5 GWF PvP 20k GS - why a lot of players have switched or complain

nezraal · October 2014

Introduction

Till now a lot of GWF have been complaining why our class is significantly behind. There were no evidence or parties and Cryptic developers dismissed our claims of taking away prone, lowering our defense and our overall damage in every way possible. As an attempt 5 GWF friends averaging 20k GS ran parties to see the outcome. To repeat results and collect data as solid evidence we ran 4 PvP against random teams.

The Start

All of us full of confidence, we will cc our opponents, harass them on flag points. How could it be ? All of us ranked from pages, 15-45.

nezraal · October 2014

The Team

All players have 4xPurified Black Ice, 4 players have orange weapon and belt and 4 have orange artifacts, belt and all standard enchantments, etc.

nezraal · October 2014

(Nub of the team, NezRaaL [myself])

The Result

We lost all 4 poorly, very poorly.

1st - 1000-2

2nd - 1000-210

3rd - 1000-50

4th - 1000-310

My handle is nezraal and you can check my PvP log.

All the results came against DIFFERENT RANDOM teams.

Evident from one of the results, we died like no one's business. We tried different strategies from harassing nodes, standing on flag points, etc. Nothing really worked. So I urge Cryptic, instead of looking at 1 or 2 youtube videos, incorrect feedback and results evaluate this class. We are significantly behind. At least one prone is a must, Destro tree needs more survival (we get cc even before we start), sentinel lack any kind of burst and a lot of our attacks can be dodged and takes high animation time. Relaying the frustrations I feel when running premades which are echoed by a lot of GWF from time to time, who primarily play this class. Glass sentinel is weaker than destro and a solid sentinel on high defense hp has no damage. The new instigator path is a bad joke, compared to the Destro, no point elaborating on it.

Conclusion

We took an effort to make a team, run PvP and show data. This is what the reality is, running GWF in PvP when running against solid opponents. I urge the Cryptic development team to re-consider our damage, our CC and our defense to make it a solid and viable class for PvP, as for the way it stands right now - in team vs team or 1 vs 1 against a solid opponent (in most occasion) GWF's current position is unacceptable.

I understand that a lot of people will be saying you need to mix team, or some people will be making fun of us but the results ? Not even once could we not achieve a score of 330 (1/3rd or 33% of the score in 4 PvP all random teams) ? Is this acceptable? Will you now pay attention to our feedback and complaints ? Again I urge that our efforts for collecting data is not overlooked. We were hoping for a more balanced mod5 and judging by the change, I fear for the worst. On behalf of all GWF I hope our class mechanics will be re-evaluated to play this class in PVP as a viable option.

suddenlyslow · October 2014

While I can understand frustration over this, it isn't possible for us to know if you sand bagged deliberately (or even subconsciously), and while I will take you at your word you must consider that you described yourself going in with overwhelming confidence and perhaps when you ran into difficulty that confidence led to quicksand (I have seen this happen many times) and then it took a life of its own from there. Even notice in your SC of your worst performance the class that had the best score was a gwf and so he would certainly not have your same view of things in that case.

It is completely inconclusive from what you present us with. Look over your post as you cannot have all positions equal (You state that you wanted to show the difficulties the class was facing but yet you all are high ranked and you state you had overwhelming confidence when setting up this experiment). Even if you were honest in your approach you could have set yourselves up for failure and unknowingly interacted with each other and produced the results you wanted to without even realizing that you were doing this (much like how people who play with a Ouija board will).

While your efforts took time they are ultimately meaningless and simply show that five people who passionately wanted to prove the difficulties the class was facing went out and did just that and you must realize how this will look to anyone who reads it.

notsheriffsrs · October 2014

lol you guys are SO bad.

Did any of you even run Indimidation?

You can place two GWF's at a point and they can 1-rotation an entire team.

The fact that you lost against 4 CONTROL WIZARDS (GWF with Intimidation currently DESTROYS a CW, even without Indimitation they still beat them) tells me you do not deserve your gear and you are pathetic players.

GWF is perfectly balanced right now. ONLY TAKEDOWN NEEDS ITS PRONE BACK. That's it.

nezraal · October 2014

suddenlyslow wrote: »

While I can understand frustration over this, it isn't possible for us to know if you sand bagged deliberately (or even subconsciously), and while I will take you at your word you must consider that you described yourself going in with overwhelming confidence and perhaps when you ran into difficulty that confidence led to quicksand (I have seen this happen many times) and then it took a life of its own from there. Even notice in your SC of your worst performance the class that had the best score was a gwf and so he would certainly not have your same view of things in that case.

It is completely inconclusive from what you present us with. Look over your post as you cannot have all positions equal (You state that you wanted to show the difficulties the class was facing but yet you all are high ranked and you state you had overwhelming confidence when setting up this experiment). Even if you were honest in your approach you could have set yourselves up for failure and unknowingly interacted with each other and produced the results you wanted to without even realizing that you were doing this (much like how people who play with a Ouija board will).

While your efforts took time they are ultimately meaningless and simply show that five people who passionately wanted to prove the difficulties the class was facing went out and did just that and you must realize how this will look to anyone who reads it.

I can assure you, the results are genuine. Here is how I felt (from my point of view) of how the PVP went. You have to ask my team mates on their reflection of result, however here is mine.

1. 1 21k GS HR geared HR can out-do 2 GWF in 20 GS.
2. 1 20k+ TR is almost impossible to kill, and their damage is higher than GWF. mod5 TR will have higher damage.
3. We had no DC against us.
4. SW movement, CW dodge - I felt I didn't connect a lot of my attacks.
5. GF defense KV and bull charge again, really no chance.

The above 5 are accurate and known facts. Scores on a winning team can be misleading, as a TR / HR can occupy an opponent node, and CW /SW can cast CC allowing other classes to be vulnerable. The 5 above itself is sufficient to make the class "handicapped". By theory, the GWF has a spot in the middle ? To open and harass while opening doors for CW /SW. Reality is, different and chaotic. GWF need to be EQUALLY challenging in 1v1 environment. Furthermore outstanding CCs it should be able to land sufficient damage. This is missing. Sprint is used as a scrape goat example, GWF get cced in different position before sprinting and after landing damage. So not only in 1v1, in team games GWF is the MOST vulnerable (lacking sufficient dodge or damage or cc, since stun barely works).

It's common knowledge high end gear TR,HR & GF out-do GWF on 1v1.
It's also common knowledge our class is the most vulnerable. People point to our sprint, but in burst criteria GWF will get cced way before that. ArP killing DR% GWF is unable to face-tank as a "so-called" off tank.
It is also common knowedge of the HIGH CD encounters and low damage GWF have. Furthermore GWF have to make an extra effort to "connect" their encounters. I am talking about pvp against "skilled" players, not random pugs.
GWF stun have little effect on opponent, since most land in dodge, and has low duration time due to tenacity, slight lag and re-action time. 3s stun feels like 1s or less.

I feel the points above are a problem to the game mechanics of our class. Low CC, hard to land damage (against skilled opponents), low survive and lack of sufficient burst (except IBS with 5/5 exec style but high animation and low range, requires a stun - often times it's not there). A well-practiced opponent will know how to survive / dodge our stuns, etc. The lack of range from class mechanic fails and the immune sprint does very little after some chase, except it's a escape mechanism running for pots.

I believe the data collected is proper and the class mechanics above reflect our frustration.

nezraal · October 2014

notsheriffsrs wrote: »

lol you guys are SO bad.

Did any of you even run Indimidation?

You can place two GWF's at a point and they can 1-rotation an entire team.

The fact that you lost against 4 CONTROL WIZARDS (GWF with Intimidation currently DESTROYS a CW, even without Indimitation they still beat them) tells me you do not deserve your gear and you are pathetic players.

GWF is perfectly balanced right now. ONLY TAKEDOWN NEEDS ITS PRONE BACK. That's it.

We ran against different team and different makeups. Evident from the screenshots all our gears are on standard and do not break barriers (3 of us were destroyer and 2 sentinel, but with higher hp and standard tenacity gear, etc).

1. Standard Sentinel do not carry 8k Power. 35% on the fear with say 5.5k Power and tanky build - there is no real damage. Glass cannon build is too squishy and not viable for the path. The best route for mod5 will be destroyer (perma runner or exec style with FLS) and ahead of instigator.

2. THE ONLY PRONE IN TAKEDOWN - IS A BIG FACTOR and a GAME CHANGER. Think about it and developers don't realize it and unwilling to give it to us. The workarounds are insufficient. If you see the Instigator Tree re-work, it reflects how little they know.

I am not trying to give anyone a hard time, or arrogant or rude, etc. or criticizing other classes. I am just saying my class needs to be worked on to be truly viable for mod5 and there needs to be sufficient change and re-evaluation for a proper balance. I apologize to anyone, who feels otherwise.

darkinght1 · October 2014

my gwf no have problem in pvp,i get good results even if my team loses.. but the hr melee almost always kill me, they do too much damage, are very fast and most annoying is that regenerate hp like crazy.. the most frustrating is that many times are very low hp, attack me and within seconds are full hp and i died.. the most funny is when they have all their artifacts/weapon in legendary and 20k or more gs (never die), what i mean is that my gwf has no chance vs hr (regenman)

i really have fun in pvp but when there is a "RegenMan" i only get a lot of stress and frustration

this is my gwf still under construction

cw die fast
tr sometimes are a problema
just try to keep them on the floor and see how die

PD: i hate regenmans

nezraal · October 2014

darkinght1 wrote: »

my gwf no have problem in pvp,i get good results even if my team loses.. but the hr melee almost always kill me, they do too much damage, are very fast and most annoying is that regenerate hp like crazy.. the most frustrating is that many times are very low hp, attack me and within seconds are full hp and i died.. the most funny is when they have all their artifacts/weapon in legendary and 20k or more gs (never die), what i mean is that my gwf has no chance vs hr (regenman)

i really have fun in pvp but when there is a "RegenMan" i only get a lot of stress and frustration

this is my gwf still under construction

cw die fast
tr sometimes are a problema
just try to keep them on the floor and see how die

PD: i hate regenmans

CW die fast ? You have no idea what you are talking about. We are or were not running against "pugs". It's boring to run vs. pugs, getting a 35-0 in a pug game is routine work for any of us, in our group.

Your GWF is behind all our GWF. I am the weakest in the group. You would barely last in high-level premade, As a suggestion I would highly suggest to improve your DR%. 20 CON with 38k HP GWF and low ARP, this build has too many problems already The RI% needs to be at-least 36% (40% recommended!) bare minimum and hp 40k+ (50k recommended, some even go 60k hp) before even calling your build viable.. Being the weakest GWF of the group your build won't touch 50% of my hp, I guarantee it. I would suggest purchasing a class re-roll token and aim for a 29 CON. That's the basic. One day, you will be able to understand my post better.

darkinght1 · October 2014

my gwf was only pve but now i want to be good at pvp and i need race reroll..but i no have problems with exception of hr melee

nezraal · October 2014

@darknight1 - well then let's keep the discussion on pvp and the responses constructive so the development team can do some proper evaluation of our complaints.

magiquepurse · October 2014

You actually wanted to beat Choco Shoppe with their best CWs and GWf all stacked with reds etc. and playing since open beta...

... with a PUG?

Won't work.

You killed Allt once though.

That is better than winning 15 pug games, gz.

nezraal · October 2014

magiquepurse wrote: »

You actually wanted to beat Choco Shoppe with their best CWs and GWf all stacked with reds etc. and playing since open beta...

... with a PUG?

Won't work.

It's also true, that my GS is a bit low running at 18.5k and rest of the 4 GWF are 20k-21k GS. However, premade are suppose to be only 20k+ GS?

AGAIN , read carefully not criticizing any class. We did 4 PvP against 4 different premade. If red glyph stacked has a problem that's for the developers to figure out. My thread presents facts and problems GWF are facing. To say destroyer does not work, means destroyer is a non-viable class ? And sentinel on 35% feat damage on a standard 5.5k power and high hp in mod 5 is still viable ? Do you play GWF or tried results on preview?

If you are admitting CW are meant to be OP on red glyph, then I suppose that's a problem

but I don't play CW, like you do and I am not here to criticize other classes. My concern remains on GWF.

magiquepurse · October 2014

nezraal wrote: »

It's also true, that my GS is a bit low running at 18.5k and rest of the 4 GWF are 20k-21k GS. However, premade are suppose to be only 20k+ GS?

AGAIN , read carefully not criticizing any class. We did 4 PvP against 4 different premade. If red glyph stacked has a problem that's for the developers to figure out. My thread presents facts and problems GWF are facing. To say destroyer does not work, means destroyer is a non-viable class ? And sentinel on 35% feat damage on a standard 5.5k power and high hp in mod 5 is still viable ? Do you play GWF or tried results on preview?

The CS GWF you see in the your pic rolls 10K Power Senti in PvP and one-shots CWs. If you run against a team with reds and yours doesn't wear them, you're dead. Some classes make better use of these glyphs. GWF is not one of them, CW is.

Troll comps are not that good. You lack a proper interceptor (such as a CW), a backcapper (such as a perma), a healer, a KV GF etc.

You were set to lose.

Unless you specced all Senti with 10K Power and synchronized Intimidation procs. Who knows, maybe you would have stood some decent chance, those CWs would have melted instantly lol.

nezraal · October 2014

macjae wrote: »

The one match you provide a screenshot from, you ran into a team of very good players, all of whom have been fairly well-known PvP players for a long time. And they had a troll composition of their own; one which will receive a few substantial upcoming nerfs against GWFs in any case, once red glyphs are fixed. So that means they were probably more skilled and were running with stuff that will be nerfed soon.

Second, this is obviously not valid as a test, since it's in your interest to lose to provide evidence for your stance. Anyone can get five friends together, play with a group composed of a single class, lose games, and proclaim the class is the issue.

Third, running a full troll composition is not necessarily a good test of how well-balanced a class is. You say three of you were destroyers, which means you were not running the Intimidation build, which would have much better team synergy. In a proper composition, a GWF will fulfill particular roles; without class variety, that leaves GWFs trying to do things they are not good at. (And that goes for most classes; they tend to fulfill somewhat different roles, so you can't generally expect five of a kind to be better than a royal flush here.)

GWFs currently struggle with a few things; other classes being able to take better advantage of glyphs (will be fixed; GWFs will become relatively much tankier at that point), HRs in particular (which handily beats every other class 1v1) and GFs to some extent.

This thread by and large proves absolutely nothing.

Then perhaps, with your knowledge you can answer the following:

1. HR vs. GWF - same GS - 1v1 holding flag on one end - who win ?
2. TR vs. GWF - same GS - harassing opponent flag to keep score in check - who win? (mod5 stealth being taken away for more damage)
3. CW burst power and control more survivable in middle or carefully position - who win?
4. GF vs GWF - middle or any other flag node who win?

I am a little lost, where GWF is suppose to be. And what true advantages it can hold other than playing hit & run, since it can't face tank (as off tank), can't damage because of low range and high dodges from dps classes (HR/CW,etc). As a melee can we start by putting the class on-par with a HR / TR & GF with same GS? It doesn't take this post to prove that, it's common knowledge. How come, no one talks about them and **** talks - "look at IBS", "what you have immune free sprint", etc.

I know I am sounding like the bad guy here, and I was expecting these responses or harassment - but I believe the problems I am listing with GWF class mechanics is very real and the developers need to re-evaluate our feats and effects.

nezraal · October 2014

magiquepurse wrote: »

The CS GWF you see in the your pic rolls 10K Power Senti in PvP and one-shots CWs. If you run against a team with reds and yours doesn't wear them, you're dead. Some classes make better use of these glyphs. GWF is not one of them, CW is.

Troll comps are not that good. You lack a proper interceptor (such as a CW), a backcapper (such as a perma), a healer, a KV GF etc.

You were set to lose.

Unless you specced all Senti with 10K Power and synchronized Intimidation procs. Who knows, maybe you would have stood some decent chance, those CWs would have melted instantly lol.

If you haven't read what I wrote earlier on glass cannon sentinel, do you know what it takes to hit 10k power on sentinel? And do you know how easily CAGI & DS can easily be dodged with the HIGH CD? A step ahead of you buddy.

osterdrache · October 2014

I like the attempt, but its actual value is very minor.
If you played against five premades a huge factor for success and failure is coordination, communication and individual skill.
For example did u guys use voice com to coordinate ur stuns and dailies? To rotate fast and switch if necessary?

Did you guys realize that ur team consists of a class, that cant abuse glyphs like others?

I know some of the shown players and they are decent. On the other hand, I only see one DC artifact in the whole group. Which is super strong for gwfs. I also see one guy using the dragon artifact as an active (really?) and one with ravenskull (its so bad…)

These bad artifact choices might reflect the understanding of premade gameplay as well. No offense, but against good premade even one player, who doesnt really know what to do will loose the game for the entire team.

I play a gwf myself. The class is not a faceroll class anymore. You need tactics and coordination, and the knowledge how to use an offtank/burst class to the teams advantage.

GWF could recieve some minor buffs (give takedown its prone back!!!) but its not in that dire situation as ur thead might suggest.

crixus8000 · October 2014

You fought some top pvp cw players from chocolate shoppe. Them guys are very OP and skilled too, I have beaten them a few times and I have lost a lot to them. Always a very, very challenging game fighting them and the only way to win is with much skill and teamwork. I see too many gwf players still smashing buttons and charging in head first. The way to show it properly is with a vid so everyone can see it clearly. I'm not saying your bad, I have never played you but skill is just as important as gs so to understand the issue I think a vid is needed.

magiquepurse · October 2014

nezraal wrote: »

If you haven't read what I wrote earlier on glass cannon sentinel, do you know what it takes to hit 10k power on sentinel? And do you know how easily CAGI & DS can easily be dodged with the HIGH CD? A step ahead of you buddy.

Up to you if you wanna use it. You can have 10K Power and be tanky

Also you can maybe dodge one combo, but when 2-3 GWFs are spamming it, you are doomed to die.

rashylewizz · October 2014

Do you have pictures of the other losses?

You guys only showed a loss to one of the top-2 PVP guilds on the server Chocolate Shoppe.

Please remember that there is a BIG skill, experience and familiarity difference between your random team and their A-team

adamy2004 · October 2014

nezraal wrote: »

(Nub of the team, NezRaaL [myself])

The Result

We lost all 4 poorly, very poorly.

1st - 1000-2

2nd - 1000-210

3rd - 1000-50

4th - 1000-310

My handle is nezraal and you can check my PvP log.

All the results came against DIFFERENT RANDOM teams.

Evident from one of the results, we died like no one's business. We tried different strategies from harassing nodes, standing on flag points, etc. Nothing really worked. So I urge Cryptic, instead of looking at 1 or 2 youtube videos, incorrect feedback and results evaluate this class. We are significantly behind. At least one prone is a must, Destro tree needs more survival (we get cc even before we start), sentinel lack any kind of burst and a lot of our attacks can be dodged and takes high animation time. Relaying the frustrations I feel when running premades which are echoed by a lot of GWF from time to time, who primarily play this class. Glass sentinel is weaker than destro and a solid sentinel on high defense hp has no damage. The new instigator path is a bad joke, compared to the Destro, no point elaborating on it.

Conclusion

We took an effort to make a team, run PvP and show data. This is what the reality is, running GWF in PvP when running against solid opponents. I urge the Cryptic development team to re-consider our damage, our CC and our defense to make it a solid and viable class for PvP, as for the way it stands right now - in team vs team or 1 vs 1 against a solid opponent (in most occasion) GWF's current position is unacceptable.

I understand that a lot of people will be saying you need to mix team, or some people will be making fun of us but the results ? Not even once could we not achieve a score of 330 (1/3rd or 33% of the score in 4 PvP all random teams) ? Is this acceptable? Will you now pay attention to our feedback and complaints ? Again I urge that our efforts for collecting data is not overlooked. We were hoping for a more balanced mod5 and judging by the change, I fear for the worst. On behalf of all GWF I hope our class mechanics will be re-evaluated to play this class in PVP as a viable option.

So, you are asking for a buff for a class, because you lost to a 4 cw + 1 gwf comp. each of those players completely maxed and the best on the server. yeah nice logic

bvira · October 2014

1000-2
Of course you lost! You were against Chocolate Shopped full premade, not a "random team".

bvira · October 2014

If you're making a 5 DC team, then you'd lose every single match, but it doesn't mean DCs are useless. Your "experiment" is severely flawed.

effectenstein · October 2014

and not to say alot of premades players use pots to increase their stats .. so yeah.. your "experiment" is a failure right from the start. it's not about OP, it's about the role you have in a team.

koalazebra1 · October 2014

adamy2004 wrote: »

best on the server. yeah nice logic

how do you claim someone as best on the server with all the sh*t going around. wow this game is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>!!!!!!!!

marnival · October 2014

If you're making a 5 DC team, then you'd lose every single match, but it doesn't mean DCs are useless. Your "experiment" is severely flawed.

He never said useless he said lacking in comparison toward other classes why you would put dc as an example only proves your argument is seriously flawed if anything.

and not to say alot of premades players use pots to increase their stats .. so yeah.. your "experiment" is a failure right from the start. it's not about OP, it's about the role you have in a team.

Ok lets put 5 20 k gs hrs and see what happens or 5 20 k gfs or 5 20k cws I cant imagen they would fail as badly as a matter of fact am pretty sure 5 hr would **** most teams.

Ofc the set up against what teams they are fighting and if they use glyphs or not matters greatly but with that equippment and being well versed in pvp it is not compleatly without a point.

As well in pve as in pvp i would rather have a 20k cw hr or gf in my party to a gwf as most team would. In pve you can put sw in there as well.

The example is far from perfect but it still carries a point non the less. Gwfs as it is now and even more so when nerf incomming do lack toward both hr and cw and I would say gfs in pvp.

rashylewizz · October 2014

marnival wrote: »

Ok lets put 5 20 k gs hrs and see what happens or 5 20 k gfs or 5 20k cws I cant imagen they would fail as badly as a matter of fact am pretty sure 5 hr would **** most teams.

5 no-name CWs or 5 no-name HRs would get blown out by Chocolate Shoppe's A-team just so you know

notsheriffsrs · October 2014

rashylewizz wrote: »

5 no-name CWs or 5 no-name HRs would get blown out by Chocolate Shoppe's A-team just so you know

lol why do you brown nose that guild in all of your posts?

It's getting pathetic, have some dignity.

notsheriffsrs · October 2014

nezraal wrote: »

(3 of us were destroyer)

Will repeat this again.

This is your problem.

hypervoreian · October 2014

Other thing to notice which most overlooked is that Chocolate Shoppe chose a comp of 4 Cws and one melee to go.
I said in the past rearding the CW OPnes that his potential as a class increase dramatically when team up with another CW or CWs.
No other combination can kill so fast.

Defence is this case is highly irrelevant.The CW range spell and the class combo provides defence.The CWs focus on an enemy by far finish him in seconds and then the battle is 4 vs 5.One CW or one of the melees distracts and slows the enemy and the cws focus one one again 3 vs 5.And that goes on and one.Game lost probably to fallen moral.By 300-20 or 300-50 all stay in campfire.

Some said five 5HRs or 5 Trs etc.plain wrong.
The Nezraal team might lost (might) to a 5 HR combination but it would put a desent fight.It would take a lot of time to kill 5 BiS GWFs who can sprint evade focus etc.It would be a close matchup and as concerning skill ,i think the GWFs might won after all.
But against a 3-4 CW BiS combo there is really NOTHING you can do.

The damage output and the control of the mod4 CW is unmatched by any class.If the Cws manages to stay out of range (using the CW combo and a meatshiled GWF/GF for distraction) are invulnerable.

rashylewizz · October 2014

notsheriffsrs wrote: »

lol why do you brown nose that guild in all of your posts?

It's getting pathetic, have some dignity.

If OP had posted a picture of them getting blown out by Absolute's A-team, I would've said the same thing. Or possibly one of EOA's teams.

I give guilds the respect they deserve skill-wise. I don't know what you have against any of those guilds in particular but its best if you bring it up with them personally. I am not affiliated with any of them nor do I want to be bogged down with the drama between those guilds.

5 GWF PvP 20k GS - why a lot of players have switched or complain

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