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Module 5 Trickster Rogue Discussion Thread
ambisinisterr
Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
Hey guys,
Please keep all of your theorycrafting and general discussions for Trickster Rogues in this thread.
The Official Feedback Threads are only to give your feedback directly to the developers. Do not debate your opinions or feedback with others or discuss what new strategies may work better within the Official Feedback Threads.
The more clutter and off topic posts there are the harder it will be for the developers to read, compile and react to your much appreciated feedback.
Please keep all of your theorycrafting and general discussions for Trickster Rogues in this thread.
The Official Feedback Threads are only to give your feedback directly to the developers. Do not debate your opinions or feedback with others or discuss what new strategies may work better within the Official Feedback Threads.
The more clutter and off topic posts there are the harder it will be for the developers to read, compile and react to your much appreciated feedback.
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I am glad the TR is finally getting some attention. At first I was delighted when I thought they were doing away with perma stealth until I realized they were making it even easier for one path. While I am noticing a damage increase, I am also noticing a survivability decrease (but only on things you can react to and it remains the same basically for things one cannot react to). I sort of think that they should normalize stealth, make it a flat 6 to 8 seconds, replace Improved Cunning Sneak with something else, replace grim/profound/battlefield stealth extension bonus with something else, change B&S so that it doesn't refill stealth and modify it to actually generate some aggro, make stealth not drain from at wills or from taking damage (maybe it stops refreshing from taking damage but it should not drain). I am not sure about shadow strike, it may be fine if left as it is or it maybe could be reduced to 50% of the stealth bar and increased in its damage. I am also not quite sure about gloaming cut as I am not a fan of the stealth regeneration of it in general. With this approach stealth is normalized across all builds with the exception of the saboteur path having its methods to refresh stealth faster. Of course the TR at its base would have to be significantly improved but in this fashion we would have a predictable stealth that could be used for more than just setting up Lashing Blade (or whatever).
Okay just ramblings so that this thread was not forgotten.
I think the combat HR is a good idea on how we should be, in damage and survival, and at the moment I think we're lacking in both.
I slightly disagree.
Most of the time i see other TR dying because of reckless actions and stupid movement. Last time i saw an TR in eLOL that dodged an AoE Attack of an Monster only to jump in another one to get instant killed. I have the feeling that most other TR players ignoring her souroundings and die because of a lack of attention.
And in addition we have a good defensiv stat only for us: Deflection!
I got my deflection in purified black ice (my defensiv armor) up to 40% and i am an half-orc TR. And i dont really sacrifice my offensive power to have a proper defensive ability and still have 2.000 Defence and 7.500 Power, 47% Critical Hit and about 2540 Armor Pen.
I think the most problem is to understand not to build a glascannon but a proper character. I really often have the feeling Neverwinter is rewarding the patient player with a good balanced character and not the overpowered instant nuker with 0 defensive ability.
I play with my HR and I seem to have less of a problem with enemy groups when soloing. It's much more forgiving if I make a mistake.
yeah, that is definitely possible depending on how geared you are. in a more offensive set i can get 47.9% deflect, 23.2% resist, 7.6% life-steal (+5% from feat), 26k hp, 4k power, 37.5% crit, 24.6% recharge, 15% armor pen, and 40% combat advantage bonus. my deflect can be pushed to 52% and higher with procs but it's all a whole bunch of mental warfare on trade-offs though. i prefer my defensive set though since i can keep my 31k hp with it and that much hp is sometimes necessary to survive a non-deflect hit.
i do have issues occasionally dodging into those gigantic red circles in dragon skirmish boss fight but it's moreso because it's offscreen or i am being forced to position myself in a cramped area, shifting boss aggro, and/or people turning garakas towards everyone else. otherwise, i am just fine and i can even survive a fire-spin from those drakes which i have yet to see anyone else stand in without dying (throw in a healer and i can act immortal). most other boss fights can't even kill me even if i fail a dodge.
but i do agree with you somewhat. most rogues don't even have 25k hp for pve much less the 30k+ mile-stone. some don't even know how to dodge properly or just side-step/deft stike out of an aoe.
i dont believe to this...
can you please tell me how many HP and how much dex/cha do you have to reach that 50% deflect?
raw deflect rating?
me with 16 charisma, 20 dex and 1500 deflect i m at about 28% deflect which isnt remotely comparable to other classes except cw.
cause charisma bonus damage does not work so those are points kinda wasted
cha = 24 (2 from belt)
hp = 30,967
deflect stat = 3,464
my stat roll is just extremely favorable for deflect
and i do think charisma works for combat advantage. 15% base, 10% in offensive draconic, 14% from cha, 5% from stat. from a quick test it comes out to about 27-54% damage bonus in purified and in draconic that becomes 42-71%. considering that it's 34% in purified and 44% in draconic, it's pretty close to the minimum gain since i try to record the best hits without any buff/debuffs proccing.
HP in purified? INT points?
those 3464 points are stone less?
im getting interested if you dont mid. looking for ways to stop using ITC
For crying out, rarydan, cool down, bro. demon didn't make any judgements, he simply mentioned higher deflect is possible, and he even mentioned in his post that that's a result of sacrificing a lot of other stats like HP.
Now you're just snapping and attacking anyone who seem to sound like being positive to the changes.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
con = 11
int = 13
str = 16
hp in purified is 30,967 (1 radiant and 3 silveries) and 27,823 in draconic (1 slot empty and 3 silveries). i miss my defense slot from belt >.>
i don't own a stone and have yet to use kits as well
ok i did some testing.
with campfire i m actually:
20- str
22- con (belt)
20- dex
19- int
16- cha
with purified/kits i can reach something about 33%
moving around 3 heroic feats i can reach 36% deflect with 2750 defence and about 46500 HP.
so the best i can look at is 40% moving 2 points from cos to cha and other 2 from str to char.
and maybe using green glyphs something more even tho those are underwhelming.
At first i thought it was a i wasnt geting out of the red issue but, realized its just a case of melee adventurers get hit. The other thing is i contrasted this a little bit to my Guildies alt Hr. The Hr around 10kgs in all blues as a combat Hr was around 60% deflecton he said, and by the time the character hit 12kgs he said it was around 70% the difference is i dont think he had to sacrfice any offense for it.
And thats really what it comes down to, If the goal is to prevent death deflection is not a good system because at some point it becaue not 46% chance of take damage or take lesss damage, but a 54% chance of death i couldnt ever solve it and with the huge hit to my offennse it wasnt worth it in the long run.
That said at 15kgs my character is still dex 25 cha 22, andi have 33% deflection, If i move 3 heroic feats around, and use skilful infiltrator i can push that to 39%. And i think thats really our limit without making sacrifices. The problem is on Preview the scoundrel path didnt do alot to change this, mos tof its defense when i got it working was dazing npc with path of the blade.
no no kweassa i may have given a wrong idea, im really positive! im enjoying all the new aspects. god i have finally changed set!
im quite disappointed in the survivabilities stuffs and when i hear "i have 50% deflect no prob" i just want to make sure that devs dont get a wrong message.
yes you can, but playing with 20k hp is no good.
mojorat express my concerns quite well.
althought fun the new tr is still a concentrate of sacrificies:
- sacrificies to bring cooldowns to reasonable levels.
- sacrificies to have higher HP
- sacrificies for shadow strike
- sacrificies for deflect
while i can just log my HR or GWF and i see the heaven
free deflect free lifesteal, free procs, disengage, gap closer, passive heals.
so no i m not negative, i would just like those sacrificies halved (not deleted) on top of the already on ptr changes.
however kweassa i dont get how my deflect limit concerns can be remotely tied to the new changes...
lets hope in crush to write something today
without trying to stack deflect im at 40% on my HR + 15% of pathfinder ( a class feature that gives deflect for 8 seconds after a daily, you can throw disrputive every 10 sec....uptime 80%).
so yeah it s probably possible to reach those levels
The issue here is all attacks from stealth have combat advantage.
It specifically says in his quote outside of stealth AND with combat advantage. Meaning it has two conditionals.
I do what to play new TR since my first char in beta was a TR and I like him very much. But having to equal classes is no good. Especially if you consider that bow as tab for combat HR is not really used.
Would really prefer that devs not copy features of one class in another one. Will try to explain why.
Similar to GF and GWF, TRs and HRs are common - both have 2 hand melee and are dex type of chars.
Biggest difference that devs made combat HR look like TRs and "share" some stuff. While HR had a usable bow it was ok. But after they ruined class with mod 4 changes (imho) bow is pretty useless. Then moved some stuff back from HR to TR - piercing, shorter dodges, "better" thorn cone ets.
Yet still it fills for me that TR are now just better version of combat HRs with stealth, 75% def severity and definitely more solid encounter base then HR unfortunately have due to nerfs.
As for TR change I really welcome them but having 2 pretty close classes may lead to one being obsolete. As was before with GF and GWF tanks.
If i switched to the full defense deflect build i talked to about earlier, ill drop to 3rd or 4rth place in Dps and the above scenario can still happen. The trade off is masive and the ultimate risk instant death is still there. Part of the reason for this though is that there is very little support for Deflection in our feats and class features. In live its 1 heroic feat and 1 class feature. So this means the shift to a defensive build is almost entirel gear based. Its much easier to do at the higher end of gear and i often see higher end TR and they basically have similar offense stats to my curent Build but much better defenses.
Seperate from the defensive issue i noticed something interesting on Test server. If you have the two cooldown reduction feats in Sab, I found its really easy to keep our really long duration powers up. Both PotB and Bait and Switch i can basically keep up indefinately, This seems doable on any TR using SS and the two feats from Sab provided you have good Action point generation to drop dailies. Over all it seems a good rythim to get the right amount of stealth and trigger our powers.
Pretty much all the issues i run into now is Defense while not stealthed, but i dont know how to express this properly in Feedback. The only time i felt my DPS was low was when i did the Assembly HE which had two non elite 62 lvl NPC and it took forever to kill them.
agreed, but hunters are also a minimum standard needed that rogues have to surpass in mobility/deflect and we should be far more nimble than a class carrying a bow.
quite frankly even if we had 90% deflect rate it wouldn't even be overpowered since in pve other classes have the ease of being ranged and not being in danger of being hit (not to mention the randomness can fail you). in pvp, a front-liner is focused down anyways so it's just a time-extension on how long you live. add in the fact that a lot of procs bypass deflect and a few classes have easy access to a prone then it also makes countering easy.
On my SW HR I have 50% flat in purified set with tweaks to artifacts and gems. And around <40% DR. It is possible. price is damage of course. So with Pathfinder there is really no a big problem to get 65%. Real problem that Deflect soft cap starts around 2.2 k. So getting more then 33% of flat deflect is a problem and calls for sacrifice - eg 2.5% deflect vs 0.5 sec cooldown vs 5% LS vs flat damage increase ets.
Aslo remember that TR have 75% Deflect severity while HR have only 50%.
don't hunters have 75% in melee?
Well as combat HR I can assure you that I do 90% in melee. Not that I like that as a class that has a bow). Short why- on SW HR you have aimed and rapid as main in my load - i can either do 1 top 2 shot of aimed in pve ~ 15-25k damage before I got mobs, or 6-7 rapids. Or main damage comes in close combat. And combat HR have all perks only in combat btw. I only switch for 2 seconds in Range to place thorn and rain. Or trigger fox cunning to dodge hard hits.
PVP - i fire Aimed like once in a blue moon. Prons are also problem for combat HRs. We do have boars and aimed as must in pvp.
Im not trying to find whos live if harder - HR or TR. both have its differences. Yet still I m not in favor or devs trends - making HR option less and giving TRs stuff HRs class specific. Id really prefer that devs worked in opposite ways.
As a tr grinding away to get gear and fully using curropt black ice gear. 16 k gear score still have a hard time surveing in areas. i think have a range weapon would help. Apoligise for my english it not so good.
Thanks
don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to say hunters don't deserve such survivability. i'm also not talking about the millions of mobs in most dungeons.
what i meant was the fact that hunters have a choice to avoid attacks that can 1-shot them while melees have no choice but to tank/dodge it. hence the need for a superior form of survivability. like in shores of tuern with the guardians that have hit me for at least 28k hp whenever they enter melee range of me (so i avoid them like the plague), hunters rooting followed by a 1-shot (death if you can't daze, itc, or deflect it), drakes using fire spin (itc or dodge), and golems with their mega punch. things like that are what every ranged class has the option to avoid and continue attacking without being restricted.
The cause and effect is totally different, since it's not just deflect by itself that allows the combat HR to be a combat HR, ie, the game's fastest maneuvering, walking regen/LS tank. It's the net-web of multiple defense effects that rack up to its survivability, making it very difficult to take down without either a mega-high burst damage, or CCs, or both, as you already know.
With high deflect alone, things are a bit different. Without all of the chunks of defense, synergy-heals, buffs and etc., high deflect alone allows a more slower, controled rate of HP decline while under attack. It makes you tougher, but damage is still damage.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
New mod5, the off-hand artifact weapon and its tenacious concealment related power, is going to give most TRs what they want -- IF they slot tencon.
No stealth depletion upon attack received. You can't force out a TR with damage any more. Also, stealth refills without depleting. It just stops momentarily when damage received.
So in a strange way, we sort of got what we wished for with stealth changes.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
50 only.
/10chars