competitive.
Second, I think a good idea is that all or near all the paragon feats modify spells directly like chilling control. This gives the most versatility to make more different and competitive builds and is easy to "tweak". But this need much more work and ideas.

My feedback:
Heroic Feats: I agree with all the reworks, very nice work.
Paragon Feats
I agree with all the changes except:
- Chilling Control: I like the "arcane control" variant, but I think this should be in 3rd tier (even if we keep chilling control).
- All the debuff feats should be "not stackable" with other CWs
- Shatter strike should increase the orb of imposition bonus by 30% and orb can be 15/30/45 so is usefull for all the paths but more for oppressors
- Energy Recovery: This should have an internal cooldown or we can have a problem with our multiproc powers.
- Unrestrained Chaos: I dont like the actual maelstrom. Maelstrom should have other effect, like random daze, prone, push, freeze effect, less damage and should not have ap loss in his base, so this feat bonus is not needed, I suggest that this feat increase maelstrom damage or target cap or area(as suggested), but the base power needs a rework.
-Critical Advantage: Too powerfull. I suggest 1/2/3/4/5% flat crit increase but not attached to chilling presence.
-Chaos magic: I liked the rework idea, but seems extremely powerful on paper to me.

Will make more suggestons when I have time.

Thank you very much for doing this (and Chem), the game (and the CW community) really needs people like you

beckylunatic · November 2014

Lightning Teleport Rework: Your Armor Class is increased by 2/4/6 points.
Might be too powerful, but I may be overimagining what 6 points of AC provides.

GF requires 10 points invested into Protector to get +5 AC from a tier 2 paragon feat.

On Gateway, my GF shows 36 AC. He has this feat but I think Gateway can't reflect build choices, only gear.

My CW is 17 (likewise SW and TRs are 17 or 18), DC 22, GWF 29.

darthpotater · November 2014

Each 2 points of AC = +1% damage reduction
6AC = 3% dmg reduction seems very good but not overpowerd to me, if you pick this you are not taking other damage feats

notsheriffsrs · November 2014

Yes to almost everything.

NO to Far Spell, DO NOT touch it please.

aulduron · November 2014

I don't think the heroic feats are pressing, but I do like Arcane Enhancement. Our Arcane powers don't do much damage, except for Steal Time and OF, so I don't think it's too powerful.

Since I'm not an Oppressor, I don't have much interest in these changes, but I think Chilling Control is their Nightmare Wizardry. It should be moved up the tree, out of reach of Thaums. (Renes can't really take it because of our T2s).

I'm not a Thaum either.

I am, however, a Renegade so these interest me greatly.

Feats: Renegade

Renegade Path: Current problems include poor choices at T2 level, a bonus tied to a class feature at the T4 level, and capstone bonuses with conflicted use in PvE and PvP. Feats should reflect synergy with critical chance, combat advantage, and other mechanics of burst damage dealing so that reliable burst can be achieved without significant dependence on Eye of the Storm.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Reaper's Touch: Restricting the bonus to at-wills is extremely underwhelming. Bitter Cold, for example, is attained simply for a nice 5% damage bonus to your target and is at the T1 level. With the range of this effect being less than the distance of Teleport, it is not a favorable choice considering that CWs are at their best when keeping distance from their targets.

Rework: Your powers deal 1/2/3/4/5% more damage when you are within 30ft of your target.

I like this, and agree that our risk should be rewarded, but I do most of my damage up close. Steal Time, Icy Terrain and Sudden Storm, for instance, all force you to be close. I get close to cast these and usually stay close, until I'm forced back. For Lostmauth, Garakas and Syndrith, I'm always in melee range. It's probably too powerful for a T1.

Energy Recovery: Move to T3 in place of Phantasmal Destruction.

Rework: When you deal Combat Advantage damage you have a 10% chance to reduce your encounter cooldowns by 4/8/12/16/20%.

If it's buffed, it doesn't really need to be moved.

Unrestrained Choas: Maelstrom deals decent damage now, but the bonus should rival that of Twisting Immolation in the MoF paragon. The current bonus is not very useful since both Chill and Arcane Mastery stacks are relatively trivial to build.

Rework: Maelstrom of Chaos now consumes 3/6/9/12/15% less Action Points when cancelled and the target area radius is increased by 2/4/6/8/10ft.

No opinion. I don't use MoC and don't care about this feat, as long as I have one good T2.

Phantasmal Destruction: Move to T2 in place of Energy Recovery.

If Energy Recovery is buffed into something useful, then the weaker of these two powers should be T2. Assuming of course that PD works.

Chilling Advantage: A T4 feat should not be restricted to a single class feature -- this significantly impacts players by forcing them to use Chilling Presence, a mediocre and often sub-optimal choice for SS and MoF players.

Rework: Critical Advantage -- When your target is affected by chill or when you are affected by Arcane Mastery, your Cold and Arcane spells have 2/4/6/8/10% more chance to crit, respectively.

This might make me drop EotS. I think I like it, but testing would be required.

Chaos Magic: From a PvP perspective, each bonuses is extremely useful in supplementing offensive stats and boosting survivability. From a PvE perspective, the healing, life steal, and armor penetration bonuses are not particularly beneficial, especially when the player has already invested in these stats or a DC is in the party. There is also the issue of the bonuses being of situational use, yet they are activated randomly -- ie. when you need Growth, Fury procs and vice versa. A capstone should always be useful.

Rework: Same activation mechanic as current, altered effects.

Chaotic Growth: You gain 25% of your maximum Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points for 10 seconds. Any Temporary Hit points left at the end of the duration will be dealt as damage to your next target.
Chaotic Nexus: You gain 30% additional Critical Chance and Damage Reduction for 10 seconds.
Chaotic Fury: You gain 30% additional Combat Advantage Damage and Critical Severity for 10 seconds.

or

Rework: Same team buff mechanic as current, altered effects and activation.

When dealing damage, you have a chance to apply one of the following effects for 10 seconds:

30% Critical Chance
30% Critical severity
30% Combat Advantage Damage

When taking damage, you have a chance to apply one of the following effects for 10 seconds:

30% Damage Resistance
250% Weapon Damage heal per second
25% of your Maximum Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points

I like the first rework. It's better than what we have now and what we are soon to have. The second rework I don't think I understand. It looks like you'd get one set if dealing damage or one set if you're taking damage. We take and dish out at the same time. I don't know how this would work.

I would like to add that Arcane stacks should be more plentiful and/or last longer.

pointsman · November 2014

the proposed rework to Assailant is stupidly OP. it is even more OP than the mod3 version of Assailing Force. no dev in their right mind would consider such a change.

try proposing something reasonable that the devs might actually consider.

chemboy613 · November 2014

the old version was instant. This new version, you have to stack it, so it won't happen right away.

pointsman · November 2014

Yeah, I say no to the Lightning Teleport rework that would increase AC.

Wizards are supposed to have the worst armor. We should not have AC that rivals leather or even chain mail. We wear cloth robes. That is because we defend ourselves using our wits. That is why INT is our primary ability score. If anything, we should have a defense mechanism that allows us to pierce through control immunity if only for a limited time. That is more consistent with what wizards ought to be able to do.

pointsman · November 2014

But just so I'm not a complete negative nellie.

I like the rework to Controlling Action and Fight On.

I am indifferent to the proposed change to Battlewise. There is no way I would pick this feat anyway so I don't care.

The devs just nerfed Arcane Enhancement, so I doubt they would be willing to buff it back up. But I would be okay with changing it to be a buff to WIS instead. That would provide an option for the high-Recovery build.

I do agree that Chilling Control probably ought to get a nerf. But I am not sure if a daze is what it ought to change to. Thinking about what the corresponding MoF power is (Twisting Immolation), I might suggest that the Chilling Control feat might be changed to something that buffed Maelstrom of Chaos. And then in the Renegade tree, that paragon-specific feat might be used to buff Storm Spell in a way that benefits high crit chance SS wizards (not by freezing them!).

Controlled Momentum: I would be careful with increasing the target caps of *everything*. Maybe just a select few, like Arcane Singularity/Furious Immolation.

Drifting Embers: I still think almost no MoF would pick this feat even if reworked.

Snap Freeze: I like the idea but I think the values ought to be reworked in order to not make it stupidly OP for a 2nd tier feat.

I do like the idea behind the change to Far Spell.

I am wondering if anyone ever picks Energy Recovery. Maybe this feat should be just eliminated entirely and replaced completely with something useful.

I would reconsider your thoughts on Chilling Advantage especially if the proposed changes to Chilling Presence make it to live. I think Chilling Presence would become the new hotness (no pun intended!).

I do think that Chaos Magic requires some more thought as to what a Renegade CW is supposed to do. Quite frankly I think the capstone feat of a Renegade CW should be something that buffs CW single target abilities. Because when I think of a Renegade CW, I think of basically a TR who wears robes and casts spells. Renegade should be the preferred CW build for PVPers who want to just melt targets, and Oppressor CW hsould be for PVPers who want targers to be perma-controlled. (And Thaum CW should not be reasonably chosen by any PVP CW, only in PVE would it be a viable choice.)

Just my 0.02 AD worth.

magiquepurse · November 2014

pointsman wrote: »

Yeah, I say no to the Lightning Teleport rework that would increase AC.

Wizards are supposed to have the worst armor. We should not have AC that rivals leather or even chain mail. We wear cloth robes. That is because we defend ourselves using our wits. That is why INT is our primary ability score. If anything, we should have a defense mechanism that allows us to pierce through control immunity if only for a limited time. That is more consistent with what wizards ought to be able to do.

We're also supposed to have all kinds of fancy spells, many of them defensive in nature, such as Invisibility, Mirror Images, Ethereal Visage or Stoneskin yet we don't have them.

Many times our defenses are actually from our CC/attacks, which are again lacking SEVERELY in this game:

- Hold person/monster
- time stop
- confusion
- Dispel
- flesh to stone
- Power Word: Stun
- Spell Mantle
- Mass Charm
- dominate
- true seeing

I am just enumerating classic D&D spells (possible I mispelled a few, but you must have gotten the idea) that make a Wizard what it should be and are completely nonexistent here.

So yes, we are definitely not supposed to be armored PCs, but we are however supposed to have a LARGE amount of spells at our disposal with a significant amount of self-buffs and debilitating effects for our enemies, all of these mechanics being very limited in this game to the point of negatively affecting the class.

pointsman · November 2014

magiquepurse wrote: »

Many times our defenses are actually from our CC/attacks

That is why, if there is going to be some sort of defense rework, it should be in the form of piercing CC immunity (for a limited time).

But absolutely no to giving us wizards better armor.

smulch · November 2014

The only change renegade needs right now is to move one of the t4 feats to t2. That's all.

smulch · November 2014

magiquepurse wrote: »

We're also supposed to have all kinds of fancy spells, many of them defensive in nature, such as Invisibility, Mirror Images, Ethereal Visage or Stoneskin yet we don't have them.

Many times our defenses are actually from our CC/attacks, which are again lacking SEVERELY in this game:

- Hold person/monster
- time stop
- confusion
- Dispel
- flesh to stone
- Power Word: Stun
- Spell Mantle
- Mass Charm
- dominate
- true seeing

I am just enumerating classic D&D spells (possible I mispelled a few, but you must have gotten the idea) that make a Wizard what it should be and are completely nonexistent here.

So yes, we are definitely not supposed to be armored PCs, but we are however supposed to have a LARGE amount of spells at our disposal with a significant amount of self-buffs and debilitating effects for our enemies, all of these mechanics being very limited in this game to the point of negatively affecting the class.

This is based on dnd 4th edition. Not dnd 3.5

yperkeimenos · November 2014

beckylunatic wrote: »

The paragon-specific feats cannot be moved, as their positioning is designed to make it possible for anyone to pick up two of them without requiring sacrifice of a capstone.

Actually no,they moved the renegade specific feats up and down the tree just fine ,when they wanted to,so they can do the same for chilling control. Also capstone feats are tier 5 so moving chilling control to tier 3 or 4 is very possible,since it wont affect the positioning of tier 5 feats.

chemboy613 · November 2014

the idea is that the paragon PATH specific feats have to be T2

the paragon TREE feats they moved.

I do think NM Wiz was a bit OP to take as thaum - but i do miss it

helpimblindinrl · November 2014

I'll just comment on the feats I have an opinion about and leave out what I have no opinion on.

Arcane enhancement, I would prefer the damage.

An improvement to fight on would be ok

No one is going to want brisk teleport either way but the 6 seconds makes more sense because oppressors are probably doing more chillstack stuff.

I'd rather the chiling control stay the same. I've only ever feated it for solo stuff. Its not a big dps thing thought that may change with the fun and games announced with chiling presence. I'd certainly prefer to see how that shakes out before nerfing it. It isn't going to be seen in pvp anyway so its not going to annoy a lot of people anyway.

In general I don't like change to glacial movement because of where its coming from. Anyway one thing an oppressor gets is faster popsicle men. That's like their thing. If that goes to the other feat that's ok. Not sure how much less damage per stack really means so I don't care about it, like in pve its who cares nothing hurts that much anyway and in pvp the people who can hurt you most have ways of shaking them off.

I did want the daily powers target caps to increase to bring back singularity but I'm probably not going down oppressor to get it. Like the selfish move to me is just casting oppressive and doing singularity is generous to the gwfs and others but going all the way down there for it is really really going out of my way. The regular aoe change would be a really big damage increase. Like suddenstorm and terrain hit everything but if steal time hit 10 things thats going to be huge especially counting stormspell procs. Put conduit it on top of it and its good night and good luck.

Snap freeze became a pvp thing for me, like it makes a really strong opening argument. Getting on average 3% damage buff is kind of not interesting in comparison especially compared to bitter cold which gives you a flat 5%.

Far spell is again a pvp thing, everyone wants it because you want to start hitting stuff from as far away as possible before it comes in and opens its bowels and sprays intimidation everywhere. I don't want to give that up at all.

I don't like the assailant nerfs that are incoming but I also don't want to be like the destroyer frantically chasing stacks. Functionally who know it might be stronger than assailant now because it only hits one thing but we also have the pvp to worry about. People don't like assailant as a proc but it happens. it is a thing that goes. Other people also have a means of disengaging if things go poorly for them but not us and they come back when they feel better like when the stacks drop off. Who knows if the devs do them like chillstacks that people can remove if they want. I want a thing that happens like a straight up effect like the 15% mitigation decrease. This would put us in the bracket for resistance ignored that everyone else achieves with ease but if I can't have that I'd rather have the proc that actually happens not something I can kiss goodbye if the tr says no thanks I'm going to run in a circle more. Also like 20 stacks? What lives long enough to get that far? Its like the old dc thing of having 4 divine pips. If you ever have they many you messed up.

I don't mind energy recovery being moved further up to give people something to take. That's fine. If nightmare wizardy remains a 5% thing not so much. If you have a guy who wants to be on the other side giving you combat advantage that great but it doesn't always work out like that. 5% is low enough that it never happens in an encounter. Kind of like wasted points a lot of the time with that and energy recovery if you don't have a dude going the other side.

Chilling advantage might well be plenty strong given the just announced changes. Wait and see on that one.

I've always hate the randomness of the renegade capstone. You need one thing you get a different thing. The results in some cases seem absurdly strong in the new version. The arp might end up redundant in pve but like 30% chance to crit? Add that to a base of call it 35% and eots and it seems like no scenario where you won't just dump crit endlessly. Like 75% bonus damage by default by .3 is 22.5% more damage we are going to get when that's up, not counting stormspell comedy. Throw a perfect vorpal into the mix and you get people making some interesting choices about when they want to stop and fight and a lot of air sucked through the teeth of other classes. Like even if you don't get a crazy crit bonus its 30% more damage which is also nuts. If that went up with eots, yeah.

What would save it normally is the garbage you have to take to get there. If nightmare wizardry doesn't switch on you have a lot of wasted points but masterful Arcane Theft is on the way up, chilling advantage got a weird *** buff. And I guess the healing version will mean nothing to pve people. They will chug a pot or stand next to the sw now I guess and wait for the thing they want. I still don't see this lasting long.

I will give it a go on live for a while but I don't really want to play with more randomness.

Class Advocacy: Suggested Feat Reworks

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